• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion 7 | Rosalina & Luma

Katakiri

LV 20
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
967
NNID
Katakiri
3DS FC
2492-5180-2983
Welcome to our Rosalina & Luma match-up discussion! :4metaknight:


"Umm-hmm!"

Discuss character strengths, weaknesses, ground-game, air-game, and all things Space Princess vs Bats here.

Got questions, opinions, or suggestions you want to share about other characters? Head over to the Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory Thread or the Meta Knight Social/General Discussion; we're more than happy to help you.​

Rules shamelessly borrowed from Ffamran (they're great rules!) said:
Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forums.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.03 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.
Frame Data to expand your mind!:
|:4metaknight:Hit Frames|:rosalina:Hit Frames|
Hit Frames | R & L Combined 1st Hit Frame
Jab | 6, HYAYAYAYAYAYA, 30 | 8-10, 21-23, 35-37 (Repeating), 9-11 (Finish) | 3-4, 20-21, 34-37 (Repeating), 7-11 (Finish) | 3
Dash Attack | 7-11 | 6-9, 17-19 | 5-7 | 5
F-Tilt | 6, 12, 17 | 7-9 | 7-10 | 7
U-Tilt | 8-10, 8-14 | 9-17 | 2, 3-4, 5-9 | 2
D-Tilt | 3-4 | 5-8 | 7-12 | 5
Side Smash | 24 | 16-18 | 16-17 | 16
Up Smash | 8, 12, 17 | 8-16 | 9-11,12-16 | 8
Down Smash | 4, 9 | 6-7, 17-18 | 6-7, 18-19 | 6
N-Air | 6-7, 8-20 | 9-34, 35-46 | 2-5, 25-28 | 2
F-Air | 9, 12, 15 | 11-25, 27-28 | 7-11 | 7
B-Air | 7-8, 13-14, 20-21 | 9-11 | 2-9 | 2
U-Air | 6 | 8-10, 11-21, 22-29 | 9-14 | 8
D-Air | 4 | 17, 18-22, 23-25, 26-32 | 10-13 | 10
Grab | 7-8 | 6-7 | -- | 6
Dash Grab | 9-10 | 8-9 | -- | 8
Pivot Grab | 9-10 | 8-9 | -- | 8
If any of Rosalina & Luma's jab data is wrong, let me know. I'm not 100% sure on how to factor in jab states but I think I got it.
 

ItoI6

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
383
Location
Oakland, Cali
spacing with ftilt and dtilt is pretty bad because you need to be in the middle of luma for the attacks to be in range, and if youre in range luma is always threatening its safe on block jab. she also floats off the ground on her animations so dtilt misses very easily. just stick to dash attack and dash grabs. its kinda hard to get in against rosa because of lumas jab but after like a few tornados/grabs rosa is ready to die, so it feels really in favor of mk hit for hit and its very easy to catch up even when youre far behind.

also rosa dair and uair are unbeatable even with shuttle loop, so you need to be kind of careful during recovery for once. uair chains are also extremely free if luma isnt around. pretty straightforward matchup, id say its a bit in mks favor.
 

Pazx

hoo hah
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
1,590
Location
Canberra, Australia
NNID
Pazx13
Rosalina's kill moves are (in rough order of most to least potent, with Luma) up smash, up air, bair, dair, general gimping, dash attack and rapid jab finisher (Luma + Rage = scary). Bolded indicates that these moves kill off the top. Luma Warp is also somewhere in there but I have little custom experience. When Rosalina and Luma are together uair strings become more difficult so if you find yourself struggling to separate the duo I highly suggest taking them to a stage with a higher ceiling and relying on edgeguarding for your kills. That said, uthrow separates them quite effectively, and Rosalina is a very light character (lighter than MK) so shuttle loop off the top can kill earlier than expected against her.

Force her to recover low and nair in front of the ledge. If she air dodges and then grabs the ledge, shuttle loop immediately to ledge trump her and try to send her further out/catch her double jump to reset the ledge guarding situation. Rosalina offstage without a DJ should be a KO almost all of the time. This is one of the matchups I really want to use MK in so I look forward to seeing what everyone else's thoughts are about it.
 

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
When she has Luma she completely walls us out and negates our usual combos. Luma literally forces us to play differently so we kill it before we even think about Rosalina. We have 3 approach options: ontop of her, dash attack, dash grab.

Now im gonna go over the pros and cons of our approach options

Dash attack
+Safe on shield and extremely rewarding since no matter what Rosalina does it will always hit Luma, roll, spotdodge, shield only thing she can do is jump or stay out of its range.
+Surprisingly good range since his foot extends
+Strong mid range tool
+Combo starter, kill confirm
+Burst like speed

-Luma clanks it with jab alone

Dash grab
+Like falcons
+Up throw being stronger than Kirby and Charizards on the way down so Luma will take more KB and Damage
+Luma can't interrupt our up throw

-After Down Throw Luma can hit you preventing any follow ups to occur
-Same with forward throw
-And back throw as Luma will go towards Rosalina
-Rosalina and Luma will be walling us out with hitboxes so its not safe


Ontop of her
+ http://i.imgur.com/PO0XpkV.gif
+Final hit of Mach Tornado sends Luma away
-Risky to do since she can catch us with a raw Up Smash

Rosalina is tall so frame trapping her is easier than say Pikachu, not to mention her aerial mobility not being that much better than ours(like 1 position ahead of MK) and due to her height its extremely easy to poke her shield with Mach Tornado. Moves such as running Up Smash won't whiff her however since she floats above the ground in her idle animations our Dtilt will whiff. Our ground mobility is much better than hers so she cannot escape from us when she loses Luma, she's also lighter than MK so she dies to our simple bread and butter kill setups like DA to Shuttle Loop at around 90-100 with proper Di with poor DI she can die at 85%(same as Pikachu).

