Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[DMG]

I liek Ivan Ooze

He still loses to Mech Zangief

 

[NinjaFoxX]

but they would never Hit Akamaru no matter how wide their attacks!

 

[M@v]

its been said a million times so im not really going to get into it very much, but I disagree with MK being banned.

in fact, bringing a comparison to other games, SF4 vanilla did not ban Sagat, and he was in a situation comparable to Metaknight, except, that Metaknight is broken because he has no character, or stage counterpicks..

Sf4 players also have the benefit of new versions of sf being released very quickly where they actually fix problems. Notice how quick ssf4 came out, and how sagat WASN'T a problem?

So, why the hell is metaknight being banned when you can simply prohibit MK from being able to counterpick at all? Force metaknights to play under a ruleset where he has to CP to a neutral, and problem solved..

Diddy, Snake, Ice Climbers, Falco, and many others will no longer have to win the first match in order to have a chance at winning the set, and have a legitimate chance at winning.

On the contrary, this is exactly one of the reasons he was banned: overcentralization. I know you said it, but we shouldnt have to change so many rules just to fit one character, and yet still have him being so dominant. If you have to make all these rules changes, there's an obvious problem with the character. Besides, the mks that only care about winning will find a way to abuse this rule as well. The majority of anti-mk rules came into play due to a mk abusing a previous rule. If the lgl didn't exist, most (probably all) of mk's even mus would change into easy wins. What's falco going to do against a planking mk? Diddy wouldn't have an easy time either. And in the the current metagame and ruleset, those are the only 2 characters who are generally agreed upon to be even with mk...on neutrals.

If you all are tired of watching M2K win so much, then get better.

Your seriously trying to use this argument? First off, m2k could win with a variety of chracters in my honest opinion, and this ban was on mk, not m2k. In addition, we've had a 3 year metagame that revolved around mk. If you don't know how to fight mk, you generally don't do well. That simple. I think people are competent enough to figure something out after 3 years if it was possible. The best answers that were conjured up were:

A. Go mk yourself to fight mk.

B. Don't lose game one at all costs. Before you say it, going by the unity neutrals, Ps1, lylat, and smashville are all still very good mk stages. The only bad mk stage in the game is FD. And almost every metaknight main knows this, as fd is banned 99% of the time by mks.

C. You need to either have a character who goes even or slightly loses to mk, or an obscure character that most mks wont know how to fight, and meanwhile you've put sweat and tears into the mu.

I especially want to stress B. If you don't win game one, your getting cp'd hard game 3 if the opponent is smart.

 

[Eddie G]

Who let that guy into the debate hall?

 

[Reizilla]

Probably the same people that let you into the BBR and Mav into the URC.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sf4 players also have the benefit of new versions of sf being released very quickly where they actually fix problems. Notice how quick ssf4 came out, and how sagat WASN'T a problem?

I guess two years (and some-odd months) is quick in comparison to the molasses-pace of Smash releases.

Smooth Criminal

 

[M@v]

I guess two years (and some-odd months) is quick in comparison to the molasses-pace of Smash releases.

Smooth Criminal

It really is, but more importantly at least Capcom actually cares enough about its community to fix problems, and Capcom's gotten way faster now, possibly too fast. Look at MvC3. Game just came out this year and they are already almost done with a new version. Probably could of just done umvc3 with a series of patches, but capcom also likes the green bills.

 

[Eddie G]

Probably the same people that let you into the BBR and Mav into the URC.

Can't win 'em all buddy. Life is good.

 

[Reizilla]

It really is, but more importantly at least Capcom actually cares enough about money to realize when the most opportune time to charge people for a slight adjustment on an already existing game is.

Fixed for real talk.

KB, your come-backs are terrible. I would know a thing or two about terrible come-backs.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It really is, but more importantly at least Capcom actually cares enough about its community to fix problems, and Capcom's gotten way faster now, possibly too fast. Look at MvC3. Game just came out this year and they are already almost done with a new version. Probably could of just done umvc3 with a patch, but capcom also likes the green bills.

If Capcom would have stuck to their original plan for MvC3, people would have had to shell out even more green to pay for the DLC. *shrugs.* They're money-grubbers, but meh.

