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Mii Fighters are NOT Custom Characters: an in-depth look at the Mii Fighter Dilema

zephyrnereus

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First of all, I'd like to point out that the following post will address ALL the Mii Fighter variants (brawler, gunner, swordfighter). If anyone can help me spread this message to other sites, that would be amazing.


Introduction

Mii Fighters have been quite the predicament ever since the game was released. Many people complain about them, and yet they are considered as some of the weakest characters in the game. I and many other players believe that these characters have potential, but tournaments are limiting their power by restricting them to the 1111 set, or downright banning them. Their reasons? They use “custom” movesets. I think it’s about time we figure if a Mii is a “custom” character… and if not, then what exactly is it?


Definition of “Custom Characters”

We all know how EVO went when they used customs, and by now most of us agree that customs should remain banned. But what exactly is a custom character?

Chibo is one of the well-known gunner players, and in this article he has separated the definition of “custom” into two vastly different answers.

A custom character may be either:

  • A character that needs to first be created from the Custom Menu before it may be used in battle
  • A character that can only be selected for battle when Custom Fighters is set to On in the game settings
Following the logic of the first definition, that would mean that ALL Miis should be banned, including the “standard” 1111 that many tournaments are using. This is because no one is able to select a Mii fighter from the CSS unless it has been previously created in the custom section. But, if we go by the second definition, then ALL Miis are allowed, including the ones that are considered “custom.” But now we bump into another problem… people start to complain that Miis should ONLY use their 1111 moveset in tournaments, because the others are deemed as “custom.” This is where I present to you this counter-argument. “Miis are NOT custom characters.”


Definition of “Mii Characters”

“Wait, didn’t you just say that Miis ARE custom characters? How can they be custom and not custom at the same time?“

We can all agree by now that out of the previous two definitions of “custom characters”, almost everyone has been using the second one, since most tournaments allow 1111 Miis. Here’s the deal though: unlike every other character in the game, Miis are the ONLY ones that can use different special movesets whether or not the Custom Fighters tab is set to ON or OFF. If we follow the second definition, it implies that Miis are not technically custom fighters.

I believe that the Brawler, Gunner, and Swordfighter should be classified as “Mii Characters” (duh)

But…what does this mean to Mii users? Well for starters, we need to define what a “Mii Character” is. I offer you this definition.

“Mii Character- a unique style of fighter that is able to select various Special moves, while retaining the same Basic moves within all variants without the need to activate the Custom option.” By this definition, only the Brawler, Gunner, and Swordfighter have these attributes.


The Palutena Dilemma
What is so great about this new definition is the fact that it addresses one of the main counters to our petition: “if Miis can use custom moves, then Palutena should be able to because she has her custom moves from the start.” This then leads to, “if Palutena can use her custom moves, then ALL characters should use their custom moves.”

Palutena does not fall into the “Mii Character” definition. She falls into the “Custom Character” definition, as she is unable to select her other specials once the custom switch has been turned off. Palutena’s moves are considered “custom” by the system itself, so that means that all of the Miis’ different specials are NOT custom. It is their special “gimmick”. They are simply able to pick from a pool of moves that other characters have no access to. Many other characters in the roster have their own unique gimmick, and although not everyone has them, they are all equally allowed in tournaments.


Infinite Possibilities? Not Really

Ok, so by now we can agree that Miis should be allowed to use their full set of special moves… But what about height and weight? With a choice of 12 moves to pick from, and the ability to pick from short to tall, skinny to fat, there are near infinite combinations to pick from and to learn against! Here is where the second part of the definition comes in. I know many Mii mains will not like this, but I believe that the optimal way to use these characters is with MEDIUM height and MEDIUM weight.

The arguments that come from us are, “but minimum/quarter height and minimum weight is the most optimal!” or the more casual, “but that will make my Mii not unique!” I believe that people accepting these characters’ vast arsenal to choose from is already one huge step, and I also believe we should draw the line there.

If we follow the definition I posted earlier,

“Mii Character- a unique style of fighter that is able to select various Special moves, while retaining the same Basic moves within all variants without the need to activate the Custom option.”

Then by this definition, altering the height and weight from the default medium WILL cause their basic moves to change. It is a known fact that smaller Miis are able to jump higher, run faster, and have less endlag on their moves. This is a HUGE change when it comes to competitive play. Not only that, but preparing a custom height Mii without the proper tools WILL slow down tournaments. It can even be considered as stalling and can get you disqualified. Why is this? Because you have to:
  1. Close the current game (Smash Bros)
  2. Go to the Mii maker
  3. Create a brand new Mii
  4. Set it up to the EXACT height and weight as the one you use at home
  5. Close the program
  6. Reload Smash Bros

This process can easily take at least 5 minutes to do, and that is a big time waster in tournaments. Sure, this can be solved by loading a premade Mii from a 3DS, but then what about those who don't have a portable system with the 3DS copy of the game? Excluding them would be unfair.

I believe that restricting the Miis height and weight is a perfect compromise to what we are asking. After all, a gunner with 1111 will kill you with their Forward smash at the exact same percent as a gunner with 3122, and both will die at the exact percent if they have the same height and weight.


