Meta Knight's New Match Up Thread: Falco

[ぱみゅ]

Let's keep the MU discussion!

Now, is time for that annoying lazer guy: Falco Lombardi.

Spoiler

Geez... is really hard to get a good, catchy pick of him. I probably change this later.

Firstoff, do not post ratios, they're not useful in ANY WAY.
Comment about what to be aware of, what to do, what not to do, tips, stages, or whatever you think is useful against him.

Falcos' perspective: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259329

 

[Kotu]

Wut the hell are you talking about meta knight doesn't do that just cuz your the highest tier on the list doesn't mean you don't have to be a douche

 

[Orion*]

Wut the hell are you talking about meta knight doesn't do that just cuz your the highest tier on the list doesn't mean you don't have to be a douche

really guys you could show some more respect on the boards. this is a childrens website!

 

[Jem.]

Well, the most effective strategy is to dair camp until they get pissed off is pretty much the truth. I lost game 1 to Nerd Saturday, then on game 3, I dair camped on battlefield, and after 2 and a half minutes, only 30% was done TOTAL in the match. Eventually the falco gets greedy, goes for some bairs/nairs, then you read it and dair/nado, rack up the damage, eventually get the kill, and the cycle continues. Falco has a lot of options to beat Metaknight on the ground.

It's unfortunate the matchup is that ridiculous, but the most effective strategy vs Falco is to dair camp, shield lasers, sneak some of those dairs in, then force him to go in with bairs/nairs and nado.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This matchup is why I hate LGLs. Seriously. Even if we can't perfect plank, even if we just hang around the ledge just holding on to it until we automatically drop, then jumping like 5-6 times, then regrabbing... If falco approaches, just adding a few aerials to the mix, never actually doing really SAFE planking... If we could do that, the matchup would be something like 70-30 and obscenely easy. That is how strong the ledge is for MK in this matchup.
Never approach straight up. It's stupid. You want to be as gay and campy as possible. Stupid lazers and chaingrab. Always either come from above with rising dairs, from below if he's on a platform or sharkable. AFAIK.

 

[lilseph]

dair air camping is fantastic in this MU. Don't get impatient if your not doing much dmg, or dmg at all. (basically what Jem has already said lol)

stay in the air but as soon at your about 100% stay more grounded. If Falco catches you with a laser to Usmash it is more likely to hit if your in the air than if your grounded IIRC. The only way falco can really kill you is if he Usmash's or if he gets a bair. Tornado eats up bair and don't do stupid **** and you won't get hit by Usmash.

As far as stages go, i know a bit. I ban FD, and i take falco to Delfino. (i don't know if delfino is a good choice but i feel most comfortable taking falco there personally)

 

[Tokyoinamerica]

Like everyone has said Dair camping. It works very effectively. Your time in the air and how you use it is huge in this MU. Rising Dair camping, power shield lasers, don't let him grab you, and nado his ariels .

Most people have agreed on the same thing. And for stages I usually ban FD, and try and go to BF, or SV. Cp are Rainbow, halbred, and occasionally Delfino (All **** stages for MK anyways) Not a hard match-up if you play the matchup right. Don't get ancy and try to get in. Make him come to you where his lazers are not a factor. NADO!

 

[ぱみゅ]

I personally use to Dair and Tornado for pressure lol.
Falco's only OoS option is grab, and it works for most characters, but MK is one of the few exceptions if hes not stupid and lands right in front of him.
But I haven't faced hard camper Falcos. Pressure may couldn't work.

Other thing I use for pressure is Fair directly above Falco (but do not land in front of him), so if he tries jump, he'd be hitted by the lowest part of it. Be careful with it, tho...

Obvious notes:

Stay in the air and don't get grabbed. If he grabs you at 0%, you'll eat TONS of damage, and you'll most likely lose.

Falco is a fastfaller, so you can combo on him pretty easy at low-mid % (not 0%, if he's on 0, he'll land really fast and grab you).
Juggle with Uairs to bait an airdodge and Dair him. Dair ***** him.

He's pretty hard to gimp if he's above the main stage, if you're not careful he'll Illusion and spike you; it wouldn't kill you, but he's now in a safe position. Anyways, he's extremely easy to gimp if he's below it.
If you can read any Ilussion trying to hit you, do any aerial to snap him out of it. It's so easy that Falco won't try this often.