That's neither here nor there, tho'. I was just kind of reaffirming your one point on time, and more importantly, that a lot can happen from point A to point B. That's all.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Eddie G]

I wasn't trying to make a come-back. Life really is good, lol.

 

[Reizilla]

I'm happy for you, bro.

 

[DeliManT0ny]

I'll say this now, banning a character is not only the worst decision the Brawl community could have made, but the main SMASH community is being made fools of by just about everyone else.

Banning MK is ******** for several reasons. Over-centralization is a VERY piss poor argument to banning a character. Go play 3S competitively. You only chose Chun-Li, Yun or Ken for tournament play. In AE it was Yun, Yang or Fei-Long.

MK isn't nearly as bad as Phoenix or ST Akuma or hell even Ivan Ooze. I bet none of you know why ST Akuma is banned, and he is only soft banned in Japan still.

If its for entertainment, I'm sorry, but if I or anyone else is playing in a tournament, I'm playing to win. **** your audience, and stream viewers. If there is cash or a prize on the line, I'm picking the character that will give me the best chance to win.

The Unity ruleset is a joke too. Its just the BBRs' way of controlling how tournaments SHOULD be ran, rather than letting the TO's decide how the format should be set themselves. Having to have an approved ruleset in insulting to intelligent TO's too, some of which have probably ran tournaments too.

You know why MLG won't let you all back in? This kind of garbage. Banning MK just made sure SRK, MLG, hell anywhere else won't take Brawl's community seriously anymore. I hope you all enjoy your dying game, because Nintendo sure isn't going to fix it, and I'm pretty sure hacks aren't going to be taken seriously either.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

^above is a troll.

its funny how even SRK members said the ban was long overdue, but w.e they dont care that much, theyre not part of our community.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...why does everybody keep bringing up that shoddy Power Rangers FG? FFS.

Phoenix isn't that bad, either. Nowhere near as bad as ST Akuma.

Smooth Criminal

 

[DeliManT0ny]

^Above Smooth Criminal is a person who can't respond to someone who made a smart point, and must resort to calling him/her a troll just to prove themselves right. Right?

...why does everybody keep bringing up that shoddy Power Rangers FG? FFS.

Phoenix isn't that bad, either. Nowhere near as bad as ST Akuma.

Smooth Criminal

Ivan Ooze is single handedly the most broken character ever put into a fighting game. Its brought up simply because of Ivan.

You clearly haven't seen or played against Phoenix when she goes dark. She can kill whole teams with relative ease. MK doesn't even have anywhere close to that kind of firepower. Dark Phoenix before Ultimate is probably just below ST Akuma's power.

 

[M@v]

I
The Unity ruleset is a joke too. Its just the BBRs' way of controlling how tournaments SHOULD be ran, rather than letting the TO's decide how the format should be set themselves. Having to have an approved ruleset in insulting to intelligent TO's too, some of which have probably ran tournaments too.

.................................................


And on this note, I'm going to bed.

Can someone care to explain to him that the bbr and urc are different entities, and that the urc is made up entirely of TOs from around the country, etc.,etc.

Its 4am and I really need to go to bed.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

^Above Smooth Criminal is a person who can't respond to someone who made a smart point, and must resort to calling him/her a troll just to prove themselves right. Right?



Ivan Ooze is single handedly the most broken character ever put into a fighting game. Its brought up simply because of Ivan.

You clearly haven't seen or played against Phoenix when she goes dark. She can kill whole teams with relative ease. MK doesn't even have anywhere close to that kind of firepower. Dark Phoenix before Ultimate is probably just below ST Akuma's power.

...you do realize that she doesn't go 10-0 on everybody in the cast and that she doesn't have an air fireball that the game's engine isn't supposed to handle, right?

I don't disagree that she's powerful but to say she's on that level is a bit absurd.

Smooth Criminal

 

[da K.I.D.]

you know what makes me laugh?

When people say stuff like;

Overcentralization shouldnt be a factor in banning a character, look at (insert game here) that has (insert number between 3 and 6 here) viable characters. Those characters didnt get banned.