More Limits That Should be Considered

Height and weight are not the only things we need to worry about. Another argument that people use against Miis is “it wouldn’t be fair if the Mii is able to change their specials between rounds.” I agree with this point of view. Being able to change movesets as a way to “counterpick ” your opponent is a tad unfair. Chibo states this as well in his article, and this is what he wrote in response:

While there should inherently be no issue with this, I can understand the concern, and most important, the time needed if players were to create up to 3 or 5 different Miis per set. In order to help appease this, I created the following rule which was used in events such as MLG 2015 Finals: Each player may make one Mii Fighter of each type (Brawler/Gunner/Swordfighter) during a set when they intend to use them. They may only use a system default Mii with any special combination of their preference. The appearance or equipment may not be altered." Fans of Miis have begun to adapt this rule at their events, and found it to be a good compromise for keeping the integrity of the counterpick process, and making sure this doesn’t become a time issue.
I agree wholeheartedly with this rule (although I’m personally against banning costumes, but I can compromise if we are allowed to use all moves.)
Here is something to think about: this iteration of smash bros has four class of fighters:
  • Standard Characters
  • Unlockable Characters
  • DLC Characters
  • Mii Characters
ANY character that is not in the Standard class can be argued and banned if we really wanted.
Likewise, these characters can be restricted in a similar fashion.

I ask you, why then are TOs demanding to only bring setups that have ALL unlockable characters and DLC characters available, but not allow Miis with variant loadouts?

The TLDR and Conclusion

If you’re interested in the cause, you should read through the whole post. But here is a short and sweet ruleset to remember:

  1. All special moves allowed
  2. Mid height and weight only (guest miis are defaulted to these stats)
  3. No changing special moveset between rounds. (changing mii type is ok)

As for my final thoughts? Well I believe that to get what we want we have to be clear about it. Tournaments are not only a place to compete, but to have fun as well, and I feel that limiting these amazing characters is unfair, especially when it’s due to a lack of knowledge. None of their moves are overpowered, and although they could get out of line, a simple and universal rule can easily fix this, just like how we use 2 stock and 6 minutes as a standard. If by any chance, people begin to discover that certain moves these characters have are broken (and I mean literally, like freezing the game) then that one specific move can be banned.

Here is to hoping that all Miis become fully legal!
 
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T4ylor

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I always see a couple people use the argument, "Miis are not real characters, because you have to make them. They aren't just a part of the game." So I may as well address that before someone brings it up - DLC characters are tournament legal and you have to go outside of the game and pay money to use them so how are Miis not fine?

Edit: Good post. Your solution is the same thing I had in mind and all I could ever ask for the Mii fighters.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I'd like to point out that a default fighter has to be using the standard 1111 special spread. Although Miis are able to use their custom special moves when customs are turned OFF, it would still have to be treated as a customization match-up.
 

digiholic

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I'd like to point out that a default fighter has to be using the standard 1111 special spread. Although Miis are able to use their custom special moves when customs are turned OFF, it would still have to be treated as a customization match-up.
The difference is that normal characters have actual consistency in their 1111 moves, since they're designed to use pretty much only them. Very few characters have variant moves that are drastically different. If, for example, you swapped out Mario's Fireball for Straight Fireball, you'd be able to tell that something wasn't right. You'd be thinking "This shouldn't be the default move. It seems like a situational variant on this other move, that one "

With Mii fighters, 1111 are completely arbitrary. Each move is completely unique. Without prior knowledge, you'd have no idea what was supposed to be "default" since they're not variations. If Gunner's 3221 move set happened to be randomly chosen as "1111" when the game was being designed, there'd be no way to notice. None of the moves have odd behaviors like windboxes or grounding or other gimmicks like most of the customs do.
 

zephyrnereus

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I'd like to point out that a default fighter has to be using the standard 1111 special spread. Although Miis are able to use their custom special moves when customs are turned OFF, it would still have to be treated as a customization match-up.
This is why I'm using the title "Mii Fighters are not Custom Fighters". You do bring up a valid argument, but we first need to define what a "custom character" is.

  • If a custom fighter is a character that needs to first be created from the Custom Menu before it may be used in battle, then no one should be allowed to use Miis, not even the 1111 variation. This it the ruleset that "For Glory" uses.
  • If a custom fighter is a character that can only be selected for battle when Custom Fighters is set to On in the game settings, then that means that any Mii loadout should be allowed, because Miis do not fall into this custom category.

If we go by the second definition, then you can't just strict the player to picking a "non-custom" loadout, because all loadouts are valid under this rule. We'd have to be more specific then. Here is what the rule you're suggesting sounds like on paper.

"A custom fighter is a character that needs to first be created from the Custom Menu before it may be used in battle, except for Miis, which should be restricted to only the first move on their list."
People are gonna ask "why? Because the other movesets are broken or too overpowered?" We all know the true reasons to these are "because X tournament used this ruleset" or "because I don't wanna deal with it"

This is the reason why I'm saying that Miis should not be classified as a "Custom Character" but as a "Mii Character". Every move they have is not "custom" according to the second definition. They simply have the ability to select from a variety of special attacks prior to battle, and that is what makes them their own class of fighter, similar to the other class of fighter that is called "DLC Characters".

Here is something to think about: this iteration of smash bros has four class of fighters:
  • Standard Characters
  • Unlockable Characters
  • DLC Characters
  • Mii Characters
ANY character that is not in the Standard class can be argued and banned if we really wanted.
"Unlockable characters should be banned because you have to play a certain number of times before unlocking them"
"DLC characters should be banned because you have to pay money to unlock any of them"
"Mii characters should be banned because they have to be created prior to starting the battle"
Likewise, these characters can be restricted in a similar fashion.

"You can only play an unlockable fighter if the setup has it unlocked. If not, then you have to play another character."
"You can only play a DLC fighter if the owner of the setup has paid for it. If not, then you have to play another character."
"You can only play a Mii character if the special attack loadout is set to 1111. If not then you have to play another character."
I ask you, why then are TOs demanding to only bring setups that have ALL unlockable characters and DLC characters available, but not allow Miis with variant loadouts?
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Still, the overall rule in a customs OFF bout is that "everyone" has to using the default 1111 spread, and this includes even the Mii Fighters. If all fighters are allowed to use their custom specials, however, then the story would be different.
 

