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Mewtwo vs Fox matchup
- Thread starter NextPain
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megabbaut
Smash Apprentice
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Mewtwo's side B, Confusion, can stop a lot of Fox's approaches. If you can read his side B, you can stop him from recovering. If he doesn't then you can easily just jump off and spike him with Dair, or throw a Shadow Ball at him. Mewtwo is floaty so he's one of the easier characters to spike with.
Also remember you can pivot side B, pivot Fsmash, and Pivot grab. It actually helps a lot.
Also remember you can pivot side B, pivot Fsmash, and Pivot grab. It actually helps a lot.
D
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ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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Dude they can bair you out of it and you can end up losing a trade. side b is only good at low %'s if you DI down/ASDI in afterwards to get a followup. Its super situational and punishable.
Anyway, neutral is pretty bad for mewtwo in this matchup and upsmash/upair kills fairly early without good DI, but I suppose you can compensate with fundamentals. He can also nairplane you if you dont DI away and down. You can stuff aerial approaches with properly spaced up-tilts and CC d-tilt/grab at low percents. As for grounded approaches you can stuff them with d-tilts, just try not to get baited and punished. Avoid throwing out moves when you have no stage control and he has room to dashdance. You can try to bait moves and punish with pivot grab/smash but space as if you have your tail in front of you. You cant get waveshined and you shouldnt die from shinespike since you have a huge jump and a teleport. Mewtwos low traction lets you shield grab shield pressure when shine has staled a bit. You can combo and edgeguard fox pretty well if you know how to. It's mostly the neutral game thats bad since fox is so much faster than you, but neutral is so important. Pick a stage with less horizontal space and a ceiling that isnt low like FoD and Battlefield, FD is good just because you can juggle him to death. The best thing to help your neutral is to get stage control so he doesnt have a lot of horizontal room to dash dance. If you know how priority works and look at foxes hitboxes, youll notice that fox doesnt really have good approaches. His speed just lets him stuff moves, punish effectively, and camp. If you corner him he cant laser or dash out and in to punish you and its really hard for him to stuff moves if you space well. This means that the fox will probably try to shield and punish or jump over you. This is when you can get punishes and pokes. I have a thread on edgeguarding spacies if you wanna check it out.
imo mewtwos worst matchup is marth. Marth beats you in neutral and you cant combo him. Sure you can kill him early but youre probably going to be losing neutral a lot. At least you have disjointed moves that can beat out fox's, Marth has way more disjoint than mewtwo.
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Mewtwo vs Fox is edge stalling and shield grabs with 0-death punishes off of a tech chase that is almost impossible due to limits in reaction time that requires a read to finish.
lol
Also sh offstage and don't stop weak bairing until he dies, then dj up b back.
dair is kinda ok in this mu, but be ready for him to meteor cancel. If they don't seem to be meteor canceling, then use it a lot more. Try reads offstage with it.
Also if it wasn't obvious enough, take him to FD. And yoshis is pretty good because he can't really camp you - so that's good if they know to ban FD. Taj likes PS but I think that's dangerous because of the ceiling and it's big (to camp on). But it's similar to FD so I understand, for combos.
lol
Also sh offstage and don't stop weak bairing until he dies, then dj up b back.
dair is kinda ok in this mu, but be ready for him to meteor cancel. If they don't seem to be meteor canceling, then use it a lot more. Try reads offstage with it.
Also if it wasn't obvious enough, take him to FD. And yoshis is pretty good because he can't really camp you - so that's good if they know to ban FD. Taj likes PS but I think that's dangerous because of the ceiling and it's big (to camp on). But it's similar to FD so I understand, for combos.
IdkLmao
Banned via Warnings
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A huge threat that fox gives mewtwo is his upair.
In the 20XX hack pack there is an option to have the fox consistently upthrow you to upair combos. Purpose being it lets you learn to DI the second hit of the up air that kills mewtwo/alot of characters so early.
If you combine this with the 20xx savestate feature then you can keep cycling through up air DI practice over and over again until it clicks. I would probably make extensive room to learn this and treat it as a necessary step in training your mewtwo because of how much fox you will see in tournaments and how helpful this is against his kill power.
