Metaknight's frame data - ledge options added

hotgarbage

Smash Lord
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Index:
-Tilts
-Smashes
-Aerials
-Grabs
-Specials
-Defense
-Ledge options
-Miscellaneous


Key: (because these definitions aren't exactly set in stone)
IASA- "Interruptible as soon as". The first frame a move can be interrupted by another action.

cooldown- the frames after a move's hitbox has disappeared. The character can perform no actions until the move ends.

hitlag- the "freeze frames" the attacker experiences after an attack connects with a hitable object; be it a character, shield, or stage object.

shield hitlag- the "freeze frames" a shielding defender experiences after an attack hit their shield. Can be different than the attacker's hitlag.

shield hitlag differential - the frame difference of the attacker's hitlag and the defender's shield hitlag. A negative number means that your opponent exits shield hitlag before you exit hitlag, while a positive number means the opposite. This number effects shield advantage.

shield stun- the frames after shield hitlag . The attacker's attack animation continues while the defender is stuck in their shield.

shield advantage- the frame difference between the attacker's and defender's ability to perform another action after an attack has hit the defender's shield. The attacker can do anything, while the defender can do one of three things: grab, jump, or drop their shield. This is in the attacker's point of view, so a negative advantage means that the defender can perform and action first while a positive advantage means that the attacker can perform an action first.

shield drop advantage- The attacker's advantage after an opponent has dropped their shield. (advantage + 7). I included this because this will usually be your opponent's best shot at punishing you if you space well.

optimal shield advantage- advantage for aerials that are being used on shield and landed afterwards. This shows the maximum possible advantage; as such it's not a realistic number, but shows what is possible. (this definition sucks xP, I'll patch it up later)


TILTS
NEUTRAL A
frame breakdown:
1-6 startup
7 hitbox out
8-10
11 hitbox out
12-14
15 hitbox out behind
16-19
20 hitbox out
21-23
24 hitbox out beind
25-28
29 hitbox out
30 hitbox out
31-40 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on: 7
Hits behind on: 15
Soonest IASA frame: 41
Cooldown: 10
Shield stun: 0
Shield advantage after 2nd hit: -8
Shield advantage after 3rd hit: -8

Hit advantage after 2nd hit: -3
Hit advantage after 3rd hit: -2
Hit advantage after 1st hit behind: -3


DTILT
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4


FTILT
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
Soonest IASA frame: 41
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits

1st attack shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -12

2nd and 3rd attacks shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23


UTILT
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-18 hitbox out
19-35 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 36
cooldown: 17
shield hitlag differential: 0
shield stun: 2
shield advantage: -25
shield drop advantage: -18


DASH ATTACK
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-11 hitbox out
12-31 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 5
IASA frame: 32
Cooldown: 20



SMASHES

FSMASH
frame breakdown:
1-23 startup
24-25 hitbox out
26-41 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame 24
IASA frame: 42
Cooldown: 17
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 5
Shield advantage: -12
Shield drop advantage: -5


DSMASH
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame 5 front and frame 10 back
IASA frame: 35
Cooldown front: 28
Cooldown back: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun front: 4
Shield stun back: 4
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13


USMASH
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-11
12-13 hitbox out
14-16
17-18 hitbox out
19-49 cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 8
2nd hit on: 12
3rd hit on: 17
IASA frame: 50
Shield hitlag differential: 0
All hits shield stun: 1
Cooldown: 31
Sheild advantage: -31
Shield drop advantage: -24



AERIALS
NAIR
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 strong hitbox out
5-25 weak hitbox out
26-31 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 32
Aerial cooldown: 6
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 25
Shield hitlag differential strong hit: 0
Shield hitlag differential weak hit: -1
Shield stun strong hit: 4
Shield stun weak hit: 1
Optimal shield advantage strong hit: -11
Optimal shield drop advantage strong hit: -4
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -15
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -8
*Optimal shield advantage weak hit autocanceled: -2
*Optimal shield shield drop advantage weak hit autocanceled: +5

* Note that doing this is unrealistic because of how the nair works. It would be very difficult to hit a shield with the weak hitbox and then immediately land into the ac point. You would most all the time be hitting the top area of the shield and then falling until you land.


