Metaknight Matchup Discussion

[TLMSheikant]

Discuss the Metaknight matchup here.

Ratio:
65:35 metaknight's favor

Toon Link's advantages:
*Can keep up with metaknight in the air through use of his bair and proyectiles.
*Moves faster in the air allowing him to avoid metaknight pretty well in the air.
*Bombs beat tornado and a lot of other mk stuff.

Metaknight's advantages:
*Tornado beats all of Toon Link's moves except bombs, pivot grabs and dair from directly above.
*Can gimp Toon Link relatively easily.
*His close range game is overwhelming against Toon Link.
*His grounded shuttle loop beats every aerial Toon Link throws at his shield.
*Almost unpunishable tilts.
*His overwhelming speed can make it hard to camp.

Stages to Strike:
*Yoshi's Island
*Lylat Cruise

Stage to Ban:
*Brinstar

Counterpick Stages:
*Halberd/Final Destination

Things to keep in mind:
*Being predictable while vulnerable to tornado is dangerous.
*If you have to take 30% to make it back onstage, that's always better than the alternative of getting hit by a dair or two and telling that stock goodbye.
*Grounded shuttle loop can be punished with bair or upair if the mk doesnt glide attack in time to clash.
*His down tilt is practically unpunishable on Toon Link's shield.
*You can grab mk out of dsmash.

Tactics/Attacks that help in this matchup:
*Always having a bomb out helps a lot. They aid your recovery, great for camping, beat tornado and are a great tool in the mk matchup.

Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWMmyro9sYA Affinity vs mjg friendly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK-lHW0gyVo L vs smasher tourney match

This matchup is garbage for Toon Link. You better pray with both hands on this one lol.

65:35 overall. Could possibly be 7:3, depends on what you rank 7:3 as (if you have Dedede vs DK as 7:3, then this certainly isn't as bad.)

Shuttle Loop, whether it be in the air or on the ground, blows for TL. It stuffs out too much too often, and disrupts your game plan.

Off the edge, be smart and don't let him gimp you. More likely than not, you ARE going to get hit while offstage. Take it like a little boy Man, and focus on getting back to the stage through any means necessary than trying to dodge a move and end up getting gimped anyways. If you have to take 30% to make it back, that's always better than the alternative of getting hit by a dair or two and telling that stock goodbye.

Tilts on the ground aren't fun to deal with either. Be careful with your aerial spacing as you don't want to eat a OOS Nair or Uair string and get shafted.

Do not get predictable while you are vulnerable to moves like Tornado. Leaving yourself open consistently to a move like that is a plain recipe for disaster.

Usmash or Uair maybe is what you are probably gonna kill with. Fsmash is strong, but being able to actually guarantee that second hit will be very hard.

I'd say my opinion has slightly changed. I think his onstage game is a lot better than what I thought. All MK has to do is put you in the air. So if we're trying to be super safe in our shields, we're gonna get grabbed. And when you get grabbed, you're gonna get hit.

Another thing is, I don't find it safe to aircamp bombs to much. If they read one double jump, you're gonna get shuttle looped which could cost you the stock.

You have to KNOW when you're gonna get shuttle looped. There are a bunch of ways to try to recover against MK. Bomb backwards to bair like mentioned is one. Another is going low and throwing a bomb up. I would focus on trying to connect with a boomerang though, since even if they're right in your face, it's safe. Lately Lee's been going super low, waiting for the rang , then doing a rising dair for the gimp though.

When you do see them going for the dair gimp and you jump on TOP of the MK (or if they went super low), get ready to ibomb. You have to know when you're in the exact position to get reverse shuttle looped, then do it.

We have millions of strategies and tips to fight mk...all they knew to do is get you offstage. We can spend an hour trying to rack up damage and get the kill safely. They can come back and dair you twice. MK can and will take a stock off you a LOT easier then you can. Just because of how quickly the situation can change and how dangerous it is, I'd say 65-35. At least we have a chance vs Falco when we're at high percents. Just don't get killed.

 

[DMG]

This matchup is garbage for Toon Link. You better pray with both hands on this one lol.

65:35 overall. Could possibly be 7:3, depends on what you rank 7:3 as (if you have Dedede vs DK as 7:3, then this certainly isn't as bad.)

Shuttle Loop, whether it be in the air or on the ground, blows for TL. It stuffs out too much too often, and disrupts your game plan.

