Mii Fighters are NOT Custom Characters: an in-depth look at the Mii Fighter Dilema

[T4ylor]

Judging by the "ヽ( ͡°╭͜ʖ╮͡° )ﾉ", this looks like Anther's ladder. Same sort of circular argument as usual. The guy just won't budge on making them anything but 1-1-1-1.

So why make a new thread for this when there's 4 other similar topics?

 

[wizrad]

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html
Read this page. It explicitly states that Miis do not have "custom special attacks". This, unlike Palutena, is consistent with the in game rulings. Furthermore, look at GimR's video, we don't have customs banned, we have custom fighters set to off. And Miis aren't custom fighters.

And no, you can't ban them because they're under the "custom" menu and you "don't play with customs", like soMe eVil iDiots think they can. That's not a reason. We don't play 1P modes either, but you're still expected to have every stage unlocked.

 

[zephyrnereus]

So far, I have only seen one anti-mii argument that I could agree with, which was posted in my regional facebook group:

I've read the post and most of the comments. So I will try to provide you with my own analysis of the topic and my own personal opinion.

In considering your argument, I feel that there isn't enough evidence to support your proposition. This mainly stems from your use of definitions without considering the exceptions to your claims. I will do my best to be as concise as possible since this thread has a ton of reading already.

The major challenge with your argument is that it suffers from argumentative fallacies. In defining what a custom character is, you cited Chibo's definition of a custom character. This suffers from three fallacies: false attribution, and affirming a disjunct, and false dilemma.

False attribution occurs when you appeal to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased, or fabricated source in support of an argument (Wikipedia). In this case, you've appealed to Chibo's definition which in itself isn't necessarily wrong, but it suffers because it's ultimately an anecdotal argument. It doesn't stem from an official source, but the interpretation of the information provided by the game. The definition is then generalized as though it did originate from an official source. So, the challenge here can be summarized as, "That's the definition? Says who?"

As with the definition itself, it falls to two problems; affirming a disjunct, and a false dilemma. It affrims a disjunct by supposing that the definition is either A or B, but not both. There isn't any evidence to support that the definition of a custom character isn't both A and B. A false dilemma occurs when you presuppose that there are a limited number of options when there is at least one additional option that you haven't considered. Perhaps you didn't consider that a custom character must be made from the customs menu, or a custom character is capable of changing the way they are played through a mechanic that is outside of the game's battle system. In any case, the definitions provided are unsatisfactory and require deeper exploration. This can be summarized in two sentences, "Why can't it be both?" and, "Who says there aren't more stipulations?"

As for the Mii's different specials as an inherent part of the character, this is also unsatisfactory. The biggest challenge with this is that there is a lack of evidence to support that claim, and what evidence there is is also anecdotal evidence. "How did we come to the conclusion that custom moves are their gameplay gimmick? Who came to that conclusion? What criteria was used to make that claim?" We do have stipulations on the way we play the game already, but those are set by us as a competitive community with empirical evidence behind it and purpose as well, in regards to time, effort, and skill.

None of this states that Miis shouldn't be allowed beyond their 1111 moveset, that would be fallacious in itself. I'm not even claiming that your conclusion is wrong. Personally, I love it when there are more strong characters, and I would love to see the Miis played with their strongest set. But unfortunately, currently, there are too many stipulations that must be set before Miis can be used. You'd still have to provide a satisfactory answer as to why Miis are capable of changing their specials while other characters cannot, why Miis are able to use the strongest variation in their moveset while other characters cannot, etc.

Beyond what you've written, a major challenge that you're facing with your argument is that you're presenting it with facts and definitions in hopes that it'll sway the masses. As you can see, this won't exactly work. The need to meet definitions and criteria don't exist when debating with emotionally-driven creatures. Frankly, you're just arguing for it in the wrong way.

TLDR: we need concrete proof that states Miis don't have custom moves, and that they were designed with all 12 moves in mind (customizing their moveset is their own "gimmick").

That link is the proof we needed. There is pretty much nothing against Miis now besides lack of knowledge and personal bias.

This is another good quote from a pro-mii argument:

When ganon side bs someone offstage, the game says ganon wins, we accept this because the game says so.

When bowser side bs someone offstage, bowser loses, we accept this, because the game says so.

When (and this happened to me last week) someone gets star ko'd and while they are in the background before they disappear, the other guy hits the blastzone and explodes, we accept that the guy who got star KOd wins, because the game says so.

The only times we dont explicit take the word of the game as law, is when there is a specific, anti competitive game breaking NEED to fix something. Such as when a game ends in a tie. 300% sudden death with bob ombs is completely antithetical to the idea of a 1 v 1 skill based head to head fight. So we had to make a rule against what the game says in the case of a tie.

If there is not a game breaking anti competitive aspect to the miis movesets, theres no reason they shouldnt have access to alternate specials with customs set to off when the game says they can.