FAIR
frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 6
2nd hit on: 10
3rd hit on: 13
IASA frame: 40
Aerial cooldown: 25
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 22
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -9
Optimal shield drop advantage: -2


BAIR
frame breakdown:
1-6 startup
7-8 hitbox out
9-12
13-14 hitbox out
15-19
20-21 hitbox out
22-45 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 7
2nd hit on: 13
3rd hit on: 20
IASA frame: 46
Aerial cooldown: 24
Landing lag: 12
Autocancel on: 33
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6


DAIR
frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Shield advantage without landing: -18
Shield drop advantage without landing: -11


UAIR
frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -10
Optimal shield drop advantage: -3



GRABS
GRAB
frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 grab hitbox out
8-29 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 6
IASA frame: 30
Cooldown: 22


DASH GRAB
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-39 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 40
Cooldown: 30


PIVOT GRAB
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-34 cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 35
cooldown: 24



SPECIALS
MACH TORNADO
minimum time frame breakdown:
1-11 startup
12-58 hitbox out
59-87 cooldown (this is a grounded nado)

maximum time frame breakdown
1-11 startup
12-104 hitbox out

Cooldown: this is interesting. Cooldown will ALWAYS be 29 frames. Landing lag adjusts to this. So if your nado ends in midair and you free fall for 10 frames your landing lag will be 19 frames. The botched up landing is 30 frames.


GROUNDED SHUTTLE LOOP
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32


AERIAL SHUTTLE LOOP
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-14 strong hitbox out
15-36 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38


DIMENSIONAL CAPE
frame breakdown:
1-17
18-26 invincibility frames
27-54 cooldown

frame summary:
cooldown: 27
total invincibility frames:9

notes:
- despite MK turning invisible on frame 13, he does not receive invincibility frames until frame 18
- MK can move around starting on frame 14



DEFENSE
meta Knight:
Spot Dodge Lasts 25 Frames
Invincible Frames 2 – 20

Roll Backward Lasts 33 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 12

Roll Forward Lasts 23 Frames
Invincible Frames 5 – 12

Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28


LEDGE OPTIONS
General
Ledge invincibility: 1-46
Minimum Time on Ledge: 25 frames
Maximum invincibility after ledge drop: 21

Notes:
- ledge let-go cannot be buffered
- ledge let-go invincibility doesn't stack with action invincibility

Less than 100%
Attack
Duration: 55
Hits on frame: 25
Hitbox Duration: 25-28
Cooldown: 27
Invincibility: 1-23
Vulnerable Frames: 32
Shield advantage: -28

Get Up
Duration: 34
Invincibility:1-30
Vulnerable Frames: 4

Jump
Duration: 16
Invincibility: 1-15
Vulnerable Frames: 1

Roll
Duration: 49
Invincibility: 1-31
Vulnerable frames: 18

100% and Greater
Attack
Duration: 69
Hits on frame: 39
Hitbox duration: 39-42
Cooldown: 27
Invincibility: 1-42
Vulnerable frames: 27
Shield advantage: -27

Get Up
Duration: 59
Invincibility: 1-55
Vulnerable frames: 4

Jump
Duration: 19
Invincibility: 1-19
Vulnerable frames: 0

Roll
Duration: 79
Invincibility: 1-62
Vulnerable frames: 17



MISCELLANEOUS
GLIDE ATTACK
hits on frame: 5
landing lag: standard landing lag; either 2 or 4 frames
shield hitlag differential: -2
shield stun: 3
optimal shield advantage: -3 hard landing | -1 soft landing
optimal shield drop advantage: +4 hard landing | +6 soft landing