Off the edge, be smart and don't let him gimp you. More likely than not, you ARE going to get hit while offstage. Take it like a little boy Man, and focus on getting back to the stage through any means necessary than trying to dodge a move and end up getting gimped anyways. If you have to take 30% to make it back, that's always better than the alternative of getting hit by a dair or two and telling that stock goodbye.

Tilts on the ground aren't fun to deal with either. Be careful with your aerial spacing as you don't want to eat a OOS Nair or Uair string and get shafted.

Do not get predictable while you are vulnerable to moves like Tornado. Leaving yourself open consistently to a move like that is a plain recipe for disaster.

Usmash or Uair maybe is what you are probably gonna kill with. Fsmash is strong, but being able to actually guarantee that second hit will be very hard.

 

[Jem.]

I will post here with a lot of experience with argueably vs the best toon link (Chip)

I'm around 10-2 vs Chip, and I will say some things i've noticed.

I counterpick Brinstar, just because its small and I feel its MK's best stage. It's harder for Toon Link to camp there too.

I ban Halberd to avoid easy upsmash kills.

At low percents, most MK mains (well, atleast me since I play vs Chip a lot) know that if you down throw toon link, he'll fade back DI and zair, so I just tornado out of dthrow instead of dashing towards him and toon link has no options.

Campy metaknights play into Toon Links favor. When I play super aggressive but smart, I just keep toon link pressured and don't give him many options besides to jump or find a way to hit me.

Toon link suffers from what characters like Olimar suffer from. The first couple times its tricky, but the more you play it, the easier it becomes unless you create new tricks and be sure to punish a greedy Metaknight. Toon Link can punish Tornado with bombs obviously, and if he doesn't have a bomb, he has a pretty decent pivot grab/dash attack where he can almost no matter what hit an MK once his tornado is in the falling state.

I've seen Chip try to lay bombs on the ground/platforms so he can try to create a Diddy Wall. Not sure how effective it is though.

I think this matchup is 60-40 Metaknight favor. Nothing too horrific like D3 vs DK, but definently not a good matchup for Toon Link.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I'm glad we have this. This will be a permantish thread, correct?

At the first post, I agree with most you said. MK's grounded shuttle loop ***** all of Tink's awesome shield pressure. Tink can punish it well though with running past and Bairing. If they are less competent, Uair is a great kill move to punish SL, but they have time to glide attack to clank.

At Jem: Just had to say though Chip is great, it's pretty obvious that Jash is better. Other than that, good things to not.

Imma have to say right now: this MU is NOT worse than 65-35. It's not good at all, but probably 60-40 or 65-35. It isn't DK vs DDD at all.

I'll say some helpful things later and upload my matches vs Affinity.

 

[MJG]

^Unless you played Affinity in a tournament, uploading a friendly wont help (since im pretty sure he sandbags in most of his friendlies)

Will put more input in later...have to go for now >_>

 

[NearZzz]

What DMG said. 65:35 imo. Play it super safe at all times, one mistake can lead to an early gimp.

Also agreeing with DMG here, be super safe when recovering, taking a hit or two is a lot better than walking into a gimp. I-bombing shuttle loop when he chases you in the air can help you get back down without worry, also works with tornado to a lesser extent.

Bombs bombs bombs. You always need to have one out, whether its for a recovery boost, camping aid, or a way to stop the nado, though sometimes the bomb will go through it.

Trying to constantly punish the nado is a bad idea as well, as he can usually be safe and start it up again/ Nair oos.

tl;dr
Play super safe.
Camp hard.
Use lots of bombs.
Be aware of gimps.

 

[WindMajor]

Adding onto the bombs thing, you CANNOT WASTE BOMBS. Don't be like me, who just tosses bombs out of muscle memory. Use them, and be random when you use them. Don't just throw it at him. You can Z drop, iBomb, JC Throw, and whatever bomb tech we feel is applicable.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I know Affinity sandbagged...It's still Tink VS MK, which can only help.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yeah, vids of good players always help. I'll add good vids of the matchup to the OP .

 

[MJG]

Ok DTL

Ill do that the...heres Affinity and I playing before his tournament

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWMmyro9sYA

 

[Hyro]

At low percents, most MK mains (well, atleast me since I play vs Chip a lot) know that if you down throw toon link, he'll fade back DI and zair, so I just tornado out of dthrow instead of dashing towards him and toon link has no options.

