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Minimizing Your Lag When Playing Brawl Online (Updated 01.21.08 Wii VGA Cable Info)

Sai Winner of Games

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New parts are in yellow.

I thought it would be a good idea to inform the community of ways to reduce the latency that will inevitably come with online play. People say online is going to lag and suck, but it really does not have to if you and your friends fix your lag (and are somewhat close). (I tried to bold the important parts, because I know people will not read all of it.)

For those of you who do not know, for our purposes, latency (measured in milliseconds or ms) is the time it takes for a packet of data sent from one point to get to an other point, basically lag. Assuming Brawl has is played at 60 frames per second (fps) like Melee, each frame lasts 1/60 of a second or about 17 ms. So <17 ms total latency would give an ideal Smash playing environment. Now, you could probably play with more than that, but for very precise moves (power shielding, teching, really fast combos , etc.) much more than 17 ms would cause trouble. Also, if you adjust to time everything with a 50 ms latency, when you play in your room with much less latency your timing might be considerably off.

1) Latency from Distance

Information can only pass between points as fast as light can travel between those points, in most situations signals do not even reach that ideal speed. For a copper wire, the speed of the signal is the speed of the electromagnetic field through the wire, which should be about 1.2*10^8 ms (in theory). For a fiber optic cable, the speed of the signal is the same as the speed the photons will travel through it, which should be about 2*10^8 m/s (in theory). I will leave out the details about how I got those numbers. I suggest that everyone who really wants to play people online, get some form of fiber optic internet connection (like Verizon FiOS) even though its uncertain exactly what your signal is going through or if it really has lower latency, because of the theoretical speed difference. If you want to do the calculations, its also important to consider that the wires will not be in straight lines when calculating the latency, however below I explained a simpler way to estimate the latency from distance and internet hardware, which should be sufficient for smash purposes.

Map of FiOS availability in the US.

2) Latency from Internet Hardware
I do not have exact numbers for this, but for my laptop, connecting to a network wirelessly has more latency, enough to hinder good smash play most likely, compared to connecting with an ethernet cord. The Wii LAN Adapter should help reduce latency by letting you connect with an ethernet cord. Also connecting directly to your modem (bypassing your router) may reduce a small amount lag. If you are using wireless, you may want to consider not using encryption. Decoding an encrypted wireless packet may add to the latency, so turning off your wireless network's encryption while you play may also reduce some lag.

3) Latency from Video Conversion
Changing between digital and analog signals can add to latency. For example, using a HDTV and playing Wii with a analog cable can add to latency if your TV is trying to scale the signal to look better on your TV. Some HDTVs have the option to disable digital processing, which reduces lag overall (use this, even though it may look worse). Also if you have some kind of adapter that converts your signal, that may also add to latency.

4) Latency from Video Hardware
Most normal TVs using the analog Wii connecting cables should have <5 ms latency. A lot of HDTVs are known to have up to 20 ms or more of lag. If you want to play Brawl in widescreen 480p, there a few options. A low latency monitor with component input like any of these should work. If you want something a bit cheaper, you could get a monitor with little lag but no component input like these and get a component to VGA converter (like the X2vga, Vd-z3, or KD-XB). Keep in mind this will probably add a bit of lag, but will bring the cost down a lot. I am looking into finding the exact number for the latency these converters cause. If you have to get a HDTV, get an LCD TV like these. There is a somewhat new 3rd party cable that connects the Wii directly to any monitor with a VGA connection (its basically like the converters above, but in a cable form). It could be a cheap solution for playing in 480p. However, its practicality will depend on how much lag it produces and the lag of monitors available to you.

5) Other Forms of Latency
Maybe, there are other forms of latency. There is probably a bit more latency using the wireless wiimote/wavebird (around 1 ms?) versus plugging in a wired gamecube controller (should be negligable). Since the difference is so small, I suggest not to worry about the controller, and use whichever is best for you.


Finding out your Smash Latency to different places

Smash Latency: The time it takes for a signal to travel from your opponent's Wii to your Wii to that your TV plus the time it takes for a signal to travel from your controller to your Wii to your opponent's Wii again. The reason I chose to define it like this is, because this can be directly compared to the time interval you have to respond to do a certain action.