T4ylor

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Still, the overall rule in a customs OFF bout is that "everyone" has to using the default 1111 spread, and this includes even the Mii Fighters. If all fighters are allowed to use their custom specials, however, then the story would be different.
And here I thought it was using what the UI would allow when you have customs set to off. Rhetorical question: Why do we allow Diddy to use his Banana when it's clearly an item and we have items set to off?
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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And here I thought it was using what the UI would allow when you have customs set to off. Rhetorical question: Why do we allow Diddy to use his Banana when it's clearly an item and we have items set to off?
It is part of Diddy's moveset, much like with Link's Bombs, Peach's Vegetables, R.O.B.'s Gyro, PAC-MAN's Bonus Fruit, and Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopas. In fact, all of those projectiles get the Item Hurler or Item Lobber treatment if they're picked up.
 
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DaDavid

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I'm not sure that this requires and in-depth look at all... It's pretty simple. Mii Fighters are allowed their 1111 moveset because the rest of the cast is allowed their 1111 moveset. The only argument for Mii Fighters having access to their custom moves while others don't is semantics, and given that this is a fighting game and not a high school debate, I don't see why that should carry any weight.
 

T0MMY

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Still, the overall rule in a customs OFF bout is that "everyone" has to using the default 1111 spread, and this includes even the Mii Fighters. If all fighters are allowed to use their custom specials, however, then the story would be different.
And here I thought it was using what the UI would allow when you have customs set to off. Rhetorical question: Why do we allow Diddy to use his Banana when it's clearly an item and we have items set to off?
A better question would be "What is the reasoning behind the 1111 ruling?".
All out-of-game rulings need sound reasoning - Going back to the established groundwork of David Sirlin, bans must be warranted.

Just because 55/58 characters are using a 1111 moveset does not mean anything to the game. Majority of character rule does not change the game coding to restrict the Mii Fighters. This is an out-of-game ruling that the TO would enforce. Now if it is an out-of-game ruling there has to be reason why it would be used. Being an "Original Fighter" is a unique ability, the same as Kirby being able to Swallow & Copy abilities is a unique ability to that character; Samus can be changed to Zero Suit in Brawl, likewise Zelda can mysteriously be selected as Sheik in Melee; Robin and Corrin can be selected with different gender; Mario and Luigi have a dapper mustache. These are all unique abilities of character that a precedent has been established - none of the in-battle or in-menu unique abilities were ever debated and universally accepted, they violate no competitive principle... so why is there a sudden exception just because the Mii fighters are unique in their decade-long shtick of being unique?

That is the real question. Why a restriction is needed at all. Sound reasoning: Go.
 

John12346

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I feel like this is really important to mention.

I believe that we're at the stage where we've already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the precedent behind making Miis legal with all of their Special Moves in competitive play The PROBLEM is getting the people who matter (Read: TOs) to actually read, understand, and accept our arguments.

Brainstorm on that, because all of the evidence and arguments that we've come up with to this point will amount to nothing if we don't.

Also, excellent read.
 
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Yikarur

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I think everyone knows that already. Every poll always ends with "Guest Mii's with all moves" and it's the most logicsa decision
You set the rules (Custom: off) and everything within the rules should be allowed.

TOs and Community Leader just need to stop being stubborn. It's so stupid that this is even argued about so much
 

GeneralLedge

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Every time a poll is held, there is always a misdirection in some shape or form, to appeal to the anti-Mii contributors.

There are polls where the answers are either "Miis are Banned / Miis are 1111". There are polls where in spite of the answer, the logical reaction is that the poll was tilted in favor of Miis, because that was the wrong answer.

What is the point of a poll in favor or against it, if it never actually mattered and was never intended to be taken seriously? The only thing the poll-maker wanted to know, was how many were in favor of his or her decision to ban Miis. Every single time, they're proven wrong. Every single time, they make some excuse to prove themself right.

They don't want to change the rules. They're the ones in charge, and it doesn't matter what we say.
 
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zephyrnereus

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I just thought of something important that non-Mii players should think about:
if miis do become fully legal, what will you lose from this?
  • There is a 1% chance that you will meet a Mii fighter in bracket.
  • You'd need to treat this new character just like you do any other matchup that you have no idea how to play against. (because no one knows every single matchup in the game.)
  • You can adapt and win, or get overwhelmed and lose.
  • You can then challenge that player to friendlies and then you will learn the match up.
  • Now next time you enter a tournament and fight the same player (or a new player) you will know the matchup a lot more than you did before. it will be much easier to adapt to their playstyle if you already know what 12 of their moves do, just not the 4 specials that they picked.

Honestly, letting Miis play in competitive play will make everyone a better player. Non-Mii players will lose virtually nothing, while Mii mains will be able to play their character.
 

Peppermint_Tea

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No stop it, 1111 get over it. Half of your argument is about adapting, okay maybe not half but you talk about it a fair bit. How about you start adapting and learn to make your 1111 move-set work same as all the others who play low tiers do.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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For the Miis, Palutena, and Mega Man in particular (besides his Down B), I don't really view their 2222 and 3333 sets as "customs". Sure, that is what they are called, but most of them are completely different in regards to their intended functions. So, in my mind, I view them as "alternative specials" as opposed to "customs". Because, to me, a "custom" is supposed to have similar functions despite having different properties to the default move in question. But that's just me.

I haven't really read anything else. Just thought I would share my own opinion. Not sure why, though. *shrugs*
 

AEMehr

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No stop it, 1111 get over it. Half of your argument is about adapting, okay maybe not half but you talk about it a fair bit. How about you start adapting and learn to make your 1111 move-set work same as all the others who play low tiers do.
The issue is that the community is forcing characters to act like the rest of the cast when they are inherently not like the rest of the cast.