SHORT HOP
1-4 jump startup
5-39 airborne
40-41 landing lag

Duration: 41
Air time: 35
Landing lag: 2

SHFF
1-4 jump startup
5-30 airborne
31-34 landing lag

Duration: 34
Air time: 26
Landing lag: 4

FH
1-4 jump startup
5-57 airborne
58-61 landing lag

Duration: 61
Air time: 53
Landing lag: 4

FHFF
1-4 jump startup
5-46 airborne
47-50 landing lag

Duration: 50
Air time: 42
Landing lag: 4


MINIMUM SHIELD TIME
14 frames (can perform an action on frame 15)

DASH ENDING LAG
18 frames (can perform an action on frame 19)



CREDITS:
- Tenki for requesting this info in the first place. If he didn't I probably wouldn't have bothered doing this :laugh:
- Shaya for correcting me on MK's ftilt data
 

Tenki

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I've actually had a bunch of hotgarbage's frame data for a while now. I was collecting it elsewhere though. In some of my social groups, I've been posting this:
Okay guys. If any of you have ever played the SBR Weekly Character Discussion game, I made a simplified mini version. Except the prize isn't figuring out what the next WCD is, it's... something else.

Since the actual hint / puzzle is easier if you have any experience with it, not only is the hint going to be ambiguous, but the prize is as well.

You'll know you've found the prize if you look somewhere really dark and suspicious.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5821932 <-- hint!


You guys should play.

It's pretty fun :3
At the end, you'd find a pretty dark and suspicious wall of black. And if you select it, you find the frame data :laugh:

MACH TORNADO

minimum time frame breakdown:
1-11 startup
12-58 hitbox out
59-87 cooldown (this is a grounded nado)

maximum time frame breakdown
1-11 startup
12-104 hitbox out

cooldown: this is interesting. Cooldown will ALWAYS be 29 frames. Landing lag adjusts to this. So if your nado ends in midair and you free fall for 10 frames your landing lag will be 19 frames. The botched up landing is 30 frames.



SHORT HOP
1-4 jump startup
5-36 airtime
37-38 landing lag

duration: 38 frames
air time: 32 frames
landing lag: 2 frames



SHFF
1-4 jump startup
5-30 airtime
31-34 landing lag

duration: 34 frames
air time: 26 frames
landing lag: 4 frames
:bee:
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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btw thats a broke *** dtilt.
Kind of but not really.

11 frames between the attack and its IASA is just like landing lag, if he misses. Some characters can punish the 4 frames using a shield drop and buffered attack.

If you do a sliding shield into the D-tilt, it'll screw up the spacing and some characters can get a grab out of that. :dizzy:
 

K 2

Smash Lord
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You opponent would have to have superhuman reflexes to punish most of your moves. The Oos advantage is -4 for many moves, which is 1/15 of a second to react and punish. Considering most tilts come out in around 5-8 frames, MK can easily get the heck out of there before he is punished...
 

hotgarbage

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^ The time for your opponent to react will be longer than that when you include shield hit stun (where both players are "frozen" when an attack hits a shield). .....I need to go back and get that info *adds to to-do list* :urg:
 

Tenki

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how accurate is this, and does it match m2ks data collection?
It's more accurate than any previous frame data, since it's actually recorded in 60FPS at 1x speed. jcav's data was recorded at 30FPS and 1/2 speed, I believe.

comparisons (note, he was replying to multiple posts or something, and this quote doesn't show them):

I've messed with this, and for the most part it is accurate. Startup times in particular seem to be correct when doing this. But the fact is that the video is still interlaced at 30fps, which is going to cause problems such as this:




Looking at this frame by frame you can tell that his dtilt comes out on frame 3 and that his shield comes up on frame 17.... meaning that his dtilt lasts 16 frames.


But take a closer look at frame 16:


On frame 16 he is in the middle of his attack AND in neutral position! So which is it??? This is why to get accurate data you really need to bob deinterlace to get 60fps progressive. In addition, I found that training mode was inconsistent... often times giving different results for the same move. I'm not sure why that was happening.... perhaps the 1/2 speed feature isn't exactly frame perfect 1/2 speed? Knowing the developers that really wouldn't surprise me :dizzy:.


