Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion 9 | Fox

Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
967
3DS FC
2492-5180-2983
NNID
Katakiri
#1
Welcome to our Fox match-up discussion! :4metaknight:


"Come on!"

Discuss character strengths, weaknesses, ground-game, air-game, and all things "FIRE!" vs Bats here.

Got questions, opinions, or suggestions you want to share about other characters? Head over to the Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory Thread or the Meta Knight Social/General Discussion; we're more than happy to help you.​

Rules shamelessly borrowed from Ffamran (they're great rules!) said:
Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forums.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.03 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.
Frame Data to expand your mind!:
:4metaknight:Hit Frames :4fox:Hit Frames
Jab 6, HYAYAYAYAYAYA, 30 2, 7-8, 18 (Repeating), 3 (End)
Dash Attack 7-11 4-7, 8-15
F-Tilt 6, 12, 17 6-8
U-Tilt 8-10, 8-14, 11-14 3-5, 6-7
D-Tilt 3-4 7-9
Side Smash 24 13-15, 16-18
Up Smash 8, 12, 17 8-9, 10-11
Down Smash 4, 9 6-7
N-Air 6-7, 8-20 4-6, 7-25
F-Air 9, 12, 15 7-8, 13-14, 19-20, 26-27, 32-33
B-Air 7-8, 13-14, 20-21 9-11
U-Air 6 9-10, 12-13
D-Air 4 5-6, 23
Grab 7-8 6-7
Dash Grab 9-10 10-11
Pivot Grab 9-10 11-12
 

Bonk!

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2014
Messages
248
Location
Philly
3DS FC
2638-1531-9991
NNID
IPAVGSSB
#2
Fox is such a tricky mu. From what I'm aware of, Fox has little to no matchups that aren't equal or in his favor. He's also a fast-faller with a funky light weight so it's tricky to land combos with fastfall u-airs without being a little more precise.

Fox's jab is faster than anything in our arsenal and he of course has that rediculous jab cancel. Luckily since we're light-weight and posess multiple jumps we can usually get out it by DI-ing accordingly while mashing jump or even mashing Shuttle Loop. Fox and MK basically share the same approach options with dash attack and grab. He has lasers, but they're of course laggy and have no hitstun so that usually means a free approach if you just ignore them and run at him. If there is one advantage we have over him it's that we have tons of more grab combos than he does. After d-throw into f-air he basically tries to read air dodges with u-smash and u-air. Usually jumping out of the way is gonna be the best option. As far as our combos are concerned we are pretty much set with our superior juggling abilities with u-smash and u-air and baiting air dodges.

I think it's safe to say that we pretty much dominate off stage here. We can stop side b by simply doing a n-air and he tries to recover low with up b then dropping down with a b-air can do the trick. Being aggressive against the side b and up b is really important. We can bully Fox a lot off stage since both of his recovery options are really telegraphed.

Basically from my experience this mu is just us fishing for grabs in the neutral and then off stage shenanigans. Not sure if I've never encountered a pro Fox, but I'd say it's 55:45.

EDIT: And of course I forgot to mention that we have a better dash attack than Fox as far as combos go. Dash attack into Shuttle Loop for the kill is very reliable and easy to land due to Fox being a fastfaller. It is because of this that I'm increasing our advantage from 50:50 to 55:45

ANOTHER EDIT: I forgot that it's important to remember that because Fox is a fast-faller, dash attack into Mach Tornado is a very potent combo at early percents. You can easily net almost 30% just by doing that.
 
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Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
967
3DS FC
2492-5180-2983
NNID
Katakiri
#4
In my experience, MK wins this MU pretty convincingly but you have to play safely. Fox can't just throw out hitboxes like Sheik and expect to get in on MK, everything he does has to be deliberate which can make him a little predictable so take your time and punish. When Fox gets momentum, he doesn't get much off it if we DI properly and land intelligently; 5 mid-air jumps really helps us. On the other hand, Fox has a terrible time regaining his footing if MK gains momentum as MK has an answer for about every option Fox has while landing or getting back to stage. To be honest, the most threatening tools Fox has to close the gap is his jab cancel and early Up-Smash KOs.

However, while on-stage isn't too bad for Fox, off-stage is where the MU really falls apart for Fox. Both Illusion and Fox Fire get beat by the disjointed back-side of MK's N-Air every single time. MK can hop in place with his back to the ledge and cover all of Fox's recovery options. The hopping lets MK quickly fast-fall backwards into N-Air off-stage if Fox goes to side-b the ledge, N-Air in place if Fox opts to Side-B on-stage, and Fox Fire is just a death sentence. The best advice I could give to Fox players is to save your jump and attempt to slide by MK while he's in cooldown or recovering from the first N-Air. Never recover low.


