Data Mewtwo Frame Data - 3.02

[KuroganeHammer]

Mewtwo's Frame Data​

[intro paragraph.]

[COLLAPSE="Current Requests"]

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Table of Contents :
( To skip to a section, Ctrl + F and search for its 4-letter code. )

Section 1: Standard Terms [TRMS]
Section 2: Frame & Hitbubble Data [FRME]

2.1 Ground Moves [GRND]
2.2 Aerial Moves [AERL]
2.3 Specials [SPCL]
2.4 Ledge Moves [LDGE]
2.5 Tech & Trip Moves [TCHM]
2.6 Item Moves [ITMM]​

Section 3: Sticker & Moveset Attributes [STCK]
Section 4: Credits [CRDT]​

Section 1 / Standard Terms [TRMS]

[COLLAPSE="Terms List"]Hitbox Active: Frames during which the attack's hitboxes are active.
FAF (First Actionable Frame): First frame on which you can perform another move. This will be the animation's end or the IASA frame if the move has one.
Base Damage: Base damage values for each hit.
Angle: Angle at which the opponent will be knocked away.
BKB: Base knockback of the move.
KBG: Knockback growth of the move. This number affects how quickly knockback will increase relative to the opponent's damage.
Block Advantage: Ground moves only. Frame difference between Mewtwo's FAF and the opponent's when the move hits the opponent's shield. Counted from first hit frame per damage value. Add +7 to find the normal shield drop advantage.
Landing Lag: Aerials only. Number of frames Mewtwo lags when he hits the ground during the move.
Autocancel: Aerials only. Frames during which Mewtwo can land without the aerial move's landing lag. (He will instead suffer normal jump landing lag.)
Intangibility: Frames during which Mewtwo will take no damage.
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Section 2 / Frame & Hitbubble Data [FRME]

2.1 Ground Moves [GRND]

Attacks | Hitbox Active | FAF | Base Dmg. | Block Adv. Jab 1 | 8-9 | 18 | 6 | -5
Jab 2 | 21-22, 28-29, 36-37, 44-45...| 36 | 2 | -12
Dash Attack | 10-14, 15-29 | 38 | 9, 6 | -21
Ftilt (All angles) | 6-8 | 29 | 6/8/10 | -18
Utilt | 6, 7-13 | 28 | 10/8/6/5 | -15
Dtilt | 5-7 | 25 | 9/8/5 | -12
Fsmash |18-21 | 52 | 12/20 | -26
Usmash (1st hit) | 7-8 | - | 1 | -
Usmash (2-7th hit) | 9-10, 13-14, 17-18, 21-22, 25-26, 29-30 | - | 1 | -
Usmash (8th hit) | 33-34 | 62 | 10 | -22
Dsmash | 20-22, 23-36 | 40 | 17/15, 17/7 | -10
Grabs | Hitbox Active | FAF | Base Dmg. | {colsp=6} Notes Standing Grab | 7-8 | 30 | - | {colsp=6}Average.
Dash Grab | 9-10 | 41 | - | {colsp=6}Average.
Pivot Grab | 9-10 | 30 | - | {colsp=6}Average.
Grab Pummel | 11-14 | 28 | 3 | {colsp=6}Slow.
Throws | Weight Dependant? | Notes Fthrow | Yes | -
Bthrow | Yes | -
Uthrow | Yes | -
Dthrow | No | -
Miscellaneous | Intangibility | FAF | {colsp=7} Notes Spotdodge | 2-18 | 28 | {colsp=7}Average. Goes invisible on frames 3-17.
Forward Roll | 4-19 | 39 | {colsp=7}Distance-wise is longer than most.
Back Roll | 4-19 | 39 | {colsp=7}Distance-wise is longer than most.
Shielddrop | - | 15 |
Up Taunt | - | 123 | {colsp=7}Mewtwo floats as long as you hold taunt.
Side Taunt | - | 100 | {colsp=7}
Down Taunt | - | 100 | {colsp=7}

