Mii Legality Thread

[Camalange]

It's a long, windy road of controversy, but as the Smash 4 Back Room, I think it's important we all test ourselves with this case.

As far as I can tell, there are three stances on this topic. Each one will be separated in the OP, followed by quotes that provide pros and cons for each viewpoint.

Full Legalization of Miis (Let Mii Play)

Full Banning of Miis

Miis Limited to a "default" set (1111)

Mii's Limited to an "optimal" set (predetermined set)

We are currently playing in a non-customs standard. I would like to refrain from this boiling down to a topic that discusses customs legality as a whole, so please try to stay on track. It is obviously assumed that in a customs format, there is no reason to ban or limit Miis.

EVO's current stance: Miis Limited to a "default" set (1111)
http://evo.shoryuken.com/additional-rules/

 

[NickRiddle]

Miis being legal, for me, tie into customs.

Either everything from the Customization menu is banned, or everything, barring equipment, is legal from the Customization menu.

 

[Zigsta]

I personally don't understand why the standard 1111 Miis aren't allowed. They're far from breaking the game by any means. What are the arguments for banning them outright?

 

[NickRiddle]

I personally don't understand why the standard 1111 Miis aren't allowed. They're far from breaking the game by any means. What are the arguments for banning them outright?

Mii players usually don't like that they're "limited"

 

[Marc]

Full Legalization of Miis (Let Mii Play)
-Setting one up takes about as long as setting up controls.
-Everything they have is unlocked by default (this does extend to Palutena...).
-You need to set one up to have it exist in the first place.

Full Banning of Miis
-Miis don't exist by default.
-Potential for Hitler vs Jesus and other things we don't want on streams.

Miis Limited to a "default" set (1111)
-When you create a Mii, you are never forced to select moves. It will default to 1111 if you don't go in the submenu.

 

[Marc]

Also, there is the option of having Miis locked into community voted "optimal" sets. I think it's a fairly bad compromise, but it has been done several times.

 

[Gunla]

Here's my info sheet on Mii Fighters (might edit some of these into the OP):

Here's a few things to know about Miis:

• All Mii Fighters of a type share the same normals regardless of size. However, size has an effect on endlag in moves.
  • 50/50 size, the arguable standard, has no global changes to endlag. Some tools are laggy, others are pretty good. Mobility is moderate.
  • 0/0 has ~4 less frames on nearly every move, making many of their moves and tactics hard to punish. Amazing mobility.
  • 100/100 has ~4 more frames on nearly every move, which makes the heavy Miis likely the worst characters in the game. Really, really bad mobility.
• All Guest Mii sizes are 50/50, meaning that you do not need external sources/Mii Maker to make Miis. This is the case regardless of setup/Mii sets.
• Mii creation, regardless of setup or sets, takes about the same time (as alternate specials and numerical characters are next to each other), which is about 20-30 seconds if you're doing it at near speed run level. About the same time as setting up control.
• The most commonly used Mii Brawler sets are 2122 and 1122. Mii Gunners and Mii Swordfighters generally don't have a consensus (since they don't have moves that are outright superior to other variants), though I've seen Gunners use 3312 and 3322 quite a bit.
• If the Customs Wrench is off, then Equipment is disabled. Miis with Equipment are reverted to base stats.

The most common Mii rulesets:

• 1111: Miis are set to 50/50 size, and must use 1111.
• Full Set Mid: Miis are set to 50/50 size, and can use any moveset. Doesn't really account for special switching mid-set.
• Full Set Mid Lock: Miis are locked to one set of specials per tournament set, but are set to Full Set Mid. If you switch Mii types, you can use a different set of specials. Sometimes, some tournaments limit you to 1 Mii per tournament set altogether.
• One Set Mid: Mii Fighters are locked to one moveset each in the entire tournament, decided before the event. Traditionally, Brawlers will get 1122, 2122 or 3122, whereas Gunners and Swordfighters don’t really have a commonly used moveset so it’s often in the air.
• EVO Sets: Uses Official Custom Moveset Project 2015 Sets.
• Banned: Mii Fighters are not selectable.
• "Gray Area": When tournaments don't have rulings for it and a Mii Fighter shows up at their door.

