Metagame Advancement Thread

[Prawn]

lol ICs lets be real here. It is VERY hard to tech or meteor cancel(for some characters), especially ON REACTION. it is also a LOT easier to do then a cg to a kill percent(especially at low percents or near the edge which would make you in position for a spike). And EVEN if they survive you are giving a huge positional advantedge that can lead to a gimp, another spike, or a grab very easily.


tl;dr Spike when you can, it has won me important tournament sets.

agree? disagree? this board is too quiet.

edit: this is now the metagame advancement thread, feel free to discuss all your ideas about new IC stuff!

i dont want to put this in social or Q and A because nobody ever even posts threads anymore cause its all "covered in the guide lolololol". anything can be rediscussed and threads are a better way to do it.

Spoiler

bite me

 

[toobusytocare]

in friendlies i'd always finish CGs with a fthrow to spike

now pretty much everyone in my region has learned to SDI and tech that ****

oh well, there's always bair for finishing CGs in style


also if they SDI and tech they always tech the side of the stage, so you can't follow the tech :\

i also forgot to add that a lot of characters can survive the spike at 100+% even without SDI and teching.
like snake

and agreed with hobbling
like, if its a guaranteed death thats EASY to do, then why not?
just do alt grabs up to 60% or w.e so they wont mash out

 

[Prawn]

if snake upbs his recovery is so bad that you should be ****ting on his life for a LOT of damage, a kill or another grab. again im not saying cg towards the edge with the intent of spiking, im saying when the oppurtunity arises, and another grab isnt that easy(such as right on the edge) .

 

[toobusytocare]

yeah but even if he's in a bad spot, there is a chance of his survival whereas if you had continued the CG and finished with a smash then there is a fraction of a chance of him surviving (aka you have to trip for him to survive)

 

[Rubberbandman]

if snake upbs his recovery is so bad that you should be ****ting on his life for a LOT of damage, a kill or another grab.

Don't forget footstools either. Footstooling on the C4 recovery makes you look cool and smart at the same time. Plus they only have one option after it: C4 recover again. (or die)

 

[Hylian]

They don't even need to tech you can DI the spike onto the stage. I never spike anymore because practically everyone in texas sdi's onto the stage.

 

[Smoom77]

That's what I was trying to say, but no one got it so I gave up.

 

[Sieguest]

That's what I was trying to say, but no one got it so I gave up.

LIES!!!
VVVV

I agree with Prawn. Unless they have AMAZING SDI, then they won't tech it.

>__________>

 

[Smoom77]

I guess I said it the wrong way...but that's what I meant. I promise.

 

[Sieguest]

hmmm. K
I believe you. But if my trust is betrayed the mad grimers will eat you.

 

[Smoom77]

is better than grimer

 

[Prawn]

hylian if you do the fthrow to spike and not the nothrow i really dont think its possible to sdi onto the stage. and like i said you're desyncd and can do a grab followup

 

[swordgard]

Some people dont seem to understand QCDI...

 

[Smoom77]

Instead of saying that SG, can you explain QCDI, or even tell us what it is? Cause I know I've heard of it but I don't remember it.

 

[swordgard]

Instead of saying that SG, can you explain QCDI, or even tell us what it is? Cause I know I've heard of it but I don't remember it.

No.


I can't explain what I have explained countless times before in a guide i wrote...

 

[Smoom77]

Then link me to the guide.

 

[swordgard]

Then link me to the guide.

Why don't you search it?

 

[Smoom77]

Why don't you just link me?

 

[swordgard]

Why don't you just link me?

Not my job, your job as a player though.

 

[Sieguest]

Why don't you just link me?

QCDI is a way to get more inputs in a small amount of time to SDI alot, i was saying that you can basically SDI through someone easily with it to get off. Im pretty sure you could also away from the wall up to where the ice climbers and get past them, its never truly an infinite (except if your circled by 2 walls, then ics can regrab and restart and no matter where youl go youl be screwed)

Searching for the specific guide would be too much trouble so I just found that.