Because of how aggro fox is, making room to also learn every single defensive tool mewtwo has is also important for mewtwo to survive. Shield options and such. I don't see many players at least where I am focusing on learning their defensive options down cold. So I hope that isn't a trend right now.
This last part is a stretch but, powershielding his and falcos lasers might need to be a serious training focus as well. The last thing mewtwo wants is extra damage from those lasers on top of what fox can already do.
In the 20XX hack pack there is an option to have the fox consistently upthrow you to upair combos. Purpose being it lets you learn to DI the second hit of the up air that kills mewtwo/alot of characters so early.
If you combine this with the 20xx savestate feature then you can keep cycling through up air DI practice over and over again until it clicks. I would probably make extensive room to learn this and treat it as a necessary step in training your mewtwo because of how much fox you will see in tournaments and how helpful this is against his kill power.
Because of how aggro fox is, making room to also learn every single defensive tool mewtwo has is also important for mewtwo to survive. Shield options and such. I don't see many players at least where I am focusing on learning their defensive options down cold. So I hope that isn't a trend right now.
This last part is a stretch but, powershielding his and falcos lasers might need to be a serious training focus as well. The last thing mewtwo wants is extra damage from those lasers on top of what fox can already do.
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There's no point in powershielding fox's lasers unless he only single lasers.
Also powershielding isn't that hard, depending on the projectile. It's quite easy to powershield missiles or mewtwos charge b for example, but very hard to powershield lasers. That's because lasers go fast.
Smash DI-ing uair is good but mewtwo is so big that it probably won't be possible unless fox basically misses. Also Fox players can do a 'second hit only' uair which can't be smash di'd becaause there's only one hit. Of course, many foxes don't do this (scwubs)
Mewtwos like m2ks are just a shield grab bait. That's his whole playstyle. If you want to perfect defense watch m2k.
Personally I think mewtwo needs a healthy balance of offense and defense like any character or people will realize you don't know how to do one or the other and they will crush you.
Also powershielding isn't that hard, depending on the projectile. It's quite easy to powershield missiles or mewtwos charge b for example, but very hard to powershield lasers. That's because lasers go fast.
Smash DI-ing uair is good but mewtwo is so big that it probably won't be possible unless fox basically misses. Also Fox players can do a 'second hit only' uair which can't be smash di'd becaause there's only one hit. Of course, many foxes don't do this (scwubs)
Mewtwos like m2ks are just a shield grab bait. That's his whole playstyle. If you want to perfect defense watch m2k.
Personally I think mewtwo needs a healthy balance of offense and defense like any character or people will realize you don't know how to do one or the other and they will crush you.
D
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IdkLmao
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I'm not understanding why you believe its not a good idea to learn to powershield foxes lasers. Can you talk to me more about this? Does fox get on top of you too quickly or something?
I think mewtwo can have defense beyond what we've seen. But you're right m2k is a good example to learn from for mewtwo ideas. I also agree that getting his defensive and offensive options/tech down is important.
Thanks for the DI tip for the upair melee mewtwo. That will help mewtwos ability to survive.
I think mewtwo can have defense beyond what we've seen. But you're right m2k is a good example to learn from for mewtwo ideas. I also agree that getting his defensive and offensive options/tech down is important.
Thanks for the DI tip for the upair melee mewtwo. That will help mewtwos ability to survive.
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Powershielding fox's laser is a lot harder and less rewarding than powershielding falcos lasers because they come out faster, which means less time to react, and they only do damage and no flinch. It's better to just take a platform and start charging a shadow ball, then he'll be forced to come stop you or let you get a shadow ball. If he just also takes a platform and lasers from there, cancel the ball with shield then shield drop, resume charging the ball. Continue doing this till the fox is annoyed and attacks. djc fair him or get a shield grab depending on how he approaches. Foxs lasers aren't a win button, and being able to powershield them aren't a win button either. Fox is still airborne on frame 4 and has a long sex kick nair that really hurts and combos into his best moves. Also don't forget about shdl and powershielding all those lasers is extremely impractical.