It is the same prospect of forcing Ryu players to hold the button so they are not allowed to use light variations of their normals because it isn't something other fighters can use. It's like banning Cloud because of Limit Break. It's a mechanic that is the unique draw of the fighter.
 

wizrad

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No stop it, 1111 get over it. Half of your argument is about adapting, okay maybe not half but you talk about it a fair bit. How about you start adapting and learn to make your 1111 move-set work same as all the others who play low tiers do.
Seriously, did you even read the post? Because you seem to have no knowledge of Miis, how they work, or the rules and the reasonings behind them whatsoever. And you contributed nothing to this discussion.
 

Peppermint_Tea

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Seriously, did you even read the post? Because you seem to have no knowledge of Miis, how they work, or the rules and the reasonings behind them whatsoever. And you contributed nothing to this discussion.
Then my work here is done <3


No but for real I read the post, and yes I see where he is coming from, but what people seem to forget is that arguing "OH IT'S NOT """""""CUSTOMS""""""#$%@w BECAUSE YOU DON'T USE THE SAME MENU AND ITS INHERENTLY BUILT INTO MY CHARACTER TO HAVE DIFFERENT MOVE SETS" is ridiculous. And really at it's core that's the argument I see time and time again for Mii's getting to use customs. And yes they are customs you can't just argue a loophole and call them not customs. Siting here saying OH WELL RYU THIS AND SHULK THAT, BUT CLOUD DOES THIS ect. doesn't change anything. Those move augments are exactly that, augments that their vanilla move-set has built in. Being their "1111" Its not them changing their default move selection, I'm in no way against Mii's but saying they should get to use anything but their vanilla move set, that being 1111 is just wrong, it's not a case of people not wanting them in legal play (sometimes it is but I'm not even going to begin talking about those people) it's simply a case of a vocal minority not being happy with their main and finding loopholes and arguments to allow them to vary from their vanilla move set. You don't see other people maining low tiers going around making huge posts and trying to shake up the community because oh X and Y custom will make my character more viable and here is X and Y reason that move isn't a custom but an "ALTERNATE" special.

Instead you see them grinding and working to advance their characters meta and figure things out, not trying to change the move-set they had and complaining because everyone else doesn't see it their way.

So just because I didn't want to go into a long winded post and stated the obvious off the bat doesn't mean I didn't read the post OH I DID. It means I couldn't be bothered because this topic always goes down the same road regardless of how much evidence and logic people on my side of the argument throw at it. But guess ya made me do it so congrats.




TL;DR <3

Also inb4 mod snips my post or I get a time out in the corner because they disagree with me.
 
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zephyrnereus

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You know, no one would have brought this argument if the game truly considered miis to be custom. If the switch was turned off and miis disappeared from the CSS then there is nothing to argue. If the switch was turned off and all miis transformed to a 1111 loadout, then it would have been ok and we leave it at that. Problem is, the game doesn't consider them as custom. They are considered as Miis. Palu and megaman are irrelevant because even though they have unique moves, they are considered custom by the game. Flip the switch off and dangerwrap is gone.

The game also considers them as custom though, because you have to create them to unlock them. By this logic, if all customs are banned, so should the miis.

So now you are left with two logical options: allow all movesets on miis, or downright ban them. Im pretty sure most people either agree that miis should not be banned, or they don't care. By this logic, there should also be no limited moveset.

Things then get tricky. If any mii is allowed, then how do we deal with size and weight? Simple: use guest miis. They're all the same in every system, so anyone can pick one of the 6 and is ready to fight and it doesn't matter if the wii is old with a thousand miis or if it's brand new. Its logical for a mii main to practice with a guest mii at home, so when they go to a tournament, they can pick up the same guest mii and it will play exactly the same.

Then there's the whole "they can switch sets mid match." argument This is the only rule that should be added: players cannot change loadout. This allows the opponent to learn the matchup.
 
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GeneralLedge

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TL;DR <3

Also inb4 mod snips my post or I get a time out in the corner because they disagree with me.
If a mod were to snip your post because they disagree with you, then they would be firmly in the wrong. You are allowed to say as you wish, prod as you may, and make any argument you want.

But it's important as well that you listen as much as you speak. If you're making your plea because you want to understand and learn, that's wholly encouraged. We've explained our reasons before, and we can explain them again. We care about our characters and their unique abilities.

But, if you're making your statements and plug your ears in response because you don't care what the other side says, then you're no better than holding the same attitude in a real-life situation. Screaming a statement you hold as fact and then merrily running out of the room doesn't make you look intelligent, it makes you look like a child. If that's what makes you happy, we will never be able to change the way you think, and very well we shouldn't.

I'll try a different approach to thinking about this.

Let's say your main character Fox, or any other character in the game, had a restriction on how you were allowed to play them in a tournament, because the majority of contributors came to that conclusion. How or why they came to the conclusion isn't the point, or perhaps simply unknown.

If, for example, it was a tournament standard that you were not allowed to use Fox's up-air, would you gladly and willfully agree to this? A majority of players in this situation agree you should not be allowed to use up-air as Fox.

You are, in this situation, a minority. You may present the most obvious and brain-dead reason for why it's a part of your character's available tools, and a method of play that the game itself allows.

However, let's imagine this goofy alternate universe came to the conclusion that "yes, you can use Fox's uair, but only during your first jump."

Poll after poll come and go, asking whether or not Fox's uair should be banned, or should be allowed during the first jump. Nobody bats an eye. Confused, you ask why the hell this arbitrary rule is upheld with ernest.

Now imagine any and every possible, stupid ruling decision that would lead to this arbitrary "you can't use Fox's uair" decision. Imagine references to other games, imagine sources cited about the knockback and growth of the move, the ease of use whether or not it were true, and how much effort would have to be put forth in having every player "have to learn it".

