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Meta Knight's New Match Up Thread: Zero Suit Samus

ぱみゅ

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Needs a catchier pic... just sayin' :V

Well, it's basically about powershielding her most ranged attacks (which is not so hard) and punish. However, her item game (suit pieces) is wonderful and really strong, so you must be careful.
Also, despite people's beliefs, Zamus is not that easy to gimp. She has tons of recovery options (high/even/lower to the stage), and her BackflipKick hurts.

I may elaborate deeper later.
 

Staco

Smash Champion
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You can´t actually punish her long to mid ranged attacks. :s
You can shield the side B, but you have to PS (which is kind of hard to do all the time), else it will sometimes randomly hit through your shield.
ZSS Dsmash on MK shield is save for her, she has got +4 frames advantage.
Tornado is kind of good but also bad in this MU.
It is good to get around ZSSs defensive game, but it can be punished pretty hard and easy by her.
ZSS is great at juggling MK.
 

ぱみゅ

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I spotdodge her long ranged attacks, is much easier and almost as effective lol
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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You can´t actually punish her long to mid ranged attacks. :s
Not if you dont Powershield
You can shield the side B, but you have to PS (which is kind of hard to do all the time), else it will sometimes randomly hit through your shield.
SideB tip is 31 frames of startup. The whip is 22. Both well within reaction time. SideB is pretty bad for ZSS if her opponent is grounded.
ZSS Dsmash on MK shield is save for her, she has got +4 frames advantage.
Wrong. ZSS Dsmash on shield is -5, meaning you can shieldgrab it if its spaced horribly, but ZSS can downB out of it. If you shield drop, the advantage is +1(2?), making it unpunishable.
Tornado is kind of good but also bad in this MU.
Nado high and retreat to a platform if zss doesnt challenge it
It is good to get around ZSSs defensive game, but it can be punished pretty hard and easy by her.
ZSS is great at juggling MK.
ZSS players like to charge Dsmash. MKs aerials dont beat it in horizontal range and if we see you go higher, we can release our shot and only suffer 5 frames of lag (tru story).

The thing with Dsmash is that, normally, its way easy to powershield. Its 20 frames on startup. Butttt if ZSS charges it, they can alter the release timing (which is only 5frames in startup), and if we delay it just by like 5-10 frames your powershield already missed, making it safe on shield.

And yeah, standard yomi if it hits your shield tbh.
 

ぱみゅ

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I just grabbed one off of the smash dojo, but if you wanna find a better picture, I'll be cool with changing it lol
http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/e6b956e0cb0388ad00be151384aabc81.png
http://sfwsexy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/samus_4.jpg
http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/e72025a37981a17d206656ff622f36ff.jpg

A good, not too big, safe for work image for Samus is hard to find lol
Also, It's kind of silly that we've been using every character's full -known- name, but we can use Samus Aran since there are two of them
/i-need-to-sleep-kind-of-ramdom-comment
 

Exdeath

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@ Ramses: Dsmash can only be shield grabbed if ZSS is close enough to jab, at which point it's a mix-up. I'm pretty sure that ZSS' jab comes out before MK's everything other than spot dodge unless it's power shielded. Also, ZSS punishes a retreated 'nado onto a platform better than most of the cast thanks to her speed/range. 'Nado is amazing vs. ZSS, but you can't just throw it out vs. a decent ZSS. It beats out all of her attacks if you're next to her or above her (other than Side-B, and even then it will usually out-speed it). ZSS' grab is horrible. I can't tell you how many times I've dashed at a ZSS, only to have them read my dash, grab at me, and whiff even though it goes straight past me.