2.2 Aerial Moves [AERL]

Attacks | Hitbox Active | FAF | Base Dmg. | Landing Lag/L-Cancel | Autocancel | Notes Nair | 5-6, 9-10, 13-14, 17-18, 21-22, 25-26, 29-30, 33-34, 37-38 | 42 | 2/1, 4 | 24/12 | 1-4, 37-41
Fair | 5-7 | 36 | 14 | 16/8 | 35
Bair | 8-11 | 28 | 11/11/13 | 26/13 | 1, 26-27
Uair | 7, 8-9, 10-12 | 30 | 10, 12/14, 11/9/7 | 20/10 | 1-3, 28-29
Dair | 15-19 | 44 | 14/15/16, 10/11/12 | 18/9 | 1-4, 42-43
Jump Data | Jump Squat Duration | SH Air Time | FH Air Time | Empty Landing | {colsp=5} Notes
| 5 | 35 | 61 | 5 | {colsp=5}
Miscellaneous | Intangibility | Invisible on | {colsp=8} Notes Airdodge | 4-29 | 5-28 | {colsp=8}

2.3 Specials [SPCL]

Attacks | Hitbox Active | FAF | Base Dmg. | Block Adv. | Notes Shadow Ball (Charge) | 10 | - | Charging: ? | Variable | I don't understand charge's damage formula
Shadow Ball (Shot) | 18 | 35 | Shot: 3-25% | Variable | Absorbable, Reflectable
Confusion (Grab) | 12-13 | 49 | 10% | Unshieldable | Command grab.
Confusion (Windbox) | 15 | 49 | 0% | - | Very weak windboxes.
Confusion (Reflection) | 6-30 | 49 | - | - | Reflects projectiles.
Teleport (Grounded) | - | 47 | - | No hitboxes| Invisible on 8-18, 20, 22
Teleport (Aerial) | - | 23 | - | No hitboxes | Invisible on 8-18, 20, 22
Disable | 15-21 | 40 | Grounded: 1% Airborne: 10% | -22 |

2.4 Ledge Moves [LDGE]

Attacks | Hitbox Active | Intangibility | FAF | Base Dmg. | Block Adv. | Notes Ledge Attack <100% | 26-30 | 1-22 | 56 | 8/8/8/6 | -24
Ledge Attack >100% | 50-52 | 1-46 | 70 | 10 | -13
Miscellaneous | Intangibility | FAF | {colsp=7} Notes Ledge Grab |
Ledge Climb <100% | 1-30 | 34
Ledge Climb >100% | 1-55 | 60
Ledge Roll <100% | 1-27 | 50
Ledge Roll >100% | 1-74 | 80
Ledge Jump <100% | 1-15 | 16
Ledge Jump >100% | 1-20 | 21

2.5 Tech & Trip Moves [TCHM]

Attacks | Hitbox Active | Intangibility | FAF | Base Dmg. | Block Adv. | Notes Get Up Attack (Back) | 18-31 | 1-31 | 47 | 6/6/5/5 | -24
Get Up Attack (Stomach) | 20-35 | 1-35 | 50 | 7/7/5/5 | -24
Trip Attack | 18-31 | 1-8 | 47 | 6/6/5/5 | -24
Miscellaneous | Intangibility | FAF | {colsp=7} Notes Tech | 1-20 | 26 | Universal.
Tech Roll | 1-20 | 40 | Universal.
Stand (Back & Stomach) | 1-22 | 31 |
Get Up Roll Forward (Back) | 1-21 | 36 |
Get Up Roll Backward (Back) | 1-22 | 36 |
Get Up Roll Forward (Stomach) | 1-19 | 36 |
Get Up Roll Backward (Stomach) | 1-24 | 36 |
Trip | 1-6 | 34
Trip Get Up | 1-17 | 26
Trip Roll Forward | 1-17 | 36
Trip Roll Backward | 1-17 | 36

2.6 Item Moves [ITMM]

| Item Thrown On | FAF | Notes Forward Toss (Ground) | 13 | 25
Back Toss (Ground) | 12 | 27
Up Toss (Ground) | 13 | 27
Down Toss (Ground) | 13 | 29 | Hitbox does not come out.
Dash Toss | 9 | 37
Forward Toss (Air) | 12 | 25
Back Toss (Air) | 11 | 25
Up Toss (Air) | 12 | 25
Down Toss (Air) | 10 | 25

Section 3 / Sticker & Moveset Attributes [STCK]