Of course they didnt, the fact that theres 3 to 6 top tier character IS WHY nobody had to get banned. You dont need to ban chun li in 3rd strike because yun and ken could compete with her. You didnt have to ban yun in AE because at the very least, Yang, Fei, and Viper can hang with him. You cant ban fox in melee because falco and puff exist. the point is that its a stupid comparison to try contrast a game with 5 top level characters, to a game with only 1.


And to piggy back on my man smooth. I could probably make the case that Ivan Oose wasnt even banned in tournaments. Simply based on the fact that that game never had a tournament for it.

 

[Sails]

you know what makes me laugh?

When people say stuff like;

Overcentralization shouldnt be a factor in banning a character, look at (insert game here) that has (insert number between 3 and 6 here) viable characters. Those characters didnt get banned.

Of course they didnt, the fact that theres 3 to 6 top tier character IS WHY nobody had to get banned. You dont need to ban chun li in 3rd strike because yun and ken could compete with her. You didnt have to ban yun in AE because at the very least, Yang, Fei, and Viper can hang with him. You cant ban fox in melee because falco and puff exist. the point is that its a stupid comparison to try contrast a game with 5 top level characters, to a game with only 1.

So much truth that I think I've found a religion to belong to.

 

[DeliManT0ny]

...you do realize that she doesn't go 10-0 on everybody in the cast and doesn't have an air fireball that the game's engine isn't supposed to handle, right?

I don't disagree that she's powerful but to say she's on that level is a bit absurd.

Smooth Criminal

I do, but I was talking about Dark Phoenix, who just blows everybody up sky high for little effort most of the time. Regular Phoenix was absurd too, if only because her H air fireball kept characters like Haggar out safely a lot of the time. The main reason why she was so absurd in the first place was because of LV.3 X-factor combined with everything else she is capable of. She's braindead in Vanilla MvC3. In Ultimate, she is much much slower, and she gets only one action per jump + lowered health.

Trust me, Dark Phoenix is just below ST Akuma's power.

you know what makes me laugh?

When people say stuff like;

Overcentralization shouldnt be a factor in banning a character, look at (insert game here) that has (insert number between 3 and 6 here) viable characters. Those characters didnt get banned.

Of course they didnt, the fact that theres 3 to 6 top tier character IS WHY nobody had to get banned. You dont need to ban chun li in 3rd strike because yun and ken could compete with her. You didnt have to ban yun in AE because at the very least, Yang, Fei, and Viper can hang with him. You cant ban fox in melee because falco and puff exist. the point is that its a stupid comparison to try contrast a game with 5 top level characters, to a game with only 1.

Brawl has 8 top tier characters. 3S has 3. AE has 3. People will ALWAYS flock to the highest tiered character. Stop trying to contradict human instinct.

Oh wait match-ups? Congrats on contradicting yourself. MK has Diddy and Snake for even or even 6-4 matchups. By your logic, MK shouldn't be banned simply because Diddy and Snake exist and can probably beat him.

Slippery slope man, slippery slope.

 

[Reizilla]

Just for the record, Yun and Ken are mentioned with 3S because they're pretty much the only 2 other viable characters, losing 4-6 and 3-7 to Chun, respectively.

 

[John12346]

I have a question, and this is a long shot, but since we're comparing Brawl to other fighting games now... How closely can we compare MK's planking to Akuma's air fireball? I mean... apparently Akuma was banned on the premise that his air fireball was something "the game wasn't designed to handle." Can't we say the same for MK's planking?

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I don't know if this matters, but in the "Ivan Ooze is broken video" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY) you can see a comment with 42 Thumbs up saying:

"Ugh, why didn't they ban Ivan at EVO this year? ***** ***** The top 10 was all Ivans, EXCEPT for #7, which was some ***** Megazord player that got lucky."

(Link: http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=O-g4TqMFemY).

So, that Power Rangers fighting game was in EVO?

I have a question, and this is a long shot, but since we're comparing Brawl to other fighting games now... How closely can we compare MK's planking to Akuma's air fireball? I mean... apparently Akuma was banned on the premise that his air fireball was something "the game wasn't designed to handle." Can't we say the same for MK's planking?

The game wasn't designed to handle planking in general, not only Mk's planking, but planking in general. Game & Watch's planking is just as safe as Mk's planking. Some characters can do "something" against it like Snake, Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch (because their proyectiles can hit below/around the ledge), but, pretty much, the whole cast can't do anything against planking in general.

