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Q&A Mewtwo Philosophy - Q&A Ask Away

Which topic would you like to discuss?

  • Analyzing your opponent

    Votes: 39 59.1%
  • What is a gimmick?

    Votes: 27 40.9%

  • Total voters
    66

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,555
pretty surprised you can't fix the projectile reflection, when i knew how to mod brawl that was a pretty easy change D:

disable doing 12% is a bit much imo :p

is there any way you can make canceling shadowball charge faster? air charge move but it can't be canceled that fast (compared to sheik needle/dk punch)
i just feel like if you helped his hurtbox and made his movement better he'd be pretty cool in the first place.
adding faster sbc canceling will let him do double jump cancel sbc things :o
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
Yeah Brawl and Melee are different. For better and worse. :I

Considering its...quirks...12% is fine...for now. If disable wasn't complete garbage on airborne opponents not in hitstun, then yeah 12% would be so free.

His hurtbox is still...bad because of the tail. We'll have to see if it cripples SD Remix Mewtwo as much as it does vanilla Mewtwo. New Mewtwo, new match-ups, almost a new game. :p

Interesting tidbit about the SBC, I'll look into that later. I'll have to note that editing Specials in this game is very difficult and very restrictive. It's too bad considering the Melee engine itself is generally a fan favorite.
 

Shadow Huan

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
2,224
Location
Springfield, MA
yeah one of the guys in the crew i was a part of for a while commented several times that mewtwo would get hit by things that he shouldn't have gotten hit by when we were playing. i've been hit in the tail as mewtwo more times than i can remember.

also taj vs silentspectre @ DGDTJ

so the tail hurtbox is a big problem; perhaps the way you sped up the character will help?

does teleport still have an 8 frame startup? (which is sorta silly for a move that is described in the game as a way to get out of bad situations)

i watched the video and fsmash looked strong as heck no complaints on how the character looked, i just have questions lol

/ramble

:phone:
 

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,555
ugh melee mewtwo makes me so mad. terribly designed!
well in the first place, i would say it's a mistake to put mewtwo in a game where he fights mario/link/etc just because mewtwo is supposed to be such a powerful character in canon
fast, strong, can recover, psychic etc

but yeah he's just got so many things working against him i don't know
i would think mewtwo playstyle would be, a very strong character but hard to use (because he's lv 70 you know? gotta have some badges...) making him hard to use with awkward mobility is fine, maybe his moves have specific hitboxes, maybe his attacks need to be used precisely
but he's too big and gets hit too easily, doesn't have fast enough moves a lot of times, his throw range is bad which doesn't make much sense for a telekinetic psychic monster, etc etc
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
idk how long ago you asked for "what is a gimmick?" and "how to analyze your opponent" as a poll, but i feel like cheese and gimmicks are pretty much the same thing, except cheese is an isolated instance/an isolated strategy, whereas a gimmick is more of a consistent trait in your gameplay.

i've read somewhere that in RTS games, cheese is a super high-risk, super high reward strategy that only really catches people who are off guard, and i feel like this is similar in melee, although it would probably have to be modified slightly to fit the game and the conventional usage of the term better.

i feel like whether picking f*ggot stages (@Kyle Schroder) should be classified as "cheese" is debatable and dependent upon one's definition of cheese. i feel like it's similar to cheese in the traditional sense, but it doesn't fit with the "high-risk, high reward" strategy, necessarily.... although it DOES run with the "catches people who are off guard" portion of the proposed cheese definition.... and it'd be easier to modify the definition of the word to accommodate those kinds of strats.

</procrastinating>
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
In SC2, cheese is basically anything that loses if your opponent sees it coming or scouts it properly. The only good cheeses are the kind that win really fast (e.g. proxy rax or 4gate). I'd assume it's the same with other RTS's.

(Man, I knew I played that game for a while for a reason.)

In Smash, you only get wrecked by obscure stages if you haven't played on them. It's really more medium-risk medium-reward though, because nobody practices on counterpicks for some reason and they don't give that big of an advantage in most cases.

A gimmick, IMO, can also be read as "something I don't like". Wonder if DrinkingFood namesearches...
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
i think that fits

i think something can qualify as a "gimmick" if it's something cheesy (i.e. loses if someone sees it coming or properly defends against it) that someone consistently exploits (i.e. it is a characteristic of them as a player)
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
i've been hit in the tail as mewtwo more times than i can remember.
Definitely not an isolated incident. It has happened to all of us. ;<

so the tail hurtbox is a big problem; perhaps the way you sped up the character will help?
Maybe. It was still a "problem" in the sample exhibition match of SD Remix Mewtwo vs Roy. My playstyle with Mewtwo is mad unrefined though so hopefully when Taj comes around and playtests this we'll see for sure.

doesleport still have an 8 frame startup? (which is sorta silly for a move that is described in the game as a way to get out of bad situations)
it now only has 4 frame start-up.


i watched the video and fsmash looked strong as heck no complaints on how the character looked, i just have questions lol
two frame active duration and forever start-up? it needs to hit like a truck lol. ;)
 

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,555
cheese as it applies to starcraft can't really apply to smash in the same sense quite as easily.

the reason here is that starcraft games are all heavily reliant on resource management. cheese is basically putting a lot of resources into a very inflexible plan that, if countered correctly, means that you will lose because you put too much resources into that cheese to recover
smash doesn't have as pure of resource management so it's hard to measure cheese in terms of that. you can still think of cheese/gimmicks as very unsafe maneuvers that if successful have a big payoff
although it's fun to think of parallels between games but this is a case where i think just sticking with the word "gimmick" is better.

i don't think running something you've never ran before vs something you normally do to surprise opponents even if it is easily counterable has anything to do if it is a gimmick or not.
 