 

[wizrad]

I wish there was a way to disable star KOs ):

I also wish there was a way to disable unreasonable opinions ):

 

[Nobie]

I honestly think all of these "scientific" attempts at checkmating the opposition into HAVING to include full Mii movesets or restricting them to 1-1-1-1 are ultimately kind of useless and arbitrary. As stated in this thread a couple posts up, people prefer to define terms however they want, and this just muddies the conversation because everyone thinks their argument is ironclad ("THE MENU IS ON MY SIDE!").

Ultimately, what I think Mii Fighter arguments all come down to is something more emotional that shouldn't be just denied in favor of trying to find an objective master point. That is, Mii users (as far as I can tell) do not get any satisfaction out of using 1-1-1-1's. They are not gratifying to play, and they don't feel like complete characters. I think this is something important that shouldn't be lost in the shuffle.

At the same time, I wonder if there can't still be some compromise. It's unlikely that all Mii players can ever decide on a single moveset 100% because different people prefer different kits, but what if a Mii moveset satisfied at least 50% of 99% of a Mii's player base in terms of the moves they want? For example, if Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump are preferred by the vast majority of Mii Brawlers, would it be that much of an issue to try and find some middle ground in the other two specials?

 

[19_]

At the same time, I wonder if there can't still be some compromise. It's unlikely that all Mii players can ever decide on a single moveset 100% because different people prefer different kits, but what if a Mii moveset satisfied at least 50% of 99% of a Mii's player base in terms of the moves they want? For example, if Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump are preferred by the vast majority of Mii Brawlers, would it be that much of an issue to try and find some middle ground in the other two specials?

For mii brawler it is much easier to come up 1 set because of what dapuffser did with the character. With the x122 moveset he really did standardize mii brawler's meta. But with the other two...

I honestly believe if there is a way to make a universal sets for these characters is to have them be freed in the first place. How can we standardize the characters if there is no way to see how the different movesets work in tournament?

 

[zephyrnereus]

At the same time, I wonder if there can't still be some compromise. It's unlikely that all Mii players can ever decide on a single moveset 100% because different people prefer different kits, but what if a Mii moveset satisfied at least 50% of 99% of a Mii's player base in terms of the moves they want? For example, if Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump are preferred by the vast majority of Mii Brawlers, would it be that much of an issue to try and find some middle ground in the other two specials?

Pretty much the only character that would benefit from a single moveset is Brawler. I know that most of gunner's moves are equally viable. (Although upb 1 is considered the best, upb 2 gives amazing kill power and gimping opportunities in exchange for less recovery, and upb 3 has the best recovery of the 3 distance wise. Gunner also has the best counterpick move potential of the three, with a reflector, energy absorber, or bombs to choose from as a down b.) Sadly, I don't know enough to throw in my opinion on swordfighter.

I honestly think all of these "scientific" attempts at checkmating the opposition into HAVING to include full Mii movesets or restricting them to 1-1-1-1 are ultimately kind of useless and arbitrary. As stated in this thread a couple posts up, people prefer to define terms however they want, and this just muddies the conversation because everyone thinks their argument is ironclad ("THE MENU IS ON MY SIDE!").

Ultimately, what I think Mii Fighter arguments all come down to is something more emotional that shouldn't be just denied in favor of trying to find an objective master point. That is, Mii users (as far as I can tell) do not get any satisfaction out of using 1-1-1-1's. They are not gratifying to play, and they don't feel like complete characters. I think this is something important that shouldn't be lost in the shuffle.

I would use the argument of the emotional aspect when using a mii fighter if it wasn't for the fact that I get ridiculed and called a "whiner" because I can't make my "special snowflake" in smash bros. The only way I've seen that I can get actual opinions and results is through cold, hard facts. And even then, I still get ridiculed. This is my personal experience after sharing this thread to my regional group. I have been able to get a lot of support and change a lot of minds with this point of view though, including my closer friends who were very much against free miis. I still agree that this emotional aspect should not be forgotten.

 

[wizrad]

I honestly think all of these "scientific" attempts at checkmating the opposition into HAVING to include full Mii movesets or restricting them to 1-1-1-1 are ultimately kind of useless and arbitrary. As stated in this thread a couple posts up, people prefer to define terms however they want, and this just muddies the conversation because everyone thinks their argument is ironclad ("THE MENU IS ON MY SIDE!").

I will agree that some people believe that their arguments are ironclad when they are not. But there are some objective facts involved here. In fact, there are quite a few:
- Mii Fighters are differentiated from every other character in the game in that they have access to alternate special moves
- Mii Fighters are not considered custom fighters
- Mii Fighters are not considered to have custom specials
- Mii Fighters are grouped under the custom menu along with custom fighters
- There is no option to disable Mii Fighters or their specials
- There is an option to disable custom fighters
- The game is the base of the competitive scene
Pretty much all of these facts are in favor of the idea that there must be solid, fact-based reasoning to restrict Mii Fighters with an out-of-game ruling. I haven't heard any of that coming from the anti-Mii side, just people claiming it is "unfair" and that "Brawler is OP" or that "we don't play with customs".

 

[T0MMY]

I'm fine with Miis being legalized. However, if they get the option of different custom (call them whatever you want. It IS what they are) moves and sets then so should the other characters.

My opinion is and will always be either Miis get 1111 OR specific custom movesets should be allowed FOR ALL characters. Three characters getting special treatment is unacceptable to me.