Actually it's called basic mixups. I rarely zair out of dthrow vs better mks because they know it's coming. We DO have options...we simply DI down, hold shield and punish the nado.

Not 100% sure but I think we can even zair and then hold shield?? Maybe not.

Anyways, it sucks that I never get vids up when I'm playing my best. Me vs. Inui last night would've helped...

Still a hopeless matchup...but I guess not as bad as D3 DK. I'll say 65-35.

Last 3 or 4 tourneys...I've only lost to MK's

Proof that toon link can't be beaten without MK's:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264323

 

[MJG]

^Yes. You can zair and hold shield as long as you react fast enough.

Yay for jash ^_^

MK is the man and he's holding TL down >_>

 

[kirbyfan66]

I see a lot of people saying this matchup is awful.
...
It is. XD

There's really not much Toon Link can do. MK has him beat in the air, on the ground, off the ledge, recovery, everything except projectiles, which MK has none of. Still, isn't 70-30 pushing it? Toon Link doesn't do THAT horrible, especially on Final Destination. I'd say that's the best stage.

As a MK user, I'd say this matchup is 65-35 in MK's favor. TL's may think it's worse, but that's my verdict.

Also, DK-D3 isn't as bad as Bowser-D3. =P

 

[WindMajor]

Some mistakes I've made against Sheikant's MK is using TL's tether recovery to recover. He always dairs it, and I always get gimped. It's really slow, and it gives the bat enough time to land the dair.

Also, dairing MK's tornado never works. I mean, it does, but most of the times you do it, you'll just miss and get sucked into it even more. It's not safe.

Sheikant, next time we play, go MK on me.

 

[MJG]

I see a lot of people saying this matchup is awful.
...
It is. XD

There's really not much Toon Link can do. MK has him beat in the air, on the ground, off the ledge, recovery, everything except projectiles, which MK has none of. Still, isn't 70-30 pushing it? Toon Link doesn't do THAT horrible, especially on Final Destination. I'd say that's the best stage.

As a MK user, I'd say this matchup is 65-35 in MK's favor. TL's may think it's worse, but that's my verdict.

Also, DK-D3 isn't as bad as Bowser-D3. =P

MK doesn't have TL COMPLETELY beat in the air. As I recall, MK has one of the slowest Aerial movements in the game (Besides Shuttle Loop A.K.A. Aerial flying at your face at 26463474634674 mph).

 

[Thebest1pj]

Actually it's called basic mixups. I rarely zair out of dthrow vs better mks because they know it's coming. We DO have options...we simply DI down, hold shield and punish the nado.

Not 100% sure but I think we can even zair and then hold shield?? Maybe not.

Anyways, it sucks that I never get vids up when I'm playing my best. Me vs. Inui last night would've helped...

Still a hopeless matchup...but I guess not as bad as D3 DK. I'll say 65-35.

Last 3 or 4 tourneys...I've only lost to MK's

Proof that toon link can't be beaten without MK's:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264323

i was watching that rooting you on first match you should have won just got gayed 2nd match was amazing you were busting out OMG ****

 

[demonictoonlink]

Tink isn't actually that bad VS MK in the air. Tinks Bair combined with crap flying everywhere does well against MKs aerials.

The worst part of this MU, and I'm pretty sure all Tink's would agree with me, is off stage. Getting back is near impossible. Ledge dropped Nair>>>Our UpB and Dair>>>Us trying to make it back on.

In a game where characters were not allowed to edge guard, this MU would be 55-45 MK. As this obviously isn't the case, Tinks are just going to understand the importance of staying onstage (easier said than done obviously).

Bad MU is bad, but kinda winnable MU is kinda winnable. At least we have some cool tricks against MKs who don't know the MU.

 

[Jem.]

Actually it's called basic mixups. I rarely zair out of dthrow vs better mks because they know it's coming. We DO have options...we simply DI down, hold shield and punish the nado.

Not 100% sure but I think we can even zair and then hold shield?? Maybe not.

Anyways, it sucks that I never get vids up when I'm playing my best. Me vs. Inui last night would've helped...

Still a hopeless matchup...but I guess not as bad as D3 DK. I'll say 65-35.

Last 3 or 4 tourneys...I've only lost to MK's

Proof that toon link can't be beaten without MK's:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264323

If you DI above me, I'm going to nado.

If you DI away, I'm going to nado.