So how does MK play safe in this MU? Respect Fox's options in neutral. If you go into this MU and just throw out moves, a good Fox is going to punish you badly. More than anything, watch out for his Jab! Fox will ruthlessly abuse his jab cancel if they get the chance. Play safe and jump OoS if he's on you. Fox's Dash Attack is pretty solid and, while it's not as hard to punish as MK's, it comes out faster. Fox's fast fall speed makes his short hop aerials land a lot faster than other character's but that doesn't mean they end faster. Fox's aerials have landing lag, not much but it's enough to grab or D-Air OoS or even just Jump if you aren't comfortable D-Airing OoS. I personally opt for D-Air OoS just in case Fox crosses me up. D-Air OoS beats most of Fox's moves on shield and is generally a smart way to drop shield against Fox but don't get predictable with it. Fox's Up-Smash is real solid but he shouldn't be landing it unless we mess up. It's a punish option; if he just throws it out, he should get punished because it has a lot of lag. His D-Air to Up-Smash is a potential combo tho so don't over-commit and shield often when Fox is close. Shield in general is difficult for Fox to deal with since he doesn't get much off his grab and MK can land pretty easily so the juggle opportunities aren't even there. Again, don't get predictable with it but holding shield works really well against Fox as a hungry Fox will try to read a shield drop or roll and you can punish that. A general rule of thumb is that you always want to DI away from Fox. Up-Smash, Throws and follow-ups, D-Air > Up-Smash, Jab Cancel, Up-Air, they're all DI'd by holding away or away+Up. F-Smash, D-Smash, & B-Air are the exceptions (DI up) but they're all more situation then the others.

There's a lot of nasty things MK can do to Fox. At 0%, Dash Attack to Nado is guaranteed for a quick 25+% that also pops Fox into the air long enough for you to chase. Fox can DI away from D-Throw better than any other character, so stop going for D-Throw > Shuttle Loop after about 50~%. F-Throw's a little better but don't get predictable with it. After 50 or 60%, if you get a grab just go for pummel damage into Up-Throw unless you can get him off-stage with F-Throw or B-Throw; off-stage is where MK wins this MU the most so you want Fox off-stage as often as possible. From 40% onward, D-Air forces Fox to tech, jump, or land in knock-down state, read him and punish appropriately. Dash Attack > Shuttle Loop does work as a KO option since Fox is a fast faller, just make sure he didn't DI the Dash Attack properly before you commit to the Shuttle Loop. From the ledge, Fox's get-up attack is really bad so you can D-Tilt and cover half his get up options and the D-Tilt will shove him back off-stage for a potential punish; even on the ledge MK's momentum against Fox doesn't end, I wasn't exaggerating how hard it is for Fox to regain his footing. Side-B is the most threatening ledge option he has so expect it. You can honestly predict the Side-B while you're D-Tilting and run off and N-Air him before the hitbox comes out and after he jumps so he has no jumps off-stage against MK.

But that said, it's very difficult to punish Fox's Side-B on reaction when he has options. If you look at my match against Ksev, I opted for the on-stage punish almost every time. Part of that's just stream jitters/me being ill but a bigger part of that is knowing it's unsafe to go for a N-Air off-stage if he opts to avoid the ledge and recover on-stage or high. MK will have to make predictions for the most part, you can N-Air on reaction to Illusion but placing yourself in the right spot to do so is prediction-based. There's kind of a sweet spot by hovering above the ledge but the high and jump options make me a little hesitant to commit to it.

IMO, this is a solid 60:40 :4metaknight:'s favor. Fox really doesn't win any part of this MU but, aside from the off-stage game, he doesn't struggle too bad. Regaining momentum is also very difficult for Fox but he doesn't give up his footing easily once he has it back. Like I said, you have to play safe or he will win; he's a very solid character.

Katakiri vs Ksev video for those that haven't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt70lVA9tpI
 

srn347

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
108
#9
Ah, I can kind of see that happening (though MK has a ton of options from the air). I usually cape or drill to land as MK, especially the cape (it has definite mindgame possibilities).
 

ItoI6

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
383
Location
Oakland, Cali
#10
i usually dont use uptilt at all because it has no followups and a rising upair is much more rewarding, but empty hop into uptilt is a great way to juggle fox easily if hes above you because he falls so fast and it lingers for a long time. its much more forgiving then upair timing. using grounded upb from dthrow is really important for this matchup, if you always have to jump before your upb it will start not working very early.
 
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warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
#11
Reviving this thread from the depth of hell.

http://www.twitch.tv/landiego/v/30533028?t=1h36m28s

http://www.twitch.tv/landiego/v/30541407?t=1m50s

I think this a good guide on how to play neutral vs Fox, not alot of Dash attacks or F-Smash think he used it once) instead you want to go for fade away SH,Dtilt and SH Fair. You see Ito go for SH Fair which then conditions the Fox user to dash into shield, he then SH away from Fox to make moves such as dash attack, dash grab and Fox Illusion whiff and punish with Dtilt. if the Fox user dashes into shield you can safely poke it with max range Dtilt, this is also why Ito would SH away from Fox so he can re-position himself.

Best OOS option to go for against Fox is FH Dair, its the fastest and it hits infront and behind(more range) MK allowing him to always punish Fox's Dash attack even if he crosses up our shield. For those who struggle with the MU i recommend watching these exhibition matches.
 

IcantWin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
269
Location
CT
#13
I would say it's more 50:50 with fox having a better neutral, he still dies at around 65-70 after up air to shuttle loops on medium-low ceiling. I'll get some games with Light to show it off in the best case scenario for both characters.
 
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