Things to know about Mii Brawler from my own experience:

• Size marginally affects air control, meaning that kill setups on 0/0 generally turn into yolo setups on 50/50 or 100/100 that will kill both you and your opponent if done right.
• Brawler has true combos with D-Throw -> Fair -> HK at middle percents with 0/0. With 50/50, it's one or the other at low%s, and HK kills if you properly read DThrow retaliation.
• 1111 leaves Brawler with a few kill moves, but the vast majority are laggy and easily punishable, which explains his current status on the tier list. Onslaught (Side 1) can be SDI'd out of, Shotput doesn't kill till ~160, Axe Kick is basically Aether, And Head-On Assault kills offstage with yolo reads, but otherwise it's basically Yoshi Bomb. Fsmash kills around 90 at ledge, but is laggy and punishable if thrown out liberally.
• 2122 gives Brawler more KO options. In addition to Ultimate Uppercut being a move that kills at ~100% if fully charged, Helicopter Kick is present. Feint Jump also gives Brawler a decent recovery, though it can be punished if you opponent reads it right.
• Brawler's Nair is basically a Mario Nair, with nearly identical frames (albeit Mario's has a slightly better FAF). Still comes out Frame 3.
• 100/100 Brawler is bad. Heavy, slow, big target, still gets outranged. Likely one of the worst characters in the game.
• Brawler loses to characters with quicker startups than it, and characters that outrange it. 0/0 features more extreme matchups (either beating certain characters harder or losing matchups on a much more noticeable level) while 50/50 has a bit of a more balanced MU spread thanks to the extra range.

-Potential for Hitler vs Jesus and other things we don't want on streams.

Fortunately, the way that things work out now, this is a situation that is very rare. Default Miis/Pre-loaded setups usually consisting of default Miis are used. Alternatively, if the Wii U is clean of questionable Miis, then it's also prevented further.

That being said, it does make them a tad generic if they're just the Guest Mii cosmetics. I'd be for using a standardized Mii that actually looks decent, like Nikki from Swapnote or something.

Also, there is the option of having Miis locked into community voted "optimal" sets. I think it's a fairly bad compromise, but it has been done several times.

This is my personal pick as a Brawler player for what I want most. Brawler has a pretty clear optimal set, being 2122 (or 1122). However, the issue comes in with Gunners and Swordfighters, who have moves that aren't outright better than the others (barring Gunner's Neutral 3 to the point where it was actually nerfed in a patch). For Gunner, I could maybe vouch 3322 or 3312, but I have very little idea on Swordfighter. I don't think the character is good at all, alternate specials or not.

My main issue with Full Set Mid is that, specifically for Gunner and Sword, who have more variety in players and their sets, is that their specials can vastly change the way they play, unlike Brawler who is more reliant on good normals. It also creates the situation where people change specials mid-set, which is a thing people are starting to recognize and act on; for instance, Smash N Splash II will be running Full Set Mid Lock (which locks you to one set of Mii Fighter specials per type, per tournament set, but you can use different sets for each Mii in a tournament set). It's a bit convoluted but it's probably the most conscious and liberal decision.

Sizes are another issue but Tiny Brawler's frame data is absolutely insane. The character basically shoots up to Top 10 and only is stopped by the fact that some long range characters/Mario can give him a hard time, but he dominates so many members of the cast. Basically no way that terror will ever likely see the light of day outside of friendlies ever again. 50/50 is a fine size to me because it's standardized.

 

[Marc]

I was under the impression that most Mii enthusiasts are fine with default sizes and looks. I honestly wouldn't even mind someone quickly setting up a certain look, but at least in terms of size and weight I'd prefer it to be consistent.

