Mii Gunner competitive viability?

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Gunner goes even with Diddy kong if he's using 1312. Missile's and bomb drop do huge wonders in this MU. Both characters will rack damage on each other fast, but Gunner edges it out vs Diddy when it comes to killing with his 1312 set. Surprise charge shot or bomb drop with rage is very helpful. Slow missile will also lead into charge shots or even smash attacks at certain distances with Gunner.

1111 Gunner vs Cloud is pretty hard. It becomes worse when Cloud is in limit mode, die to his increased running speed and air speed. 1312 goes even with Cloud, but it goes slightly into Clouds favor when he's in limit mode for the same reason above. Bomb drop helps greatly here. Missile is also better vs cloud than flama pillar tbh. I mean, you can get ledge flama pillar cheese vs Cloud there, but you better get him there asap, before he kills you. Its very tough to get a good Cloud on the ledge with Gunner. Missile does help with needed space and instant pressure. You can even gimp Cloud at times with slow missile lmao

Sheik vs 1111 Gunner is in Sheiks Favor. Both struggle to kill and Sheik can avoid flama pillar shenanigans alot better than other fighters. Her needles are annoying and her frame data up close just wrecks all of Gunners options. It becomes even with 1312. Missiles go through needles and bomb drop literally eats through all of her attacks, even bouncing fish lol Bomb drop with rage can usually take her stocks, since both of you will be about at max rage at times.

Fox.... Ugh! This guy just wrecks all Gunner sets. So annoying. Id rather fight Diddy or Cloud than this guy with Gunner

1111 Gunner seems good as a "surprise" character to me. At high or top level play. 1111 Gunner feels like a poor man's Villager tbh. You can throw people off by using him, since majority of players have never played a Gunner, compared to playing a Villager lol But if your against someone who knows the Gunner MU or is a power shield fiend. 1111 Gunner can't really do much tbh. Your best bet is to throw them offstsge asap and rack up as much damage with flama pillar stuff a possible. Fast characters can intercept gundashing. Shut Gunners mobility options and projectile game with power shields. There's really not much he can do.

Like, I will rarely pull out a 1111 Gunner and just win once and then switch characters lol People don't know really what to do against it, if they've never played one lol

 

[SR-71]

That's not really true about 1111 being unfamiliar, more people have played aginst 1111 since 1111 is the most legal set right now for Gunner. Plus, almost all of the 1111 moves are familiar from other characters (Ness, Samus, Fox) so which of them are you talking about as unfamiliar or gimmicky? Just Flame Pillar and Reflector? You could be more specific (and probably read over your posts for grammar/spelling because it gets difficult to read your thoughts sometimes). Also I don't think 1111 Gunner is a joke or "surprise" character or whatever, some people like Flama and ROM have been getting great results with it. In my own opinion, 1111 Gunner requires the most precision and rewards you for that precision. A well-placed Flame Pillar on the ledge can net you a stock, and Reflector can help you escape from combos, saving you from taking 30% or losing a stock, or it can help you recover unpredictably with gundashing. But on the other hand, bombs and missiles require very little precision, you mostly just drop an explosive and wait for the opponent to get hit. So I don't agree with your argument that 1111 is inferior, maybe bomb drop is better than reflector for many matchups, but I would definitely prefer Flame Pillar against cloud. I have won many matches against Cloud simply by preventing his recovery with Flame Pillar on the ledge. Even reflector has helped against his neutral B, and in my opinion, it's about as good as bomb drop for escaping Cloud's up-airs when recovering high. Reflect, turnaround, jump-gundash to safety. Or drop a bomb and hope it hits. Either option is good. Other people may disagree, but I think you have underestimated Flame Pillar in your post. Rather than argue about it, I hope we can agree that both sets are viable and we should strive to get all Mii moves legalized instead of just a single set.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Gunner goes even with Diddy kong if he's using 1312. Missile's and bomb drop do huge wonders in this MU. Both characters will rack damage on each other fast, but Gunner edges it out vs Diddy when it comes to killing with his 1312 set. Surprise charge shot or bomb drop with rage is very helpful. Slow missile will also lead into charge shots or even smash attacks at certain distances with Gunner.