Jab 1 - Foot/Darkness
Even though he uses his hand, this is a foot attack.
Jab 2 - Hand/Aura
This is Aura but looks like Darkness. I checked this like, 3 times. Not sure what's up here.
Dash Attack - Foot/Darkness|Foot/Darkness|Foot/Normal
One of the three hitboxes uses the Normal attribute
Ftilt - Hand/Normal
Tail confirmed to be Mewtwo's hand.
Utilt - Foot/Normal
Tail confirmed to be Mewtwo's foot.
Dtilt - Foot/Normal
Is this real life?
Fsmash - Hand/Normal|Hand/Darkness
Sourspot uses Normal attribute.
Usmash - Hand/Darkness
Not much to say here.
Dsmash - Explosive/Darkness
Mewtwo getting a bit excited.
Nair - Energy/Electric
Typically Energy attacks are seen on things like Fox Blaster.
Fair - Magic/Darkness
Magical!
Bair - Hand/Normal
Did they realise that there are tail stickers?
Uair - Hand/Normal
Apparently not.
Dair - Hand/Normal
... no comment.
Pummel - Energy/Electric
<insert witty comment here>
Shadow Ball - Typeless/Darkness
This attack is only boosted by Darkness stickers since Typeless ones don't exist.
Disable (vs. Grounded) - Foot/Stun
Don't use this vs. Subspace Emissary enemies plz
Disable (vs. Aerial) - Foot/Normal
Don't use this either.

Section 4 / Credits [CRDT]

Image creator

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Attacks | Shield Damage | Unable to Clank? | SDI Multiplier | Hitlag Multiplier | Trajectory | BKB | KBG | Knocks Forward? Jab 1* | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 83 | 35 | 100 | -
Jab 2* | - | Y/N/N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 60/40/30 | 30/65/74 | 100 | -
Dash Attack (Strong Hit) | 1 | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 80/80/110 | 80 | 60 | -
Dash Attack (Late Hit) | 1 | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 80/80/110 | 40 | 60 | -
Ftilt | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 361 | 10/10/20 | 100 | -
Utilt (Frame 6) | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 110/96/96/80 | 0/70/70/70 | 115/114/114/100 | -
Utilt (Frame 7-13) | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 78 | 60/60/50/40 | 114/130/130/130 | -
Dtilt | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 80/80/90 | 40 | 80 | -
Fsmash | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 361 | 30 | 80 | -
Usmash (Hit 1)* | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 112 | 72 | 100 | -
Usmash (Hits 2-7)* | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 95/170/170/95 | 40/18/18/8 | 100 | -
Usmash (Hit 8) | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 90/80/80/90 | 40 | 118 | -
Dsmash (Strong Hit) | - | Y | 1.0x | 1.0x | 361 | 30/20 | 103 | -
Dsmash (Late Hit) | - | Y | 1.0x | 1.0x | 361 | 20 | 103 | -
Nair (Hits 1-8)* | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 160/160/110/110 | 20 | 100 | -
Nair (Hit 9) | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 361 | 70 | 80 | -
Fair | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 84 | 40 | 10 | -
Bair | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 361 | 20 | 100 | -
Uair (Frame 7) | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 55 | 0 | 100 | -
Uair (Frame 8-9) | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 55 | 0 | 100 | -
Uair (Frame 10-12) | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 65 | 0 | 100 | -
Dair | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 270 | 20 | 100 | -
Pummel* | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 361 | 40 | 100 | Y
Shadow Ball (Charge) | - | Y | 1.0x | 1.0x | 80 | 10 | 100 | -
Shadow Ball (Shot) | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | Varies | Varies | Varies | Y
Disable (Grounded Hit)* | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 361 | 64 | 100 | -
Disable (Aerial Hit) | - | N | 1.0x | 1.0x | 30 | 50 | 80 | -

Anything with an *asterisk* is FIXED knockback
​

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Reserving this post as well.

[Change Log]

3/3/2014 - Completed all ground moves, and items moves.
5/3/2014 - Completed everything else except Aerial Autocancel frames.
15/3/2014 - Guide complete. Move attributes added, everything fleshed out.

The first post will be updated probably every day until it's completed. There's a couple of things I am not certain of, but other than that ground moves and item moves are 99% correct (unless I read something wrong or mistyped).

Feel free to discuss, complain, suggest, whatever.

 

[210stuna]

Thank you.

Mewtwo is the best.

 

[Hughie]

Cool Aero is cool
The frame data is nice

 

[KuroganeHammer]

k. Everything except autocancel frames is done.

I'll do these another day since ugh cbf

 

[Gamegenie222]

Thank you for this now if this can be the frame data layout staple for every character it would be awesome cause frame data in smash isn't importantly focused like in other FG's.

 

[MonkUnit]

D-Air's landing lag is actually 18 non-L canceled and 9 L-canceled, not 20/10.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

D-Air's landing lag is actually 18 non-L canceled and 9 L-canceled, not 20/10.