That's all I can remember right now.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

For now I'll just say -

-Dair camp
-Tornado is good on a lot of stuff, but not lasers
-Dair ***** Falco, lulz
-Your tilt game is actually not too bad on Falco, just don't be stupid and whiff a smash or grab
-Don't get grabbed. This is hella obvious ~_______~
-You can get tornados but just waiting on the edge if he is recovering mid or low
-If you DO get grabbed at 0%, DI away so he can get as few grabs as possible
-Once I got grabbed at like 40? And he Dthrow -> Jab -> Laser Lock. It was SO sexy, just don't be stupid like me xD
-If you get spiked off the stage while you have a lead after a CG or something, Falco might get desperate and go for another Dair or Bair stagespike gimp. KEEP YOUR COOL ANY TIME YOU GET SPIKED, you might get a free gimp
-Be careful using any aerial besides Dair lol, they leave you pretty vulnerable

Ban FD. This stage is stupid for the MU. Falco can run away and laser camp ALL he wants, and it's dumb. Falcos like BF (see: Nair on platforms and DEHF), but it's not as stupid as FD.

CP Brinstar (I always say this xD) or Rainbow Cruise (free win).

 

[Dr. Tuen]

My favorite match up! To be honest, I actually am up in the air about which stage I dislike playing Falco on more... FD or BF. FD DOES yield a benefit for MK, and that's recovery limitations. Play a really good Falco on BF and see what those platforms do for him... it's intense sometimes.

Dair camping is becoming less and less effective as Falco players get more patient and willing to rack damage solely through occasional laser strikes. Falco players can also take advantage of any obvious rhythmic dair camps by flying up and making you eat a bair. After hitting once, it's back to laser camping while you wonder what to do next...

I think it is possible to take Falco out on the ground, but it's all about baiting and responding as opposed to an actual solid approach. Tilting just outside his tilt range is good. If he tilts first, MK's will hit because his has a hurtbox in it. Nairing about a body length away is OK if the Falco has the tendency to try and mix it up with SH bair. Also, if you find yourself in a situation where you think you're too close (homg chain grab!), simply rolling backwards can sometimes get the Falco to respond with phantasm. If you manage that, tornado/nair.

ALSO! About lasers! A lot of amateur Falco players will consistently high laser to low laser (short hop double laser pattern) and adhere to this pattern even if you dash towards them. So.... When Falco hits the ground, run. MK has enough time to cover a large portion of FD (probably half of BF too) and tornado (or nair) him before the second laser comes out. And since the first laser is over your head.... crisis averted! I personally like nairing just in case this method gets read, tornado commits you too hard for this match up.

Don't get too careless with dsmash though. Falco has a very good response to a shielded dsmash... and that's his fsmash. Yep. Falco can FSMASH a dsmash that is NOT PERFECT SHIELDED. And since his fsmash is pretty friggen huge, don't depend on shield push to save you, unless he's been pushed off the edge. Not enough Falco's respond like this, imo.

If you get dash attacked, shield it a bit longer than you may expect to shield any one particular move because of the Gatling combo. Eating an upsmash is no fun :-/.

That's about all I've got. It's a fun match up, but I personally think it's getting closer and closer to perfectly even as Falco's get better and better. Getting the gimp is just turning into "easier said than done" in this case.

 

[Blacknight99923]

DSMASH
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame 5 front and frame 10 back
IASA frame: 35
Cooldown front: 28
Cooldown back: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun front: 4
Shield stun back: 4
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13
(falco)
F smash +23(OoSD)
Falco's F smash out of shield frames needed for a garunteed hit buffered


OK...............why are you getting hit by F smash after Dsmash lol? both front and back hits have an ADVANTAGE over his F smash.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

DSMASH
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame 5 front and frame 10 back
IASA frame: 35
Cooldown front: 28
Cooldown back: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun front: 4
Shield stun back: 4
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13
(falco)
F smash +23(OoSD)
Falco's F smash out of shield frames needed for a garunteed hit buffered


OK...............why are you getting hit by F smash after Dsmash lol? both front and back hits have an ADVANTAGE over his F smash.