Sum the latency in each of these:
  • The time it takes for a signal to travel from your Wii to your opponent's Wii AND BACK to your Wii (considers distance and internet hardware)(this should be same as the result from the ping to your opponent from below)
  • Your Monitor/TV (should be < 5 ms, if you set it up right)
  • Your Controller (should be negligible, unless its a wireless controller, even then it should be small)
  • Your Additional Things (like converters)

A rough estimate from the math (using the speed of the signals to find the latency from distance) suggests that a good match will be possible within 500 km and a decent match will be possible within 2500 km. However, there are factors that are difficult to take into account of when finding lag from distance so its better to use the method below.

Finding the time it takes for a signal to travel from your Wii to your opponent's Wii AND BACK to your Wii: (based on ShortFuse's suggestion to use ping)
  • Press Windows Key + R (opens run)
  • Type "cmd /k ping ___" and press Enter (opens the command prompt and pings your target), where ___ is the IP address of your target (your opponent or a server you know the location of)(doesn't work if you have a firewall)
Your IP adress is:

This will give you an average latency when can be used above to find your Smash Latency. An easier way would be to go to a website that finds latencies, ex: http://www.speedtest.net/ (this website gives a general idea, but some pings are unreasonable; the direct ping probably has much better accuracy).

I think it would be a good idea if someone could put together a some kind of web tool to let smashboards members ping each other, maybe written in Java or something. It would be helpful to know who you can play before you start the battle Its sort of hassle to ping everyone you want to play.


Interpreting the Smash Latency


I defined the Smash Latency so that it is directly comparable the amount of time you have to do a certain action. Just compare the amount of time you have to do a certain technique to the Smash Latency. If the latency is more, then you will likely have trouble with it, and if it is less then you will be able to do the technique as you do normally. For example, if a technique needs 1 frame of precision, and your smash latency is more than 1 frame (about 17 ms), its likely that you will find this technique difficult to do RELATIVE TO DOING THE MOVE WITH CLOSE TO ZERO SMASH LATENCY.

This does not mean its impossible to adjust to the lag and do that technique, however if the Smash Latency changes (if you are playing a different opponent online or playing locally), then you will have to readjust to that amount of lag. The most game breaking issue will likely be inconstant latencies in the same battle. It will be difficult to guess how much to compensate for the lag when its changing significantly during the battle.

Let clarifying some things:
  • Bandwidth is not latency, and they are usually unrelated. It does not matter how many KB/s or MB/s your connection has. Latency is related to how fast the signal gets somewhere, while bandwidth is related to how much data gets somewhere in some time.
  • Smash Latency or Ping vary depending on the location of your opponent, so its meaningless to say my ping is ___ or my latency is ___ unless you specify where that is to.



Questions, Answers, and Comments

wouldn't shorter tags help out?
Shorter tags would just reduce the bandwidth it takes to send each packet, not the latency, which are usually unrelated.

What about Satelite?
(assuming you meant satellite internet)
No, it won't work. The signal has to travel very far, so the latency is too high.

cheapest options
The cheapest setup will probably be something like:
- Essentials (Wii, Brawl, a controller)
- Almost any fat TV (im assuming everyone already has one)
- Fiber Optic Internet (FiOS seems to be about $30-$40/month for the basic plans, however it is not available everywhere, but hopefully it will be common in populated areas in the future)
- Wii LAN Adapter ($30)
- Ethernet cable (if you dont already have one, $5)


is it recommended to play brawl on a computer monitor...?
To clarify, you do not need a monitor to play Brawl. A normal fat TV should not have too much lag (<5 ms). But if you want to use the component cable and get the digital widescreen signal from the Wii, you will probably need a monitor (unless you find a HDTV with little lag). See above for details.

I have a bit of a dilemma, I can choose to hook my wii up directly to my router to reduce lag, but then I have to use my HDTV in that room, or I can go wireless with a normal sdtv which is better ( which will lag less)?
I would suggest get a super long ethernet cord and run it to the sdtv. You could test to see how much more lag the wireless connection causes than the wired connection with a ping to see if it really makes a difference if you want to make sure.

How much ping would you say that would cause brawl to become super laggy "Unplayable"
It is probably too soon to say now, since we don't know how much precision the techniques need to have to execute well. I would guess for competitive battles, people would want within 20 ms maybe up to 40 so they don't get adjusted to laggy battles so they can go to tournaments or play with other competitive friends.

