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Mewtwo Patch 1.1.3

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Metalex

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There seems to be a misconception by multiple people that ff Fair > Dtilt / Utilt / Fair / Nair is a new thing this patch, but it was actually just as possible before the update. However, the percentage ranges where it combos should be slightly wider now than before since Fair has gotten a reduction in landing lag so the applications for falling Fair combos is much better.

Chiroz Chiroz Haven't given much thought into falling Nair combos before the patch but now i really gotta take a serious look at it. That looked crazy!
 
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Chiroz

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There seems to be a misconception by multiple people that ff Fair > Dtilt / Utilt / Fair / Nair is a new thing this patch, but it was actually just as possible before the update. However, the percentage ranges where it combos should be slightly wider now than before since Fair has gotten a reduction in landing lag so the applications for falling Fair combos is much better.

Chiroz Chiroz Haven't given much thought into falling Nair combos before the patch but now i really gotta take a serious look at it. That looked crazy!

This was possible pre-patch. I told all of you guys 5 months ago that there was plenty of 0-Death potential with N-Air. But it was just too extremely sensitive timing wise. It's why I made a thread asking people to lab how to control N-Air and no one listened to me xD.


With the 3 extra frames the combos are not as time sensitive (although they are still crazy ****ing hard to do, just not impossible) and we now literally must have several 0-Deaths. Some will be weight dependent, some will be situational, some will be % dependent, but I am sure we have several of them now.
 

Aninymouse

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I'm loving all the videos! These really help me learn how to do them.

Here's hoping Sakurai won't nerf Mewtwo in February... M2 seems to have a shot at being high tier with combos like these!

I'm posting vids and change logs and stuff to r/mewtwomains, trying to keep everything in one spot. Place is pretty well dead, but if you guys want to post your own Mewtwo vids there, please, by all means.
 
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RayNoire

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Both falling Fair to Fair and Fair to Dtilt were there pre-patch. So far I haven't seen anything combo-wise that I'm 100% sure is new to the patch except maybe the Uair stuff.
 

Top Boss

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When I meant nair comboing into itself previously, I meant doing repeated short hop neutral airs.
each nair would still have the final launching hitbox though.
 
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Chiroz

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Both falling Fair to Fair and Fair to Dtilt were there pre-patch. So far I haven't seen anything combo-wise that I'm 100% sure is new to the patch except maybe the Uair stuff.

Those combo finishers Lwin is doing U-Air to F-Air were not able to be chained from another move while moving forward like they can be now.

U-Air change definitely gave us that. Before in order to chain forward movement into the U-Air to F-Air finisher you could only hit with one of the weak hitboxes, which means the opponent had to be around 80% to even try to get a combo like that and probably at that % F-Air would just throw you away way too far.

The fact that the weak hitboxes now combo into F-Air (and I suspect the movespeed buff) is what allows that last part of the 0-Death to connect.

I guess technically this is the new U-Air stuff but you wrote "maybe". Also the change to N-Air definitely made N-Air chaining a viable thing instead of just a dream.
 
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Chiroz

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Strangely it almost seems to make sense with the way Mewtwo's swinging his tail.
There's a lot of attacks that are based on the angle the hitbox connects with instead of just the angle between you and your opponent. Mewtwo's B-Air is one of those.

Those attacks are actually the ones that make sense in a real world, the ones that don't make sense are the other ones. Like someone swinging a sword forward in a downward manner and somehow knocking you towards his back and into the ceiling just because your body was slightly behind his.
 

Browny

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https://youtu.be/0H2mrN2VCkoVCko
Lol. It may look a bit goofy but its legit. The other hitboxes take priority, luckily dtilt sets up perfectly for it.
That's really good... looks like Mewtwo has more combos than most characters in this game now, completely serious.

Lets not forget that this particular combo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-mo8v444bA
now is a bit easier to pull off since dair hits lower and fair comes out earlier and hits further, this should massively widen the % range it works on, and the amount of characters it hits. Its easily his highest damage punish from mid %'s onwards.
 
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LRodC

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This is exciting stuff. Can't wait to lab these combos later on. Doubt the zero to death is actually a zero to death with good DI, but it still looks like a great damage racker.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Falling fair to usmash 30-35% tested on Marth
Falling fair to uair 30-40% tested on marth
Falling fair to bair 30-40% tested on marth
 

Metalex

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That's really good... looks like Mewtwo has more combos than most characters in this game now, completely serious.