Lighter characters being harder to juggle doesn't concern MK, his uair strings are percent depended so we can carry her near the upper blastzone. Even with say for example rage not allowing us to string uairs, 1 uair sets up Shuttle Loop all the time rage or not. Our Luma killing moves are: Nair,Bair,Dash attack,F-Smash,D-Smash,Drill Rush,Tornado. Bolded are the ones you should use the most, Nair and Bair should be used when Luma gets popped in the air since Luma stays in hitstun until it touches the ground.

When Rosalina is on her own she can still fight back but she's heavily nerfed in damage output,kill power,stage control and range. She still has greater range than us but we have better frame attacks almost across the board, when Luma is knocked off stage it falls very slowly to the blastzone so its approximately 3 extra seconds to the 14seconds(i think) time period of Luma being gone once it hits the blastzone. I recommend staying at mid range but be slightly more aggressive since we are on strict timing, we must get as much damage as possible while Luma is gone and maybe even a kill. Her neutral game is ok, her fair can scoop us off the ground and she can combo reliably off her down throw however she's nowhere near as threatening as diddy,sheik and falcon in the neutral game especially when Luma is gone.We have the edge once Luma is gone there's no doubt in my mind.

Edgeguarding is difficult for on both sides, however MK can cover the ledge with dair forcing her to go above us. Because we have multiple jumps we can mix up our edgeguard attempts. When Rosa has Luma she can effectively limit our recovery options and bully us near the ledge and can pressure us off stage with her presence alone since her Fair is disjointed and has alot of range AND has a long lasting hitbox.

Her Uair is unbeatable, so we must take full advantage of our disadvantage state using our jumps and DC. There's no point in challenging her once she's under you. Her Dair is also the same so it can be difficult to shark her, so its best to stay just outside the range and punish her landing.

When she has Luma she invalidates most of our approaches and normal fighting style so we become predictable, which is why MK must get rid of Luma before anything else. I would not recommend using low ceiling stages unless you're confident in your abilities since she can kill early with Lumas uair, i prefer battlefield as its much easier to kill Luma on that stage and when Luma lands on a platform i can hit it with Nair. This is the best example of a MU that tests your ability to use Tornado because this move is incredible against her.

Its the most straight forward and advantageous MU MK has against the top tiers, I'll say its 60:40 in :4metaknight: favor. slight advantage but considering the amount of characters that get blown away by her i guess its alright.
 
Last edited:

LostinpinK

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
110
Location
France
NNID
Ailkah
Dash grab
+Luma can't interrupt our up throw
-Down throw gets interrupted
-Same with forward throw
-And back throw
-Rosalina and Luma will be walling us out with hitboxes so its not safe
I'm fairly sure that since 1.0.4 on 3DS / Wii U version, Luma can't attack while Rosalina is being thrown, no matter how long the throw takes (like Dthrow). Luma an only attack when we're pummeling, which is why you should always throw Rosalina asap.

Other than that I agree with what you guys said and I'd sum it up this way : she has a better neutral game overall but we destroy her in advantage state and we can reset to neutral when we are in a disadvantage state. Dash attack and dash grab are good enough tools to go from neutral to advantage state.
 

AmishTechnology

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Messages
374
NNID
KIMPHIE
The fun part is when you just apply so much pressure and constantly keep her on the ledge that you're always in a position to instagib her Luma as soon as it respawns lol.

I haven't played in a long time so I'm forgetting a few things. Is drill a guaranteed Luma kill, or does shield/roll beat it? Does Luma have to be lingering a little out of the shield for it to connect if it's not guaranteed? What about for dash attack? I know for a fact that u-throw doesn't always hit Luma because obviously he can be untethered, but even when he is "together", sometimes he is simply too far from Rosalina when grabbed (though in such cases I opt for d-throw unless I think Luma will just instantly n-air me as I chase Rosa). If drill is indeed guaranteed, I think it's worth to use that to instagib Luma and just start the monster pressure on Rosalina. What is she going to punish you with sans-rage below 130%?

Will be fun to try HSD against customs Rosa too.
 

Pazx

hoo hah
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
1,590
Location
Canberra, Australia
NNID
Pazx13
I'm pretty sure that shields straight up don't protect Luma whatsoever, and Luma definitely can't airdodge or anything. I'm not entirely certain on what happens when Rosalina rolls but I don't think Luma has any invincibility.

Luma can't act while Rosalina is in hitstun etc but it CAN act when Rosalina is in helpless from using her up special so be very careful, my last tournament run came to an end because I didn't know that. When the two are together I feel as though it's important just to take what's safe (eg dash attack into stuff rather than long uair strings) for some damage before focusing on getting Luma offstage.
 

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
I'm fairly sure that since 1.0.4 on 3DS / Wii U version, Luma can't attack while Rosalina is being thrown, no matter how long the throw takes (like Dthrow). Luma an only attack when we're pummeling, which is why you should always throw Rosalina asap.