I bet most people will be running around spamming B moves and chasing after items until a smash ball pops up, so they probably would not notice much lag unless there are huge spikes.
 

Galt

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I live down the hall from that guy. Our latency will be like... -2 ms. Except Sai has built-in latency of, like, 30 ms. So 28 ms, I suppose.
 

PilotEvan

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A lot of advice, but unfortunately little can be done realistically if one hasn't already met many of the requirements. The only one I would say that's really "doable" would be the Wii LAN Adapter, and it may be something I'll consider myself if issues arise.
 

SiD

Smash Master
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Well this is an awesome topic, thank you for taking the time out to do these calculations and help us understand better.

Pretty sure this was the best first post any noob has ever had.
 

cultofrubik

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This thread just plain owns. Sai, you kick so much ***. Thank you for posting something much more in depth than my suggestion of the obvious wired connection to help reduce latency. Absolutely love it.

~Peace
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Whoa, I don't know where you came from, but this thread should be stickied!
 

asun

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Sep 18, 2007
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What about Satelite?

Can you give me numbers for that?
you don't ever want to use a satellite connection for anything where you need a quick response time. the latency of the hop to a satellite is around 200ms and the same amount back. as a result, you will have about a .5s latency.
 

LavisFiend

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you don't ever want to use a satellite connection for anything where you need a quick response time. the latency of the hop to a satellite is around 200ms and the same amount back. as a result, you will have about a .5s latency.
It's not like I had any choice in the matter. I live in the boondocks so to speak, so it's all we could really get...

It will lag, sure, but it should be fine if the person I play with is 5-10 miles close by right?
 

Tanvis

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The only problem I have is that I use a wired Ethernet cable at a University, which needs your computer to have its software on it to use its internet, none of which the Wii can have. Thus I have to use the "Dongle" or the Wifi enabling USB device. So, I'm sure that won't be too much of a problem...I hope.
 

asun

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It's not like I had any choice in the matter. I live in the boondocks so to speak, so it's all we could really get...

It will lag, sure, but it should be fine if the person I play with is 5-10 miles close by right?
i'm sorry you don't have access to a better connection :(. it really depends upon how your satellite connection is hooked up. if your connection is like the following, you're pretty much out of luck:
Code:
you ----- satellite ----- friend
if it's like the following though, you should be okay:
Code:
you ----- local ISP  ----- friend
             |
             | 
          satellite
take home message: if you're using an actual satellite dish, your latency is going to be pretty bad. one way of figuring this all out empirically is to just run a ping test from a pc to your friend's IP address (assuming your friend allows ICMP packets). you'll get a response back that tells you the average packet latency.
 

Lumancer

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Bravo sir, excellent work in outlining all of this! I'm very impressed by the amount of work you put here and thank you profusely for donating your time to all of us whining "how lagz it gonna bez?" people- admittedly, myself included. *pats head*

Good show!
 

Spinach Ops™

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Who else thinks there should be a thread made just for exchanging Wii numbers? That way when Brawl comes out well see who really is the best....... I know im not the only one that thinks no one can beat me.

Wii #3702 6501 1458 8241
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Who else thinks there should be a thread made just for exchanging Wii numbers? That way when Brawl comes out well see who really is the best....... I know im not the only one that thinks no one can beat me.

Wii #3702 6501 1458 8241
First off, there already is a thread for exchanging Wii numbers (aside from the fact that it is in practically everyone's profile). Second, you are not familiar with friend codes, are you? Your friend code will be unique to your copy of Brawl, so your Wii # may end up meaning nothing for this endeavor. Go rent Mario Strikers Charged to see what I mean.
 

behemoth

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Fiber optic line, eh?

I'm a tech guy, we should try to lay out the cheapest options for every one of those steps you mention (as is, cheapest generalized way to get fiber optic, cheapest reliable monitor/tv with optional digital processing). I have school today till 2pm, but if it's still not done then, I'll get on it.
 

san-romanov

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Just what I was looking for, a thread which explains how to minimize lag. there are just posts like "wifi sucks" instead of fixing the problem. aah , by the way, ¿when the ethernet kit is release????
 