I don't care for the "they aren't overpowered anyway so why not?" argument either. With that logic custom moves would be legal for all characters because no character is "overpowered."

Throw out all the definitions you want. Throw out the "oh but you don't have to click a button on the top right of the character select so it should be ok for us!" argument all you like. I does not change the facts.

Miis should not have customs unless everyone else does.

Before I can even start to listen to your argument you will have to prove the Mii are custom fighters getting special treatment. The game clearly seems to disagree with the custom fighter argument, and I am more inclined to believe the game (which has received multiple patched to fix oversights and never changed this, too obvious to be overlooked if it was an oversight). The game, designer, and dev team responsible for balancing characters all seem to disagree with your customs argument. Do you have some kind of exemplary evidence that can stand up to the game, the dev team, and the creators' final product... or do you just think your opinion is enough for a competitive community to take on faith?

 

[Murlough]

Before I can even start to listen to your argument you will have to prove the Mii are custom fighters getting special treatment. The game clearly seems to disagree with the custom fighter argument, and I am more inclined to believe the game (which has received multiple patched to fix oversights and never changed this, too obvious to be overlooked if it was an oversight). The game, designer, and dev team responsible for balancing characters all seem to disagree with your customs argument. Do you have some kind of exemplary evidence that can stand up to the game, the dev team, and the creators' final product... or do you just think your opinion is enough for a competitive community to take on faith?

I don't have to prove jack ****.

You change them just like custom moves. They are seperate options just like every other characters custom moves. They have the EXACT SAME NUMBER as custom moves for each character.

They are the same as customs REGARDLESS of whether they are actually called that or not. Whether you can tack on the term "customs" to the them is irrelevent.

My point is (you all ignore this but I'll put it anyway) every character should have the same rules applied to them. Miis can be legal for sure but they absolutely can't have a variety of options to choose from while every other character has to stick to thier base options. The idea is unfair, plain and simple.

And the games defining of customs is irrelevent as we don't listen to it anyway. Do we use items? No? Well there goes that argument.

I don't know what you are talking about with your "blind faith" comment. Either learn how to present a real argument or don't pester me.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And the games defining of customs is irrelevent as we don't listen to it anyway. Do we use items? No? Well there goes that argument.

Nitpicknitpick
We DO use items, we just prevent the game from randomly spawning them.


I don't really understand how people are amazed at japanese players' ability to control items despite their own characters don't spawn them. We all have the option to practice them, we just don't use it.

 

[Yikarur]

My point is (you all ignore this but I'll put it anyway) every character should have the same rules applied to them.

So you agree that no character should get extra rules?

 

[Murlough]

Nitpicknitpick
We DO use items, we just prevent the game from randomly spawning them.


I don't really understand how people are amazed at japanese players' ability to control items despite their own characters don't spawn them. We all have the option to practice them, we just don't use it.

Yes, I watched Gimr's video too. And I'm not nitpicking. I still stand by my opinion that Miis should not get special treatment.

So you agree that no character should get extra rules?

.....I feel that this is bait or I'm missing some exception to the rule.....Ryu is all I can think of but he is still using his base moveset....

Well screw it, if you are going to make me look like a fool then so be it. Yes, no character should be allowed to have extra rules for them. If we legalize customs I don't have a problem with miis using their's, but if everyone else is stuck with a less optimal base set then so should the miis.

I like consistency and fairness (or at least my perception of fairness.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yes, I watched Gimr's video too. And I'm not nitpicking. I still stand by my opinion that Miis should not get special treatment.

I was the one nitpicking.
And I didn't say it because of GIMR. I could care less about his video because it's yet another loop to the circle discussion we've always had.
And it's circular because no side seems to flinch even a little bit to the other's argument.


The main problem lies in that while the whole debate is still undecided, the default is towards one side, which means they've won as long as they don't accept the other's proposal.

 

[wizrad]

Yes, no character should be allowed to have extra rules for them.

Then why do you believe that there should be extra rules in place for Miis?

 

[Murlough]

Then why do you believe that there should be extra rules in place for Miis?

............what? I'm saying everyone should have the same restrictions. If Miis get more options with their customs (it is what they are. You can call them whatever you like. It does not change reality) then every character should. End of story. Miis should not be allowed special treatment for any reason, let alone such a silly one.

 

[wizrad]

customs (it is what they are. You can call them whatever you like. It does not change reality)

Are... are you serious? Because there is evidence against you and none for you. The Smash 4 website differentiates between custom specials and Mii specials. No combination of special moves will ever grant a Mii with the tag of "Custom Fighter" in game. You are wrong. This is not a matter of opinion, this is one of fact. Miis do not have custom special moves.

Secondly, even if their specials were considered customs, an additional out of game ruling would have to be made in order to keep Miis from making use of their "customs" when the "Custom Fighters" switch is set to off. I don't see how you don't understand this.

 

[Murlough]

Are... are you serious? Because there is evidence against you and none for you. The Smash 4 website differentiates between custom specials and Mii specials. No combination of special moves will ever grant a Mii with the tag of "Custom Fighter" in game. You are wrong. This is not a matter of opinion, this is one of fact. Miis do not have custom special moves.