Other than that I agree with what you guys said and I'd sum it up this way : she has a better neutral game overall but we destroy her in advantage state and we can reset to neutral when we are in a disadvantage state. Dash attack and dash grab are good enough tools to go from neutral to advantage state.
From my experience Luma always hits me after doing the throw, i worded it completely wrong. Luma will always prevent us from following up. Will Edit.
 

9Tales

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
128
Location
West Coast, USA
NNID
9Tales_of_Hoenn
Yo, I'm hoping over form the Rosalina boards.

Not sure I know MetaKnight well enough to give a fair input but (even though he's not really in my sig) I do play as him every so often. Although usually I just end up spamming tilts and aerials to try to juggle people and get a shuttle loop kill. But yeah I kind of know MetaKnight and I definitely know Rosalina so I'll try and weigh in on her specifics. I think I agree with most of what being said already though.

@ Pazx Pazx and @ LostinpinK LostinpinK are both right about the specifics of Luma mechanics. Be warned that even though Luma can't attack while Rosalina is in hitstun that's still a pretty short time. The moment Rosalina can do an aerial Luma can too so if you launch Rosalina far you need to instantly do something to get your self away from Luma (or start attacking her) because even novice Rosalina's will do stuff like mash dair while in hitstun in order to punish enemies that just stand next to Luma after launching Rosa.

Reading through @ warionumbah2 warionumbah2 's post I think the only things I don't agree with are the ideas that off stage play is about even, and the end ratio, lol. I actually think off stage is advantage MetaKnight for 3 reasons.
+ Mulit-Jump
+ Significantly faster attacks with short hit boxes that also slow his falling speed means Meta Knight can put out multiple hitboxes and has more freedom to react and bait. On the other hand Rosalina's fair and nair are so long lasting she can only put out 1 before she needs to focus on returning to the stage
+ Shuttle Loop is aggressive enough and fast enough that I doubt even pro Rosalina's would be confident saying they can dair MetaKnight out of it. Like the timing to beat shuttle loop with dair is really tight, On the other hand MetaKnight should have no trouble knocking Rosalina out of Launch Star.
I mean obviously the advantage is to whoever is exercising stage control but I think MetaKnight has more options and mobility to return or guard than Rosalina does.

Kind of a reiteration here but killing Luma is super important in the match up for sure. (I think it's important in all match ups but RosaLuma and SoRo have an especially big gap in this MU) MetaKnight has moderate disjoint which I consider to be an important asset for Luma killing. That said my current perception is that MetaKnight is, at best, "average" at Luma killing in terms of the whole cast. I think his dash attack and Mach Torando are two of his most potent ways to do it. I also would have cited nair which warionumbah2 did. Drill is ok but i feel like it easy to read especially if the MK player has the mind set specifically of using it to KO Luma. Also aside form maybe Drill I don't think any of his attack OHKO Luma from the center of most stages.

One thing I'm curious about is the comment that dash attack is safe on Rosalina's shield. Can some one explain that more to me. I actually feel like Mach Tornado and Dash Attack are both kind of punishable but I also get the feeling I don't play Metaknights who Tornado perfectly.

Lastly don't count this as an official input for now but on instinct I wouldn't have thought this MU is any better than 50:50 for MetaKnight. The only possible reason (for now) that I could see it being better than that is if MK is actually way more potent at KOing Luma than I currently think he is. For now I don't feel like most of his options for getting Luma are actually that safe.
 

AmishTechnology

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Messages
374
NNID
KIMPHIE
Dash attacks can be "safe on shield" because he kicks through them and ends up behind them if he times it late enough.

Tornado certainly is punishable. It's crucial that Rosalina tilts her shield upwards if she gets tornado'd because she has a pretty bad shield for her size, reminds me of Zelda's shield in Melee.

MKs, take note: if you see the Luma star doing the spinning (infinite jab) while Rosalina herself isn't acting, this means she primed that infinite jab from Luma while she was faceplant recovering or something. This means Rosalina herself can't use A attacks until she tells Luma to stop spinning. Don't get mindscrewed because of this.

Keep your eye on Luma when you send Rosalina flying. After her "hitstun" is gone (short timer as aforementioned by someone else), she can prompt it to return to her via an attack, so Luma will be zooming towards Rosalina WHILE AT THE SAME TIME attacking! This is a big part of her defensive game. HOWEVER, if she manually sent out Luma via her default B (Luma Charge, or Luma Warp), Luma will NOT return to her automatically via an aerial/attack until she recalls him again with default B. Chase her freely, or just drill the Luma for a guaranteed death if she ever leaves him hanging like that. Probably won't happen often except in customs, normal Rosalina almost never detaches Luma, especially not against MK.

Educate yourself on Lunar Landing. Right before she lands, she can throw out an aerial and it will autocancel, but the Luma itself will still be doing his aerial attack while Rosalina is free to move, roll, grab, attack, etc. on the ground. Kind of like a desynched Nana. Be mindful of this, don't get baited. An empty short hop or landing Rosalina is almost certain to use a Lunar Landing n-air because Luma lingers and dances around while kicking butt.
 
Last edited:

Katakiri

LV 20
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
967
NNID
Katakiri
3DS FC
2492-5180-2983
Guess I'll just add on to what warionumbah2 said since that covered a large part of the MU.