I don't feel like making another post on this MU. I've gone over this MU several times in the various MU discussions, so you should be able to find it that way if you're interested.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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@ Ramses: Dsmash can only be shield grabbed if ZSS is close enough to jab, at which point it's a mix-up. I'm pretty sure that ZSS' jab comes out before MK's everything other than spot dodge unless it's power shielded. Also, ZSS punishes a retreated 'nado onto a platform better than most of the cast thanks to her speed/range. 'Nado is amazing vs. ZSS, but you can't just throw it out vs. a decent ZSS. It beats out all of her attacks if you're next to her or above her (other than Side-B, and even then it will usually out-speed it). ZSS' grab is horrible. I can't tell you how many times I've dashed at a ZSS, only to have them read my dash, grab at me, and whiff even though it goes straight past me.

I don't feel like making another post on this MU. I've gone over this MU several times in the various MU discussions, so you should be able to find it that way if you're interested.
Like I said, grab dsmash if its spaced horribly. If you grab and the ZSS jabs you get grab superarmor and take 1% damage from jab. Can only downB to avoid a grab in that case.

And yeah, ZSS can punish platform nados pretty darn well, dont know what I was thinking when I said that, lol.

downB kick goes through tornado so when we pop out we can downb away, making use of our first 12 frames of invulnerability and then just kick. If you follow us you get hit, if you dont the situation is reset, which, imo, is favorable for zss.
 

Staco

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If you get dsmashed on shield and you grab she can just Utilt/jab you, before the grab SA activates or the grab hits.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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Lol no.

Dsmash is -5 for ZSS thus +5 for you.
So metaknight starts grabbing
Grab startup is 6.
On frame 5 ZSS is neutral again, thus on frame 6 her next action starts. Her fastests actions are jab (1) and downb (frame 1 invincibility).
On frame 6 your grab comes out with grab armor SIMULTANEOUSLY with her jab.

Thus, you can grab jab (frame 1, you grab armor it) and utilt (frame 3, you are just straightout faster) buuuut ZSS has frame1 invincibility on downB so she can downB away.

Staco, face it, youre just not buffering your grab correctly.


Btw ask seibrik to come in here (namesearch)
 

Master Raven

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Seibrik I SUMMON THEE

edit: somehow I don't think Seibrik's going to come, so just in case, NAME SEARCH POWERS ACTIVATE

NAME SEARCH: REDHALBERD
 

OverLade

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You can Powershield Dsmash, drop your shield then Ftilt to punish. If ZSS is spacing Dsmash properly you should never be able to grab it and probably won't be able to Dsmash because you'll have to walk forward after the Powershield and by then the lag will have ended.

Anyway this matchup is definitley pretty solid 6/4. It's important to know how to avoid all her juggling stuff. If you ever get knocked up above ZSS, glide all the way off the stage and recover low. Her Uair/UpB will cleanly beat anything you can try. If you do this then you can avoid getting juggle *****, which is the number one problem MKs have in this matchup. At close range and lots of Ftilt, Dtilt and walk up grabs.
 

Staco

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You can Powershield Dsmash, drop your shield then Ftilt to punish. If ZSS is spacing Dsmash properly you should never be able to grab it and probably won't be able to Dsmash because you'll have to walk forward after the Powershield and by then the lag will have ended.

Anyway this matchup is definitley pretty solid 6/4. It's important to know how to avoid all her juggling stuff. If you ever get knocked up above ZSS, glide all the way off the stage and recover low. Her Uair/UpB will cleanly beat anything you can try. If you do this then you can avoid getting juggle *****, which is the number one problem MKs have in this matchup. At close range and lots of Ftilt, Dtilt and walk up grabs.
I should do that much more often actually.
Really helps in that MU.
Kaos had much less problems with the juggling, because he recovered to the side a lot.
 

KassandraNova

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You can Powershield Dsmash, drop your shield then Ftilt to punish. If ZSS is spacing Dsmash properly you should never be able to grab it and probably won't be able to Dsmash because you'll have to walk forward after the Powershield and by then the lag will have ended.