And yeah, "optimal" sets are somewhat arbitrary for Miis not Brawler and make less sense than either 1111 or full moves IMO. You're basically saying that it's okay to tweak them, but only in a specific way? Weird.

 

[Gunla]

I was under the impression that most Mii enthusiasts are fine with default sizes and looks. I honestly wouldn't even mind someone quickly setting up a certain look, but at least in terms of size and weight I'd prefer it to be consistent.

It's a purely cosmetic standpoint; I grow tired of the default look at times. Size and Weight and things I am fine with keeping at 50/50 and most of the Mii community is, which is why I always enjoy having the ability to load cosmetic sets pre-tournament.

And yeah, "optimal" sets are somewhat arbitrary for Miis not Brawler and make less sense than either 1111 or full moves IMO. You're basically saying that it's okay to tweak them, but only in a specific way? Weird.

It's moreso a bit of a biased perspective, I'll admit. What most Mii enthusiasts want is Full Set Mid and in a sense it's more accommodating because of Gunner and Swordfighter's more diverse sets. I've just had lots of salt towards me usually being along the lines of "well there's so many sets to use that I can't learn how to fight them" which is why I'm more resigned towards that standpoint.

 

[Thinkaman]

Setting up unique sizes requires closing the game, returning to the WiiU system menu, loading Mii Maker, making the Mii, restarting the game, reconfiguring tourney settings, and getting a TO to verify that that reconfiguration was correct.

Setting up specials takes maybe 30 seconds, or 0 if that Mii has been created previously.

Full Banning of Miis
-Miis don't exist by default.

I mean, neither do custom control profiles.

-Potential for Hitler vs Jesus and other things we don't want on streams.

If we are requiring 50/50 stock Miis, people are limited to the default 6 options anyway.

(I know you are just the messenger trying to fairly summarize a stance that some people have.)

 

[san.]

More information on Miis:

Brawler frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19_GIeg0YRiB86NyHTXk9UJ2JuGQrXkN7bGXwtt3XgAI/edit#gid=0
Swordfighter frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f870NqIzZbOvVt3AdyaUQ/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0
Gunner frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...v9hbO5RNpUZBfv71Q9doM/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0

To go into more detail on some things Gunla said:

• Startup of all normals are the same for all Miis
• FAF and landing lag reductions are partially percentage-based, applying to normals and grabs. Some things reduce by 2, others by 7
  
• Frame data of all specials are the same.
• Specials behave the same way except for range, and recovery distance for a few specials.
• Some estimations on Mii Movement: http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/
• From the info above, tiny Brawler is a faster Yoshi.

I think it's hasty to make assumptions on the viability of 0/0 sets when they haven't been seen since last summer. There have been quite a few mechanics changes, new powerful strategies exectuted, and strong characters released.

As far as what to use, the easiest method allows the use of Mii specials with guest miis for large tournaments. Easily enforceable and causes no issues.

Some people want a top 1 set so they can practice against it, and for now that would be what Liberation said for Brawler, 3312 for Gunner, and something like 1231 Swordfighter. Many people will be angry with this and no time is really saved, but it's a compromise that many vocal people in the community think is a good idea to settle on.

In regards to 1111, it depends on how much power we want to give the community for policing every little thing. Should the other sets be banned like we ban stages? Allow the use of specials as part of the character? From my own perspective, it's an option available to us and should be used unless it's bannable.

Size is another issue entirely, involving logistics never before seen in the community. It doesn't seem to cause issues for smaller-sized tournaments where things can be set up ahead of time, but at the very large tournaments, Mii sizes need to be available or transfers possible. 1 3DS can solve an entire tournament's worth of issues, but there is a sort of paranoia about the ability to do this(?) unless I am reading it wrong.

I really do advocate smaller tournaments to experiment with allowing various sizes to give some feedback for the larger tournaments.

 

[Raziek]

I have always run fully legal Miis at my tournaments locally. Both size and moveset.

I leave the responsibility for importing the Mii in the hands of the player who wants to play them, with offensively designed Miis being restricted at TO discretion.