As long as you throw immediately after grabbing, Luma will enter a panic state where it's flailing its arms and can't do anything. All throws are safe, just don't pummel. D-Throw also hits Luma and knocks it away if you shield grab Rosalina. And if you dash grab, you'll slide away from Luma anyway.

The big factor of this MU is that Rosalina doesn't get a Luma for the majority of the match because MK has numerous and easy ways to off it without missing a beat. Her attack speed without Luma is pretty average and she misses a portion of her damage and reach as well without Luma. At low percent, it's always with trading damage for roughly 16-17 seconds without Luma but playing smart will eventually net you the KO without the risk.

Drill Rush handles Rosalina's edge-guarding traps. It beats Luma on the ledge and we can either bounce off Luma and fast fall to grab ledge, angle ourselves after we hit Luma and bounce off the floor and fast fall to grab ledge, or bounce of Rosalina herself and grab ledge. It puts Luma into its stunned state so Luma won't be a threat when getting off the ledge. High Speed Drill is also pretty decent for recovering in the same fashion and High Speed Drill also gives MK another very easy option to KO Luma at any point.

Piercing Cape makes it much easier to land from a juggle against Rosalina due to its long vertical teleportation range and its decreased ending lag. But choosing that option means it's safe for Rosalina to throw out charged Smash Attacks on ledge. With default Dimensional Cape, MK can get free damage or even a KO if Rosalina dares charge a move or enter her Rapid Jab state.

Know your options when juggling. Her D-Air beats our Up-Air but she's vulnerable from the sides, predict it and B-Air or F-Air. I think Up-Tilt actually out-reaches her D-Air but I'm not sure. Shield Grab on flat stages but it's not likely Rosalina will take you to a flat stage. You can also Up-Smash OoS for the KO. Rosalina has trouble landing against any character so this isn't just something MK's good at.

Off-stage Rosalina should eat quite a bit of damage before coming back, if she comes back. Hang off the ledge and wait for her Up-B. It's slow enough to react to so B-Air or N-Air on-ledge if she recovers low and jump on-stage and chase her for a combo if she recovers high. Hanging off the ledge really gives MK a lot of control so abuse it.

As for stages, Smashville is your best stage. It gives you a landing option on the platform, you can platform camp, and if Rosalina lands on the platform, she has no way of keeping you from Up-Air pressuring her due to her very slow D-Air. Lylat is your next best bet due to the higher ceiling and the horrible ledges making Rosalina's recovery even worse. Lylat is also nice for landing out of juggles via cape due to the platforms allowing you to mix-up where you cape to.

Avoid Town & City, Delfino, and Castle Siege and you should be fine. Battlefield is good for Rosalina but it's great for MK too.
 

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
I actually think off stage is advantage MetaKnight for 3 reasons.
+ Mulit-Jump
+ Significantly faster attacks with short hit boxes that also slow his falling speed means Meta Knight can put out multiple hitboxes and has more freedom to react and bait. On the other hand Rosalina's fair and nair are so long lasting she can only put out 1 before she needs to focus on returning to the stage
+ Shuttle Loop is aggressive enough and fast enough that I doubt even pro Rosalina's would be confident saying they can dair MetaKnight out of it. Like the timing to beat shuttle loop with dair is really tight, On the other hand MetaKnight should have no trouble knocking Rosalina out of Launch Star.
I mean obviously the advantage is to whoever is exercising stage control but I think MetaKnight has more options and mobility to return or guard than Rosalina does.
my b
Drill is ok but i feel like it easy to read especially if the MK player has the mind set specifically of using it to KO Luma.
That can be avoided on reaction, the only thing the Rosa player should do is jump because shielding with Luma near you won't help at all. It comes out on frame 25 its slower than MKs F-smash, this can be used once as a mixup against a mid level Rosa but high level Rosa's can easily react to this move.
Also aside form maybe Drill I don't think any of his attack OHKO Luma from the center of most stages.
I never said it did, but MK can combo Luma and safely keep Rosalina out at the same time. He's considerably faster than her on the ground and D-Smash is the best way to send Luma off while keeping Rosalina out, the KB on the first hit sends Luma pretty far.

There's a reason why i said BF is a good stage, its small and MK sharks much better on this stage. Platforms catch a falling Luma so we can follow up with a nair to kill it.
One thing I'm curious about is the comment that dash attack is safe on Rosalina's shield. Can some one explain that more to me. I actually feel like Mach Tornado and Dash Attack are both kind of punishable but I also get the feeling I don't play Metaknights who Tornado perfectly.
I posted a gif of MK literally demolishing her shield to the point where the last few hits connected, if you drop your shield during the tornado she'll get hit. Dash attack is similar to these guys::4zss::4yoshi::4fox::4lucario: he doesn't stop when he touches a shield, MK will end up behind Rosalina making it harder to punish. you probably played those 4 more than MK so you should get a rough idea on how MKs Dash attack works. But Mks is more potent at hit confirming into combo's or kill moves.
Lastly don't count this as an official input for now but on instinct I wouldn't have thought this MU is any better than 50:50 for MetaKnight. The only possible reason (for now) that I could see it being better than that is if MK is actually way more potent at KOing Luma than I currently think he is. For now I don't feel like most of his options for getting Luma are actually that safe.
Well that's all theorycraft, MKs dash attack and d-smash are safe Luma killing moves. He can kill Rosalina from 90-100 without rage,better off stage game,better disadvantage state,better ground mobility,better frame data. With the tools MK has to cripple Rosalina i cannot see this MU as 50-50.
 