Secondly, even if their specials were considered customs, an additional out of game ruling would have to be made in order to keep Miis from making use of their "customs" when the "Custom Fighters" switch is set to off. I don't see how you don't understand this.

Yes....yes I am.

I don't care what the Smash 4 website says.

They do the same thing as customs: provide different moves to a character. Like I have already said: whether you use the term custom or not is irrelevent. The "specials" perform the same function as "customs" for other characters.

Then make the new rule. I don't care how or why so long as it is done. Miis should not be allowed to have a variety of options that other characters cannot also have. If miis can use their "specials" (AKA customs) then other characters should be allowed to use their customs.

 

[wizrad]

You must really be used to getting your way. You want to completely disregard the base of our competitive community, the game itself, and make an additional out of game ruling because... well, no reason. Just because you want to. You've said that Miis shouldn't have their specials because the others characters don't get their customs. I say that Ryu shouldn't get his heavy tilts because the other characters don't get their customs.

Whether the other characters get their customs is completely unrelated to whether Miis get access to their full range of special moves. You can say whatever the hell you want, but Miis don't have custom moves. It's not like "custom moves" is a term that we just made up. It is defined by the game and its creators repeatedly and in many different contexts. And it does not include Mii specials. Just because they do the same thing doesn't make them the same. And they don't do the same thing. Custom specials are "variations" upon the original special move. Mii (and Palutena) specials are "completely unique types of attacks".

Wanna know why I used quotes? Because I'm citing a primary source. Not my opinion. Not someone else's opinion. It is a source which dictates the facts of the game, and here it is: http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html . But wait, I forgot, you "don't care" about the reality in which people are supposed to use to support their arguments. I guess that's why you completely fail to support your point of view whatsoever.

Just because you say something does not make it so. You did not create this game, you did not create the Mii Fighters, and you did not create custom specials. The Smash 4 development team did, and that's why they're the ones who dictate basic facts in this area. Denying that Mii specials aren't custom specials is the same thing as denying that Little Mac has super armor on his smash attacks, or denying that Mega Man's jab, forward tilt, and neutral air are very similar variations on one move.

 

[Murlough]

I'm arguing my opinion because it is my opinion. If you don't like it then argue with someone else.

Miis should not get special treatment. Period. I don't understand why you think that is right besides "the game developers said so." THEY HAVE NO SAY.

You are arguing that Miis specials are not customs. FINE. They aren't. Fantastic. They still should not be allowed to change their moveset however they feel like when every other character has to stick to one option.

I'm using logic. You are giving facts that don't matter. They simply dance around my point. Use whatever definition you like. Call them what you want. The end result is the same thing.

 

[wizrad]

Wow. Wow. You're right, Miis should not get special treatment, so why are you arguing that we should be treating Miis specially? Answer the question for once, Trump.

ALSO, YOU ARE NOT USING ANY LOGIC. You have failed to present any evidence to support any of your claims and all you've done is say "I don't care what these facts say, my opinion is right because it's my opinion". You're either incredibly dense or incredibly ignorant.

 

[Murlough]

Wow. Wow. You're right, Miis should not get special treatment, so why are you arguing that we should be treating Miis specially? Answer the question for once, Trump.

ALSO, YOU ARE NOT USING ANY LOGIC. You have failed to present any evidence to support any of your claims and all you've done is say "I don't care what these facts say, my opinion is right because it's my opinion". You're either incredibly dense or incredibly ignorant.

You are the one not addressing my argument not the other way around.

I'll state this one more time for you: Miis should not be allowed to alter their movesets as they see fit while other characters are forced to stick to their base options.

Attack me as a person all you want. I'm not ignorant, dense, and certainly not ****ing Trump.

If you got a problem with me for having an opposing opinion from yours then get the **** off the internet.

EDIT: I get the feeling you are confused. I don't care if Miis get their alternate moves. If they do then I'll adapt. Not a big deal. I wouldn't agree with the decision for it though.

I'm not giving cold hard facts because this isn't that type of argument. There is no "correct" answer at the end of the day. I believe Miis should'nt have extra options other characters don't get to have.

I'm not arguing about what the game says or what the developers say because Sakurai wanted this game to be a party game. The default settings are time limit with items.

The developers DO NOT HAVE A SAY IN THIS COMPETITIVE COMMUNITY. So with that said, what they wanted for Miis is irrelevent to us.

I'm looking at it from a perspective of equality. Why should Miis be allowed to have multiple different sets while everyone else is screwed?

They shouldn't.

 

[19_]

This debate between you two really proves that there is no factual basis for either argument.

I think the REAL decider to this argument is which is is better for the competitive scene.

Which rule do you think will bring in more people to a tournament?

 

[Murlough]

I honestly don't think it makes much of a difference.

If those in favor don't get what they want then they will likely settle with base Miis or pick another character.

A few may leave but......yeah.

Then if those opposed don't get what they want (Miis are friid and have access to any variation of their moveset) then many Mii players will be happy and play Miis in tournament. Some may even switch over to Miis for their main.