I understand that the self-providing issue becomes more of a problem at very large tournaments, but I think at the very least they should have full freedom of moveset.

Miis are designed as THE Create-a-character. Their specials do not have any clear or coherent design in the 1111 setup, and this is blatantly obvious when comparing their moves to every other character in the cast. They can use any and all of them even when the custom switch is turned off, and the game files do not even refer to them as custom moves, so I hear. (In the file structure)

I think banning/restricting Miis is quite frankly one of the scrubbiest things the community as a whole has EVER done. There is virtually no logical justification for it.

 

[Marc]

I've polled the local scene on Miis and we are likely to switch from 1111 to full moveset with default sizes.

How should we handle counterpicking movesets? As a TO I would prefer it if people made one Mii per set at most, rather than putting someone through various Mii Brawlers and having to set one up after every game. It's a theoretical and extreme example, but better to be clear on it. I'm leaning towards saying that if you make a Mii in one of the three categories, that's your Mii in that category for the set.

 

[Gunla]

I've polled the local scene on Miis and we are likely to switch from 1111 to full moveset with default sizes.

How should we handle counterpicking movesets? As a TO I would prefer it if people made one Mii per set at most, rather than putting someone through various Mii Brawlers and having to set one up after every game. It's a theoretical and extreme example, but better to be clear on it. I'm leaning towards saying that if you make a Mii in one of the three categories, that's your Mii in that category for the set.

A lot of TOs honestly forget about this. It's a good thing to bring up.

Seems like you want to go with the MLG ruling, which limits you to 1 Mii (and 1 set of specials) per tournament set (IE: You can only use 2122 Brawler and nothing else during that specific set). Alternatively, there's Full Set Mid Lock which allows you to switch Miis mid-set, but you can't use different special sets on a Mii during a tournament set (IE: you can't use 2122 and 1122 Brawler during a set, but you can use 2122 Brawler and 3312 Gunner).

The rulings are effectively the same but only affect a very small number of people, being those that play multiple Miis (Kraven from Puerto Rico is probably the most notable person to do this, 6th on their PR and plays Brawler/Gunner). Since they're basically the same thing, it basically comes down to pure preference at your point.

 

[Marc]

It's a tough one. If we treat them as three different characters, it would make sense to allow someone to create another type when counterpicking. I guess I'm leaning towards the second option.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Realistically, the Miis are close to useless if you use 1111 (Swordfigther has some limited merit; Brawler and Gunner are sad shells of characters); it's the very similar to banning them altogether for practical purposes, and it's really arbitrary anyway since you're building a custom character and just choosing the first option all the time. They're literally custom characters so it seems strange to me to even be able to consider the issue of custom moves for everyone else and for Miis separately; I'd feel salty if I was at a tournament that let a Mii player use whatever he wanted but limited my character to just one moveset. If you're going to ban customs (which we're not to discuss so let's take that as a given), I don't see how you can really justify not throwing Miis out with them. It's not really good for the game to just ban three perfectly fair characters, but in this scenario, it's the most fair possible decision.

I'm sure that's controversial and will be most rigorously disagreed with by the people who agree with what I really believe in terms of rulesets, but look at it this way. You're the TO and there's uncertainty and disagreement over the rules at a set (almost no one actually reads the rules before a tournament so this is likely). It's a Palutena player versus a Mii Brawler player. The Palutena player thought customs were banned and was unhappy that this guy picked Brawler (let's say he picked 2122 Brawler so he's getting a really quality character here). You tell him the Brawler is allowed, and the Palutena goes to pick 2312 Palutena, and then you tell him that's not allowed. The Palutena player loses this set and is super salty. He claims the rules were rigged against him, letting his opponent use powerful tools he didn't have access to. For the sake of humor, let's assume this Palutena player was otherwise better than the Mii Brawler player so he would have won if Miis were fully banned or if customs were fully allowed either way; only this particular ruleset made it possible for him to lose the set. Other than "I'm the TO, I make the rules, no johns" or "other regions do this" or some other equivalent appeal to authority that's really just a cop out so you don't have to deal with this guy, what do you actually tell this Palutena player to convince him that the ruleset was fair and that his loss was legitimate proof that the Mii player was the deserving, superior player? Do you really believe that, in the exact situation I described, that the Mii player is the true superior player and deserves a win in your tournament?