Last edited:

9Tales

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
128
Location
West Coast, USA
NNID
9Tales_of_Hoenn
Dash attack is similar to these guys::4zss::4yoshi::4fox::4lucario: he doesn't stop when he touches a shield, MK will end up behind Rosalina making it harder to punish. you probably played those 4 more than MK so you should get a rough idea on how MKs Dash attack works. But Mks is more potent at hit confirming into combo's or kill moves.
hmm this is interesting. Yoshi's dash attack is absolutely brutal imo. Like seriously one of the worst things in the game for Rosalina to deal with. Perhaps ZSS and Lucario can act out of dash faster that I thought they could though(?) it seems like even when they pass through you you still get to punish them by just pivot down tilting or something. And that's how I thought it was for MetaKnight too. Dash attacks are also just universally good Luma KOing moves for most everyone so I think most Rosalina's are conditioned to try to deal with dash attack approaches with something besides simply shielding it.
(on a side note while Luma does not recive protection from Rosalina's shield she does get invulnerability during side steps)
Well that's all theorycraft, MKs dash attack and d-smash are safe Luma killing moves. He can kill Rosalina from 90-100 without rage,better off stage game,better disadvantage state,better ground mobility,better frame data. With the tools MK has to cripple Rosalina i cannot see this MU as 50-50.
Can't argue with this, I don't think I have enough experience with this matchup to feel confident in a ratio I give, it's literally just my feeling, lol. Also, why is d-smash safe?
 
Last edited:

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
hmm this is interesting. Yoshi's dash attack is absolutely brutal imo. Like seriously one of the worst things in the game for Rosalina to deal with. Perhaps ZSS and Lucario can act out of dash faster that I thought they could though(?) it seems like even when they pass through you you still get to punish them by just pivot down tilting or something. And that's how I thought it was for MetaKnight too. Dash attacks are also just universally good Luma KOing moves for most everyone so I think most Rosalina's are conditioned to try to deal with dash attack approaches with something besides simply shielding it.
(on a side note while Luma does not recive protection from Rosalina's shield she does get invulnerability during side steps)
Lucario's is without a doubt safe i know from experience, ZSS is indeed punishable as she can't act out of it sooner. Lucario and MK have the exact same frame data on their DA so it makes sense. Well MK will be sitting at mid range and waiting for an opportunity, it may seem simple on here but in the game when MK throws a DA you'll tend to do stuff like a spot dodge or shield on reaction. Unlike Lucario MK has the 5th best roll in the game so he'll usually roll away before Rosalina can punish.

The invulnerability must be at least 2 frames since i can frequently KB Luma when i do DA it while Rosalina rolls behind me.
Can't argue with this, I don't think I have enough experience with this matchup to feel confident in a ratio I give, it's literally just my feeling, lol. Also, why is d-smash safe?
Because the 2nd hit comes out on frame 9 which can catch a Rosalina attempting to dash grab or clank Rosalina's DA. Its Mks best move when being sandwiched by Luma and Rosa, Mach tornado being 2nd only because it has low priority and doesn't come out as fast.

I would talk about customs but i have no exp against her, i can only talk about HSD(High Speed Drill) and how its useful against her. HSD auto kills Luma and comes out on 22f as well as traveling much faster than Drill rush, it also beats Star Bit shooter, HSD is not safe on shield but because of Luma it allows MK to continuously push past Rosalina and then do a flip on the last hit making it hard to punish him. The only custom that effects Rosalina is her up b i think, the rest tend to effect Luma.
 

W.A.C.

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
738

Another option we can do to get rid of Luma. Thanks @Dabuz. lol I can't believe this kills Luma. o_O
 
Last edited:

Steelballray

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
311
Location
Saudi Arabia
NNID
Ray-run
3DS FC
1263-8867-0397
Hello. I hope I'm allowed to bump this..

I play vs. The best player in the country a lot and he mains Rosa.

Seeing the way he plays and the tools he used im pretty sure that this match up is not in our favour. I'm basing these thoughts not on him beating me because, well, he's the best and been playing smash for 10 years and this is my first Smash game, but I'm basing it on the tools I see him use.

Dash attack being safe on shield is negated by good spacing for Luma and by option selecting. He option selects up smash every time I try to dash attack his shield and the usmash always hits. Late hit or an early on it matters not.

Getting in is much harder than you guys think. He constantly short hop lunar landings which cover a good amount of space ahead of him without putting himself into any sort of lag, he starbits and Gentlemen while taking mini steps forward which walls you completely from trying anything at all. His attacks with luma outrange MK's tilts and with no range in them for us you have no real hope of spacing them while still hitting a thing.

I played this MU no less than hundreds of times and while yeah I'm not that good but every single option that MK has Rosa has another that nullify it completely.
Rosalina's walling is too much to penetrate for a character with a such a small amount of approaching options.

For Rosalina's boards to say that they lose this match up, I kinda have to assume that they're a bit ignorant of their own tools.

I shall try to post a video of him playing sometime soon. (I shall asap if I find any but a tournament he is attending is going to be held in 10 days so I'll do it then if I dont find none now)

Can you guys tell me of a way to get past these walls of hers? Because if not I can't really see a way that MK beats her.
 
Last edited:

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
Considering the best Rosa's consider this MU horrible kinda negates what you say which seems to be a player(aka player skill gap) problem more than the character.

