Mewtwo and the Ledge

MookieRah

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#1
So I've decided to main M2 again, and have been messing around with a lot of stuff (mostly teleport tricks that I never learned) and I am thinking that there is no reason for M2 to not be the king of the ledge.

I was wanting this to be a place where we could all discuss Mewtwo's options from the ledge, and try to brainstorm new options for him, and to weight the pros and cons of these options.

Since I am unable to look this stuff up, I was wondering if anyone has the frame data on Mewtwo's getting up from ledge animation (total length and amount of frames invulnerable) as well as his >100% get up attack. Mewtwo's ledge getup seems similar to Marth's, which only has two frames of vulnerability in it's animation which is why I'd like to know the data for M2. His getup attack seems to have some nice invulnerability before the hit, so it's worth looking into as well. Since Mewtwo can easily transition to the ledge by teleporting the moment he leaves the ground, he should be able to abuse his invincibility to possibly re-establish a neutral position against his opponent; however, how viable this all hinges on how little frames he is actually vulnerable.

I was also wondering what were all the known teleport options from the ledge are. I know a few things, like teleporting onto the lower platforms or the floor(with very little to no lag) as well as edge cancelling on the lower platforms horizontally (check the Taj vs Armada vids to know what I'm talking about specifically).

The more options M2 has from the ledge, the easier it would be for him to destroy his opponent's momentum by going to the ledge. It makes the ledge a safe option if M2 is lacking stage-control, and makes it very frustrating to his opponents, whom likely won't know what to do against it due to his rarity.
 

MookieRah

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#3
Thanks for that quick reply! I figure this info was available somewhere, but I had no idea where.
Ledge stand <100%

Total: 33
Invincible: 1-30
So M2 has only 3 frames of vulnerability here. Not bad at all. It's almost identical to Marth's, except it has one more frame of lag and vulnerability on it. IMO, I think it's fairly safe to use. I did some looking and M2's fastest attacks are dtilt and ftilt, and teleport, which all hit on frame 7 (or teleport in teleport's case). Seeing that teleport would activate as fast as an attack, I'm going to experiment with angles to see where M2 can position himself on all the legal stages from this getup.

Ledge attack <100%

Total: 55
Invulnerable: 1-22
Hit: 26-30
M2 has 4 frames of vulnerability here, but that's still not bad because the attack comes out immediately after those 4 frames (much faster than performing an attack from the normal ledge stand). I wish I had hitbox images for this, but I'm going to test to see it's limits as much as one can to see how effective it can be. I'd also like to know the trajectory it sends out opponents as well.

I have another frames question, and I looked for this and couldn't find it. How fast does the shield come out? Even M2K's list doesn't have this data. Does it come out in one frame? I thought I read somewhere that it was actually a couple of frames or so. In any case, I'd like to know this to know how long one can go from the ledge standup to shield.
 
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Kadano

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#4
M2 has 4 frames of vulnerability here, but that's still not bad because the attack comes out immediately after those 4 frames (much faster than performing an attack from the normal ledge stand). I wish I had hitbox images for this
Do you have a desktop or laptop PC? If so, you can look at the hitbubbles or save them as images / animations by yourself with little effort. Here is a link with everything you need (except Windows and Microsoft Excel or a similar program that supports .xlsx): https://www.mediafire.com/folder/pioqzqrcncvb5/Melee_Dolphin_Pack
Some files are a bit old, especially the Dolphin version, but they do the job.

If you don’t have the time / hardware / interest to do it yourself, just tell me. My .gif creation process is fairly stamped out, so I could do this within 5 minutes at most. Still, I thought you might be someone who prefers being given the tools than the end product.

I'd also like to know the trajectory it sends out opponents as well.
The hitbox collection (by Toomai) within the linked folder has the base trajectories of all hitbubbles in Melee, as well as all other properties (BKB, KBG, size etc.).

I have another frames question, and I looked for this and couldn't find it. How fast does the shield come out? Even M2K's list doesn't have this data. Does it come out in one frame? I thought I read somewhere that it was actually a couple of frames or so. In any case, I'd like to know this to know how long one can go from the ledge standup to shield.
Shield is immediate, so 0-1 frames depending on whether you prefer [00][11] or [01][12] frame denotation for input and output. More information about shield frames for all characters except Yoshi: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Powershield#Chronological_frame_data
 
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MookieRah

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#5
Do you have a desktop or laptop PC? If so, you can look at the hitbubbles or save them as images / animations by yourself with little effort. Here is a link with everything you need (except Windows and Microsoft Excel or a similar program that supports .xlsx): http://www.ssbwiki.com/Powershield#Chronological_frame_data
Some files are a bit old, especially the Dolphin version, but they do the job.
The first and last link you listed are the same link. I don't think that was your intention, as I don't see any link from that wiki for the thing you mentioned. In any case, whatever program that is, it would be very helpful. I don't have a lot of time, but a lot of this stuff I would look up myself as I don't want to burden others for it.
 

Kadano

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#6
The first and last link you listed are the same link. I don't think that was your intention, as I don't see any link from that wiki for the thing you mentioned. In any case, whatever program that is, it would be very helpful. I don't have a lot of time, but a lot of this stuff I would look up myself as I don't want to burden others for it.
Oops, it seems Mediafire didn’t put the link in my clipboard like it told me it did. It’s fixed now.
 
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MookieRah

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#8
So the viable options that I have seen and worked on are:

Basic Options > 100%
Ledge Attack : Quite good, has good range and speed. Quickest method to attack an opponent and end on the stage.
Ledge Getup: Fastest way to get up from the ledge. Almost as good as Marth's getup, but M2 has a lot more tricks.
Ledge Roll: I don't really use this outside of edge-hogging. I'd like to see a compare/contrast gif with this versus a horizontal teleport.