Lets not forget that this particular combo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-mo8v444bA
now is a bit easier to pull off since dair hits lower and fair comes out earlier and hits further, this should massively widen the % range it works on, and the amount of characters it hits. Its easily his highest damage punish from mid %'s onwards.
It's also possible to fj Dair > dj Bair > ff Bair for 38% damage which is a variation of that combo, even though it's slightly more difficult to pull off (easiest to perform if the Dair is hit facing away from the opponent)
 
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Browny

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I'm not so sure about that, in my testing dair to fair had a 2 frame window to pull it off. Bair is a good 5 frames too slow for it
 

Metalex

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I'm not so sure about that, in my testing dair to fair had a 2 frame window to pull it off. Bair is a good 5 frames too slow for it
Yeah it registers on the combo counter and i've tested it with correct DI (This worked prepatch too). The percentage range where it combos seems to be about 55 - 80% on midweights
 
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godogod

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Are Mewtwo's air speeds confirmed to still be the same? Horizontal, fall, and fast fall speed? Just wondering if they have been tested.
 
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Browny

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I'm going to spend some time tonight figuring out frame windows on certain combos with optimal DI etc. If I find anything good I'll make a video. Now that I have my capture card back I can do this stuff easily. If anyone wants frame data on certain combos let me know I'll figure it out.

Going to first try and identify what the supposed change to sideb was, and the size of shadowballs hitbox and quantify this. I have 2 WiiUs right next to each other on different versions.

-

I can not for the life of me see any difference in confusion. Every aspect of it looks the same

Shadowballs hitbox is definitely bigger.

dthrow - jcusmash is pretty much inescapable on most of the cast at 0%, only those with really fast nairs can break it.
 
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godogod

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I haven't thought about it earlier, bit I wonder if shadowball's charge time has been affected. If anyone knows the exact time it took to charge before the patch, that would be cool. I'll see if I can do some testing myself.

edit: Takes 2.44 seconds to charge it in previous patches apparently..
 
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Sonicninja115

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This was possible pre-patch. I told all of you guys 5 months ago that there was plenty of 0-Death potential with N-Air. But it was just too extremely sensitive timing wise. It's why I made a thread asking people to lab how to control N-Air and no one listened to me xD.


With the 3 extra frames the combos are not as time sensitive (although they are still crazy ****ing hard to do, just not impossible) and we now literally must have several 0-Deaths. Some will be weight dependent, some will be situational, some will be % dependent, but I am sure we have several of them now.
I believe that is why I made the Nair KB thread... What more do you want?
 

Browny

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I haven't thought about it earlier, bit I wonder if shadowball's charge time has been affected. If anyone knows the exact time it took to charge before the patch, that would be cool. I'll see if I can do some testing myself.
Its the same, tested side by side at 1/4 speed.
 

Aninymouse

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Going to first try and identify what the supposed change to sideb was, and the size of shadowballs hitbox and quantify this. I have 2 WiiUs right next to each other on different versions.-



I can not for the life of me see any difference in confusion. Every aspect of it looks the same
Yes, please do. No one has bothered to try and figure out how Confusion has changed, yet. We know they did something to it, but no one knows what.
 

Sonicninja115

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Corrected about Fair combos being new, but for some reason they were barely discussed before.

I am still hopping on the Fair-Combo bandwagon though, Fair is safe on shield now. It is rather amazing.

FF Uair-Bair has been known for a while.

I'm not so sure about that, in my testing dair to fair had a 2 frame window to pull it off. Bair is a good 5 frames too slow for it
They decreased the landing lag of Dair and increased it's frames right? this could make the combo easier.
 

Metalex

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Browny Browny In case you still don't believe me here's what the fj Dair > dj Bair > Bair combo looks like:

I think the reason it works is simply cause it's done at a higher percentage range which leaves the opponent in more hitstun than in the fj Dair > dj Fair combo you showed, so the extra 5 frames of Bair doesn't matter.

 
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Sonicninja115

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Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt has a rather interesting timing. It seems that there is a 10-15 frame window? That Mewtwo can FF in to get the opponent in front of him. It definetly isn't that big of a window.
 

Aninymouse

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Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt has a rather interesting timing. It seems that there is a 10-15 frame window? That Mewtwo can FF in to get the opponent in front of him. It definetly isn't that big of a window.
I can do it without fast falling at all, but the timing is hard to get down.
 

Ixisnaugus

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Btw, here's the 0-Death combo done in a real match vs a friend.

https://youtu.be/yltskc53Lyg
A few questions for you. First one is how do you manage to connect dtilt nair so early on? I can't seem to get it to come up as a combo in training mode?

Second is what method or visual queue do you use to determine when to fast fall nair to make them land infront? I've looked at the nair guide made by one of the users here, but the results I had differed from what it suggested.
 