Against falco it's a bigger deal because he can flinch you and stop you from charging shadow ball. Worth learning to ps those for sure. Also be sure to practice against samus even though the mu feels lame, because psing missiles is pretty easy and important.
Against falco it's a bigger deal because he can flinch you and stop you from charging shadow ball. Worth learning to ps those for sure. Also be sure to practice against samus even though the mu feels lame, because psing missiles is pretty easy and important.
ihasabuket
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I assume that youre suggesting powershielding his lasers if you didnt have enough time to avoid them. If that's the case then yeah you should always try to powershield a projectile. Ideally you want to get out of his line of fire once he starts lasering tough. If he's pretty far you can jump and charge SB OoS onto a platform or you can WD OoS to take stage control.
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ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_SqhYat84M prof killin it
ShadowKing
Smash Ace
Against fox you have to outsmart your opponent because he can f
Reflect your sb so you need to time then correctly and pretty much try to use side b alot to turn into combos
Reflect your sb so you need to time then correctly and pretty much try to use side b alot to turn into combos
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ShadowKing
Smash Ace
If you don't know how to use it correctly
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D
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Bandit Croco
Smash Rookie
at 11:43, i did not know it did that against a laying down character. am i missing something?
Sieghart
Smash Apprentice
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Since no one else is going to take you seriously, for good reason, I'll say it. Side B is always garbage. The moment you find someone who knows anything about M2 they'll cancel out of (tumble?) immediately and hit you out of it. The only people it works on are people that don't know you can get out of it near immediately. Its only legitimate use afaik is for ledge shenanigans. That being said, I won't be talking anymore about such a useless topic.
No you're not missing anything. As far as I know there aren't any moves in the game you can't use on an opponent after missed tech so yes, it does that. The problem is usually that you wouldn't be there in time to catch it with any consistency.
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ShadowKing
Smash Ace
Shows you can't play m2
ShadowKing
Smash Ace
Hey you foff I don't troll your the troll ever here of timeingladies and gentleman we have a troll
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Comet7
Smash Lord
he must have been hit with somethign like mewtwo's confusion. that stuff is powerful.
ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryyzOimWrZo 8:53
another prof match
After looking up some fox frame data i realized dair shine on shield is unsafe. You can sheild grab before shine comes out. Well technically you grab armor through it but either way you grab him.
another prof match
After looking up some fox frame data i realized dair shine on shield is unsafe. You can sheild grab before shine comes out. Well technically you grab armor through it but either way you grab him.
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D
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ihasabuket
Smash Journeyman
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Yeah i looked it up apparently grab armor was a misconception it's just that grabs have more priority than hitboxes. Either way you can usually land a shield grab on dair shine, allow me to explain.
Dair has 2 hits which are a frame each and then a 1 frame gap where the hitbox disappears, then the cycle is repeated.
Unstaled, the first hit does 3% and the second does 2% doing 3 and 2 frames of shieldstun respectively. The move has 9 frames of landinglag so it has a -6 frame advantage at best which is if the 1st hit is unstaled and is the last hit before you land. Since dair's hits 1,2, and the gap happen on consecutive frames you will have the frame advantage to shield grab 2/3 times without even having to outspace it. Even then mewtwo's low traction should allow you to get shield grabs even when fox gets a frame perfect unstaled dairshine that hits late on the 1st hit. IMO its always worth trying for a shield grab against dairshine.
Dair has 2 hits which are a frame each and then a 1 frame gap where the hitbox disappears, then the cycle is repeated.
Unstaled, the first hit does 3% and the second does 2% doing 3 and 2 frames of shieldstun respectively. The move has 9 frames of landinglag so it has a -6 frame advantage at best which is if the 1st hit is unstaled and is the last hit before you land. Since dair's hits 1,2, and the gap happen on consecutive frames you will have the frame advantage to shield grab 2/3 times without even having to outspace it. Even then mewtwo's low traction should allow you to get shield grabs even when fox gets a frame perfect unstaled dairshine that hits late on the 1st hit. IMO its always worth trying for a shield grab against dairshine.