I guess its possible some may leave because of miis but......yeah.

I can't give my thoughts on spectator reaction towards this.

 

[19_]

I honestly don't think it makes much of a difference.

If those in favor don't get what they want then they will likely settle with base Miis or pick another character.

A few may leave but......yeah.

Then if those opposed don't get what they want (Miis are friid and have access to any variation of their moveset) then many Mii players will be happy and play Miis in tournament. Some may even switch over to Miis for their main.

I guess its possible some may leave because of miis but......yeah.

I can't give my thoughts on spectator reaction towards this.

If the only smash 4 tournament that you could reach had miis with full move options would YOU still go?

 

[Murlough]

If the only smash 4 tournament that you could reach had miis with full move options would YOU still go?

Will it certainly wouldn't be a dealbreaker.

So yes.

 

[T0MMY]

So far, I have only seen one anti-mii argument that I could agree with, which was posted in my regional facebook group:

I cannot get behind that argument you reposted from your regional group. The simple reason is because it focuses on fallacy that really doesn't apply to pro-mii argument side. The strongest argument we have is not that we are arguing the Mii are NOT customs of any kind, the argument is that we compete within the framework of the Competitive Arena - rules have long been established that we take the game for what it is and try to see who is best at fighting it out within the selected rules. This is why there is no argument from either side when Custom Fighters is set to "ON" - not because they are being defined as Customs, but because there is a ruling for the game setting; if there was a ruling that stated Custom Fighters: "OFF" instead of "Customs banned" then there would be a much clearer understanding! Because "Customs" don't actually exist in the game, so it leaves competitors to create their own definitions, and competitors are notorious for trying to game the odds in their favor.
Because of this framework we do NOT argue against the idea the Mii fighters are "customs" (they very well could be by whoever is creating a definition for an out-of-game term!), what we simply argue for is to preserve the Competitive Standard that we fundamentally compete by: No character shall be banned nor restricted without warrant (born of sound reasoning). To violate this is to reside in the area of the Scrub where rules can just be slung without reason (stop spamming me! That's so cheap! It's not FAY-ER!)

The simple rebuttal to the argument is "Burden of Proof". It is not our job to prove that we are using "customs". What we simply point out is that Custom Fighters "OFF" still allow for Mii to be used as usual and by competitive practice they should be exploited to their fullest potential, anything less than that is disrespectful to the spirit of competition and competitive rulesets should be stating "Custom Fighters: OFF" without any special treatment for the Mii fighters until warranted.

It is rather unnecessary, but I can go into more detail about why I do not agree with the argument you presented from your regional group (contained in spoiler tags):

Spoiler

I agree that appealing to Chibo's definition is a false attribution. The catch-22 from anti-Mii is that if we quote from an official source then the community will say "Developers don't matter". If we quote from the community then it's "not official".
This is why pointing out the burden of proof is the better position. We do not make claims, we simply uphold the traditions of competition - anyone who says that something should be banned/restricted WITHOUT reason are to be seen as scrubs and allowed to play in the scrub fights, leaving true competition to those holding to a Competitive Standard.

As for the False Dilemma. I go by what is real, what can be objectively observed, tested, and repeated by any of us with the standard software. The software built of code is the reality I work with, if we cannot make the game itself a standard then we have absolutely no reason to have competition to begin with. So with this I simply point out the obvious toggle ON/OFF of the Custom Fighter button. This is not a false Dilemma, this is pure code. Custom Fighters either are being used or they are not. The rules shall reflect this (either is fine for competition, but that is outside the argument). Point being that if the toggle button is OFF the Mii are still usable in every way except the Custom parts (i.e. Equipment).
This doesn't mean that some arbitrary definition of "Customs" does not have an anything-goes definition of whatever we want to set for it. Rulesets that use "Customs" are inviting potential issues. Which is why I stress the rules simply state "Custom Fighters: OFF" (or "ON" for a Custom Fighter competition).

False dilemma does not apply at this point. The game runs in an expected manner and the ruleset should reflect it unless warranted. Mii can be made in the manner they are made and are allowed by the rules. Any rules that ban or restrict them must do so only if warranted, and as far as I can tell there has been no warrant given. Therefore these rulesets would be seen as "scrubby" and competitors should avoid the events or have the rules changed unless a TO provides a sound case for the rulings.

This is flat-out wrong by the competitive creed that the game should be exploited to its fullest so that all bans/restrictions can be proven warranted:
"You'd still have to provide a satisfactory answer as to why Miis are capable of changing their specials while other characters cannot, why Miis are able to use the strongest variation in their moveset while other characters cannot, etc."

Mii fighters do NOT need some kind of out-of-game ruling that blesses them with extra moves. This is the game itself that allows for that. Clearly there are out-of-game rulings that are restricting this. And that can be just fine, but only when given warrant (Think about it, even Items were honored with the respect of using them in competitions and thus proven it would be beneficial for competition to turn them OFF! Why are three characters not given at least the respect given to randomly spawning/exploding elements?)

TLDR: we need concrete proof that states Miis don't have custom moves, and that they were designed with all 12 moves in mind (customizing their moveset is their own "gimmick").