Thanks for picking up on that, I'll push that through when I've got FA running again (hopefully tonight!) :D

Edit: *turns on wii* or now

Edit 2: also TIL there's two different aerial throws, smash and normal. I guess I should add these.

 

[MonkUnit]

I'm planning on making a hitbox thread w/ images after I eventually do Samus' and make a guide on how to do a hitbox/frame data thread.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm planning on making a hitbox thread w/ images after I eventually do Samus' and make a guide on how to do a hitbox/frame data thread.

For Mewtwo? Coolios. Frame data guide is also cool (not that I need it; I read most of my own data from OpenSA2. Also Frame Advance)

Though at this point in time I don't think people are interested in making frame data threads themselves. I've come late to this party (like I did with the Smash Lab party... and BBR party...) so it seems like I'm just going to fill in the gaps that no one else bothered to do. Also update other peoples threads and then yell at them to maintain them.

idk, Project M has gotten me really excited about Smash again.

Wait why am I posting about this here

mewtwo ftilt

 

[MonkUnit]

Don't forget to consider any Frame Speed Modifiers a move may have. In order to get correct hitbox windows and stuff on moves with FSMs, I just use a color overlay in PSA that starts when the FSM is activated and ends when the FSM is over.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ajajajaja, I test pretty much every move in Frame Advance anyway which gives me the most accurate results (because in game obvs)

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ KuroganeHammer , care to test this for me? If you hover downward ASAP out of a jump (so basically holding jump+down until he lands again), what's frame does he land on? It probably changes depending on if you do an aerial out of the hover, so I'd be curious to know the details for doing the same thing with those. I do know that those are the only two that have a hitbox come out if you don't delay the landing from the hover in that situation, and maybe bair too I'm not sure.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

FAF = 26

It includes jump squat (5 frames) + landing lag (5 frames) and you have to be airborne for 2 frames before hover activates.

Bair comes out during this short hover duration, the only aerial that doesn't is dair

Edit: so 5 frames jump squat, 2 frames for hover, 8-20 (12 frames) is air time, 5 frames after that then you can shield/jab/whatever

 

[DrinkingFood]

12 frames air time? That doesn't really seem right. Did you hover downward into the ground or did you simply release the hover as soon as it started? I think it's faster if you hover downward and land straight out of the hover. So the input would be hold jump+down (the whole time) while pressing forward/upward/backward(?) on the control stick once the hover starts, then release jump+down once he has hovered down into the ground. I would try to get a video of exactly what I'm doing but my comp barely runs dolphin at 60 fps, adding in OBS slows it down too much

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I hovered into the ground. Admittingly I released down for a frame to up-air/back-air/foward-air, but that wouldn't have much of a difference frame wise I'd imagine, since I was holding the jump button the whole time.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

guuurrrrls I am doing auto cancel frames and I am trippin' out yo

data says that bair has auto cancel frames on frame 1 only, which is really lol if that's true because realistically on flat ground you can only have bair out for 3 frames minimum before you hit the ground because of how the move works

idk what to do here

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

Excellent post. For hover cancel's the endlag is just 5 frames (the empty landing lag) right? Can anyone confirm any safe pressure strings off of a hover cancelled aerial a la peach? (It doesn't seem like he has any due to the long startup of his moves and the relatively low shield stun on aerials) Or at least can you WD back/roll back after a HC aerial on shield (obviously you can safely do bair)?

Suggestions: Can you add advantage on block for aerials, and the difference in FAF from teleporting air to air and air to ground? Also any info on FC aerials vs DJC aerials in terms of when the hitbox comes out so I can determine when is best to use each would be appreciated (would be in your techniques section i guess?). Thanks.

EDIT: Also is there any reason ever to do ground teleport offensively/movement wise? The only situation I can think of is defensive: if you need to avoid attack immediately since grounded would disappear first.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Excellent post. For hover cancel's the endlag is just 5 frames (the empty landing lag) right? Can anyone confirm any safe pressure strings off of a hover cancelled aerial a la peach? (It doesn't seem like he has any due to the long startup of his moves and the relatively low shield stun on aerials) Or at least can you WD back/roll back after a HC aerial on shield (obviously you can safely do bair)?

Suggestions: Can you add advantage on block for aerials, and the difference in FAF from teleporting air to air and air to ground? Also any info on FC aerials vs DJC aerials in terms of when the hitbox comes out so I can determine when is best to use each would be appreciated (would be in your techniques section i guess?). Thanks.

Hover ending is 5 frames when you land.

