Mii Fighters Legality

[KuroganeHammer]

There's quite a few ways to customize your mii, and every customization (mainly weight and height) affects your mii's performance stats including weight, a damage multiplier on basic attacks, speed and hurtbox size.

I suggest that for the Wii U that we ban all mii fighter types except minimum size mii, maximum size mii and default size mii.

I suppose that mii's used by the creator are fair game? Like, I would prefer to use my own Mii if I was playing on my Wii U console I brought to a tournament, but that's just me

Thoughts?

 

[Overswarm]

Banning anything but the extremes for the Miis is a knee-jerky response from a balancing standpoint. We already have to deal with altered knockback and damage via the rage mechanic, lucario's rage mechanic, vectoring, sour spots, sweet spots, shulk's monado, and who knows what else I'm forgetting. Mii's being too tall or too skinny certainly isn't going to result in something we can't handle.

From a tournament organizing standpoint it might be a bit crazier, depending on how these Miis work. Given that we know the Amiibo is going to be a "thing" it may be that "any and all Mii mains are expected to bring their character saved on an Amiibo" or something of the sort. I can't imagine even a month of half the tournament trying to make Hitler and Jesus Miis battle it out and forcing people to wait for their Mii to be created... but it all depends on how long these Miis take to create, how to create them, and if there are any defaults in the Wii U version.

It's also known that the 3DS may be used as a controller for the Wii U version. If this syncing is possible, it may be possible to transfer Miis as well.

Should tournament organization be hindered by the creation of Miis during the tournament and there is no decent solution available, having the "main options" might be a good halfway solution while still allowing them in tournament. We still have some time to see though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I can't imagine even a month of half the tournament trying to make Hitler and Jesus Miis battle it out and forcing people to wait for their Mii to be created...

LOL this is exactly what i want to avoid

I also don't want johns because "Oh my mii wasn't the precise size and weight I wanted" which is why a 3 choice default option is the best way to go imo

the differences in weight is like, 5 points, the differences in % is about 3? they're all minor to the point I think we could just ban everything and people would be fine (maybe) which is all changable rather than those other things you mentioned which aren't changable

Assuming there's no easy way to sync miis to different wii u consoles

Mii Fighters are really good, top/high tier, so yeah

 

[Overswarm]

I think this is a good thing to lay out in advance (like what do if X, Y, Z), but do we have more info on how miis are created?

What does tall do as opposed to short? Heavy as opposed to thin? So Tall/Heavy, Tall/Thin, Tall/Medium, Midheight/Heavy, Midheight/Medium, Midheight/Thin, Short/Heavy, Short/Medium, Short/Thin are the modular selections and assuming tall and heavy mean the same thing then Tall/Heavy, Midheight/Medium, Short/Thin are the extremes.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

yes

I think height affects the same things that weight does

 

[Overswarm]

if height / weight are just two variables connecting the same thing, the only thing to figure out is how extreme those changes are. It may very well be that 3/4th emphasis on attack, 1/4th speed is the best. It would be unfair for us to arbitrarily limit a character choice that some may find enjoyable.

If it's something ridiculously minor (like between midweight and heavyweight it takes like 10 kb more) then we could likely ignore it, but it's best to be thorough.

 

[Neo Zero]

So every individual weight on the slider changes the damage and their weight (who'd of thought ) and every individual height changes hitboxes/hurtboxes, and potentially both change the speed? I was hoping it'd end up being grouped into three basic groups similar to Mario Kart.

Are these actually mutually exclusive though? Like say the tallest and shortest Mii would have different ranges, but if they're both the same weight they do the same damage? Or would the taller Mii and shorter Mii of the same weight class have differing damage values as well?

 

[Overswarm]

Basically what we're saying is to sit in front of your 3DS for 8 hours and gather information on how the Miis work.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Basically what we're saying is to sit in front of your 3DS for 8 hours and gather information on how the Miis work.