TL;DR: No we don't. Burden of proof is on anyone making a claim to impose out-of-game rulings. This is a creed of competition, to deny this gives right to deny playing with someone at all (you'd be playing completely different games, might as well be playing poker or tiddly winks).

That link is the proof we needed. There is pretty much nothing against Miis now besides lack of knowledge and personal bias.

I disagree! I do not see this as proof! (yes, I am on your side, so maybe hear me out?)

I believe you misquoted it (inferring it was stated as customs).
What was posted on that official page is as follows (retrieved 3/4/2016):

"However, Mii Fighters and Palutena don't have spin-off variations, but rather completely unique types of attacks."​

Stating the characters in question do not have "spin-off variations".
It does not say they do not have "customs".

This doesn't mean our argument is invalid (remember, burden of proof is not on us!). However, this also helps to explain why Palutena is considered a Custom Fighter when the Custom Fighter is turned ON.
(Although it is not explicitly stated, I feel confident that Mega Man would also be considered not using "spin-off variations" as well!)

This is another good quote from a pro-mii argument:

Although I can agree with most of it, I will not agree with the statement made regarding Sudden Death. It does not follow.

I don't have to prove jack ****.

Well, duh, you don't have to prove anything.
You can just waltz right in here and sing whatever song you want.

However, if you want to convince me of anything logically then spitting opinion is not going to do the trick. I am telling this to you for your benefit (or at least the benefit of our conversation). So, unless you like to hear yourself talk then you are wasting your time with me.
I try to avoid mixing up opinion with intelligent logical arguments when it comes to rules.

My point is (you all ignore this but I'll put it anyway) every character should have the same rules applied to them. Miis can be legal for sure but they absolutely can't have a variety of options to choose from while every other character has to stick to thier base options. The idea is unfair, plain and simple.

If every character should have the same rule applied to them then show me what rule you think has been used to benefit the Mii unfairly; Show me - link me to a source!

For every rule you link me to showing an unfair advantage for Mii then I can link you to 3 showing an unfair restriction on the Mii and only on the Mii, not applying to ALL characters!

And by your word, I'd think you'd be outraged that there are rules being pushed on these characters which do not apply to all characters!

I don't know what you are talking about with your "blind faith" comment. Either learn how to present a real argument or don't pester me.

Let me help you understand:
Any claims must have compelling evidence. To make a claim to rules without evidence is simply asking me to accept on blind faith (no proof, no reasoning, nothing... just like being blindfolded and accepting where you lead me on faith alone).

If you refuse to provide any evidence to be examined then the words are simply just opinion.
Opinion does not determine rules.

So blind faith claims are just considered opinions and are ultimately ignored and die at the wayside while the stronger arguments continue well into the future.

 

[Dinoman96]

(Although it is not explicitly stated, I feel confident that Mega Man would also be considered not using "spin-off variations" as well!)

They are spinoff variations though. All of his customs use the same exact animations as his defaults, just like the rest of the cast. It's just that MM had generally more effort put into the presentation of his specials, but they're not fully unique in the same way Palutena and the Mii Fighters are.

 

[Murlough]

I cannot get behind that argument you reposted from your regional group. The simple reason is because it focuses on fallacy that really doesn't apply to pro-mii argument side. The strongest argument we have is not that we are arguing the Mii are NOT customs of any kind, the argument is that we compete within the framework of the Competitive Arena - rules have long been established that we take the game for what it is and try to see who is best at fighting it out within the selected rules. This is why there is no argument from either side when Custom Fighters is set to "ON" - not because they are being defined as Customs, but because there is a ruling for the game setting; if there was a ruling that stated Custom Fighters: "OFF" instead of "Customs banned" then there would be a much clearer understanding! Because "Customs" don't actually exist in the game, so it leaves competitors to create their own definitions, and competitors are notorious for trying to game the odds in their favor.
Because of this framework we do NOT argue against the idea the Mii fighters are "customs" (they very well could be by whoever is creating a definition for an out-of-game term!), what we simply argue for is to preserve the Competitive Standard that we fundamentally compete by: No character shall be banned nor restricted without warrant (born of sound reasoning). To violate this is to reside in the area of the Scrub where rules can just be slung without reason (stop spamming me! That's so cheap! It's not FAY-ER!)

The simple rebuttal to the argument is "Burden of Proof". It is not our job to prove that we are using "customs". What we simply point out is that Custom Fighters "OFF" still allow for Mii to be used as usual and by competitive practice they should be exploited to their fullest potential, anything less than that is disrespectful to the spirit of competition and competitive rulesets should be stating "Custom Fighters: OFF" without any special treatment for the Mii fighters until warranted.

It is rather unnecessary, but I can go into more detail about why I do not agree with the argument you presented from your regional group (contained in spoiler tags):

Spoiler

I agree that appealing to Chibo's definition is a false attribution. The catch-22 from anti-Mii is that if we quote from an official source then the community will say "Developers don't matter". If we quote from the community then it's "not official".
This is why pointing out the burden of proof is the better position. We do not make claims, we simply uphold the traditions of competition - anyone who says that something should be banned/restricted WITHOUT reason are to be seen as scrubs and allowed to play in the scrub fights, leaving true competition to those holding to a Competitive Standard.