Shieldstun is directly related to damage done so M2's moves aren't really terrible ('cept nair)

This will sound noobish but what's a hover cancelled aerial, FC aerial and DJC aerial-- what do they do and how do I perform them?

Advantages on block for aerials is hard because there are so many variables; I didn't even do them for Brawl and that game had significantly less options when you hit a shield.

Teleport grounded and air to air is in the OP under specials.

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

Shieldstun is directly related to damage done so M2's moves aren't really terrible ('cept nair)

Yeah I said that wrong But I still don't think it works since he doesn't have any 2-4 frame moves

This will sound noobish but what's a hover cancelled aerial, FC aerial and DJC aerial-- what do they do and how do I perform them?

Float Cancelled aerial is a tech unique to peach in melee/PM (its in brawl I guess but its irrelevant). If you start an aerial while floating, cancel the float and land, your landing lag will be as if you empty jumped (~4 frames) as opposed to the aerials normal landing lag. So its way better than lcancelling and cuts her landing lag in half compared to l cancelled moves. This is essentially why peach is viable in melee.

HC aerial is along the same lines as FC only its with hover. Afaik, it works in the same way as FC'ing and should reduce all aerial landing lag to 5 frames (M2's empty jump landing lag).

Double-jump cancelled aerials are in every smash game but brawl and they are unique to certain characters. Ness is most known for them but in PM, Ness, Lucas, M2, Peach, Yoshi and maybe others have them (basically all the characters with slow ass second jumps). Its used to get aerials out quickly/land quickly/move forward (tbh I'm not entirely sure of all the benefits but it basically gives some characters a SHFFL game). Its performed by cancelling your second jump with an attack. In PM, if you hold the jump button and attack you will not DJC, you will rise with that aerial (with ness/lucas not sure about M2) so you can only tap the jump button if you want a DJC. (Peach is pretty irrelevant to mention lol since float is way better, but its useful for dash>DJC>utilt with her).

Heres some links about it:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Double_jump_cancel
Taj uses it a lot but it can be hard to tell the difference between DJC and HC but there should always be a sound cue for HC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJIQJTieVis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iKt8POLtuw (he uses it here at :50 while facing away from ally)

Advantages on block for aerials is hard because there are so many variables; I didn't even do them for Brawl and that game had significantly less options when you hit a shield.

Gotcha, how about testing if its safe on shield or is that the same problem? I'd think you could have a second "player" just spam grab or usmash OoS and see if M2 can land/do another aerial/WD back etc.

Teleport grounded and air to air is in the OP under specials.

Sorry, should have been more clear. Yes air to air is in the post and so is ground to air but air to ground is not. In my experience teleporting TO the ground seems to have a lot of endlag compared to air to air. (It could be that teleporting to the ground has as much endlag as teleporting from the ground but it would be nice to know)


EDIT: I'm not actually sure if you get a sound cue from HC'ing if you do it fast enough.

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

Here's a better explanation of doing HC fast. And a better video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j1ge_drts2Y

I usually claw while I hover to give me full control over both movement and attack directions.

1) Press & hold jump with right pointer finger
2) Press down on the joystick with your left thumb (let go if you want to continue hovering, hold down if you want to hover cancel an aerial - you can also do down-forward or down-back)
3) Input aerial attack with your right thumb on c-stick
4) If you've held down from #2, you'll land during the aerial with very low lag

If you did a rising FH aerial then you input the aerial attack before pressing down. Make sure you're inputting in the right order and play with the timing until you're getting the fastest possible hover cancel.

Shield pressure is the most common use, but it's also good for edgeguarding with Bair and sometimes Dair / Uair. Short hop teleport hover aerial attack can also be a flashy situational approach tool.

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

Oo aparently someone's already done the HC aerial sheild frame advantage testing. Idk how accurate it is.

To avoid leading anyone astray I checked these again and they were slightly better than I had recalled.

Full list of disadvantages (-) or advantages (+) vs shield for Hover Canceled Aerial Attacks...

Nair -2
Fair +4
Bair +3 inside, +2 outside
Uair +2 inside, +4 outside
Dair +2 inside, +5 outside

Overall they're pretty comparable to Peach's but sweetspot Dair is the best in the game at +5.

----

EDIT: for comparison, here are Peach's values

Nair +4
Fair +4
Bair +4
Uair +4 to +2
Dair -1

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'll verify all this later today when I boot up Frame Advance. Thanks for all the info!

I'll also put in all of his hitbox properties since I forgot to do them last night.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

Air to ground teleport is 47 FAF. The reason for this is the game switches offsets to the grounded version onces it recognizes it's hit land.