Oh, and for comparison here is mk's dtilt in 60fps progressive: (lol IASA frames)



<3





Oh yeah, I never answered this :p. I'll try and make this brief as possible.

Interlaced video runs at 30 frames per a second. However, each frame is made up of two fields. Each field is half an image, and when combined with another field it makes a frame. The fields combined aren't the same image though, which will give you shenanigans like those seen in that pic I posted above. So in interlaced video there are 60 fields per a second, and 30 frames per a second.
Now bob deinterlacing works by separating the fields and turning them into frames(in other words it completes the half-picture of the field), turning the 60 fields (30 frames) into 60 true frames per a second.


I hope that made sense ?____?. (it probably didn't xP).



One last thing; all pinnacle usb capture cards (and nearly all capture cards for that matter) capture video at 30fps interlaced. You said you set it to 60fps.... I messed with every fps setting on virtualdub and none of them really did anything. Some slowed the video down but it didn't change the video itself. Others really didn't do anything, which makes since as virtualdub can't change what the capture card is capable of doing.
 

Deoxys

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near Boston, MA
So is it really any faster to land the Nado at a specific height, or do all non-botched landings have 29 frames of cooldown? I'm not clear on this anymore.

Also, you're defining cooldown as the time until the first IASA frame?
 

hotgarbage

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Hmm...good job.

How long does it take to collect all that data?
Eh, I didn't really pay attention to time, but it takes a few hours. Mainly because to figure out hitboxes you have to run someone into the move many times. Someone needs to figure out how to make hitboxes visible :mad:.


So is it really any faster to land the Nado at a specific height, or do all non-botched landings have 29 frames of cooldown? I'm not clear on this anymore.

Also, you're defining cooldown as the time until the first IASA frame?
All non-botched tornados have a total of 29 frames of cooldown, with cooldown being the frames after the hitbox disappears to the move's first IASA frame. The landing lag adapts to this. So, for an example, if your tornado stops in midair and you fall for 20 frames you'll have 9 frames of landing lag. If you fall for 6 frames you'll have 23 frames of landing lag. If you fall for 30 frames you'll get 30 frames of landing lag on top of the time you spent falling. I'm not sure what happens if you fall for 29 frames. Hope that made sense x______x.





hmmm... I'm going to add "IASA on ##" later today to avoid any confusion. I'm going to keep "duration" as it is because for all practical purposes the move is over when the 1st IASA frame arrives; the continuing animation is merely cosmetic in most cases.
EDIT: or maybe I'll just remove "duration", as having them both seems redundant.... bah, I'll deal with it later. Too tired :X.

And now on a completely unrelated subject, I thought this was interesting :p :
me said:
UAIR

frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
duration: 13
hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
aerial cooldown: 10
landing lag: 12
autocancels on: 21
Notice how the move can be interrupted on frame 14.... but it doesn't autocancel until frame 21! This means that if you're using this close to the ground and want to land afterwards you should interrupt the move with an airdodge first. MK CAN L CANCEL DAAAAAAAAAAA
 

Tenki

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Questions:

1- Can Metaknight fastfall during his higher/"lagless landing" tornadoes?
2- If so, does it make a difference?

Also, while re-writing my request for Sonic frame data and using the list I used to ask you, I came across a part that isn't exactly mentioned here:
Smashes and charging
- What frame can you start to charge a smash? Is it just a matter of [frame 2- break here to begin charge animation, then continue to frame 3]?
- Duration from charge's release until hitbox out?

it'd be cool :3
 

hotgarbage

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Geeze, it's been a while since I checked this thread :dizzy:. Life you cad you.

Questions:

1- Can Metaknight fastfall during his higher/"lagless landing" tornadoes?
2- If so, does it make a difference?
MK can only fastfall when he is in his "helpless" animation.... and if you're in that you'll be getting the botched landing.


Also, while re-writing my request for Sonic frame data and using the list I used to ask you, I came across a part that isn't exactly mentioned here:
Smashes and charging
- What frame can you start to charge a smash? Is it just a matter of [frame 2- break here to begin charge animation, then continue to frame 3]?
- Duration from charge's release until hitbox out?

it'd be cool :3
Sure thing! That shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.