This is extremely low on my priority list when I can just say in my tournament rules "every wii u must have 3 mii fighter builds, max weight, min weight and default weight" and then never have to worry about some adamant nooblord wanting to have an incredibly short and fat mii because he looks like that irl

 

[Deleted member 245254]

My first inclination is to say they are too much of a hassle, unless we define an exact shape for all Mii's used in tournaments.

However I am doing some extensive work tonight on Mii fighter weight/hitboxes/etc. I'll let you guys know of my findings.

 

[Overswarm]

This is extremely low on my priority list when I can just say in my tournament rules "every wii u must have 3 mii fighter builds, max weight, min weight and default weight" and then never have to worry about some adamant nooblord wanting to have an incredibly short and fat mii because he looks like that irl

My concern is less "I want this for aesthetic reasons" and more "When I make him short, I have a faster falling speed and a smaller hitbox and when I am fat I deal more damage and am harder to knock out" kind of deal.

 

[Overswarm]

I do want to test this out more in depth though...

For the most standard possible outcome, I made Airy the smallest possible Mii you could get and Hagrid the largest possible. They're both up against Mario in Training Mode as Brawlers on the Spirit Tracks Final Destination.

F-Smash
Airy: 24%
Hagrid: 26%

D-Smash
Airy: 17%
Hagrid: 18%

U-Smash
Airy: 19%
Hagrid: 20%

Knockback on fully charged F-Smash
Airy: KO's 44% Mario (!!!!!!!!!)
Hagrid: KO's 43% Mario (!!!)

Time from one end of the stage to the other
Airy: 1 second, 429 milliseconds
Hagrid: 2 seconds, 114 milliseconds

Height
Airy: Barely reaches Mario's hat. She fits comfortably under the brim of it.
Hagrid: Barely reaching over the top of Mario's hat. Barely.

Other Notes:
-The small ones seem much faster, but they slide like Luigi. This makes it harder to land more direct hits.
-If the large ones are too close to the opponent, the F-Smash completely whiffs.

I'll test their defense in a little bit, but I'm hungry and need to go eat.

http://smashboards.com/threads/any-word-on-stat-changes-with-size.368726/

 

[Keitaro]

The weight/height differences seem pretty small from that data. I thought it would matter much more than a 1% to 2% difference in KO ability.

Question is do you think they should at least be legal for Smash 3DS tournaments? Also if I were to have them legal I would not allow customization of the Miis after the player's match is called. Would have to be done before their set is called, same with editing custom moves for their characters since you can't change them while connected to someone for local battles.

 

[Overswarm]

The question isn't "should they be legal". The answer to that question is unequivocally "yes".

The question is whether or not we can fit them into a tournament without larger issues occurring. We still don't know exactly how Miis can be transferred / created for the Wii U version, but if the Mii Fighter on the 3DS is simply "pick a Mii from your 3DS as a fighter that you've already created" then it's a pretty simple thing to do.

Being unable to change custom moves while connected during local battles shouldn't be a large issue. It took more time to turn tap jump off in Brawl than ti does to exit and reconnect to a local match for the 3DS -- has anyone run into any connectivity issues for local play yet?

I think it's important for people to not look for reasons to remove Mii Fighters prior to issues actually occurring. The goal should be to keep as much of the game as possible -- to remove things because they MIGHT be a problem later is pretty silly. We didn't ban custom controls in Brawl despite it potentially adding a full two minutes to a set due to a player having to potentially go to the create a name page, find it full, delete a name, add a name, change the controls, test the controls, go back to group match, scroll all the way down the list of names, then start the double blind... nor did we ban wiimote + nunchuck despite the possibility of accidental "home" button presses and the issue with syncing controllers. They presented no major issues but people made calls to remove both custom controls and non-GC controllers as possibilities due to "time saving" and "wireless interference"; valid concerns in abstract, but worthless in reality throughout all of Brawl's lifespan.