Shadow Huan

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
2,224
Location
Springfield, MA
watched the entire video, i'll edit this post or post again later with opinions (only based off what i saw)

i wish this was gonna be as accesible as project m, i'd gladly test the character for you (i'm not taj but i played the character competitivly for 3 years so i'm not totally ignorant lol)

:phone:
 

DJLO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Messages
355
Location
Tallahassee
so im determined to find a good use for disable and confusion and i thought of another situation that might make confusion usable. what if you use confusion to interrupt someone recovering with an up-b? if the choose to hit you with a back air, they'll start falling.

do they get another double jump/up b after you confuse them?

also, is the pull-through glitch banned everywhere? because thats basically the only use for it.

im also trying to test if the pull through on other stages can be useful. if it isnt performed on battlefield, it forces the opponent to grab the ledge. if i can figure out how to make that an advantage(some attack that gimps ledge-holding opponents) then it will be useful.

disable is a different story, since it isnt a bad trade if it hits. im just trying to figure out how to make it better.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,501
Location
MT. OLYMPUS, Arizona
Confusion gives them their double jump back.

Confusion through ledges is not banned in tournament. (It is very easy to recover from it, people just aren't used to it.)

Disable out of shield is pretty much the most solid use for the move since it also lets you adjust the spacing advancing or retreating a little bit.

Ledge confusion is good, because it is essentially free damage on anyone close. You just accept that putting them on the ledge doesn't benefit you directly, but if they try to punish you for it, you can just double jump around them and go to center stage and reset positioning. You only get owned for it if you try to recover directly into them after doing it.
 

DJLO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Messages
355
Location
Tallahassee
Confusion gives them their double jump back.

Confusion through ledges is not banned in tournament. (It is very easy to recover from it, people just aren't used to it.)

Disable out of shield is pretty much the most solid use for the move since it also lets you adjust the spacing advancing or retreating a little bit.

Ledge confusion is good, because it is essentially free damage on anyone close. You just accept that putting them on the ledge doesn't benefit you directly, but if they try to punish you for it, you can just double jump around them and go to center stage and reset positioning. You only get owned for it if you try to recover directly into them after doing it.
thanks again for helping me on my quest to buff mewtwo.
 

Sweet™

Smash Famous @PennStateSweet #SweetNation
Premium
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
995
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Northeast Ohio/Pittsburgh
This has probably been asked at least a thousand times.

When Mewtwo's neutral B move is fully charged, does it increase the attack power or knockback of his other attacks.

Noticed that my opponent glows a weird color when I hit them after it's fully charged.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
The only kinda useful thing about confusion is once your opponent knows they can just bair you out of it........you can do it expecting to get hit and CC dtilt when u are at low percent. Id only try it when u just respawned and they are at high percent.

on stadium u can confuse them under the platforms and they usually miss the tech and puts u in a good positon.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
In all honesty....even good players forget if you dont constantly abuse that **** in friendlies.

I only use it in Tourney and MMs, otherwise Id hope they would slip up or forget about it.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

PhD; Smash Community Studies
Premium
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Feb 1, 2012
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Ontario, Canada
3DS FC
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I just got back from a tournament. A few of my matches got streamed (idk if they'll be uploaded to youtube). Go to ~2:59:00 to see my sets (they're back to back) The first game is my Mewtwo against Europhoria's Marth, then you have to skip through a couple game where I used Ganon and then I'm using Mewtwo against DVK's Doctor Mario.

Any tips/advice would be great, this is the first time any of my matches have been recorded.

Thanks in advance
 

ShadowSpear

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 21, 2011
Messages
112
Location
Orlando FL.
I just got back from a tournament. A few of my matches got streamed (idk if they'll be uploaded to youtube). Go to ~2:59:00 to see my sets (they're back to back) The first game is my Mewtwo against Europhoria's Marth, then you have to skip through a couple game where I used Ganon and then I'm using Mewtwo against DVK's Doctor Mario.

Any tips/advice would be great, this is the first time any of my matches have been recorded.

Thanks in advance
Do you have a link to these matches?

:phone:
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

PhD; Smash Community Studies
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Just tried to watch the stream, but it was unbarebly laggy for me... If they put the matches up on youtube, then I should be able to check it out without any problems.