Anyways I'm going to begin working on this again... probably starting with his up-b. Once again if anyone has any requests or if I missed anything don't hesitate to tell me ;).

Oh, and if you guys want this stickied be sure to pm a mod :bee:


EDIT:
One last thing. If anyone wants to contribute or just get data for their own character check out this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193379

If you have a capture card, a pc that doesn't completely suck, and patience you can get frame data
 

hotgarbage

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I was about to replay "I already got that"..... but then I noticed that I forgot to get it for his aerials and his special moves :X. I should be able get that this morning, along with aerial advantage on shield.

EDIT: I swear everytime I commit to something it doesn't work out <____>. This info will come as soon as possible.
 

Deoxys

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All non-botched tornados have a total of 29 frames of cooldown, with cooldown being the frames after the hitbox disappears to the move's first IASA frame. The landing lag adapts to this. So, for an example, if your tornado stops in midair and you fall for 20 frames you'll have 9 frames of landing lag. If you fall for 6 frames you'll have 23 frames of landing lag. If you fall for 30 frames you'll get 30 frames of landing lag on top of the time you spent falling. I'm not sure what happens if you fall for 29 frames. Hope that made sense x______x.

[...]
And now on a completely unrelated subject, I thought this was interesting :p :

Notice how the move can be interrupted on frame 14.... but it doesn't autocancel until frame 21! This means that if you're using this close to the ground and want to land afterwards you should interrupt the move with an airdodge first. MK CAN L CANCEL DAAAAAAAAAAA
I agree that someone needs to get a hack for visable hitboxes...

So it doesn't matter if you do a grounded Nado or a "DK's head height" Nado, since the lag is always the same? I ask because someone started a thread here and said that the Nado is optimal at the height of DK's head. I want to make sure that they were wrong.

Is there any other move MKs should "L Cancel?"
 

hotgarbage

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I agree that someone needs to get a hack for visable hitboxes...

So it doesn't matter if you do a grounded Nado or a "DK's head height" Nado, since the lag is always the same? I ask because someone started a thread here and said that the Nado is optimal at the height of DK's head. I want to make sure that they were wrong.
Assuming you don't get the botched landing, the time where you can not perform any actions (29 frames) is the same whether you stop the tornado on the ground or in the air. Despite that it's still preferable to stop the tornado in the air because at least then you're a moving target and you can space yourself while falling.

Is there any other move MKs should "L Cancel?"
No, his uair is the only one.
 
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I wanted to know how punishable a certain attack chain was punishable. You use your glide attack on a person's shield close to the ground, creating the laglass at the end of the glide attack and a hitstun on a shield. Now from there, if you were to use your mach tornado directly after the glide attack in the hitstun of the shield, which is very little I believe, how many frames are available for Meta Knight to get hit in from Glide attack to mach tornado?
 

Tenki

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^
probably Tornado's startup lag + 3-5 frames of falling, depending on how low you are to the ground.
 

hotgarbage

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How quickly can landing lag be canceled into dair?
I'm not quite sure what you're asking here..... If you're referring to when the dair first autocancels it does so on frame 24 of his dair.


@__crystal____ : Tenki has it right. That reminds me that I need to get data on his glide attack. I think that's what I'll do next. It's optimal advantage on shield should be interesting.
 

PEEF!

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Yeah, I would like to know more about the glide attack as well.

I want to know if I hit the glide attack then a dtilt if I will be quicker than a shieldgrabber...

BTW this is amazing work, I love you, and I'll get this stickied.
 

Tero.

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I want to know if I hit the glide attack then a dtilt if I will be quicker than a shieldgrabber...
GA has hardly any lag at all iirc, i assume 4 frames of general landing lag? (not sure about this)
Dtilt startup is 3-4 frames until the hitbox is out, so this plus shieldstun should prevent you from getting shieldgrabbed (only if you hit the lower part of their shield ofc).
 

hotgarbage

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down B? or is it impossible to get the frame data?
Nah, it's possible (though it would be a pain). It just isn't a priority because it's not a very good move :p. I'll get to it eventually.