1111 Gunner vs Cloud is pretty hard. It becomes worse when Cloud is in limit mode, die to his increased running speed and air speed. 1312 goes even with Cloud, but it goes slightly into Clouds favor when he's in limit mode for the same reason above. Bomb drop helps greatly here. Missile is also better vs cloud than flama pillar tbh. I mean, you can get ledge flama pillar cheese vs Cloud there, but you better get him there asap, before he kills you. Its very tough to get a good Cloud on the ledge with Gunner. Missile does help with needed space and instant pressure. You can even gimp Cloud at times with slow missile lmao

Sheik vs 1111 Gunner is in Sheiks Favor. Both struggle to kill and Sheik can avoid flama pillar shenanigans alot better than other fighters. Her needles are annoying and her frame data up close just wrecks all of Gunners options. It becomes even with 1312. Missiles go through needles and bomb drop literally eats through all of her attacks, even bouncing fish lol Bomb drop with rage can usually take her stocks, since both of you will be about at max rage at times.

Fox.... Ugh! This guy just wrecks all Gunner sets. So annoying. Id rather fight Diddy or Cloud than this guy with Gunner

1111 Gunner seems good as a "surprise" character to me. At high or top level play. 1111 Gunner feels like a poor man's Villager tbh. You can throw people off by using him, since majority of players have never played a Gunner, compared to playing a Villager lol But if your against someone who knows the Gunner MU or is a power shield fiend. 1111 Gunner can't really do much tbh. Your best bet is to throw them offstsge asap and rack up as much damage with flama pillar stuff a possible. Fast characters can intercept gundashing. Shut Gunners mobility options and projectile game with power shields. There's really not much he can do.

Like, I will rarely pull out a 1111 Gunner and just win once and then switch characters lol People don't know really what to do against it, if they've never played one lol

1111 Gunner is not a poor man's Villager. Gunner's superior mobility and higher priority on projectiles gives Gunner the better neutral (Villager struggles with characters like Cloud and Little Mac in the neutral because they can beat his projectiles with hitboxes). While Villager's great disadvantage state makes him the better character, Gunner's top tier neutral gives the character a unique place in the metagame. Gunner doesn't do that badly against perfect shielding because fair is safe on perfect shield (even in close range, it is still +5 on block), and Gunner has a fast grab with good range and follow ups (These follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread).

1111 Gunner doesn't really have a hard time with Cloud because Gunner's transcendent priority fair goes through Cloud's disjoints and gives Gunner the edge in the neutral. While Limit Cloud has great mobility, Gunner's fair combos and fair to charge blast 50-50 can help Gunner rack up damage or kill while staying away from Cloud's limit cross slash.

Sheik vs Gunner is a pretty even matchup because Gunner can control mid to long range with fair and charge blast and stay alive for a long time due to his/her weight. Gunner can also get some good damage from grabs in this matchup since Sheik is a fastfaller (down throw to nair and up throw to up tilt are true combos on fastfallers at low percents, and up throw to up tilt is a good way to rack up damage since up tilt can juggle opponents). The fact that neither character is good at killing makes this matchup go to last stock last hit in tournament play. By the way, what moveset of Gunner did you use to beat K9?.

While Gunner loses to Fox, Gunner's throw combos on Fox combined with Gunner's ability to edgeguard Fox makes this matchup doable.

In conclusion, the results of Gunner definitely show that Gunner isn't just a surprise character. ROM vs Sean at Genesis 3 proves that Gunner doesn't rely on matchup inexperience to win sets (after losing to Sean's Diddy Kong in the first round, ROM beat Sean to get out of the first pool), while ROM beating Kirihara at Umebura 24 shows that Gunner doesn't have a matchup that makes the character lose at the character select screen.

 

[AEMehr]

By the way, what moveset of Gunner did you use to beat K9?.