:phone:
How long did you try and watch it? They were laggy for me at first but after about 15-20 seconds it stopped being laggy.
 

ShadowSpear

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 21, 2011
Messages
112
Location
Orlando FL.
How long did you try and watch it? They were laggy for me at first but after about 15-20 seconds it stopped being laggy.
I tried to watch it for about 3 mins. and it was nothing but straight lag. I couldn't even get through the entire first match... : \

:phone:
 

Shadow Huan

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
2,224
Location
Springfield, MA
if no one more qualified steps in, i shall be happy to check out your mew2 and give some opinions blackgold.

marth vs mew2 is stupid if the marth plays it right -_-

EDIT: won't be able to get to a comp till tomorrow tho, stay tuned lol

:phone:
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

PhD; Smash Community Studies
Premium
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Ontario, Canada
3DS FC
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Yeah, the Marth that I was playing told me that he had Random Mewtwo experience from Tect (whom I have never met, but was described to me as a very technical player who plays pretty much every character). He also had a lot of Ganon experience, so it was essentially hell for me to play him lol.
 

Shadow Huan

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
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Springfield, MA
okay here we go.

right off the bat...

Never allow yourself to be taken to Yoshi's Story against a Marth player

Ban it, every time. mewtwo needs room to move, and Marth literally controls the entire stage by simply existing (bar against shiek and the spacies). not that there are amazing stages for mewtwo in this MU, but Yoshi's is at the bottom of the list. try for Dreamland or FD next time (perhaps FoD?). the bigger the stage/blastzones the better

also the commentator literally made me LOL. it's at least a 70-30 MU in marth's favor (Maaaaaaaaybe 60-40 if you specialize in it like Taj, but even he has said he thinks it's worse even if it feels 60-40 to him). marth ***** mewtwo. no seriously

and i only have some general gameplay tips against marth, on a stage that isn't Yoshi's (lol)

stop trying to challenge marth with nair, or any of mewtwo's air moves for that matter. you should only be going into the air against marth if you're already comboing him. a perfectly spaced upair might be an exception, although i seem to recall marth being able to spike mewtwo's tail in the middle of the move. I'm not too sure about that tho

you need to work on your OoS game. SH teleport, wavedashing, even rolling will do you more favors than trying for a shield grab, or not moving at all. most marth's have a rythm to the way they play, and mewtwo is mobile enough to take advantage of said rythm. if he wiffs, get in there and make him eat some damage. if you can get the kill then go for it, if not then back off and try to reset in a way that will benefit you.

some BSBs will be very helpful for this, because when Marth's in the air, he'll either hit it, use his double jump, or eat some damage, most of the time if you react fast enough you can take advantage of the slight stun to hit him some more lol. that being said fight the urge to fully charge a Shadowball when fighting Marth (unless you're feeling brave lol); you need the smaller ones for weak zoning and tricksies, because it's the only move you have that has better reach than Marth :urg:

oh, and try not to let him get under you. and always try for the first port, it's the best one (I don't really remember where you spawn on Yoshi's tho)

even if the character beats mewtwo, you can beat the player.

Game two is your Ganondorf, not really a bad CP (Most marth's don't like the MU, i personally happen to like it a lot tho lol)

why did you go back to Yoshi's tho? >.<

only thing i notcied in that one is that your Lcancelling needs work :urg:

also @ commentator #2, don't nerf marth nerf the spacies :awesome:


good job against the Doc, my only exp vs that character is as marth tho, no comments besides to try to learn to tilt the pills (about 90% sure you can do that)

So that's all i've got, sorry if it came across as preachy, i'm only average at putting my thoughts down as text.

do you travel at all? if you end up at one of the upcoming NE (MA) tournaments i'd gladly meet you and play against you. Smashachussetts would be best
 

DJLO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Messages
355
Location
Tallahassee
ok so im pretty sure that it is possible to hit with confusion and not get punished.

as weve said, you get a free hit if you are on the ledge(it will either battlefield glitch them or force them to grab the ledge[fun fact, cpus will always double jump in time, but humans will almost always grab the ledge]).

and of course if they dont know they can back air, and try to tech instead, you get a fake infinite(they can also double jump or air dodge)

but i think there is another use: if they are above you and there is a platform between you. they cant be on the platform, because they will just get pulled through. but if they are a bit above the platform, and you are below it, they will slam into the platform before they can back-air(or anything else).

its pretty dang situational, but considering the move's command grab properties(breaking through the enemy's attack), it can be a viable way to get a 10%, and a free tech chase(id probably just nair afterwards).

if its hard to visualize, imagine this: you are on battlefield(i mean cmon youre mewtwo you better be on bf) in the middle of the stage. the enemy has just used a jump-up from the ledge and is travelling in the air towards the center, about the hit the platform. you short-hop towards and confuse.

tricky, and yeah maybe uair is a better idea. but we can just add it to his janky-ass gimmick toolbox.

sorry if this is getting old but im "that guy" who never gives up on ****ty moves(sub zeroes ice puddle in mk9, anyone?)
 
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