Dabuz said after paragon that he actually lost alot to tyrant in friendlies until he adopted fallns playstyle which ito had no problem dismantling.

http://www.twitch.tv/landiego/v/15461086?t=57m01s


^^^^
Good example of a Rosalina and MK main knowing the MU.
 

Steelballray

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
311
Location
Saudi Arabia
NNID
Ray-run
3DS FC
1263-8867-0397
I really hate this kind of replies. I mentioned several reasons why I think what I think and all you have to say is Dabuz opinion's about this.

Thanks for the link I guess. The only thing worth the while in that reply.

EDIT: I fully acknowledged the gap in skill. What I talked about were solely the tools.
 
Last edited:

Amadeus9

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
779
Location
Maine
NNID
Amadeuswololo
I really hate this kind of replies. I mentioned several reasons why I think what I think and all you have to say is Dabuz opinion's about this.

Thanks for the link I guess. The only thing worth the while in that reply.

EDIT: I fully acknowledged the gap in skill. What I talked about were solely the tools.
I hate your kind of posts, you go on about your issues beating someone better than you, act superior and combative, and disregard top player opinions on match up because of your inability to grasp the matchup.

Regardless, your goal isn't to get past her wall, you systematically negate its ability to even function. Maybe try killing Luma next time. Reading your post makes it seem like you are completely ignoring Luma in this matchup, and focusing solely on Rosa. If she's shielding your approaches dash attack > nair will kill luma as well just drill rushing through her.
 

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
Welp i hope someone helps u out, just remember that no help here will magically make u beat that Rosa as he's most likely considerably better than u as a player. He will always outplay u.

MU discussions is mainly based of top users going at it and then theory comes intoplay. Your theory of being walled out has been proven to be incorrect as MK does get in and then abuses his absurd advantage state.

Ito is imo the best mk to learn from, watch the match and learn.
 

Steelballray

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
311
Location
Saudi Arabia
NNID
Ray-run
3DS FC
1263-8867-0397
act superior and combative, and disregard top player opinions on match up because of your inability to grasp the matchup.
I didn't act superior. A **** reply is a **** reply. If you wrote up a big post with many points on them you'd expect for them to be addressed or even just ignored. Not replied to with "but so and so thinks differently and so should you" I didn't ignore "top players opinions" I just don't agree with this particular one. I don't assume you agree with everything ZeRo says in his videos either.

Maybe try killing Luma next time. Reading your post makes it seem like you are completely ignoring Luma in this matchup, and focusing solely on Rosa.
Nah, youre just assuming that because im coming out as rude and stuff, pretty natural stuff, since you don't like me you'd assume the worst.
If she's shielding your approaches dash attack > nair will kill luma as well just drill rushing through her.
I admit to not having tried DA> nair but I'm sceptical on it. Drill rush's landing can be punished on reaction.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
Drill Rush catches Luma like 100% of the time. If you need Luma gone like NOW and you are in doubt and you won't die for it, throw it out.

Knowing how to use DA is essential for this MU. DA > Nair is just one of many tools we have for dispatching Luma.
 

Steelballray

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
311
Location
Saudi Arabia
NNID
Ray-run
3DS FC
1263-8867-0397
Drill Rush catches Luma like 100% of the time. If you need Luma gone like NOW and you are in doubt and you won't die for it, throw it out.

Knowing how to use DA is essential for this MU. DA > Nair is just one of many tools we have for dispatching Luma.
Thanks a ton. I will use that instead of going for solo DA next time.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
Thanks a ton. I will use that instead of going for solo DA next time.
This will also help. A great summary from Katakiri from this thread:

http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-r2-meta-knight.414439/#post-20046662


Katakiri said:
HSD is garbage in this MU:
- Luma sometimes gets out it
- Because Luma sometimes gets out of it, you're limited to the range you can do the move at. If you're too close to the ledge and Luma gets out, you can't bounce off Luma so you fall to your death
- The ability to angle default Drill Rush is invaluable for minimizing the window for punishment by aiming yourself to ledge-snap on rebound, land on a platform, or even fall through the platform for a mix-up landing.

HSD is cute for more projectile-based characters like Toon Link and Mega Man but it's a completely unnecessary risk against Rosalina and most other characters.
Shooting Star Bit is beat by jumping with 6 jumps and knocking Luma away with an aerial or tomahawk whatever.

I'm gonna re-post and flesh-out a previous post of mine on the Rosa MU from a couple weeks ago:

For the MKs and maybe few Rosalina that don't know, Luma has Knock-back-based Heavy Armor like Bowser but much weaker. Meta Knight has 8 moves that don't knock away Luma when it's at 0%:
- Grab Pummel
- F-Throw
- B-Throw
- D-Tilt
- N-Air (Knocks Luma away at 4%+)
- Up-Air (Knocks Luma away at 25%+)
- D-Air (Knocks Luma away at 30%+)
- Galaxia Darkness [Final Smash] (All hit-boxes completely ignore Luma dealing no damage LOL)

MK has to actively try to not kill Luma. Even his Up- & Down-throws knock Luma away when he throws Rosa.