The well meaning intentions in this thread have already suggested limiting any and all Mii creations to specific heights and weights pre-selected by an arbitrary 3rd party without knowing if an in-between is actually the most powerful, the complete removal of custom-move customization for Miis based on opponent character choice (or even personal feeling after a match!), and possibly banning Mii Fighters entirely.

We should probably collect a bit more data prior to making solutions to non-existent problems.


I unfortunately won't have any data to share on Mii Fighters in tournament for some time as I do not have custom moves legal for my first tournament (which kind of makes Miis impossible), but will hopefully have data the weekend after the 11th.

 

[Keitaro]

The issue about allowing people to change custom moves mid set is that they may not know what they want to change their moves to. Custom controls are easy to chance and usually known by the player. Changing of custom moves during a set can have a player sitting there wondering what to choose, similar to an issue that coaching has caused at some events due to "intense thinking" which wasted a lot of time.

The thought of M2K thinking what stage to choose, then what character to choose, then what custom moves to use is appalling. I'm using him as an extreme example, but keep in mind that allowing a player to change custom moves mid set can also allow the other player to do the same.

 

[Overswarm]

The issue about allowing people to change custom moves mid set is that they may not know what they want to change their moves to. Custom controls are easy to chance and usually known by the player. Changing of custom moves during a set can have a player sitting there wondering what to choose, similar to an issue that coaching has caused at some events due to "intense thinking" which wasted a lot of time.

The thought of M2K thinking what stage to choose, then what character to choose, then what custom moves to use is appalling. I'm using him as an extreme example, but keep in mind that allowing a player to change custom moves mid set can also allow the other player to do the same.

In the midwest we had a unique solution for Mew2King. It's a little complex, but it mostly involves around telling him"we are going to DQ you if you are not in your seat and playing you match in the next 60 seconds" and being totally willing to do it.

We've found great success using this same solution for all players.

You remember all the players that got DQ'd at FC:Diamond and FC:6 because they went off site to get food and missed their call for matches and then their warning? I only remember one (DaShizWiz's lil bro) because DA Dave laughed his ass off and everyone else moved on. Tournament went real smooth.

If the player needs time to "consider his moves", it's probably an important decision. Giving him time to think isn't the end of the world. Also, it hasn't happened yet -- projecting doomsday scenarios isn't helpful.

If you find it actually DOES become an issue at your tournaments, the black mages set good precedent with a time limit based warning system. It was an arbitrary timing system that simply said "you will be at your matches when called. After X minutes, you are given a warning" ending with them being DQed from bracket. You can do the same with time between matches.

This is the rule I personally use:

• Breaks from tournament matches are limited to a reasonable timeframe as determined by the TO on location. In the middle of a set, this is one 2 minute break per set. If you continually stall between matches to rest your mind/hands or calm your nerves, it will make the tournament drag on. Consistent offenders will be DQed from bracket with no refund at the TOs discretion. Be ready for your matches!

2 minutes per set isn't that big of a deal and typically won't be used -- if it is, it's to go to the bathroom, wash their hands, or stop a panic attack after losing a close match. A few may use it to think about stages, characters, etc., but that's okay. If someone like M2K comes along and says "give me a Dr Pepper or I won't play", insta-DQ and he's out of bracket -- the guy in loser's that would have to play him gets a bye and M2K learns to not do that anymore.

Custom moves may be easily known by the player. Maybe they're going to be complex. I don't know, we'll see over time. If it becomes a large issue we can tackle it then -- for now there's really no issue at hand that couldn't be solved by the rule I posted above.

The amount of problems that can be solved by TOs saying "(player name), this is your 2 minute warning. Report to your match or you are DQed" is huge.

 

[Neo Zero]

In a non custom environment, couldn't we just limit them to their 1:1:1:1 special move choices. After all, that's what Palutena is forced to and she has the same gimmick.