Hover cancelling in my eyes is 100% superior to double jump cancelling since it reduces all landing lag to 5. There is ALWAYS a sound cue. You can't hover cancel without the sound cue.

Double jump cancelling seems like a waste because it uses your double jump. There are probably situations where it's good to use it in mid air, but unless you're abusing auto cancel frames with it.... I don't see why you wouldn't just hover cancel instead. (so basically the same situation as Peach)

I DUNNO IM NOT ADVANCED AT THE METAGAME yet but i don't really see the non-situational benefits of DJC'd aerials.

The HC advantages above seem correct (I only tested fair which was +4 like that dude said. I don't see why the others would be doubted since they seem to match up mostly with my data.

Still won't do aerial advantage data because if I do it one way via auto cancels, someone will ask for it to be done via FAF, and then another person will be like "oh but what about L-Cancelling!" and this basically quadriples my work load. plz understand.

Ground teleport is garbage

Edit: Breakthrough, I found shadow ball's hitboxes and angles and knockbacks but i can't figure out where it goes

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ KuroganeHammer , in terms of speed, hover canceling is almost always preferable; however, hovering does not provide an instantaneous boost of sideways momentum like a DJ does. If you're already traveling in the direction you need to go from your first jump or already drifting in that direction, then the difference in movement between the two is probably nonexistent, but if you should suddenly need to shift directions after your jump and do a low to the ground aerial, a DJ cancel will do both of those, while a hover cancel will not shift your momentum as quickly. So if for any reason you are barely out of reach, and a DJ cancel will PUT you in reach, that is the only situation in which DJ canceling is more advantageous. Even then, given the additional lag, probably the only aerials this will be valuable with is fair/possibly dair and uair, since the others are way to slow for DJCing into an l-cancel to be valuable.
So yeah I guess basically it is situational. But you said in that last post that DJCing wastes your jump, but HCing does the same thing so...
Also HC dair is the most advantageous aerial on block in the game at its sweetspot

 

[KuroganeHammer]

hover cancelling doesn't waste your jump

You can hover a few frames and then jump again~

Hover cancelling I think would retain your second jump if you got hit while performing a HC aerial.

 

[DrinkingFood]

oh, huh. I mean I knew you could hover a bit and keep your jump if you stopped the hover almost right away
but I guess I figured that would be void if you did something like an aerial out of the hover or got hit

 

[Sempai]

So, mewtwos jab is slower then his grab, all his tilts, and even his upsmash?

Sheesh, I thought it was a pretty decent jab.

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

@ KuroganeHammer , great thanks, you're awesome. DJC seems to be only good for aerial pursuits/combos/cancelling hover and its definitely inferior to HC in terms of pressure/OoS options.

@ RedEyesWhiteSwaggin
Ground teleport is garbage

I'm thinking so except in the situation after an uthrow. If you SH teleport then you lose your DJ but if you ground teleport you get your DJ and another telport for combos lol. I'm going to test if you can SH>hover cancel>teleport faster but it seems like ground teleport is going to be the fastest/best pursuit option.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

if you teleport into the air you can't teleport again, but ground to air treats it as an aerial teleport so yes it's probably the best for chasing.

Also if you short hop > teleport you shouldn't lose your second jump unless you fall off a ledge.

So, mewtwos jab is slower then his grab, all his tilts, and even his upsmash?

Sheesh, I thought it was a pretty decent jab.

It's ok. It deals decent damage and has a decent hitbox and is VERY safe on shield.

 

[Vale]

How long does it take to put up shield after stopping a Shadow Ball charge by holding R?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I would guess immediately

I'll check when I get home

work johns

**** THIS FORUM SOFTWARE

 

[Vale]

I thought so too, but then I realized I was getting hit by moves after pressing R. At first I thought it was just wifi, but I was keeping my charge, so I think there has to be a delay between the two.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I know Lucario has a delay, it's like 8 frames or something like that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

olololol

anyway @ Vale shield comes up on frame 9, so yes there is a delay

 

[DrinkingFood]

So this has like no hover data

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So this has like no hover data

what data are you looking for

 

[DrinkingFood]

Particularly how long he can hover, and how long he has to stop his hover early and still keep his DJ
But for less informed players, adding stuff like how laggy an HC aerial is and how long it takes to start hover could be helpful

 

[KuroganeHammer]

HC Aerials are 5 frames

Hover is about 61-ish frames (I'll check later)

but yeah, I'll check this for you.