Are you rolling your eyes yet? Have you stopped reading because this is something that would never happen to you?

Then you've only proven my point -- it doesn't matter that this decision happens, so long as it can never affect your character. If this arbitrary rule happened to a Sheik or a Diddy? Probably everyone who doesn't play these characters won't care, but ZeRo would sure as heck be the frontrunner to overrule these decisions.

So why, when applied to other characters, does this all seem so silly? Why are they devoid of rules and restriction that their players would immediately overrule? Why is it okay if they stand against a rule to ban Needles or Banana Peels, but it's not okay if we stand against a rule to ban Helicopter Kick or Slash Launcher?

At the end of the day, I see players who never have to worry about their characters being banned. And that somehow makes it okay for them to ban others. Not because of arbitrary rules or pathetic arguments, but because it doesn't affect THEM.

The rich become richer, and the poor become poorer. Just like the real world.
 

Peppermint_Tea

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So I like how even after what I wrote you think I don't get it, that I'm being ignorant and plugging my ears. Yet you just continue to try the counter point of they aren't customs and use that mild loop-hole to drive your argument home. Also to just start questioning or insulting my intelligence? Kinda makes me assume you are already on the last legs of your argument and have to resort to that and using hypothetical's

Let's for a second consider this alternate dimension where fox's up air is banned. If this were to be the case and the entire community came together and decided on this ruling, who am I to even disagree? At the end of the day if this what the majority of the smash community wanted it really leaves me with two choices, learn and adapt with fox or pick a better character because at the end of the day it's my fault for playing fox under these conditions. It's my fault for not playing a better character. Because after it's all said and done character loyalty will drag you down and hold you back and some people still need to learn that.

I love this community I really do, I love how open and nice everyone typically is but sometimes the community needs to put it's foot down and this is one of those times. 1111 Is considered vanilla on every character that's just a simple fact and if you can't see why or don't care just stop reading now because we will never see eye to eye so you are wasting both our time. We are trying to grow into a more serious scene and having no consistency will just hurt and slow this down. All the other characters are on 1111 so MIi's must abide by this if they want to be in use. Mii players don't like it? Well I'm sorry but it's time for a new main then. Esam, Nakat, many top level players have said it. If you aren't getting the results you want, you need to look at who you play and why. If you are going to tournaments trying to win or do well then you need to really consider playing character at least in the top half of the tier list and even then in some regions you won't find success because your PR is made up of mostly top 5-10 characters it's just the reality of this game in a competitive sense. Can you win with low or mid tiers? Sure you can but it's not a easy road.

And don't for a second think I just simply hate Mii's or I'm a cynical person who likes to put people down because I'm not. I feel for them I really do. When I started playing I tried to main Lucina because I liked her and had fun, but I came to the realization that I wasn't going to get anywhere playing her so I switched because losing isn't fun when you are trying to compete. Again adapt to the situation you are given or change. Playing a character you love is great, and having them limited sucks but its just where the game is and where it will most likely stay. I'm really sorry to break it to you but I doubt anyone will be swayed who sees it like I do by these sort of threads. And unfortunately most TO's see it my way.


Oh and by the way that whole "The rich become richer, and the poor become poorer. Just like the real world." bit was great. Really though 10/10 I love washed out political sayings at the end of an argument to really drive the point home. Here's one of my own, but its not a political one, its a Gorge Carlin one I like him :)

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity."


(Oh and don't worry I see the hypocrisy here in responding to your cop outs with my own, but hey adapt and change amirite)
 

GeneralLedge

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Messages
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Also to just start questioning or insulting my intelligence? Kinda makes me assume you are already on the last legs of your argument and have to resort to that and using hypothetical's
You're going to have to be a bit more specific. In what way did I question or insult your intelligence?

I quoted a sample of your attitude, and told you what it didn't do. If you enjoy willfully throwing hearts and gestures around, telling mods how to do their jobs and thinking you're untouchable, that scarcely puts me on my last legs. That's merely how you want to appear, and you appear to be baiting and trolling. You very well might not be. But it's structured in such a way that you don't want to listen to a response, you just want to look like you're better than us.

Your first post on the forum was yesterday. I don't know who you are. If I insulted you, I apologize.


Let's for a second consider this alternate dimension where fox's up air is banned. If this were to be the case and the entire community came together and decided on this ruling, who am I to even disagree? At the end of the day if this what the majority of the smash community wanted it really leaves me with two choices, learn and adapt with fox or pick a better character because at the end of the day it's my fault for playing fox under these conditions. It's my fault for not playing a better character. Because after it's all said and done character loyalty will drag you down and hold you back and some people still need to learn that.
But is this what you really think? If you had every reason to fight against this strange alternative universe, would you? Why wouldn't you?

If your immediate response is truly to give up, you are an infinitely more acceptant person than I and many others. But can the same be said for other Fox players? There are many Mii Fighter players who have already given up and quit the game, because their only appeal to keep them playing was a Mii Fighter character.

I just thought I'd put that out there as well: Encouraging the decision to give up doesn't stop at picking a different character. People are picking a different game instead.

If that sits well with you, I won't argue.

I love this community I really do, I love how open and nice everyone typically is but sometimes the community needs to put it's foot down and this is one of those times. 1111 Is considered vanilla on every character that's just a simple fact and if you can't see why or don't care just stop reading now because we will never see eye to eye so you are wasting both our time. We are trying to grow into a more serious scene and having no consistency will just hurt and slow this down. All the other characters are on 1111 so MIi's must abide by this if they want to be in use. Mii players don't like it? Well I'm sorry but it's time for a new main then. Esam, Nakat, many top level players have said it. If you aren't getting the results you want, you need to look at who you play and why. If you are going to tournaments trying to win or do well then you need to really consider playing character at least in the top half of the tier list and even then in some regions you won't find success because your PR is made up of mostly top 5-10 characters it's just the reality of this game in a competitive sense. Can you win with low or mid tiers? Sure you can but it's not a easy road.
I've been a front of a lot of Miis trying to fold and learn 1111 as a contingency. Many of us don't like it (and certainly we shouldn't have to like it), but many of us are learning new things with these characters. At the same time, however, many of us are simply learning and finding new reasons to dislike Mii Fighter's 1111.