Additionally, the 3DS version at least comes with 6 default Mii's a player can use. The top 3 being the "main" mascot Mii's of Brawler, Swordsman, and Gunner. If you wanted to keep it as simple as possible, you could always match the corresponding mascot Mii to their corresponding class, have them pick the 1st of all special Mii's, and call it a character. Would certainly be the simplest way of using them, barring only allowing one Mii to be all 3 classes..

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I have begun to grow concerned for the likelihood of Mii Fighters as a tournament viable option.

I did some extensive research on other tournament worn fighters that have had custom fighter options, namely the Soul Calibur franchise and Mortal Kombat.

Very historically, custom fighters have been banned in both titles. No matter the specifics of each games creation modules it would seem that the current and flow of the modern day FGC as it is today would seem completely uninclined to allow Mii Fighters.

There is a character that works similarly to Mii Fighter in Soul Calibur known as Devil-Jin. The character essentially requires the creation of a custom character to be used, and the Create-a-soul system allows modification of height and weight. In an almost parallel existence to the current discussion on the Mii Fighter, Devil-Jin was universally banned due to the difficulties of people using their wanted specification of him, and the hitboxes being inconsistent, giving the player of said character possibly a slight advantage due to changing up their proportions from tournament to tournament (the element of utter unpredictability in the tiniest of portions). These are, literally, 1-3 frame (I mean this in the distance sense) advantages that make all the difference to top players.

I don't think this spells doom for custom moves at all, as I equate those similarly to choosing specials in UMVC3 or something of the like, but right now it's not looking so hot for Mii Fighter, both from a tradition-abiding and logical perspective.

This issue is that even if we want to dictate specific sizes and weights for a Mii Fighter main, we are truly underestimating the potential time sink of this sort of specificity and attention to detail. I am severely against implementing rules solely based off of the goal of shortening tournament times, but I think this goes a bit in to a further territory of being excessive. Custom moves, IMO, remain completely capable of being viable, keeping Palutena in the clear.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

which is why we ban everything but min, max and default

you can even give them witty names to distinguish the three

minnie, max and john

/emotionalhealth.jpg

 

[Overswarm]

"we should remove (game aspect) to shorten tournament times" is never, ever a good reason on its own -- it's too vague.

Regardless, it's literally the perfect setup for Mii Fighters for the 3DS version.

"All Miis must be created prior to your tournament match -- you may alter custom moves, but not Mii status (such as weight, height) after your set has been called"

/done

 

[Deleted member 245254]

"we should remove (game aspect) to shorten tournament times" is never, ever a good reason on its own -- it's too vague.

Regardless, it's literally the perfect setup for Mii Fighters for the 3DS version.

"All Miis must be created prior to your tournament match -- you may alter custom moves, but not Mii status (such as weight, height) after your set has been called"

/done

If Mii's are to be legal, I certainly don't think the specifications of their size should simply be left to the player for anything they want. We would need to have a "tournament viable" setting.

I stated myself that tournament times should never be the sole reason for cutting a game element, but it isn't the sole element here. It is a pain in the ass in general. Even if a player says their Mii is tournament legal we would still have to check anyhow.

それはめんどうくさいね。。。

 

[Overswarm]

If Mii's are to be legal, I certainly don't think the specifications of their size should simply be left to the player for anything they want. We would need to have a "tournament viable" setting.

Why?

Things don't need to have rules just because they have options -- we have no data whatsoever on the Mii Figher's effectiveness on any setting.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Why?

Things don't need to have rules just because they have options -- we have no data whatsoever on the Mii Figher's effectiveness on any setting.

Well, it depends on where you've resigned the 3DS version as a competitive fighter.

I suppose depending on what type of stage you plan to see he 3DS version on could affect your classification of what's "OK" and what's not.

They wouldn't be rules on options simply because they are options, it would be rules on options because said options are pain in the butt to regulate and discuss at a meta-level.

At the end of the day it's a subject that will be met with debate and many feel that if it's an issue to that level then it's maybe not worth the effort to entertain.

 

[Overswarm]

options, it would be rules on options because said options are pain in the butt to regulate and discuss at a meta-level.