Anyway this matchup is definitley pretty solid 6/4. It's important to know how to avoid all her juggling stuff. If you ever get knocked up above ZSS, glide all the way off the stage and recover low. Her Uair/UpB will cleanly beat anything you can try. If you do this then you can avoid getting juggle *****, which is the number one problem MKs have in this matchup. At close range and lots of Ftilt, Dtilt and walk up grabs.
Wowsa. This was rather helpful! Thank you! :D
 

Sensei Seibrik

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someone actually messaged me on facebook a few days ago asking about this MU believe it or not, here's the quick summation i gave, if u have any questions about it or want me to go deeper about something just ask.

again this is a summation, so it really should just be looked at as a foundation for mk's learning the mu.



"i like to stay grounded and just outspace her, stay just outside her dsmash range, if u see the startup of side b, just throw an attack at her an interrupt it. you can also dair camp a bit above/in front of her, just to bait uairs, but predict them right and airdodge and u now have great positioning on her.

asside from that its just about edgeguarding. always be in the spacing where it looks like she can down b kick u, then predict when she'll do it, and jump nair (meeting them halfway before they're able to kick) if you can get rid of the down b, it can become really easy to gimp her, even if she has her dj."
 

DellSmashman

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Also I'd like to mention that if Tornado is used after MK jumps/is airborne, he can't be hit by D-Smash. Other than the mentioned tools above, can someone give me more tips that are good (and bad) for this MU? I'm not too familiar since I don't play that many ZSS's.
 

Master Raven

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MK can get hit by Dsmash in an aerial tornado if he's low enough - in fact, it happened to me last weekend vs Nick Riddle, and that set will be up soon. I might post it here once it's up if anyone feels it'll help.
 

OverLade

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Yeah you just have to always nado high vs ZSS. ZSS Has no reliable way to punish tornado so it's worth the risk. However good ZSS' (being Nick Riddle) will start being careful about how often they throw out Dsmash and focus on avoiding nado if you spam it.
 

OverLade

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That is true, but she still has a lot of trouble punishing nado even if she does. Even against the top ZSS I've found it's still worth spamming it as long as you're getting minimally punished.
 

Staco

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Using Tornado a lot doesn´t work. -.-
I tried it and I get punished almost everytime for using it vs. ZSS in neutral position, it just hits if she does sth. and I punish it with the Nado or if shes in the air.
 

OverLade

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Do you have any videos? I want to see how you're retreating with tornado. If you're getting punished, then lower your tornado as you retreat so that when the nado ends you're on the ground. This kind of Nado is really risky to punish for ZSS because her only punishes out of a run are dashgrab and dash attack.
 

Exdeath

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Just wait for her to do something that loses to Neutral B and then beat it on reaction. ZSS' dash grab is a pretty strong punish at low and high percents due to grab release>Uair (I don't see ZSS players do this often, though).
 

Master Raven

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I ****ing hate her grab range >_> it's really deceptive, and in that same set w/ NR I got caught by it by surprise a few times when I didn't think it'd reach me. Her dash grab boost can really psyche you out too.
 

Exdeath

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I ****ing hate her grab range >_> it's really deceptive, and in that same set w/ NR I got caught by it by surprise a few times when I didn't think it'd reach me. Her dash grab boost can really psyche you out too.
It has a dead spot. I can't tell you how many times I've dash straight through her grab or had it whiff on my shield.
 

infiniteV115

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I'm pretty sure most people know about this already but just in case...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3QPcEPqJ7o
ZSS has a grab-release CG on MK (confirmed)
She has a guaranteed grab release --> uair if properly timed (not that hard, confirmed)
She has a dash attack lock that works from ~40-60 (higher if DA is stale), and I've heard that grab-release --> dash attack is guaranteed (needs confirmation)
I've also heard that GR --> fair is guaranteed (also needs confirmation). I hope it's true because fair is ****ing beast XD

I'm too lazy to test, someone go find out

I know her grab is terrible and you don't really need to watch out for it (much), but this means that if you're facing a ZSS who uses these (I haven't seen many, honestly) you have even more reason to be careful about dsmash and neutral-b.
 

Joaco

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What should we do in case we get hit by her Dsmash?
 
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