 

[Reizilla]

Evo has a room for side events. They have tourneys for pretty much every game around, including Brawl.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol I hope youre not really from SRK talking like that.

All it takes to beat DP is one teleport read.

If youre really getting blown up by DP for free like that, then you need to go back to the drawing board. That just you being a terrible player. I mean, you really just tried to use Phoenix vs Haggar as justification as to why Phoenix is OP.

Like, really?

People need to shut the hell up and not pop off at the mouth about things that they clearly have not experienced or done the research on.

This is why you will never see me make a post about relating anything to ST Akuma. Because I know I have no idea wtf im talking about in regards to that topic.

 

[Reizilla]

You make posts about Brawl tho

 

[Cassio]

MK wasnt near as dominating as chun

And MK had nothing comparable to Akumas fireballs at all. This was already discussed, Ill pull the posts in a bit.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Evo has a room for side events. They have tourneys for pretty much every game around, including Brawl.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Spelt]

Rei's posting on here regularly?
Oh my god, this should be good.

Game & Watch's planking is just as safe as Mk's planking. Some characters can do "something" against it like Snake, Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch (because their proyectiles can hit below/around the ledge), but, pretty much, the whole cast can't do anything against planking in general.

This whole paragraph is terribly incorrect.

 

[John12346]

The game wasn't designed to handle planking in general, not only Mk's planking. Game & Watch's planking is just as safe as Mk's planking. Some characters can do "something" against it like Snake, Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch (because their proyectiles can hit below/around the ledge), but, pretty much, the whole cast can't do anything against planking in general.

Well, keep in mind that MK's planking is the only planking that is *technically* untouchable - to the extent that I'm suggesting that Akuma's air fireball granted him such untouchability.

As far as everyone else goes, frame data doesn't lie; it's annoying as crap to beat planking, but it's very beatable if the planker isn't MK...

 

[da K.I.D.]

Brawl has 8 top tier characters. 3S has 3. AE has 3. People will ALWAYS flock to the highest tiered character. Stop trying to contradict human instinct.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306431&highlight=tier+list

If youre just using the specific wording of 'top tier' than Mk doesnt even qualify for that, since hes technically 'God Tier' But if youre talking about the highest tier in the game, than brawl only has one.

Oh wait match-ups? Congrats on contradicting yourself. MK has Diddy and Snake for even or even 6-4 matchups. By your logic, MK shouldn't be banned simply because Diddy and Snake exist and can probably beat him.

Slippery slope man, slippery slope.

based on this, youre clearly either a troll, or just wayyyyyyy out of the loop.

talking about snake and diddy countering mk like this is 2009 or something...

You make posts about Brawl tho

herp herp a derp. youre cute.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

that comment you referenced was also from 2 years ago.

 

[DMG]

It depends on the character, both planking and anti planking. It's not that clear cut.

It's possible for most of the cast to engage in certain anti planking tactics like stealing the edge, but being able to do anything productive from that point is not a guarantee.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

This whole paragraph is terribly incorrect.

English-wise? If so I'm sorry, I probably made a lot of mistakes because of how late it is right now .

If not, what do you mean exactly?

Well, keep in mind that MK's planking is the only planking that is *technically* untouchable - to the extent that I'm suggesting that Akuma's air fireball granted him such untouchability.

As far as everyone else goes, frame data doesn't lie; it's annoying as crap to beat planking, but it's very beatable if the planker isn't MK...

That's true, I forgot about the frame data. John, as you're the master of data: Could you make a quick list of vulnerable frames in MK's, DK's and Game & Watch's planking? I want to see the diference between each of them . (Thanks in advance).

 

[Spelt]

No I meant MK's planking is much more frame tight than the rest of the cast, like John stated.

 

[Reizilla]

If youre just using the specific wording of 'top tier' than Mk doesnt even qualify for that, since hes technically 'God Tier' But if youre talking about the highest tier in the game, than brawl only has one.

See:

Just for the record, Yun and Ken are mentioned with 3S because they're pretty much the only 2 other viable characters, losing 4-6 and 3-7 to Chun, respectively.

Fei Long is also a clean cut above Yun in AE.