A large part of our argument is that the "1111" is arbitrary, and simply the method the game defines things. It's arbitrary that the number 1 is the first number (and many programmer nerds would argue that '0' is :p), but it's a result of the method to name custom moves.

If these numeric labels were replaced with colors or shapes, would the arguments hold the same weight to them? Saying "all fighters should use their triangle sets, because it's the default" sounds slightly more goofy.

But this is partly besides the point -- why do they need to match across all fighters at all? Is it because it makes "all the fighters equal"? Does Jigglypuff having 1111 somehow make her equal to Sheik? Are all the different custom moves precisely the same in their differences between the numbers 2222 and 3333?

Or is all of this just because we, as humans, simply appreciate similar patterns?

The '1111' reason falls apart when you analyze it between any other characters per their value as moves, instead of a structurally sound recurrence. Marth's Side-B number 2 and Ganondorf's Side-B number 2 do not share equal usefulness.

If, on the other hand, it's simply seen as "unfair" for Miis to "have custom moves" while everyone else does not... Why is this not a push forward in legalizing custom moves, as opposed to banning Miis for their unique ability (as create-your-own-character characters) to ignore whether custom moves are on or off?

And from the standpoint of regulation -- is it more or less work for a TO to just let players create their Miis themselves, and prevent them from abusing this? Should we not let this happen for the span of at least three to six months and review it after the fact, rather than ban it immediately without trial?

EDIT: And to clarify, yes, it (and customs) 'have been tried' before. For some bizarre reason, despite never causing any issues except in player-specific circumstances, they were IMMEDIATELY determined as good as banned without continuous trial. This is why this is an ongoing debate at all, because there truly hasn't been a trial period. People just don't want to, because it's easier not to.

And don't for a second think I just simply hate Mii's or I'm a cynical person who likes to put people down because I'm not. I feel for them I really do. When I started playing I tried to main Lucina because I liked her and had fun, but I came to the realization that I wasn't going to get anywhere playing her so I switched because losing isn't fun when you are trying to compete. Again adapt to the situation you are given or change. Playing a character you love is great, and having them limited sucks but its just where the game is and where it will most likely stay. I'm really sorry to break it to you but I doubt anyone will be swayed who sees it like I do by these sort of threads. And unfortunately most TO's see it my way.
I won't touch this paragraph since it's otherwise sound, but you previously said "Can you win with low or mid tiers? Sure you can but it's not a easy road." and it somewhat confuses me that you'd understand this while also jumping ship...

On the other hand, Lucina got some pretty great buffs recently, so you should consider picking her up again and having another go.


Oh and by the way that whole "The rich become richer, and the poor become poorer. Just like the real world." bit was great. Really though 10/10 I love washed out political sayings at the end of an argument to really drive the point home. Here's one of my own, but its not a political one, its a Gorge Carlin one I like him :)

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity."


(Oh and don't worry I see the hypocrisy here in responding to your cop outs with my own, but hey adapt and change amirite)
I'm glad you see the hypocrisy, but I'd like to make a footnote that this is what i'd consider "baiting". Whether or not I made a statement to refer to a real-world similarity or not is moot. If that statement rubbed you the wrong way, there's not a lot I can do about it.

But, why make fun of it at all? Similarity to real-world issues is, at least I think so, a valid distinction. And I could be entirely wrong in presenting that distinction, but... If it's a problem in one reality, why is it okay in Smash because it's logically 'just a video game'?
 
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ToadsterOven

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The issue is that the community is forcing characters to act like the rest of the cast when they are inherently not like the rest of the cast.

It is the same prospect of forcing Ryu players to hold the button so they are not allowed to use light variations of their normals because it isn't something other fighters can use. It's like banning Cloud because of Limit Break. It's a mechanic that is the unique draw of the fighter.
oh ikr? Better ban Bayonetta for getting a free kill with a well timed use of Witch Time when her opponent is at a high enough percent. :p Its a shame our community is so pre emptive about banning or wanting to ban things they find "unfair" before giving it adequate testing and tournament results to draw a conclusion about whether something actually warrants a ban or not.
 

wizrad

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Peppermint_Tea Peppermint_Tea Why do you keep saying that we're not listening to you? You're ignoring our point. The "loophole" that allows Miis they're customs, if you want us to call them that, is entirely intended. It's a part of the game that was deliberately designed to work that way. And no, it's not like items or customs. Both of those things have a switch to disable them. That doesn't exist for Miis. So your argument that Miis should be 1111 because customs are off has no ground to stand on. We play with customs off, not with 1111.

Please, please stop ignoring us and just listen to our argument and seriously consider it. It's not like we're just pulling this out of thin air. If Miis weren't naturally allowed their customs in customs off, then this would not be up for debate. 1111 would be it. But that's not how it is. This mindset of "I must win the argument" is so bad for making any progress in anything.
 
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Peppermint_Tea

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I'm too lazy to tag or quote either of you, this has nothing to do with the human condition, stop trying to talk big and make this something it's not, it has nothing to do with the numbers or human perception. Yes they could be shapes and I'm positive people would still say everyone uses green triangles because that's the default. The fact the UI is designed a certain way doesn't change things. If anything the only reason you can even have all the Mii's customs off the bat is to push the Nintendo brand and streamline making a Mii. They could have easily had made them unlocks and then where does this whole argument go? No where half the justification is gone right there. So arguing how the UI enables you to have access to them all is moot in my opinion but hey guess that's me.