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Making them pop out in front of you with SH nair ff is weird now. They seem to pop out behind me more often than not now since the patch. I think it's due to the increased dash speed because running and nair'ing into them causes them to drag behind a bit as mewtwo is travelling too far forward, so you have to slow mewtwo down before fast falling, either during nair (holding back) or before.
Although Kam said our air speed doesn't slow down during nair now (is this true), so that could also be a reason.
 
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Lwin

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Getting Nair to combo and getting the opponent to land in one direction consistently will be a challenge. Here are some factors we should take into consideration.
I suspect that certain hitboxes in the Nair are giving more frame advantage than others. Maybe because they simply lock them into stun longer, or they spend more time stunned in the air and the stun wears off once they hjt the ground (unlikely but whatever.) Or perhaps the hitstun is uniform and the trick is to land while leaving your opponent as high as possible in the air.
We should take into account our movement direction and speed. While you're dragging the opponent with you in nair its possible they'll end up being dragged behind you as you move in a certain direction. We should test out if our mobility, the direction we're facing, and how fast we are moving has any influence on how much frame advantage we get. Fastfalling should be either neglected or kept constant seeing as that's another variable we need to test out on its own.
As far as fastfalling goes, I've personally gotten different results with regards to where the opponent lands depending on the timing of my fastfall, but I'm not too sure about frame advantage. I'm pretty sure there's about 3, maybe four different fastfall timings in relation to how many hits of the nair you'll end up getting in. The timings aren't too hard to get right consistently either, to the point where they'll be second nature with some practice.
Both of the above should be tested first independently and then in conjunction so that we get as accurate info as possible on how to make this combo work. Also, I'm sure you all know this, but characters react to nair in different ways, I know for example fox ends up in front of me much more often than shiek did. Depending on the factor that determines whether or not you can combo off Nair, it might be easier to combo some characters over others. There's also the possibility that we're not comboing out of hitstun always, but sometimes the narrow window of regular landing lag. Which might be improbable, but might account for some of the discrepancies with the training mode combo counter, since I'm pretty sure it doesn't count landing lag as a window for extending combos. If it does turn out to be that, then we will have some characters that will be objectively easier to combo since we'd have a bigger window depending on their soft/hard landing lag. I dont know which one the game forces them into, can someone clarify for me?
I'm mewtwo.
I'd do some of this myself right now but it's late/early. Will hit that lab later on.
 
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Ixisnaugus

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Okay I spent a long time labbing and I came up with a result that causes Fox and Sheik to fall in front of Mewtwo 100% of the time regardless of how far I go forward while nairing.

As Mewtwo descends from the peak of his jump, input the fast fall. I tried multiple scenarios as well and these were the results I came up with:

Back and Front refer to the positions the opponent goes when they land from the nair.

Mewtwo and fox facing eachother, no inputs. 6 back 4 front.

Mewtwo moving into fox. 8 back 2 front.

Mewtwo moving away from fox. 6 front 4 back.

Mewtwo fast falling as soon as, no directions. 5 front, 5 back.

Mewtwo moving into fox, fast falling as soon as. 7 front, 3 back.

Mewtwo moving away from fox, fast falling as soon as. 9 back 1 front.

Mewtwo moving into fox, fast falling a brief moment after he starts to fall from peak of jump. 10 front 0 back.
 
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Sonicninja115

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Okay I spent a long time labbing and I came up with a result that causes Fox and Sheik to fall in front of Mewtwo 100% of the time regardless of how far I go forward while nairing.

As Mewtwo descends from the peak of his jump, input the fast fall. I tried multiple scenarios as well and these were the results I came up with:

Back and Front refer to the positions the opponent goes when they land from the nair.

Mewtwo and fox facing eachother, no inputs. 6 back 4 front.

Mewtwo moving into fox. 8 back 2 front.

Mewtwo moving away from fox. 6 front 4 back.

Mewtwo fast falling as soon as, no directions. 5 front, 5 back.

Mewtwo moving into fox, fast falling as soon as. 7 front, 3 back.

Mewtwo moving away from fox, fast falling as soon as. 9 back 1 front.

Mewtwo moving into fox, fast falling a brief moment after he starts to fall from peak of jump. 10 front 0 back.
I believe I found the method a while ago.

From a FH on a grounded opponent, with no inputs, Nair will send the opponent according to Mewtwo's and the opponent direction.

Then, with DI, it all depends on where the opponent is before you land. If the opponent is behind Mewtwo, that is the direction he is going to go. You can influence this and allow a follow-up by DIing one direction, and then changing DI at the last 1/5.

When using Dtilt-Nair, there is a certain hitbox you need to hit for Mewtwo to land in front. You have to get the timing down, and there is no easy way to explain it.

BTW, all this is in my guide. I will update it soon, but there isn't a lot more to add.
 
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