Someone else might want to pick a character and you are entertaining the idea of banning them because it might be a problem in the future to regulate or discuss?

You shouldn't be suggesting this kind of stuff at all when you have literally no information on the subject whatsoever to provide. You're blowing hot air right now about something that could be an issue down the road but we have no idea. It's not very constructive and potentially dangerous.

What is with everyone being rule happy? Prior to the game's release people have already decided to champion banning equipment, custom moves, Mii Fighters save for the shortest, tallest, and middle height and weights, Mii Fighters entirely, all Miis but the default, Palutena specials, G&W and pikachu team, double villager teams, every stage but FD, all FDs, all stages but three to five, doubles itself, and games over two stock.

These kinds of suggestions like "oh man, Mii Fighters could be an issue" are very easy to think up and they're good to be aware of... but the next step isn't discussing "should we ban Mii Fighters" but rather "What data do we need to have to determine if Miis are going to be an issue" and then collecting that information.

Yes, Miis might be a pain. But saying "ugh, my opponent wants to create a Mii" should lead to banning them entirely is a pretty selfish action. Someone might want to play as that character and until we have data to go off of we shouldn't be making plans or conclusions of any sort.

Imagine if Miis actually ARE an annoyance at tournaments. Say it takes 2 minutes for someone to make their Mii on the Wii U version. In what scenario does this constitute banning them?

If Miis aren't popular after the dust settles, then it's a non-issue. You'd have maybe one or two guys using 'em.

If Mii's are popular, banning them is counter productive because people want to play as them.

The only time it is actually a concrete issue is when you're in some hazy middle ground.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

well for what it's worth it takes at least 2 minutes for the wii u console to power up

Also the idea zipzo is talking about is less "it takes time to set up" but more "hey allowing any variant of mii introduces a **** TONNE of variance in mii attributes"

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Someone else might want to pick a character and you are entertaining the idea of banning them because it might be a problem in the future to regulate or discuss?

You shouldn't be suggesting this kind of stuff at all when you have literally no information on the subject whatsoever to provide. You're blowing hot air right now about something that could be an issue down the road but we have no idea. It's not very constructive and potentially dangerous.

What is with everyone being rule happy? Prior to the game's release people have already decided to champion banning equipment, custom moves, Mii Fighters save for the shortest, tallest, and middle height and weights, Mii Fighters entirely, all Miis but the default, Palutena specials, G&W and pikachu team, double villager teams, every stage but FD, all FDs, all stages but three to five, doubles itself, and games over two stock.

These kinds of suggestions like "oh man, Mii Fighters could be an issue" are very easy to think up and they're good to be aware of... but the next step isn't discussing "should we ban Mii Fighters" but rather "What data do we need to have to determine if Miis are going to be an issue" and then collecting that information.

Yes, Miis might be a pain. But saying "ugh, my opponent wants to create a Mii" should lead to banning them entirely is a pretty selfish action. Someone might want to play as that character and until we have data to go off of we shouldn't be making plans or conclusions of any sort.

Imagine if Miis actually ARE an annoyance at tournaments. Say it takes 2 minutes for someone to make their Mii on the Wii U version. In what scenario does this constitute banning them?

If Miis aren't popular after the dust settles, then it's a non-issue. You'd have maybe one or two guys using 'em.

If Mii's are popular, banning them is counter productive because people want to play as them.

The only time it is actually a concrete issue is when you're in some hazy middle ground.

It isn't just me you are attempting to verbally trounce here. I'm only citing years of actual circumstantial evidence, discussion, and meta evolution from other fighters and their tournament scenes where custom characters have historically been unwelcome for a specific, shared and corroborated set of reasons.

You're free to argue that each of these communities are all blind and ridiculous and fail to bring logic to the table, but it's only their perspective I meant to bring to light. I said I was concerned for the future of Mii legality, I never stated emphatically what I wanted, I never "entertained" anything.