TIny 1111 iirc.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I think you guys are overselling 1111 Gunner too much tbh. He isn't bad by any means, but he isn't as grand as y'all make him out to be. Reason I called him a "Poor Man's Villager" is because they both try to accomplish the same thing. Both require precise usage of projectile and hard conditioning with zoning. Only difference being Villager does it way better than 1111 Gunner. Let's be real, when was the last time a 1111 Gunner got a top or super high placing at a super stacked national or international? Besides me making Top 32 at Evo 2015 using Gunner, but my Gunner was Tiny size with customs and not 1111 Guest size. ROM got 97th place out of 1100+ people at Genesis 3(which is great), but it's still not a top or super high placing, nor did he really beat anyone worthy of an upset. Heck, I got 97th at Gen 3 with Wii Fit, but that doesnt mean Wii Fit is super viable by any means. ROM is the only one with an accomplishment at a top national tourny with 1111 Gunner, but even then, it wasn't a huge achievement. If 1111 was as great. There would be more usage and better results for this character. Other projectile zoners such as Toon Link, Duck Hunt, Villager, Megaman, Rob, heck even Wii Fit has better results than 1111 Gunner. Again, 1111 is good and not bad or bottom or low tier. I feel he's mid tier at best. It's just other projectile users do his job better than he does. I was getting wins at first using 1111 Gunner here in SoCal against the top and high level players here at first. But then they learned how 1111 Gunner works and just started to beat me. That's why I went to using just Wii Fit and Corrin, cause 1111 Gunner can only get you so far, over here in SoCal that is. People here adapt like crazy. Which is why I said I only use him against people who have never played a 1111 Gunner. For the surprise and flama pillar jank shenanigans. I would love to see ROM or Flama come out to any Nationals here in the US or even SoCal and cause some major upset with 1111 Gunner. Would be cool to see and I'd shut up and eat a sock for underrating 1111 Gunner. I'm not trying to be shady. Just my opinion on how I feel about 1111 Gunner and why I pretty much dropped him entirely.

On those MU's listed. There is no way in hell 1111 Gunner goes even with Sheik. Playing against K9's Sheik alot and even played Vinnie's and Zero's. Sheik bodies Gunner. Her rush down snd frame data is too much. You literally have to runaway at all times and mix up your gundashimg and not get too repetitive with the places you slide to. Sheik can intercept like crazy. I do say that Guest size with customs does go even with Sheik. Missiles and especially bomb drop stop her rush down and approaches extremely well.

I'm privileged to play against alot of high level Clouds and there is no way 1111 Gunner goes even with Cloud. A smart cloud will suffocate you and be in your bubble at all times. He will not give you any room to camp and he will make it extremely hard to runaway from him.

Gunner does have throw combos on Fox, but good luck grabbing a Fox of Larrys Calibur with Gunner.

I'll just stop here with this. Since I know there will nothing but disagreements here. Just my opinion. You guys are free to think whatever you like and I'll respect that.

Edit: If Flama reads this. No disrespect to you at all. I love watching your Mii Gunner! It makes me happy to see him be used over there. I've taken some notes from you of things I've never done. Thanks for being a great rep for Mii Gunner

 

[Djmarcus44]

I think you guys are overselling 1111 Gunner too much tbh. He isn't bad by any means, but he isn't as grand as y'all make him out to be. Reason I called him a "Poor Man's Villager" is because they both try to accomplish the same thing. Both require precise usage of projectile and hard conditioning with zoning. Only difference being Villager does it way better than 1111 Gunner. Let's be real, when was the last time a 1111 Gunner got a top or super high placing at a super stacked national or international? Besides me making Top 32 at Evo 2015 using Gunner, but my Gunner was Tiny size with customs and not 1111 Guest size. ROM got 97th place out of 1100+ people at Genesis 3(which is great), but it's still not a top or super high placing, nor did he really beat anyone worthy of an upset. Heck, I got 97th at Gen 3 with Wii Fit, but that doesnt mean Wii Fit is super viable by any means. ROM is the only one with an accomplishment at a top national tourny with 1111 Gunner, but even then, it wasn't a huge achievement. If 1111 was as great. There would be more usage and better results for this character. Other projectile zoners such as Toon Link, Duck Hunt, Villager, Megaman, Rob, heck even Wii Fit has better results than 1111 Gunner. Again, 1111 is good and not bad or bottom or low tier. I feel he's mid tier at best. It's just other projectile users do his job better than he does. I was getting wins at first using 1111 Gunner here in SoCal against the top and high level players here at first. But then they learned how 1111 Gunner works and just started to beat me. That's why I went to using just Wii Fit and Corrin, cause 1111 Gunner can only get you so far, over here in SoCal that is. People here adapt like crazy. Which is why I said I only use him against people who have never played a 1111 Gunner. For the surprise and flama pillar jank shenanigans. I would love to see ROM or Flama come out to any Nationals here in the US or even SoCal and cause some major upset with 1111 Gunner. Would be cool to see and I'd shut up and eat a sock for underrating 1111 Gunner. I'm not trying to be shady. Just my opinion on how I feel about 1111 Gunner and why I pretty much dropped him entirely.