I don't think there's anything you could actually say that would be true and convincing that this middle of the road situation to maximize his personal odds of losing represented a fair tournament environment for the Palutena player, and I don't think this situation is really acceptable. This is the most extreme possible case, but many such softer cases can easily arise to the point that someone will die super early to Helicopter Kick and be salty and push you on this point if this is how you choose to go. Rulesets must never be made to give special privileges to specific characters, and treating the Miis in any way differently than every other character is basically putting your thumb on the scale in favor of Mii players. It generates little outcry now because Mii players are very rare (who would practice with frequently banned characters?), but if adopted as a standard, the salt will flow. It's harsh, but if you're going to issue bans, they need to be uniform and without exceptions for sympathetic cases; anything else moves way too close to picking winners via rulesets which is the thing that must be avoided above all else.

As a side note, I'm sure someone will point out that you can pick Miis with the customs setting turned to "off". This is true, but it's worth noting that you can pick any size Mii (so do you let players go into the Mii Maker and build them so someone can have his 17/23 Mii Brawler that he for whatever reason finds optimal?) and furthermore that button is literally just a button that carries no real gameplay baggage for clicking it (you could ban customs and have that button clicked the whole time, and it would have no effect other than making the css blue). I don't think that argument is convincing at all, but it is one I've heard.

 

[Marc]

The game apparently doesn't think of Mii movesets as custom moves if you can select them while customs are off. They are also the only special moves not derived from some sort of base move while, for example, DK just has three different punches on his neutral B. I think this is perfectly explainable.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Relevant to this discussion, I'll chime in my own thoughts soonish.

 

[san.]

Realistically, the Miis are close to useless if you use 1111 (Swordfigther has some limited merit; Brawler and Gunner are sad shells of characters); it's the very similar to banning them altogether for practical purposes, and it's really arbitrary anyway since you're building a custom character and just choosing the first option all the time. They're literally custom characters so it seems strange to me to even be able to consider the issue of custom moves for everyone else and for Miis separately; I'd feel salty if I was at a tournament that let a Mii player use whatever he wanted but limited my character to just one moveset. If you're going to ban customs (which we're not to discuss so let's take that as a given), I don't see how you can really justify not throwing Miis out with them. It's not really good for the game to just ban three perfectly fair characters, but in this scenario, it's the most fair possible decision.

I'm sure that's controversial and will be most rigorously disagreed with by the people who agree with what I really believe in terms of rulesets, but look at it this way. You're the TO and there's uncertainty and disagreement over the rules at a set (almost no one actually reads the rules before a tournament so this is likely). It's a Palutena player versus a Mii Brawler player. The Palutena player thought customs were banned and was unhappy that this guy picked Brawler (let's say he picked 2122 Brawler so he's getting a really quality character here). You tell him the Brawler is allowed, and the Palutena goes to pick 2312 Palutena, and then you tell him that's not allowed. The Palutena player loses this set and is super salty. He claims the rules were rigged against him, letting his opponent use powerful tools he didn't have access to. For the sake of humor, let's assume this Palutena player was otherwise better than the Mii Brawler player so he would have won if Miis were fully banned or if customs were fully allowed either way; only this particular ruleset made it possible for him to lose the set. Other than "I'm the TO, I make the rules, no johns" or "other regions do this" or some other equivalent appeal to authority that's really just a cop out so you don't have to deal with this guy, what do you actually tell this Palutena player to convince him that the ruleset was fair and that his loss was legitimate proof that the Mii player was the deserving, superior player? Do you really believe that, in the exact situation I described, that the Mii player is the true superior player and deserves a win in your tournament?