Now on to the whole we should just have customs on anyway topic that's been brought up. They had their chance at EVO and most of the community didn't enjoy them and like them, Danky Kang the last air bender isn't a thing people want, they had a huge trial period. Hell Xanadu ran them for months leading up to EVO and many top players along with well known players stopped by during that time. Customs certainly got their run the majority of the community just decided they weren't good for the scene. But that's not what this is about there are droves of threads on that.

Again, I'm not ignoring you I've read thread after thread on the argument. Trust me when I say I fully understand what you are saying and why you believe it's right, but and I'll say it again the points you are saying are just as illogical as you perceive mine. Telling me it's inherent to their design because they come unlocked automatically means nothing, your just arguing semantics at that point. The fact that without customs being on you see it being fair that your character has 12 options while say a Ganon main has 4, but useful ones he has access to that aren't his defaults are off, how does that even make sense? You know your opponent plays a character that would make one of your specials useless or not as effective? Just swap it out before the first game. That Ganon main? Well too bad so sad pick a different character but me? Oh no Ill just swap 1223 for 1243 before the first match then I get to stick with my character I'm comfortable with but just change some specials around. However at the core keep the same spacing and such I enjoy and am accustomed to. No that's insane and that's exactly what you would be getting at highlevel play.

And finally I'll agree with you on one point, that turning on customs would solve the issue, but that would in turn make all the Mii's worse anyway so it's a lose lose. And when you say that everyone is just lazy, well hell yeah they are but they are for a good reason. This game all ready has a roster of 58 characters your telling me I need to learn all those match ups but now each fighter can mix in a combination of 4 moves from a pool of 12? Nope no thanks I completely see why the majority doesn't want that. Having that would hinder peoples ability to prepare for tournaments and practice effectively. We are trying as a whole to get taken seriously by the rest of the FGC but if we can't even keep the game consistent how can we blame them when they laugh at us. But hey that last point is harder to make a solid point and more of my opinion so take that how you will

TL;DR

1.Just because a design choice let's you get around using customs doesn't magically make them not customs. It just means Nintendo wanted that experience to be stream-lined because Mii's are a large point of their home consoles for the past few years.

2. 1111 is not arbitrary it's literally the default for all the fighters. It's not like some fighters have abilities that are labeled as 2 or 3 by default, then 1111 for Mii's would be arbitrary.

Also I'm well aware of the Lucina buffs thanks bb <3 :)

(Trigger warning I didn't proof read this one cause I can't be bothered to) (Also trigger warning I used trigger warning) (also I lied I fixed it up)
 
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ZarroTsu

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Messages
240
Preposition: If Miis were locked to one set (as they're currently working on doing for EVO, and with Esam's support), does that bypass the perceived issue that they can change moves between sets/matches? If Miis were universally, and I do mean at every applicable tournament, locked to a single (albeit non-1111) set, does that circumvent the problem?

As characters who are intended to be user-made, it at least hypothetically avoids the issue if they were all user-made the same way. It shouldn't matter if they're 1111 or 2332, so long as it's universally true, known, and prepared for as a single set per Fighter.

In this instance, the "1111" becomes truly arbitrary if regardless of that, the Miis are locked no matter who plays them. There would be no tricks or swap-outs. Everyone would be prepared to fight the same thing.
 

Peppermint_Tea

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Messages
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Preposition: If Miis were locked to one set (as they're currently working on doing for EVO, and with Esam's support), does that bypass the perceived issue that they can change moves between sets/matches? If Miis were universally, and I do mean at every applicable tournament, locked to a single (albeit non-1111) set, does that circumvent the problem?

As characters who are intended to be user-made, it at least hypothetically avoids the issue if they were all user-made the same way. It shouldn't matter if they're 1111 or 2332, so long as it's universally true, known, and prepared for as a single set per Fighter.

In this instance, the "1111" becomes truly arbitrary if regardless of that, the Miis are locked no matter who plays them. There would be no tricks or swap-outs. Everyone would be prepared to fight the same thing.
Hmmm see this I could get behind, MAYBE. It still raises the question of other characters being allowed to do this. At the heart of it it's the same problem I have with where do we the line. Does that mean Palu gets her preferred custom load out that makes her more viable?

But I can see that being a reasonable solution. Again it will get it's shot at EVO and I guess we go from there

I like you though :) finally some logic none of this lets give them all the things.
 
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ZarroTsu

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Does that mean Palu gets her preferred custom load out that makes her more viable?
Honestly I wouldn't mind it, but it leads to another group asking for things and so on. Palu at least has her custom moves unlocked by default, so letting her get away with it is feasible, and I don't think her access to Superspeed breaks the game or anything. It makes Palutena a more engaging character to play and watch.

Whether we draw the line at 'custom moves that are unlocked by default' or 'custom move on/off button on the menu' doesn't really matter, it's just up to at what point people think its "unfair" or not (which for many is at the very start of the argument). Of course, Palutena with Customs-on still has access to her 1111 set because the menu won't make it go away, where as Miis have access to only the sets they have created, which can be regulated well in advance.
 
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Ridel

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I think the thing people overlook when it comes to 1111 is that of course there has to be a 1111 because you need some moves listed when the menu is viewed to be consistent with the UI, doesn't necessarily make it their defaults.
 

ZarroTsu

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If the logistic issue is "what the default is", it's made-up and intended to shock passive participants.