Timat the Slayer

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Great thread. Thanks for doing all the equations and (possible) research into this. I'll be sure to keep this thread in mind when I decide to jump online for a few matches.
 

watomsk

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Great information here, thanks for doing this =D!

I really don't think there will be big issues when playing with someone from the same continent anyways. And i don't have many friends from outside the country...

The only thing that i hope is that playing With Anyone is actually restricted to the continent(or at lest have this option).
 

GKirby

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I own a Wifi usb connector. I wonder what kind of connection i'd get. My DS gets the hole 4 green bars... and my wii is like 1 foot away from it.
 

Ryudragon29

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The wires really do affect the connection? That's nice to know, does it affect negatively too if you a bunch of wires clumped together? Oh and I doubt anyone here have a Wii just next to their computer. :p My VG TV is in the same room as my computer though.

Thanks for the advice because I noticed that I lagged a little too much when on the internet on my DS.
 

behemoth

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Wires clumped together physically won't matter, but you could see some lag once going through hubs and routers on your way to the modem. How much you would see depends on the quality of said routers and hubs.

Theoretically there is a drop in quality in a line longer than 25 - 30 feet, but you would likely not notice on anything shorter than 50 ft.
 

Red Exodus

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This isn't good, judging by your post, I won't even be able to play people in florida [closest US state to me] without having bad lag. I live in Barbados, I don't know how far I am from Florida but I know it's more than 2500km for sure.

I wonder if google has an estimate. I'll go check.


What do you know, I'm 2570km/1600 miles from orlando florida -.- No playing against New yorkers for me.
 

cyberdemon

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Fiber optic internet is not an option for me. How much more lag does copper wires have compared to fiber optic?
 

Randofu

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This thread is pretty good, but there are other factors that can affect lag. For instance, you (almost certainly) aren't going to be connecting to your friend along a straight line, so you would need to account for how much your network path differs from a great circle path. Also, I admit I don't know much about FiOS, but I'm guessing that there's some latency involved in putting packets on the wire (as far as I can tell, this is a big source of latency in Cable and DSL networks). Also, this ignores jitter. I don't know how jittery FiOS is, but getting a steady stream of low latency responses is just as important for lag as minimizing your latency.

I still believe that FiOS is probably the best option. I'm just saying that your distances may be a little too optimistic. Still, it's really good to see a positive thread about the impending lag problem. :)
 

ShortFuse

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You should add this to the first post
Start,
Run,
cmd /k ping www.google.com

I have a 30mbps connection but since on my laptop and far from my Wireless Access Point (router), my average ms latency is 137ms. Yeah, that's a lot. My speed is fine on my laptop. I use 802.11n but it's high lag.

137ms is average. Sometimes it peaks at 245ms. It would make Smash unplayable online. And this is pinging google.com which should be fast. Compared to when I'm connected to my network switch (read router) with a network cable, the latency (lag) is <0.5ms. Yeah, that's fast. I'm getting a Lan adapter for my Wii.
 

Randofu

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And this is pinging google.com which should be fast.
Before people ask how far this person is from Google, you should know that Google serves up pages from many places spread all over the world. He's right that pinging Google is a decent test to get an idea of what the lower bound on your lag is to the average player. You may be able to get faster latencies if you specifically look for people who share your ISP, but even then it's questionable.
 

FireWater

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Eh I should test this out, I should probably get a LAN connector before brawl comes out to test the latency.

I know there is a difference between a hardline and a wi fi, but how much of a difference would there be?
 

CT Chia

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this is really interesting seeing a take on latency instead of bandwidth for playing online, but something seems off about it. while it does make some sense, i cant imagine being in the same city as someone better than someone in the same state. afterall, when in the same city, your not connection directly to ur friends comp, so its not like 5 miles or whatever, but you have to calculate the distance the information travels from your computer to your ISPs center of operations, then to your friends computer, if your on the same ISP. while that makes a lil more sense for your distance latency explanation, i still doubt it works like that. the internet is wired and routed in ways we done know, and is probably a hell of a long way to travel even if you live next door to someone. i personally dont think it will lag and it will instead all be based on bandwidth issues. just buy an adapter to have a wired connection on your wii, or if u need wireless, make sure you have full signal on a fast connection with little interference. itl be fine.
 
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