I don't think there's anything you could actually say that would be true and convincing that this middle of the road situation to maximize his personal odds of losing represented a fair tournament environment for the Palutena player, and I don't think this situation is really acceptable. This is the most extreme possible case, but many such softer cases can easily arise to the point that someone will die super early to Helicopter Kick and be salty and push you on this point if this is how you choose to go. Rulesets must never be made to give special privileges to specific characters, and treating the Miis in any way differently than every other character is basically putting your thumb on the scale in favor of Mii players. It generates little outcry now because Mii players are very rare (who would practice with frequently banned characters?), but if adopted as a standard, the salt will flow. It's harsh, but if you're going to issue bans, they need to be uniform and without exceptions for sympathetic cases; anything else moves way too close to picking winners via rulesets which is the thing that must be avoided above all else.

Someone's going to be sad, some characters have superior specials or many specials in 1. I spent a good 13+ months of practice with a Mii and I was forced by the environment to switch out.

I'll try to explain more below.

As a side note, I'm sure someone will point out that you can pick Miis with the customs setting turned to "off". This is true, but it's worth noting that you can pick any size Mii (so do you let players go into the Mii Maker and build them so someone can have his 17/23 Mii Brawler that he for whatever reason finds optimal?)

Mii sizes offer potential logistical issues never before seen in the series. Of course, we have 3DS transfers and QR codes, but it's still tough to convince some of the larger tournaments to adopt it since they may have some legitimate concerns that we never thought about.

For Mii maker stuff, you shouldn't allow exiting the game during the tournament. This will likely extend to not doing this at all at larger events. This makes it so that the worst case would be for the mii player to use default. I think as a worst case, it's fine if the unprepared player needs to resort to 50/50 size.

and furthermore that button is literally just a button that carries no real gameplay baggage for clicking it (you could ban customs and have that button clicked the whole time, and it would have no effect other than making the css blue). I don't think that argument is convincing at all, but it is one I've heard.

Prefer menu-driven rulesets whenever possible so we leave as little left to interpretation as possible. I don't really trust most other players with potentially subjective issues when a clear, concise, game-driven solution already exists. That's why I stress this so much and why I'd rather leave it up to the game whenever possible. Delegating the responsibility to the game is also a nice thing when it can just be toggled.

A little off-topic, but this isn't necessarily developer intent since I have no idea what they intended, but the programming makes it so and there's no reason to push against the grain. If I'm making the assumption that all the code is well documented, the features behind the 'Custom Fighters' ON/OFF are also well documented for what it can/cannot do.

The programming could've made Custom Fighters: OFF disable both equipment and non-1111 Mii specials. It does this in event mode. However, it doesn't do this in the main smash mode.

 

[CT Chia]

I wrote this (with help from the Mii Plaza Discord) to gather literally all information possible in regards to Mii Legality: http://clashtournaments.com/MiiKnowledgebase.pdf

Has a ton of great information you will all find useful

 

[erico9001]

Reading san. 's message from a couple months ago... it's something I very much disagree with. Going on something just because it's automatically set is totally arbitrary, which makes it a terrible way to decide something when there are actual consequences.

My stance on miis is they should probably be legal with all moves allowed, but I cannot be certain. I am very unsure if miis should be allowed all of their sizes or not.



The sooner this can be fixed the better though. Having this big inconsistency is not good for the players. People are no doubt going to be getting the feeling of declusion from this. Having your main, moveset, or controller banned at a major really feels like you're just not invited. It's not good.

 

[san.]

Reading san. 's message from a couple months ago... it's something I very much disagree with. Going on something just because it's automatically set is totally arbitrary, which makes it a terrible way to decide something when there are actual consequences.

My stance on miis is they should probably be legal with all moves allowed, but I cannot be certain. I am very unsure if miis should be allowed all of their sizes or not.