On those MU's listed. There is no way in hell 1111 Gunner goes even with Sheik. Playing against K9's Sheik alot and even played Vinnie's and Zero's. Sheik bodies Gunner. Her rush down snd frame data is too much. You literally have to runaway at all times and mix up your gundashimg and not get too repetitive with the places you slide to. Sheik can intercept like crazy. I do say that Guest size with customs does go even with Sheik. Missiles and especially bomb drop stop her rush down and approaches extremely well.

I'm privileged to play against alot of high level Clouds and there is no way 1111 Gunner goes even with Cloud. A smart cloud will suffocate you and be in your bubble at all times. He will not give you any room to camp and he will make it extremely hard to runaway from him.

Gunner does have throw combos on Fox, but good luck grabbing a Fox of Larrys Calibur with Gunner.

I'll just stop here with this. Since I know there will nothing but disagreements here. Just my opinion. You guys are free to think whatever you like and I'll respect that.

Edit: If Flama reads this. No disrespect to you at all. I love watching your Mii Gunner! It makes me happy to see him be used over there. I've taken some notes from you of things I've never done. Thanks for being a great rep for Mii Gunner

I don't entirely disagree with your opinions, and I have plenty of respect your opinions and your skills as a player. Do you have any videos of your Gunner matches with the top level sheiks and Clouds? I would like to analyze your matches with these characters compared to Flama's matches with these characters in order to see how they may have adapted to your Gunner, and see how Gunner can possibly adapt to them. I am not overselling Gunner because I also think that the character is around mid tier. While I respect your perspective as a top player going against some of the best players in the world, there are some corrections that I have to make to some of your statements.

While Villager can condition opponent's with projectiles better than Mii Gunner, that is not the only thing that Mii Gunner does. Gunner is better than Villager at anti-zoning and approaching without projectiles due to Gunner's great dash to shield and good initial dash (Gunner's reflector is also pretty helpful in this regard). Gunner is also safer than Villager against shield and perfect shield. These are some of the reasons why I don't think that Mii Gunner is a poor man's Villager.

I also have to mention that ROM and Flama have more results than you mentioned. When ROM got 97th in Genesis 3, he beat Pugwest to get there. ROM also got 33rd in Umebura 24 (out of 224 with some of the best players in Japan attending), and he beat Kirihara (arguably the second best in the world) and Daiki (the third best in the world) in order to get that placement. Flama got 5th (out of 84 with Leo Serge and Hyuga in attendance) in Hail Smash III using Gunner with Mario as a secondary and he beat D-Pollo (the best in Mexico and ranked 8th in Mexico City.) and Klein (the best in Mexico and ranked 6th in Mexico City. Klein has also taken a set off of Leo) in order to get there. In my post on the last page of this thread, I explained some of the reasons Gunner doesn't get used very often.

While Sheik's rushdown can be problematic, Gunner's fair and charge blast can keep Sheik away while still racking up good damage. Gunner can get damage from fair combos (these combos are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread) in order to avoid running away the entire match. Flama and Javi (the best in Mexico and power ranked 4th in Mexico City) had some very close matches in Hail Smash III with Javi going 2-1 over two sets. Since all of the matches were last stock last hit, I find it hard to believe that Sheik bodies Gunner, but I can change my opinion on the matchup if I can see some video evidence.

I also have to mention that Cloud isn't really that good in CQC. His grounded moves are unsafe on shield, and you can roll through his LCS out of shield in order to punish it. Cloud is also worse against perfect shielding than Gunner because he doesn't have any moves that are safe against perfect shield, and he has a pretty bad grab and grab game. While he does outrange Gunner in CQC, he shouldn't be suffocating Gunner in this area.

While it is pretty tough to grab a skilled Fox, it can still be done out of shield or perfect shield. Gunner can also combo into grab from fair at low percents.

Flama did say that he might be able to attend some major tournaments such as EVO next year. This will help give us a better perspective on Gunner's matchups and place in the metagame.