I've never seen Chip been able to escape it, and he's beaten some pretty dang good metaknights, and took a game off Ally in tournament at Genesis. So I don't see why it'd just be something that I've "mastered"

Good stuff @ Jash nice 1st place!!

 

[TLMSheikant]

Actually you can DI away a little down, zair and raise your shield in time if you get down thrown. I do it all the time. You can also DI away and a little down and airdodge just before touching the ground. And you can also tech it.

 

[AllyKnight]

If you DI above me, I'm going to nado.

If you DI away, I'm going to nado.

I've never seen Chip been able to escape it, and he's beaten some pretty dang good metaknights, and took a game off Ally in tournament at Genesis. So I don't see why it'd just be something that I've "mastered"

Good stuff @ Jash nice 1st place!!

I sd'ed vs Chip at 2% lol that's the only reason why.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ Ouch lmao.

 

[Gnes]

Now THATS namesearching

 

[AllyKnight]

who said I didn't Gnes?

 

[demonictoonlink]

I'm just happy Ally posted in the Tink boards.

BTW Hi Ally!

I'm helping?

 

[Hyro]

Ally you were supposed to money match me at Pound 4!!! That way you could talk **** for me ya know?

 

[Sosuke]

Talk about the matchup or gtfo.

 

[demonictoonlink]

No!!! We have notable players on the Tink boards for once. Let us have our fun!

K fine. MK's Dsmash is a pretty great kill move.

I think Dair is better in the MU than most. (onstage...) MKs usually think they have complete dominance from below so an occasional Down Air helps. Obv. don't get predictable.

 

[DMG]

MK can Uair you out of Dair.

Gay lol

 

[demonictoonlink]

Yeah...But it's quite ****ing hard to do. I know it out ranges it/ out speeds it, but I am yet to be hit out of it without at least hitting the MK as well.

I know it's doable, but it helps us get a bit less ***** up the butt literally.

 

[MJG]

If the MK is grounded and toonlink decides to dair him (hoping that he will drop his shield), then MK can jump OoS and Up Air in time. But like DTL said, I haven't been hit out of it yet

 

[WindMajor]

If I'm not mistaken, our Uair beats out his Dair. Can someone confirm this?




And also, lets follow the guidelines on the OP.

 

[MJG]

^Im pretty sure Uair out ranges Dair.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Yeah I'm borderline certain. I don't know where to find the ranges of all attacks though...
Anyways, back on topic, what are we supposed to be talking about specifically right now?

 

[MJG]

I don't know why but...I seem to be having slight issue with playing MK on BF..I find myself off stage more than usual (yet, I survive longer, which is dumb still). I don't mind playing MK on the stage but I just need to be able to play on that stage vs MK; its actually my favorite stage to play on as toonlink and thats why it is bothering me..

Anyways, I think it is obvious that Halberd and Final Destination will be our best stages to play MK on. I like Smashville as well and I usually end up going to that stage during the stage striking process anyways.

Im still up in the air with Brinstar...im starting to dislike that stage more and more vs MK >_<

65:35 Metaknight D:

 

[Thebest1pj]

how is RC ad bad stage for us vs mk? i mean hes gonna spend the whole time flying after us (most likely from below) while we run and throw stuff

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yeah I'm borderline certain. I don't know where to find the ranges of all attacks though...
Anyways, back on topic, what are we supposed to be talking about specifically right now?

Well, just post in the format of the OP. Unless, you want to discuss everything one by one and make it harder for me >_>.

 

[WindMajor]

RC is a bad stage against an MK because MK will gimp us like crazy there. It's a good stage for TL, but we can't run away from MK forever. MK is better at this stage than we are.

As far as neutrals go, I would pick FD. If it's striked, pick Smashville, and if that's picked too, I personally would choose Battlefield.

As a CP, I would probably pick Delfino Plaza, but that's just me.

Spoiler

and most likely Sheikant

 

[kirbyfan66]

He may be slow, but he's lethal. Fair and Dair are a TLs worst nightmares (maybe not worst, but close). Nair and Bair are fairly lethal as well.

And yeah, Shuttle Loop is just too good.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ Metaknight...slow? Does not compute. Aaanyways, this needs more discussion, toon link mains should post more long *** paragraphs imo.

 

[demonictoonlink]

He's extremely slow in the air. He was talking about his aerials.

Which does make the point: Tink can avoid MK in the air decently. We're hella fast in the air and he's hella slow.