As for the False Dilemma. I go by what is real, what can be objectively observed, tested, and repeated by any of us with the standard software. The software built of code is the reality I work with, if we cannot make the game itself a standard then we have absolutely no reason to have competition to begin with. So with this I simply point out the obvious toggle ON/OFF of the Custom Fighter button. This is not a false Dilemma, this is pure code. Custom Fighters either are being used or they are not. The rules shall reflect this (either is fine for competition, but that is outside the argument). Point being that if the toggle button is OFF the Mii are still usable in every way except the Custom parts (i.e. Equipment).
This doesn't mean that some arbitrary definition of "Customs" does not have an anything-goes definition of whatever we want to set for it. Rulesets that use "Customs" are inviting potential issues. Which is why I stress the rules simply state "Custom Fighters: OFF" (or "ON" for a Custom Fighter competition).

False dilemma does not apply at this point. The game runs in an expected manner and the ruleset should reflect it unless warranted. Mii can be made in the manner they are made and are allowed by the rules. Any rules that ban or restrict them must do so only if warranted, and as far as I can tell there has been no warrant given. Therefore these rulesets would be seen as "scrubby" and competitors should avoid the events or have the rules changed unless a TO provides a sound case for the rulings.

This is flat-out wrong by the competitive creed that the game should be exploited to its fullest so that all bans/restrictions can be proven warranted:
"You'd still have to provide a satisfactory answer as to why Miis are capable of changing their specials while other characters cannot, why Miis are able to use the strongest variation in their moveset while other characters cannot, etc."

Mii fighters do NOT need some kind of out-of-game ruling that blesses them with extra moves. This is the game itself that allows for that. Clearly there are out-of-game rulings that are restricting this. And that can be just fine, but only when given warrant (Think about it, even Items were honored with the respect of using them in competitions and thus proven it would be beneficial for competition to turn them OFF! Why are three characters not given at least the respect given to randomly spawning/exploding elements?)

TL;DR: No we don't. Burden of proof is on anyone making a claim to impose out-of-game rulings. This is a creed of competition, to deny this gives right to deny playing with someone at all (you'd be playing completely different games, might as well be playing poker or tiddly winks).



I disagree! I do not see this as proof! (yes, I am on your side, so maybe hear me out?)

I believe you misquoted it (inferring it was stated as customs).
What was posted on that official page is as follows (retrieved 3/4/2016):

"However, Mii Fighters and Palutena don't have spin-off variations, but rather completely unique types of attacks."​

Stating the characters in question do not have "spin-off variations".
It does not say they do not have "customs".

This doesn't mean our argument is invalid (remember, burden of proof is not on us!). However, this also helps to explain why Palutena is considered a Custom Fighter when the Custom Fighter is turned ON.
(Although it is not explicitly stated, I feel confident that Mega Man would also be considered not using "spin-off variations" as well!)


Although I can agree with most of it, I will not agree with the statement made regarding Sudden Death. It does not follow.


Well, duh, you don't have to prove anything.
You can just waltz right in here and sing whatever song you want.

However, if you want to convince me of anything logically then spitting opinion is not going to do the trick. I am telling this to you for your benefit (or at least the benefit of our conversation). So, unless you like to hear yourself talk then you are wasting your time with me.
I try to avoid mixing up opinion with intelligent logical arguments when it comes to rules.


If every character should have the same rule applied to them then show me what rule you think has been used to benefit the Mii unfairly; Show me - link me to a source!

For every rule you link me to showing an unfair advantage for Mii then I can link you to 3 showing an unfair restriction on the Mii and only on the Mii, not applying to ALL characters!

And by your word, I'd think you'd be outraged that there are rules being pushed on these characters which do not apply to all characters!


Let me help you understand:
Any claims must have compelling evidence. To make a claim to rules without evidence is simply asking me to accept on blind faith (no proof, no reasoning, nothing... just like being blindfolded and accepting where you lead me on faith alone).

If you refuse to provide any evidence to be examined then the words are simply just opinion.
Opinion does not determine rules.

So blind faith claims are just considered opinions and are ultimately ignored and die at the wayside while the stronger arguments continue well into the future.

I'm not reposting everything that I said yesterday so learn to scroll your browser.

 

[HermitHelmet]

I'm not even sure why there's any argument here. Mii Fighters do not have customs, rather that they have a wider range of a moveset. That's just it lol, they're also completely different to Palutena.

 

[Dinoman96]

That's just it lol, they're also completely different to Palutena.

The only difference is that she can't use her customs when customs are off.

Otherwise, they share the fact that A. all of their customs are fully unique and B. they're all available from the start. 2/3 isn't that huge a difference.

 

[HermitHelmet]

The only difference is that she can't use her customs when customs are off.

Otherwise, they share the fact that A. all of their customs are fully unique and B. they're all available from the start. 2/3 isn't that huge a difference.

That is true, however she has a distinct design philosophy behind WHY Autoreticle, Counter, Warp and Reflect are her 1111. All of her Customs are used a different way to the Miis.