So those advantage numbers mean that Falco has 18 frames to act AFTER DROPPING HIS SHIELD before MK can do anything.

FALCO'S Fsmash:
Total: 49 frames
First hits on frame 16 – 18 at least
Shield hit lag: 5
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -22

You've got just enough frames to get that fsmash in w/o MK having a chance. I don't remember if moves can be buffered out of a shielded hit.

===

But as for the back hit? Yeah, it won't work. You'd need something that hits faster.

 

[Blacknight99923]

So those advantage numbers mean that Falco has 18 frames to act AFTER DROPPING HIS SHIELD before MK can do anything.

FALCO'S Fsmash:
Total: 49 frames
First hits on frame 16 – 18 at least
Shield hit lag: 5
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -22

You've got just enough frames to get that fsmash in w/o MK having a chance. I don't remember if moves can be buffered out of a shielded hit.

===

But as for the back hit? Yeah, it won't work. You'd need something that hits faster.

oops I was thinking of back hit only and with reaction time, frame perfect it might hit on the front but its anything but realistic.

it depends on whether or not it hits frame 18 or 16. if its 16 its technically possible buffered. If its 18 its not
I need to find out whether MK can shield on that last frame or not. A lot of the data either tells you the first frame you can move is or whether its the frame after that. I'll need to clear it up before I can give you an answer


That being said its a bit ridiculous to actually post that as a realistic probability in a match up. Reaction time isn't 0 frames and if your off by just one frame its easily power shielded putting falco in a terrible position. edit misconstruction if this sentence.
unless it hits frame perfectly it will not work in a match

 

[BBQTV]

oh cool this will come in handy

 

[Blacknight99923]

I'm actually working on an entire OoS project for the smash lab that will be released sooner or later (I need to finish it first) if you have any specific questions about whats possible OoS or not you can PM me. However since the project isn't finished it won't be made public until it is and proof read.


But I can tell you that metaknight has 8-10 moves that require less than 11 frames to perfom OoS

 

[Orion*]

You wouldn't. Need zero frame reaction time just 4 plus the shield stun. Anyway a read makes this doable

Also this shoudnt be possible if you space properly because I'm fairly certain falco would have to stutter step

 

[Dr. Tuen]

For one, once you're getting hit by the dsmash, you'll have time to react as it's hitting your shield. Also, if the dsmash has been read but not spot dodged, then you'll be even more prepared.

That said, is it possible to buffer moves after having your shield struck? If yes, then this becomes even more realistic. I got this specific tidbit from M2K a while back (I think it's in the BBR discussion thread for Falco that was released a few weeks ago). He claimed to be able to get it to work consistently.

I also don't think that you'd necessarily need to stutter step. Falco's fsmash is pretty huge.

==

Also,

I'm actually working on an entire OoS project for the smash lab that will be released sooner or later (I need to finish it first) if you have any specific questions about whats possible OoS or not you can PM me. However since the project isn't finished it won't be made public until it is and proof read.


But I can tell you that metaknight has 8-10 moves that require less than 11 frames to perfom OoS

This project sounds awesome.

 

[Blacknight99923]

considering you need it frame perfect its really not probable to do in a match for anyone to really do.
You'd have to predict the Dsmash
let go of your shield right away(this parts where it becomes infeasible)
and then buffer it(which isn't unrealistic)

its just not probable someone won't mess up a single frame . After all a single frame is extremely fast at 1/60 of a second.


while you can make a number of scenarios it will work its just extremely fragile theorycraft for it to happen in a match. If you have any videos of this happening consistently between players I'd like to see them.

Otherwise I'm just going to assume it won't happen

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Shield hitlag makes you wrong.

 

[Orion*]

im talking about the strong hit of fsmash lmao

not that tipper crap that doesnt kill

 

[Dr. Tuen]

considering you need it frame perfect its really not probable to do in a match for anyone to really do.
You'd have to predict the Dsmash
let go of your shield right away(this parts where it becomes infeasible)
and then buffer it(which isn't unrealistic)

its just not probable someone won't mess up a single frame . After all a single frame is extremely fast at 1/60 of a second.


while you can make a number of scenarios it will work its just extremely fragile theorycraft for it to happen in a match. If you have any videos of this happening consistently between players I'd like to see them.