With MK's mobility options, he can dance around Rosalina's Jab wall and wrangle them into a position where MK can simply Dash Attack or DA to N-Air to KO Luma because MK's Dash Attack is stupid-safe and even crosses-up on shield. MK's F-Air & B-Air out-range and beats Luma's Jab and knocks Luma away. Additionally, as of a couple patches ago, F-Tilt knocks Luma FAR away making her Jab wall even less safe. Even MK's own Jab can be used to hit an idle Luma and knock it away. If I really want Luma dead and I have no safer options, I can Drill Rush into Luma and drag it with me to KO it from anywhere on the stage even if Rosalina herself shields the move; MK bounces off Luma on the final hit so I can even drag Luma off-stage and still recover via ledge-snap.

I preform well against Rosalina because I don't fear her. If MK messes up and Rosa shields his move, Luma at least gets knocked away so only Rosalina is punishing shielded moves. I could Nado Rosa's shield and, if it doesn't shield-poke, the worst I get punished with is a Solo Rosalina Smash Attack since the last hit of Nado knocks Luma away, and she now has a VERY low shield for MK to take advantage of because shielding a full Nado either shield-pokes or nearly breaks shields. An once it's down to solo Rosalina, she has no good options to keep Meta Knight out with his fast, reactionary play-style.

If Rosa tries to get cute and use Luma Shot to send just Luma out, Rosa has just fed Luma to a shark. I remember that a week ago, one of our local Rosalina threw me off-stage, I barely survived and was in the bubble, he predicted me to recover low so he threw out a fully charged Luma Shot to pressure me as I fell, I air-dodged past the Jabbing Luma then used 2 jumps to B-Air it into the blast-zone before returning to the stage. Obviously not a smart play by the Rosa but it goes to show that even under pressure, Luma doesn't survive in this MU without mama to protect it. Same goes for Rosalina herself tbh.

Effectively, Rosalina doesn't get a Luma for 70% of this MU. Luma gets knocked off-stage by MK far too easily. Rosa will be lucky to have 10 full seconds of consistently having a Luma. Rosa is constantly on the run waiting for Luma to respawn just to have a chance of boxing-out MK and MK is far faster than her. She has almost no options to wall MK out so once Luma's gone, no matter how she chooses to punish me for killing Luma, I'll return that damage five-fold.

Dimensional Cape makes Rosa's Jab & Smashes very unsafe, especially when edge-guarding MK. One wrong button press and "FOOL!:4metaknight:", she's dead. MK can use Dimensional Cape to fake her out with the much safer non-attacking variant of Cape and either condition her not to Jab (literally scaring her from using her best option too often) or use it look for an input before committing to the Slash to punish her. We don't have to press the button for Cape Slash right away so we do have time to watch you movements invisibility before committing. Even if Rosa shields the move, once again, MK only gets punished by Solo Rosalina as Luma likely died from the knock-back from Dimensional Cape Slash. Unless she lands the killing blow on MK because of it, there is no situation in this MU where Rosalina gets a worthwhile trade because every trade, at best, results in Luma being knocked away.

Rosalina is a perfect weight & size that she gets Up-Air chained into the upper blast-zone VERY consistently at stupid-low percents. Even if I don't get the gimp, MK also has very powerful KO moves in F-Smash, Up-Smash, B-Air, Shuttle Loop, and Dimensional Cape so her light weight and size makes it rare to see Rosa live much past 100% against MK and one good Up-Air chain does at least 30~40% and that's not even counting the follow-ups MK can get by abusing Rosalina's floatiness and difficulty with landing. If Rosa loses neutral 3 times without Luma, that's probably her stock.

MK isn't afraid of Rosa in the air either. 5 mid-air jumps and a teleport with decent air speed makes MK very hard for Rosa to KO with Up-Airs. And if Rosa whiffs Up-Air because MK took the risk and FF air dodged, MK falls below her and gets a free Up-Air chain KO off the top.

Rosalina's recovery vs Meta Knight's edge-guarding. Oh boy. MK can either hang off the ledge and react with N-Air, B-Air, or he can Jab at the ledge and deal 10-12% before flinging her back off-stage for a second helping of Jabs or aerials. If she tries to recover high, MK can chase her landing and punish with a move of his choice. I prefer to use Dimensional Cape Slash to punish her landing like that as it will also beat Luma's Jab.

MK's better than Rosalina at KOing off the top on all her counter-picks so it would probably be best to CP MK to BF for the higher ceiling. Castle Siege is probably Rosa's best pick since Luma can't die easily on the 2nd transformation and it has the highest ceiling in the game. Delfino is also good because of its walk-offs saving Luma but the low ceiling can work against Rosa very easily. However, if MK gets two stage bans, Castle Siege and Delfino would be those bans imo.

I think this MU is a solid -2 or 30:70 for Rosalina. I don't think it's quite unwinnable and I strongly believe there are things that either aren't common knowledge or maybe haven't been thought of yet that could swing things a little better for Rosalina. But right now, MK is by definition a CP to Rosalina. MK shuts down a huge portion of Rosalina's toolkit on-stage by either easily defeating/punishing her Jab wall or removing Luma much easier than any other character, he avoids her strong juggle-game entirely with air-speed + multiple jumps, he KOs Rosa off the top as early as 5%, and MK ruins Rosalina off-stage while Rosalina's own ledge-guarding options get her Dimensional Cape Slashed for attempting.

I think that, with MK usage on the rise, Rosalina mains need to consider picking up a secondary for this MU if something isn't figured out for her quickly.
 