View attachment 117299

The sooner this can be fixed the better though. Having this big inconsistency is not good for the players. People are no doubt going to be getting the feeling of declusion from this. Having your main, moveset, or controller banned at a major really feels like you're just not invited. It's not good.

May I ask why? I don't really remember the details, but reading my post again:

• Some people will be dissatisfied/negatively affected no matter the ruling
• Mii size has issues other than gameplay effects due to the logistics of changing size.
  
• Prefer menu-driven rulesets whenever possible

Not sure what you disagree with.

Mii size issue- We have the frame data differences for all sizes. Startup isn't affected, only endlag. Minute differences in size may change the endlag by a frame. Most people will use 0/0, anything else hinders your viability to the point where 0/0 is the optimal choice. At that point, it doesn't matter what laggier, slower size they use. Comboing them is similar.

It's tolerable enough. It just becomes infeasible when you have to go to Mii Maker to do stuff. Seems possible for locals and regionals to handle, but once you get to a large regional or national scale, a player will likely need a 3DS to get his preferred size consistently. That raises even more concerns.


Menu-Driven rulesets - Rules are 2 stock, 6 minutes, XYZ stages, etc. We add extra rules such as the stage strike / CP / tiebreaker handling to make things easier since the game can't really handle it well.

The community decided to bypass the Custom Fighters setting and instead created a rule for customs off and mii fighters all set to 1111. Makes things a little more convoluted than CUSTOM FIGHTERS ON/OFF.

"Going by something just because it's automatically set" means? I don't think we should go with something just because it's automatically set.

 

[erico9001]

May I ask why? I don't really remember the details, but reading my post again:

• Some people will be dissatisfied/negatively affected no matter the ruling
• Mii size has issues other than gameplay effects due to the logistics of changing size.
  
• Prefer menu-driven rulesets whenever possible

Not sure what you disagree with.

Mii size issue- We have the frame data differences for all sizes. Startup isn't affected, only endlag. Minute differences in size may change the endlag by a frame. Most people will use 0/0, anything else hinders your viability to the point where 0/0 is the optimal choice. At that point, it doesn't matter what laggier, slower size they use. Comboing them is similar.

It's tolerable enough. It just becomes infeasible when you have to go to Mii Maker to do stuff. Seems possible for locals and regionals to handle, but once you get to a large regional or national scale, a player will likely need a 3DS to get his preferred size consistently. That raises even more concerns.


Menu-Driven rulesets - Rules are 2 stock, 6 minutes, XYZ stages, etc. We add extra rules such as the stage strike / CP / tiebreaker handling to make things easier since the game can't really handle it well.

The community decided to bypass the Custom Fighters setting and instead created a rule for customs off and mii fighters all set to 1111. Makes things a little more convoluted than CUSTOM FIGHTERS ON/OFF.

"Going by something just because it's automatically set" means? I don't think we should go with something just because it's automatically set.

I could be mistaken then. What do you mean by menu-driven rulesets? I am going from the interpretation you are saying that because the menu has custom moves off automatically, that's the way it should be.

 

[san.]

I could be mistaken then. What do you mean by menu-driven rulesets? I am going from the interpretation you are saying that because the menu has custom moves off automatically, that's the way it should be.

When I wrote that, I meant that it's easier to create rulesets using the in-game options, otherwise it's left up to people's interpretation once any complication arises. Even our stage/character select system has a bunch of clauses to it because of that. Sometimes the game handles things poorly or even not at all, so it makes sense to make additional rules then.

About the Mii stuff, I just feel that it's messy to create your own "customs are banned" rule vs. using the in-game toggle since you're trying to duplicate what's already there. Just my opinion. Looking at the results, we have a ton of videos and debate discussing what customs are and what deserves banning/limiting, and almost all of it goes nowhere.

 

[erico9001]

san. yeah I really dislike the debate over what 'customs' are. The semantics of it all doesn't change the underlying reasons for ban or inclusion.

Something I do gather from it all - GimR's video and whatnot - many or most people don't appose custom moves for logical reasons. And I know there are people who do dislike custom moves from logical based reasoning - I don't mean this as an insult to them.