Otherwise I'm just going to assume it won't happen

While you are in hit lag, let go of the shield button ASAP. Buffer appropriately. To be honest, I don't think it'd be that difficult on a technical level. Using bowser's ftilt (hits on frame 10, I used it in an earlier example) would probably be harder because you can't buffer a tilt. :-/

Anyways, I think that more moves need to be buffered out of shield hitlag. I'm going to get my Falco playing friend to work on this next time I see him.

@Orion, that's true. But damage is damage, right? And in high stress situations, spacing sometimes doesn't go the way you want it to, so it could turn into a kill. And definitely will if you perfect shield.

===========================================
===========================================

Edit -

wtf are you talking about I buffer tilts all the time.

Ah, I guess I meant buffering tilts with the c-stick. bein' lazy.

Actually, Falco's ftilt might be a better buffered for this situation (unless you really want a kill :-/)

 

[-LzR-]

wtf are you talking about I buffer tilts all the time.

 

[Orion*]

@Orion, that's true. But damage is damage, right? And in high stress situations, spacing sometimes doesn't go the way you want it to, so it could turn into a kill. And definitely will if you perfect shield.

always assume everyone is playing perfectly in theory talk please lmao

 

[Hype]

-Don't be dumb with your Dair camping. Don't just Jump > Dair > then descend back to where you first Daired > repeat. It's really perdictable and gives them a HUGE window of time to hit you OoS. Mix it up by doing Jump > Dair > immediately Jump > Dair again to block any attempt to jump up and hit you. This is more general than to just falco.

-if you shield the illusion you probably wont be able to punish it so just try to read thier defensive option (spot dodge, roll away, shield, etc)

- if you perdict an illusion try to roll backwards so you're invinsible when they illusion you and you're already where they will end up.

- they can punish your Dsmash with an Usmash, if they don't then they ****ed up.

- they can Usmash your tornado if you do it above the ground (it really isn't THAT hard)

- If you tornado when they are above you make sure so move to the side a bit so they can't Dair though you.

- watch out for their Dair > Grab at low percents.

- don't get into a laser lock. The two gimmicky ways that falcos try to this is Dthrow > jab > laser lock, and Bair your shield on a platform > you miss your tech > laser lock.

-when you get hit up in the air jump do safety because you will get ***** for trying to air dodge through them by:
you air dodge their Uair > another Uair/Bair, or
SH uair > Usmash/Fsmash

SH Nair is not safe if they shield it they can running Usmash you.

 

[Orion*]

SH Nair is not safe if they shield it they can running Usmash you.

they can also just spot dodge it and hit you//Grab you >_>, thank you i forgot to mention this

full hop nair Generally is better in this mu oos, shuttle loop and sh nair can get punished mad hard lol.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Oh jeez, tornado. Forgot about that.

Falco's Bair breaks tornado way better than his dair does. So be wary of that. Tornado can be positioned so that the bair fails, but it's more difficult than it looks. I think it needs to be positioned so that his leg is in one of the side hitboxes of the tornado (so that you out prioritize it).

Usmashing tornado shouldn't work if it's spaced right. Though you shouldn't tornado a grounded Falco anyways (barring a good phantasm read).

always assume everyone is playing perfectly in theory talk please lmao

I do education research. As far as I'm concerned, human stress and reaction is theory. It ends up effecting the percent effectiveness of certain moves at different times of a match... which is dependent on the consistency of the player. Blah blah, words.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Shield hitlag makes you wrong.

unless shield hitlag is more than 10 frames no I'm not.


You have to buffer this frame pefectly, if you can't react before shield hitlag is over then its not going to happen.

Again show me vids or this doesn't happen lol

 

[Orion*]

I do education research. As far as I'm concerned, human stress and reaction is theory. It ends up effecting the percent effectiveness of certain moves at different times of a match... which is dependent on the consistency of the player. Blah blah, words.

human stress and reaction is theory OUTSIDE of the game. i can say oh, dtilt to dash grab with metaknight is a combo because nobody reacts to it and it works like most of the time.

we are talking about frame data, and what is safe and what isnt. all this other bull**** is variables, and youre wasting everyone including your own time by trying to debate if something is Humanly possible or not. the question is, Can it be done. period. end of sentence.