Yeah, I would like to know more about the glide attack as well.

I want to know if I hit the glide attack then a dtilt if I will be quicker than a shieldgrabber...

BTW this is amazing work, I love you, and I'll get this stickied.
Thanks, I appreciate it :p.

In response to your question though... yes and no.
If you get the hard landing (4 frames) you'll have a -3 advantage at best, which means that your best option would be to spotdodge to avoid the incoming grab. If you dtilt or ftilt you'll trade hits with the grab.
If you get the soft landing (2 frames) however, you'll only have a -1 advantage, which means that your dtilt will come out 2 frames before the grab.

Note that the above only applies if you execute the glide attack perfectly (meaning that the attack comes out and you land the next frame). If you're trying to spotdodge the grab you have a 1 frame margin of error for the hard landing and a 3 frame margin of error for the soft landing. It's possible to do all this... but probably not very practical. It would be safest to rely on the attack's considerable range rather than a possible minimal negative frame advantage.


Now then, about the hard and soft landing. I'm not exactly sure what factor determines the landing you get, but from a double jump glide an unaltered glide into glide attack yields the soft landing. If the glide's trajectory is altered downward any you'll get the hard landing. So yeah, more often than not you're going to be getting the hard landing :/.



EDIT: on an unrelated subject I had forgotten to take into account shield hitlag :X. Because of this some advantages may be off by a few frames. I'll patch this up tomorrow.


EDIT 2: oops. Forgot to mention that the first 2 paragraphs are assuming that the character trying to grab has a standard 6 frame grab. Against characters with slow grabs (like zss) your options are going to be much better (obviously :p).
 

Deoxys

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I'm not quite sure what you're asking here..... If you're referring to when the dair first autocancels it does so on frame 24 of his dair.


@__crystal____ : Tenki has it right. That reminds me that I need to get data on his glide attack. I think that's what I'll do next. It's optimal advantage on shield should be interesting.
You know, I forget what I was trying to ask.

Dimensional Cape is better than Jab, at least. It has its applications.
 

hotgarbage

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Eh, this is kind of an unnecessary post, but I just wanted to point out how good mk's bair is on shield (it surprised me :p)



Optimal shield advantage: -3
Optimal shield drop advantage: +4


Of course this assumes you land the move on it's first autocancel frame. The timing isn't that awkward though, and even if you don't land it perfectly there's enough room for error to be comfortable. At worst you won't get punished (assuming you space well and don't land before the ac point). At best you'll have your opponent in a nasty frame trap.


Oh, and I forgot to point out that mk's glide attack works in the same way.... but it's much more difficult to do correctly due to the nature of it (specifically because the attack is telegraphed and spacing is more difficult because mk continues to travel forward after the attack hits)
 

Shaya

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Meta knight's Ftilt, "properly" executed

Has
1st hit frame 3
2nd hit frame 6
3rd hit frame 10
IASA/END: 41

Sorry to bump, but this was tested in debug/pause mode. And the difference in data (in the first post) to what's -technically possible- is quite large.
 

hotgarbage

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Hm, thanks for that info; I'll look into it and see what's going on.


EDIT:

You're right, I'm not sure how I missed the fact that the 2nd and 3rd hit's speed were dependent on how fast you pressed the attack button >____>.

Anyways here's what I got:
1st hit frame 3
2nd hit frame 6
3rd hit frame 9
END: 40

The only difference being the last hit; which I was able to get by using buffering optimally. Anyways thanks again for catching that :), I'll give you credit for doing so.
 

hotgarbage

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It's possible because that's the way it is? Maybe this little snippet from a previous post will help put it in perspective:
ME said:
Notice how the move can be interrupted on frame 14.... but it doesn't autocancel until frame 21! This means that if you're using this close to the ground and want to land afterwards you should interrupt the move with an airdodge first. MK CAN L CANCEL DAAAAAAAAAAA
 
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