For example:

All of Brawler's Neutral Bs are slow, laggy attacks that are punishable but are significantly better at killing than his other moves - they're risky, and they all follow that trend. This could be applied to Gunner's Down Bs, two of which deals with projectiles, one being a Reflector and the other being an Absorber. Or how about Swordfighter's Neutral Bs? Two of them are projectiles that give Swordfighter the stage control that he desparately needs. Other examples exist too, if you want me to list them. None of Palutena's moves that are mapped to the same button follow any sort of pattern, (except for the fact that her Up-Bs are used as recovery which can be said for everyone in the game) which proves that her 1111 set was chosen as her defauts, as they all have little conenction with eachother and careful consideration was involved to make sure her Neutrals work in tandem with her Specials, which can apply to the Miis (an amazing example is the bread-and-butter combo that is D Throw to Helicopter Kick/Piston Punch)

Palutena's moves are also classed as customs because of the priority regrading how her moves are patched. There is plenty of evidence to show that the Development Team/Sakurai chooses priority to tweak non-customs over customs between every patch. Palutena's Lightweight Platform Refresh Glich was patched about 4 or so patches after it was discovered, making it seem like significantly less of a priority, implying that it is a custom move. This cannot be applied to the Miis, however.

Brawler's One Inch Punch glitch was prioritised not dissimilar to that of a "Default Special", as it was fixed the patch after it's discovery, proving they do not fall into this category.

Watch my video for more info if you're interested.

 

[wizrad]

Man, everyone is making videos now. The debate is moving to the YouTube comments section /:

 

[T0MMY]

I'm not reposting everything that I said yesterday so learn to scroll your browser.

I don't need to scroll my browser to have to tell you: Burden of proof.
Any claims you make will require proof, otherwise I don't have any reason to believe you. So, your choice at this point, you can back up what you say and get on the level, or let your opinion be forgotten with the rest of the baseless opinions. My position stands with established competitive principles, we play the game with the only out-of-game rulings enforced if they are of sound reasoning. If you day we do anything with the Mii outside what the software allows, you will have to prove it. Innocent until proven banned.

 

[Murlough]

I don't need to scroll my browser to have to tell you: Burden of proof.
Any claims you make will require proof, otherwise I don't have any reason to believe you. So, your choice at this point, you can back up what you say and get on the level, or let your opinion be forgotten with the rest of the baseless opinions. My position stands with established competitive principles, we play the game with the only out-of-game rulings enforced if they are of sound reasoning. If you day we do anything with the Mii outside what the software allows, you will have to prove it. Innocent until proven banned.

............what the **** are you talking about? There is no proof to be had! I don't think its fair. That is my opinion. Others are free to feel otherwise. I'm done arguing this because of how stupid it is. "You need proof in order to-blah blah blah!" No. This isn't a ****ing scientific debate. This ain't some criminal trial. Its "some people want Mii specials and some don't." Hard facts are completely pointless.

AND I TOLD YOU TO SCROLL UP TO READ MY ARGUMENT I ALREADY POSTED. HOW ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME TO PRESENT PROOF WITHOUT READING MY POSTS!

I am not coming back to this thread because I've given my thoughts already. YOU have earned a spot in my ignore list for being a complete moron who can't even read someone's posts in an argument.

 

[wizrad]

"This is my opinion"
"This is my opinion, which is different and based in facts. Do you have facts to support your opinion?"
"I don't care about your facts and I don't need facts because my opinion"
"Please reconsider"
"no lol ignored"
You know things have gone downhill when the debate looks like American politics.

 

[teluoborg]

So far, I have only seen one anti-mii argument that I could agree with, which was posted in my regional facebook group:

Well this wall of text explains my point of view better than I could ever hope to do it myself.
There is nothing wrong with wanting any Mii ruleset in tournament.
I don't even see a problem with small Brawler really, the roster contains far more offending characters.
But what is wrong is hiding behind other people's opinion like Chibo's definition or GIMR's video, pretending they are facts and shoving them into every single argument.

 

[Routa]

The thing is that thous arguments have existed before EVO 2015. They have been used in many arguments before, but who cares about random Mii mains definitions etc?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

People probably already said it, but I think we should indeed allow ALL specials for Miis.

I mean, we turn items to OFF and NONE on tourneys, but any character with the ability to spawn items through a move can STILL use those moves even if the items are turned OFF and NONE...

...why do we allow them to do so? Because if we don't, it would cripple their viability and overall playstyle.

As for customs, the ruleset should be "customs turned OFF"

Anyone who can bypass that rule and use different versions of a special move even when customs are turned OFF should STILL be allowed use them.

Besides, those specials are completely different from each other rather than being simple alternate versions of the main move like anyone who's not named Palutena.

 

[HermitHelmet]

People probably already said it, but I think we should indeed allow ALL specials for Miis.

I mean, we turn items to OFF and NONE on tourneys, but any character with the ability to spawn items through a move can STILL use those moves even if the items are turned OFF and NONE.

This is something I've never realised but it's a brilliant point.

lets ban peach guys