EDIT: In other news, I thread searched "QCDI" and there wasn't a single thread with swordgard as the author. >.> Is the guide that old? (or does it even exist <.<)

 

[Smoom77]

Not my job, your job as a player though.

I thought it was called being nice.

I'm sorry.

 

[swordgard]

Searching for the specific guide would be too much trouble so I just found that.

EDIT: In other news, I thread searched "QCDI" and there wasn't a single thread with swordgard as the author. >.> Is the guide that old? (or does it even exist <.<)

Search DI in thread name. Or directional influence. I can't recall.

 

[Sieguest]

Found it. >.> Didn't think to look in Brawl Tactical. (facepalm?)

 

[DeLux]

Here's my take on this debate, similar to what I posted earlier in the Q&A thread:

There seems to be two camps in regard to this - People who feel spiking is bad because people can DI/SDI out of the throw and survive vs. People who feel spiking is a good option because it lowers the risk of dropping a chain grab.

Central to the debate is whether the FAir throw is DIable (ps: on record, it is, at least from my experience). If it is DIable, then a Fair spike throw's success is contingent on both the IC successfully executing the move AND the opponent failing to DI. However, by continuing the chain grab, the only criterion is the IC executing his CG. Therefore, continuing the chaingrab has to be considered the superior option.

Especially since with a continued CG, the whole entire debate is circumvented because last time I checked, you can't DI out of a 0-death upsmash chain grab. That's not up for debate. Just do work on them chain grabs =]

 

[Prawn]

lol the only person i can trust with the "continue the grab" option honestly is swordguard. the rest of you are not even close to consistent enough on snake at low percents near the edge with proper mashing from the other player to pull off a 0-death even 20 percent of the time i bet.

be realistic. Play to win. Most people arent gonna tech it

 

[B0NK]

So can we all agree just do what works until it stops working? >_>

I think that pretty much applies for anything in this game. If it works on your opponent, than do it, whether it is escapable or not.

Next step is to know when to change it up, as in when your opponent is about to catch on and changes his playstyle, and how to counter the opponents change. (applies more so to the match as a whole than just this CG debate).

So in this case, if your opponents are DIing and teching the stage, figure out how to counter that by either tech chasing into another grab or attack or just change how you CG. Which method you use depends on which one works, if it works use it.

 

[Prawn]

well if they're sdiing then they arent mashing and you can hobble at any percent

derp derp

 

[Hylian]

hylian if you do the fthrow to spike and not the nothrow i really dont think its possible to sdi onto the stage. and like i said you're desyncd and can do a grab followup

I've tried the dthrow, nt spike, and fthrow they DI them all back onto the stage consistently. Every single person I spike here even bad players DI onto the stage. I've tried it on Ally, he di'ed back on. I've tried it on M2K, he di'ed back on. I really don't understand why people spike when you have a guaranteed kill from a grab. You say be real and most people won't tech but in my experience it's the opposite, most people DI back on the stage. You're just limiting yourself as a player to take the easy way out, you should just be practicing CGing instead of relying on gimmicks.

 

[DeLux]

lol the only person i can trust with the "continue the grab" option honestly is swordguard. the rest of you are not even close to consistent enough on snake at low percents near the edge with proper mashing from the other player to pull off a 0-death even 20 percent of the time i bet.

be realistic. Play to win. Most people arent gonna tech it

I understand where you're coming from with the practicality argument. It has definite validity, admittedly, especially since I can usually 0-death Snake a little over half the time.

However, the impasse I see is based on the risk/reward scenarios. From a theoretical standpoint, I see the following:

Continued grab sequence:
Risk - dropping the CG forcing another chase down of your opponent leading to possible damage (player dependent)
Reward - opponent has no chance of any measurable form of retaliation.

Throw Spike:
Risk - opponent survives via DI/SDI/Meteor Cancel forces another chase down of your opponent leading to possible damage. (opponent dependent)
Reward - less chain grabs and thus less of a chance of a dropped chaingrab

Both have their obvious rewards. But I have to disagree with your conclusion, at least in theory.