Just when all that matters is whether a move is called a custom move or not, when it functions so very similarly in principle and definition to one, it reveals that it's just a stigma.

And a really annoying one which I wish GimR didn't feed into

 

[Diosdi]

+=pros -=cons /=neither

Full Legalization of Miis (Let Mii Play)
+Allows for more variety
+There isn't really a "broken" type of moveset
/Setting Mii's up actually takes time UNLESS they are set up before the tournament. Each type of Mii has 27 different combinations of moves, 27 times three, which is the amount of types of mii (Brawler, Sword, Gunner) is 81 for ALL possible combinations of types, which fits in the 99 cap that the Wii U has. I talk about this in my article "A Smashing Debate, Part 1"
/People tend to say that this makes up for MUs to learn, which may be true, but with alt moves only 1/4 of the char changes, considering that each char has Tilt Attacks, Smash Attacks, Aerial Attacks and Special Attacks, alt moves only affect the latter, so the res is unchanged.

Full Banning of Miis
-It actually affects Mii mains sso then cant use their main

Miis Limited to a "default" set (1111)
+kinda puts everything in "order"

Mii's Limited to an "optimal" set (predetermined set)
+most people would be happy with the only option allowed

These are obv my opinions on this, i may be forgetting something, but i think that Miis should have the more options possible. I state in the article that having all 81 combinations is possible, but also doing something similar to the Custom Moves Project would also work.

 

[CT Chia]

Take it from one of the leading members of the Mii community, most people would not be happy with the golden/optimal set allowed Diosdi. This is clearly shown in the results of the Community Impact on Miis poll in my knowledgebase where 58% of Miis polled said this is not a suitable compromise.

Let me ask this... What is the actual purpose of this thread? What do we plan to do with this for the 4BR?

 

[Diosdi]

I actuallydon't support the "optimal" moveset. I support legalizing all movesets with 50/50 height and weight.

 

[Yikarur]

I really would like to know if debating in this thread would have any impact to the outside.

Europe uses Guest Mii's with all moves (or golden moveset) in almost all tournaments except for a very low number of relevant tournaments. Every tournament I've visited since Smash 4's release had some kind of Mii Ruling that made them playable (for me at least)

Setting-up a Mii is very easy and fast. I've done it at almost every tournament so far with no problems.

I hope some majors will allow them in the future because their impact IS SO SMALL but you make the game more enjoyable for a lot of people. (and the ruling is reasonable). It really breaks my heart to read storys of the Mii players in the USA and how they are getting excluded to enter majors with the character they have the most fun with.

pls, make a change ((

 

[CT Chia]

Y E S
Making a statement would help make a change. If everyone thinks it wouldn't, then no one would be saying anything nationwide and nothing would change. In fact, I think coming together to suggest a full ruleset would be the best. Suggesting only Miis on its own, while good, may not have the same impact if it's only a part of a ruleset, and may just make people want the full thing.

 

[Player-1]

I also like the idea of a recommended ruleset so long as we can use clauses like "up to TO discretion" or "Refer to your local community" for some of the more controversial rules like miis

 

[CT Chia]

Well based on past BR work, the recommended jam doesn't work. And if we wrap it up by saying hey but do what you want, it feels kinda moot. Like sure it might help a little, but I feel like there's more we can do (but that isn't defined yet, we need to think of what it could be)

 

[Player-1]

I thought the recommended ruleset worked out fine, the Unity Ruleset was what got a lot of flack which was the opposite.

I would view a recommended ruleset more for new TOs trying to enter local tournaments, but not knowing where to start for rulsets. Using CEO 2015 as an example, I've gone to tons of tournaments that just ran that ruleset even 6 months after the tournament happened where a lot of the rules were serverly outdated (Delfino legal for example).

Also, for the record, I would probably want to avoid the variety as much as possible. For me at least, I would probably just leave Miis to be open to TO discretion.