Non-Basic options
Drop to uair (will hit opponent that is standing very close to the ledge)
Drop off teleport at around 45 degrees onto a mid platform (or above the stage on FD)
DJC disable (down B).
DJC teleport cancel (if done right can even negate landing lag, but that is extremely hard to do consistently)
DJC teleport to instant ledge grab (any downward angle will cause M2 to grab the ledge immediately)

Does anyone know of any other viable options, or perhaps something tricky that is worth noting regarding an existing option?

I for one would like to know the exact height at which M2 can teleport at a downward angle in order to grab the ledge. From my standard training mode testing, it seems as if once M2's retinas pass the ledge you can teleport down and he will grab the ledge instantly (after the teleport of course).
 

MookieRah

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#10
I'm not sure if you are referring to teleporting horizontally from the ledge so that you land with the teleport so there is no lag (or virtually lagless), referring to teleporting onto a middle platform from the ledge and landing virtually lagless, or if you are referring to something entirely different. Could you clarify for me, cause at this point I'd be excited if it's a tech I'm not aware of.
 

MookieRah

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#12
Damn, looks awesome but judging by the thread it might not be possible to get a decent enough consistency to do this in matches. I hope I'm wrong about that, and will try to test stuff with it.
 

MookieRah

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#14
Mewtwo can't really do anything from the ledge like what you are suggesting. Kadano posted this a while back and it goes over lots of different possibilities. As you can see, Mewtwo just doesn't have anything. I asked a question regarding Mewtwo's ECB manipulation and Kadano responded on that as well:
Grounded actionable intangibility from the ledge (gaInt)
╔════════════════╤═╤══╤══╤══╤══╗
║Character ......│E│OL│PL│LL│AI║
╟────────────────┼─┼──┼──┼──┼──╢
║Zelda ..........│N│ 2│..│..│..║

║Sheik ..........│Y│1112│..│..║
║Popo ...........│N│13│..│..│..║
║Nana ...........│N│13│..│..│..║
║Captain Falcon .│Y│10111715
║Young Link .....│N│12│..│..│..║
║Donkey Kong ....│N│ 7│..│..│..║
║Doctor Mario ...│Y│14│..│..│..║
║Falco ..........│Y│1415│..│..║
║Fox ............│Y│1516│..│..║
║Kirby ..........│N│12│..│..│..║
║Bowser .........│N│ 8│..│..│..║
║Link ...........│Y│ 912│..│..║
║Luigi ..........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Mario ..........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Marth ..........│N│ 4│..│ 1│..║
║Mewtwo .........│N│ 1│..│..│..║

║Ness ...........│N│ 4│..│..│..║
║Peach ..........│N│..│..│..│..║
║Pichu ..........│Y│1516│..│..║

║Pikachu ........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Jigglypuff .....│N│ 9│..│..│..║
║Samus ..........│N│ 4│..│..│11
║Yoshi ..........│N│ 2│..│..│ 8
║Mr. Game&Watch .│N│ 9│..│ 6│..║

║Ganondorf ......│.│ 4918│..║
║Roy ............│N│ 5│..│..│..║
╟────────────────┼─┼──┼──┼──┼──╢
║Giga Bowser ....│.│..│..│..│..║
║Master Hand ....│.│..│..│..│..║
║Crazy Hand .....│.│..│..│..│..║
║Male Wireframe .│Y│ 89│..│..║

║Female Wireframe│N│ 5│..│..│..║
║Sandbag ........│.│..│..│..│..║
╚════════════════╧═╧═══════════╝

E = ECB manipulation-abuse possible Yes/No (applied for OL only if the execution is managable/realistic; always applied for PL if it increases gaInt)
OL = Optimal ledgedash (hard to do frame-perfect, but possible)
PL = Perfect ledgedash (TAS-realm – requires a weird setup and/or tricky timing)
LL = Lagless landing aka no-impact landing (requires a very specific setup usually)
AI = Aerial Interrupt

These values are for FD. Other stages, especially YS and FoD, probably have slightly different values.

This chart is not perfectly accurate. I’m sure there are a few aerial interrupts and lagless landing options that I didn’t find. The ledgedash data itself should be correct, though.
Yes, in a way, but the main problem is Marth‘s (and Mewtwo’s) slow aerial jump vertical acceleration. I wrote more about this here.
If Mewtwo has more ledge options that are yet to be discovered then my guess is that they will be teleport related. In the meantime, if you haven't started working on it I suggest practicing edge-canceled teleports. Taj performs some of these in the latest vids I posted against the Sheik in the first match. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1dv_GjzcsQ#t=54 watch that) It's not overly difficult to do, but it's quite difficult to do them consistently. It's a trick that will take a long time of consistent practice to be able to rely on it, or at least it seems that way for me.

I think there are actually tons of potential applications for edge canceled teleports outside of performing them from the ledge, as you can do this on any platform. It would be great for extending combos as you can cover lots of ground with a teleports amazingly fast that way. It's also consistent, in that it's a timing issue, and it doesn't require difficult angled teleports.
 
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Super4ng

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#22
It was sort of mentioned before, but I'll restate it. You can air dodge into the ledge and because Mewtwo falls slowly he'll grab the ledge instead of fall past it like most characters.

Also, I'm sure most people know you can use confusion from the ledge and it can trap people under the stage on battlefield and I think PS.

Another thing I like to do is I'll drop from the ledge, shadow ball cancel to face away and do a rising bair back to stage.
 
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Zhyrri

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#23
I discovered that you can actually auto cancel Mewtwo's nair on the ledge. It you time it right, you can be fully invincible and start a roll, spot dodge, shield, grab, or tilt.
 
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