Surprised no one's mentioned Sentinel yet (MvC2, obv). Wah wah, two other characters, wah wah. Still needed him on your team, save for a few exceptions.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

that comment you referenced was also from 2 years ago.

True. But you said that the game didn't had tournaments, when it actually had a tournament at EVO.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Just because Fuudo won EVO doesnt automatically make Fei Long a better character, as a matter of fact, reading your post just now is the first time Ive EVER seen ANYONE even attempt to make the claim that there was a character better than Yun in AE

and as far as MvC2 goes, the required team set up was as follow

2 characters out of the top 4 of cable, mag, sent, storm
1 really good assist to back the two of them up. a la, CapCom, Cyc, or Psy or something of the like.

 

[Cassio]

Well, keep in mind that MK's planking is the only planking that is *technically* untouchable - to the extent that I'm suggesting that Akuma's air fireball granted him such untouchability.

As far as everyone else goes, frame data doesn't lie; it's annoying as crap to beat planking, but it's very beatable if the planker isn't MK...

rofl at MK being untouchable. Strategy was overpowered but...no. Anyways, heres the source:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13428357&postcount=8464

Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is 'broken' in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since.

Source

Since Metaknight isn't S^9001 tier, I'm fairly certain that MK isn't even close to ~ten times better than Snake, Falco, Diddy, Marth, Wario, Ice Climbers, etc. The fact that the results at every relevant tourney isn't "so yeah the entire top 32 were MK only players" means that the comparison isn't a viable one.

As far as chun's dominance
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13414573#post13414573

edit, nvm, found a 2008
EVO 2003
1. KO (Yun)
2. Daigo Umehara (Ken)
3. KSK (Alex)
4. Ino (Yun/Makoto)
5. hsien (Ken)
5. Ricky Ortiz (Chun)
7. Mopreme (Ken/Chun)
7. Nuki (Chun)
Overall:
3 Chun
2 Yun
2 Ken
1 Alex
1 Makoto

EVO 2004
1. KO (Yun)
2. Daigo Umehara (Ken)
3. Jwong (Chun)
4. Raoh (Chun)
5. KSK (Alex)
5. Kokujin (Dudley)
7. hsien (Ken)
7. Watts (Ken)
Overall:
3 Ken
2 Chun
1 Yun
1 Alex
1 Dudley

EVO 2005
1. Nuki (Chun)
2. Jwong (Chun)
3. Nitto (Yun)
4. Mester (Yun)
5. Ricky Ortiz (Chun)
5. Kokujin (Dudley)
7. RF (Chun)
7. MOV (Chun)
Overall:
5 Chun
2 Yun
1 Dudley

EVO 2006
1. Nitto (Yun)
2. Issei (Yun)
3. Nuki (Chun)
4. Mester (Yun)
5. PyroLee (Yun)
5. Tokido (Chun/Urien)
7. Amir (Chun)
7. Alex Valle (Ken)
Overall:
4 Yun
3 Chun
1 Ken
1 Urien

EVO 2007
1. Nuki (Chun)
2. Tokido (Chun)
3. Alex Valle (Ken/Ryu)
4. Mike Wakefield (Makoto)
5. Fubarduck (Chun)
5. David Hem (Necro)
7. Ricky Ortiz (Chun)
7. Ed Ma (Ken)
Overall:
4 Chun
2 Ken
1 Ryu
1 Makoto
1 Necro

EVO 2008
1. Nuki (Chun)
2. JWong (Chun)
3. Amir (Chun)
4. Tokido (Chun/Urien)
5. Fubarduck (Chun)
5. JR (Akuma)
7. Prodigal Son (Ken/Yun)
7. Watts (Yun/Ken)
Overall:
5 Chun
2 Yun
2 Ken
1 Urien
1 Akuma

 

[Reizilla]

Just because Fuudo won EVO doesnt automatically make Fei Long a better character, as a matter of fact, reading your post just now is the first time Ive EVER seen ANYONE even attempt to make the claim that there was a character better than Yun in AE

Like you said, you don't know anything about the game. Fei's always been the best character in the game. People say Yun because it's apparently the cool thing to do. If you actually look into it, you'll see that Fei wins the match-up.