It seems that the risks in the second scenario would make any advantage gained moot. At which point, especially at higher levels of play, the more you control in the match, and the less your opponent controls, the more likely you are to win. That being said, scenario one is situation one can get more reps on when practicing because it's entirely player dependent (minus struggling for grab breaks) after the grab and thus easier to recreate than something that is opponent dependent.

Long story short: If you are good at CGing, then you should continue the CG. If you aren't, then the next best thing would be the spike. I agree with Hylian haha

 

[LuigiKing]

No one in Moscow, Idaho knows how to DI the spike

 

[l!nk_aut]

I've tried the dthrow, nt spike, and fthrow they DI them all back onto the stage consistently. Every single person I spike here even bad players DI onto the stage. I've tried it on Ally, he di'ed back on. I've tried it on M2K, he di'ed back on. I really don't understand why people spike when you have a guaranteed kill from a grab. You say be real and most people won't tech but in my experience it's the opposite, most people DI back on the stage. You're just limiting yourself as a player to take the easy way out, you should just be practicing CGing instead of relying on gimmicks.

This contains pretty much everything what I was about to type.

 

[Aglow]

I concur with Hylian. Furthermore, the smash hobble is incredibly doable, and once you learn it, you will love it. It makes the snake matchup almost OK. If the spike opportunity appears, I might go for it, and worst comes to worst I read the DI and try to pivot grab. Early kills are nice either way. But a full smash-hobble CG takes less time than the avarage CG on light chars, and it's easy to execute.

 

[Hylian]

I smash hobble pretty often now. It's not too hard even with my default controls.

 

[Rubberbandman]

The best thing that can happen from a non-teched, Spike from throw is the fact that you can tech chase to get a new grab off. Finishing with a spike is almost completely useless compared to a cg or smash hobbling.

 

[Prawn]

what are some pros and cons of uair to uair and like uair to bair? does the staleness affect damage?

EDIT: actually, what are the best in air strings at varying percents? specifically very low percents? I usually just do uairs to uairs and sometimes mix in nairs unless im fooling around in friendlies. what do you guys do? anything creative??

 

[DeLux]

what are some pros and cons of uair to uair and like uair to bair? does the staleness affect damage?

EDIT: actually, what are the best in air strings at varying percents? specifically very low percents? I usually just do uairs to uairs and sometimes mix in nairs unless im fooling around in friendlies. what do you guys do? anything creative??

I think this is very situational depending on what you're constructing your game to be. I tend to avoid using B-air in strings because using it causes staleness removing a kill option later in the stock and the knockback will usually end the string, in contrast to repeated Uair juggling. I rarely kill with Uair as a tradeoff.

A fun one that I like to do to punish an airdodge when my game is on because timing is difficult: uair juggle to fastfall fair spike to landing desync blizzard chaser to grab. If the spike lands, the landing is in perfect position to tech chase with the blizzard covering your grab attempt. It rarely happens, but the scenario is common if I'm doing retreating Fairs and my opponent is too aggressive on approach.

 

[kackamee]

I smash hobble pretty often now. It's not too hard even with my default controls.

If I ever get the chance to hobble, it's always smash hobbling. Why not do the extra damage? And it isn't that hard.

 

[Smoom77]

I found something really easy. You know how when you smash hobble, you can't buffer the next bthrow for the hobble? What you do is just do a different cg.

Bthrow>footstool>ib>smash>grab>dthrow (to nana)>dthrow (to popo) >bthrow>footstool>ib>smash>grab>etc

Now we don't have to worry about getting mashed out! Just make sure you have your smash hobbling down.

 

[toobusytocare]

i dont see how smash hobbling is essential when regular hobbling is already an infinite

 

[Smoom77]

If you want to time them out....use regular hobbling. Cause it's very slow and doesn't give much damage. When you don't smash, I believe you can buffer your bthrow. So this could be a very easy stalling method actually.