 

[etecoon]

factoring in reaction to your theory isn't accounting for your opponents ability to predict you, no one is playing on sheer reaction, especially vs meta knight who has almost an entire moveset of attacks that come out in 5 frames or less

 

[Luxor]

unless shield hitlag is more than 10 frames no I'm not.


You have to buffer this frame pefectly, if you can't react before shield hitlag is over then its not going to happen.

Again show me vids or this doesn't happen lol

The idea of buffering is that you do the action as soon as (in)humanly possible, AKA FRAME PERFECT. It's easily within the realm of possibility to immediately drop shield after the hit just by not holding shield and buffer Fsmash during the shield drop. Easily. With the shieldhitlag and whatnot, you've got a large frame window to do so.

As for vids, good MKs aren't stupid enough to get Dsmash shielded.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

human stress and reaction is theory OUTSIDE of the game. i can say oh, dtilt to dash grab with metaknight is a combo because nobody reacts to it and it works like most of the time.

we are talking about frame data, and what is safe and what isnt. all this other bull**** is variables, and youre wasting everyone including your own time by trying to debate if something is Humanly possible or not. the question is, Can it be done. period. end of sentence.

True enough.

I was just saying that by the frames this is possible, and prediction (which is something we can depend on if you're good) can assist that. Stress can assist that too, but it's much less dependable.

==

Back on Falco as a character, I hear laser to buffered DACUS is pretty awesome. Can many Falco players do this consistently?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

True enough.

I was just saying that by the frames this is possible, and prediction (which is something we can depend on if you're good) can assist that. Stress can assist that too, but it's much less dependable.

==

Back on Falco as a character, I hear laser to buffered DACUS is pretty awesome. Can many Falco players do this consistently?

At around 90% you can do Dthrow -> BDACUS for a kill if MK doesn't DI up. If he DI's up, then you'll live... but basically Falco is forcing you into positions here. So yeah, it's pretty good.

 

[Kaffei]

MK?? forced into a position? =O

 

[Orion*]

MK?? forced into a position? =O

yeah its pertty gay larry showed me

but you shouldnt die to usmash until like 125 LOL

also, laser laser dacus is pretty easy imo, i can do it like 70% of the time and i barely practiced it so im sure in coming months people will learn it. it just means you cant do greedy options ooswhen you get lasered.

 

[Enzo]

I dont know if this ahs been said before but tornado beats phantasm, SO PUNISH his recovery with it, one the people i play smash with at my house/theirs mains falco and I usually go offstage when Falco is offstage and nado with him in it back to the stage, that will easily give abotu 10-15%ish damage each time he dets offstage

 

[Jem.]

yeah its pertty gay larry showed me

but you shouldnt die to usmash until like 125 LOL

also, laser laser dacus is pretty easy imo, i can do it like 70% of the time and i barely practiced it so im sure in coming months people will learn it. it just means you cant do greedy options ooswhen you get lasered.

Basically Falco can dthrow into bdacus if you di away, and walk/pivot fsmash if you go up and inside, or regrab

its pretty cool :D

 

[Orion*]

well no if you dont airdodge or do something dumb fsmash wont really hit, but he can bair you for the kill or uair if you jump.

so. Most of the time i go up, because it requires a double guess. mixing it up is always good though

 

[Jem.]

well no if you dont airdodge or do something dumb fsmash wont really hit, but he can bair you for the kill or uair if you jump.

so. Most of the time i go up, because it requires a double guess. mixing it up is always good though

a good amount of people will air dodge. but since we're theorycrafting vs top players, ill agree to that.

 

[Orion*]

a good amount of people will air dodge. but since we're theorycrafting vs top players, ill agree to that.

yeah true you can kinda assume a lot of people will just airdodge, i know i used to xD

i wish i knew the hitstun on falcos dthrow so i could pick a punish if they chase wrong but im always to scared to **** w/ it in tourny and thats for the most part the only time i play falcos.

 

[Exdeath]

As for vids, good MKs aren't stupid enough to get Dsmash shielded.

A good Meta Knight doesn't just throw out Dsmash, but to suggest that a shielded Dsmash doesn't happen is ridiculous.