If the issue is "only one moveset available", then it shouldn't ultimately matter which is the 'one moveset', numerically. Just so long as it's universally understood and handled in such a way that if it ever changes, notice would go out very long in advance. Like two or three months in advance.
 

Peppermint_Tea

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As ZarroTsu said, as long as the Mii players can all come togeather and find one move set that would be universal I'm sure they would have people with influence behind them i.e Esam as stated in his tweet. However Most of them feel slighted that they would have to give up the freedom to swap move sets all willy nilly to take this compromise. But really what makes them so special that expections should be made? Why should they not have to compromise if the community is making an exception for them and compromising.

If you let one character have an optimised move set then palu needs to, ganon needs to, hell all the characters should get to then and we are back to the whole should customs be on thing.

All I'm really saying is if most of them really wanted to find a solution they would jump at that offer. Yet here we still are with many but not all the Mii players not willing to even give that a shot and play the martyr saying if they can't have any move set they want we might aswell outright ban them. And that's beyond childish Imo.

Anywho enough from me Ive writen a novel in this thread Ill keep the rest to myself but to anyone who cares you should really consider the option Esam proposed
 
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Foie

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Can I ask, where did you get this impression? Sounds like an assumption and generalization similar to the ad hominem that mii players are entitled. Speaking for myself, I'd only ever want to play 1 loadout and would have no problem locking that in for an entire tourney. I bet most mii players feel the same way (however I'm not going to make that generalization and state it as fact).

That's just a fear and "nightmare situation" argument of the anti-mii crowd, not actually based in reality or experience.

If we're going with 1 set standardized, I believe that should include 1 pre-determined optimal size, because "default" is mostly arbitrary and only has the benefit of a small logistical advantage. Overcoming this will likely be as simple as preloading 2 miis for each WiiU: tiny and (1/4, 0).

Tiny, for example, has not proven game breaking in any way therefore not warranting a ban. However, I have a feeling the anti-mii people would be vehemently opposed to this for their usual reasons.

As ZarroTsu said, as long as then Mii players can all come togeather and find one move set that would be universal I'm sure they would have people with influence behind them i.e Esam as stated in his tweet. However Most of them feel slighted that they would have to give up the freedom to swap move sets all willy nilly to take this compromise.
 

Murlough

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I'm fine with Miis being legalized. However, if they get the option of different custom (call them whatever you want. It IS what they are) moves and sets then so should the other characters.

My opinion is and will always be either Miis get 1111 OR specific custom movesets should be allowed FOR ALL characters. Three characters getting special treatment is unacceptable to me.

I don't care for the "they aren't overpowered anyway so why not?" argument either. With that logic custom moves would be legal for all characters because no character is "overpowered."

Throw out all the definitions you want. Throw out the "oh but you don't have to click a button on the top right of the character select so it should be ok for us!" argument all you like. I does not change the facts.

Miis should not have customs unless everyone else does.
 

san.

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Some players view Miis as these base characters with the community giving them their moves and the game making them some special exception/loophole.
Mii players view the game as allowing all the moves and the community selectively taking them away.

Seldom do mii players stray away from 1 set, but it's likely that 2 people play 2 different sets, especially if you don't use Brawler.
 

ぱみゅ

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Seldom do mii players stray away from 1 set, but it's likely that 2 people play 2 different sets, especially if you don't use Brawler.
Honestly, that's the reason I think MLG's ruleset probably had the best rule about Miis:
If you want to use a Mii, it must be registered, and you are only allowed to use that one set for your own.
It's not as flexible as possible, but at least allows players to have their preferred set.
:196:
 

wizrad

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As ZarroTsu said, as long as the Mii players can all come togeather and find one move set that would be universal I'm sure they would have people with influence behind them i.e Esam as stated in his tweet. However Most of them feel slighted that they would have to give up the freedom to swap move sets all willy nilly to take this compromise. But really what makes them so special that expections should be made? Why should they not have to compromise if the community is making an exception for them and compromising.

If you let one character have an optimised move set then palu needs to, ganon needs to, hell all the characters should get to then and we are back to the whole should customs be on thing.

All I'm really saying is if most of them really wanted to find a solution they would jump at that offer. Yet here we still are with many but not all the Mii players not willing to even give that a shot and play the martyr saying if they can't have any move set they want we might aswell outright ban them. And that's beyond childish Imo.

Anywho enough from me Ive writen a novel in this thread Ill keep the rest to myself but to anyone who cares you should really consider the option Esam proposed
I don't know why you don't get this so I'm just gonna say it simply and quickly: We aren't asking for the rules to treat us specially. We're trying to stop the rules from treating us specially. Whether the moves are custom or not doesn't mean anything when they're all available when customs are off.

And no, we don't want a solution unless it's the one that we believe is right. Something in between is like the three fifths compromise. It's moderate, but it's still wrong.

That said, I believe we should all get behind ESAM's compromise for the time being. If it happens (which it probably won't), then it won't stay for long. Lots of people on both sides will be unhappy with it. But it's some sort of motion, which gives us the chance to move somewhere better for the meta.

And just so you know, the reason why people get so worked up about this is because the privileged minority (top players and TOs) gets to completely ignore the majority (the rest of us) when we've repeatedly found that most people want Mii customs in play. This has been going on for quite some time with very little happening (MLG being the one exception), so I for one am pretty fed up with it.

Edit: Also, most of the everything or nothing people don't get the original intent of that idea. Miis are allowed all of their customs in game and there is no way to prevent that. So, if we're going to ban something, it should be the characters for being overcentralizing to the meta, as we (temporarily) did for Meta Knight. But none of the Miis is anything more than high tier, even with their moves and sizes. And even if they were OP, there isn't any evidence to support that claim. In effect, logical thinking should bring us to the conclusion that Miis should have all of their customs in customs off unless that creates a balance issue within the meta.
 
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