FoGxTempest

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
12
Location
Miami, FL
3DS FC
5301-0711-4669
With recent gameplay your MK gods have shown trouble with the mu. Specifically NME Tyrant and Ito. (Idk any other good ones) Im not sure why everyone insists on saying this is a counterpick when CLEARLY its not easy to beat Rosalina.
 

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
Not everyone. Thinks that way and u know it. I love how people pretend ito having a clean win streak on falln never happened , at one point ito never dropped a stock in any of his games. Tyrant doesn't have a rosalina user to practice with like ito but he was beating dabuz before he copied fallns play and he beat falln. Both tyrant and ito weren't on their top form especially ito after void made a shocking comeback even tho he killed him at 30%. MK is not a win button.
 
Last edited:

FoGxTempest

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
12
Location
Miami, FL
3DS FC
5301-0711-4669
Well now im confused on how these mu discussions are made. Who decides on these ratios?
 

AmishTechnology

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Messages
374
NNID
KIMPHIE
Steelballray has a point, it's not enough to just say "you're wrong, so-and-so guys said so", you have to explain to him why he's wrong, otherwise we're being just as of a sheep as the "sheep MK" we like to mock (this matchup is bad because itol/Katakiri/Dabuz said so and they beat each other up <- this is supporting evidence, not an explanation). Amadeus's 2nd paragraph and TECH's quote at least offer some good advice that address Steel's concerns (how to fight the wall of Luma) and "new" perspectives on how to tackle Rosalina & Luma for those of us who are less experienced.
 
Last edited:

Steelballray

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
311
Location
Saudi Arabia
NNID
Ray-run
3DS FC
1263-8867-0397
Eh. That was long ago and whatever.

I played the MU a couple more hundreds of times and I had some stuff wrong and I corrected them. I win way more often now, but I still don't think MK wins this.
I can elaborate on why I think what I think still and the new discoveries if anyone wants.
 

Breakout

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 17, 2015
Messages
14
Location
AR
NNID
Plataypus72
So it's kinda like peach vs Marth in melee.
Only rosa is Marth, and MK as peach
Rosa can wall us out with her better hit boxes with more range.
But if we get in rosa is in trouble, and will take a good amount of percent or one less stock.
Range vs combos
Which forces a hard 50 on both sides we have to work to find a way in to gain an advantage.
Rosa has to work hard on keeping MK out to gain an advantage.
At least that's how I see it.
(Note this is a very genral overview of the match up I agree with what most of you have stated already) :p
 

Amadeus9

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
779
Location
Maine
NNID
Amadeuswololo
So it's kinda like peach vs Marth in melee.
Only rosa is Marth, and MK as peach
Rosa can wall us out with her better hit boxes with more range.
But if we get in rosa is in trouble, and will take a good amount of percent or one less stock.
Range vs combos
Which forces a hard 50 on both sides we have to work to find a way in to gain an advantage.
Rosa has to work hard on keeping MK out to gain an advantage.
At least that's how I see it.
(Note this is a very genral overview of the match up I agree with what most of you have stated already) :p
Not really because mks big strength in this matchup is his ability to break down rosa's wall. Killing you really early is something he has in all matchups.
 

Breakout

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 17, 2015
Messages
14
Location
AR
NNID
Plataypus72
Not really because mks big strength in this matchup is his ability to break down rosa's wall. Killing you really early is something he has in all matchups.
Yes but a good rosa is very hard to get in on especially if they play dubuz style.
They will take note of our options to get in quickly, and avoid them as much as possible.
Yes killing people early is our advantage in every match up that's why I said our goal is to get in and punish thus being our goal in every match up because that's how we win.
 

Amadeus9

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
779
Location
Maine
NNID
Amadeuswololo
The issue is rosa has a harder time keeping luma alive in this matchup than any other matchup. Compound that with killing her at 8%, and you get one hard matchup for rosalina.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
The issue is rosa has a harder time keeping luma alive in this matchup than any other matchup. Compound that with killing her at 8%, and you get one hard matchup for rosalina.
This

Dash attack reliably knocks up luma, and nair or fair/bair will probably kill her at that point.

If she tries to shoot luma out you can meet it with an f-smash and kill luma.
If you can grab her, up-throw will either knock out luma or set up for nair to knock out luma.

And without luma, Rosalina can't wall MK out, and if she can't wall MK out, she'll die at 10%.

Even ignoring the combo, MK edgeguards Rosa really well because of multiple jumps and lasting hitboxes of nair/bair, and if she recovers high onto the stage, you can still kill her with down-b (luma can't protect her from that).
Also If Rosa's in the air, she's so ridiculously floaty that it's really easy to meet her with full hop uair in the endlag of dair or air-dodge, and combo that into uairs/up-b.

It's Rosa's worst matchup, maybe +2/7:3 or slightly better for MK.
 
Last edited:

Poopencio

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Tijuana
I think one very big advantage that MK has over Rosalina is the fact that he can get rid of Luma pretty easily, since he has lots of multihit moves that just knocks Luma off with no problem. MK u-air combo works eassily with Rosa, since she's big, floaty and light, it doesn't seem like Luma can or will help much in the situation since it's very weak against MK specials. MK's good recovery can edge guard Rosalina pretty well but won't exaclty kill her, much more like a percentage option.

Abadango switches to 1.1.5 nerfed MK in Pound 2016 to beat Dabuz, just an example for how in favor MK is in this MU:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa2f2IL7Us8
 
Top Bottom