Meta Knight Match-up Discussion 1 | Sonic

busken

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
677
#1
Week 1: Sonic
Things to be discussed:
  • Character Strengths and Weaknesses
  • How to effectively bait or approach opponent
  • Spacing
  • Off-stage game
  • Effective punishes/combo strings
  • Moves to avoid
  • Counterpicks
  • Overall Matchup Ratio
 
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warionumbah2

Smash Master
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Jun 7, 2012
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Playing KOF XIV
#2
:4sonic:Sonic's Strengths
+ Due to his insane speed he can punish any laggy move at any part of the stage
+ Damage per hit is greater than ours
+ Safe F-Smash probably safer than ours
+ Can cancel his spin dash
+ Kill throw that kills us around 90%
+ Tech chase
+ Better range

:4sonic:Sonic's Weaknesses
- Easily telegraphed recovery
- Spin Dash having lower priority than Brawl
- Bad landing options
- Limited approach options

Bait and Approach
Approaching is dangerous unless Sonic is coming from the air, his Side B during the hop has invincibility frames. Best bait options is to throw out a F-Smash in neutral then quickly throw out Dtilt to stop his attempt to grab(main thing Sonics will do). At low percents the safest approach option is rising Dair then camping above Sonic, make sure to keep just outside of his U-Smash, depending on his action land behind him(Not too close since U-Smash can suck people next to him) then Nado.

There's not much to be said approach wise we shouldn't be approaching at all we must play defensive which will make the match drag, only time we approach is when Sonic is coming from the air. We bait and punish, running into shield is a good bait and makes the Sonic player want to grab you more thus giving you the opportunity to counter attack before he switches up his game plan.

Spacing
The perfect space to be is about half of the stage length, it allows you to react to Spin Dashes and also react to Sonic running in for a grab with Dtilt. So long as you're not close to him its fine because his Side B has invincibility frames, you gotta keep a distance where you're able to physically react because he's so fast. All of Sonic's ground moves(other than U-Smash and D-Smash) have little lag so it'll be hard for us to dash in at every little thing they do.

Off stage game

Despite how one sided our ground options are off stage is a whole different ball game, all our aerials are disjointed so we can beat his Fair if he ever wants to defend himself. If he recovers low then Nair him but don't stop there and don't underestimate the distance his recovery can go, if he comes back nair again make sure he doesn't get back because you'll be right back where you started. If Sonic is coming straight from the bottom we can stage spike with bair, Sonic can spin shot(Down B then flicking C stick) and fly over us but remember his landing options aren't that good so we still have an advantage. Sonic won't even be able to gimp us or anything because our recovery options are so diverse and hard to punish if we remain unpredictable.

Punish and Combo's
We can punish Spin dashes with Nado and Nair, Nado for grounded Spin Dashes but Nair beats out Spin Dashes in the air and even trades with homing attack(if they fully charge it they win the trade). If Sonic Spin Dashes and jumps we can react with OOS Bair, if he jumps and uses spring we can punish his landing with Nado or pretty much anything we want.

For the combo part you can ask @ Katakiri Katakiri since he knows a lot more than i, but my favorite and most damaging combo at mid percents is down throw --> Foxtrot --> Nado. Sonic will most likely air dodge even if they jump i can chase them with Nado in the air and get a few hits on them. Combo's that work on Mario works on Sonic, unlike Mario he lacks a combo breaker like Nair so we just gotta look out for airdodges.

Moves to avoid
*List is based on how frequent they will occur

1.Side B
2.Grab/Back throw
3.Bair/Uair
4.F-Smash
5.U-Smash

Counterpicks
Anything other than FD/Omega stages since it gives him too much room to work with, BF is great because we can string uairs into shuttle loop and stage spike. Sonic does well on every stage but BF gives us a chance to at least be more aggressive.

MU ratio
70:30 in Sonic's favor. This is by far MK worst MU in the game no other character imo breaks 60:40 against him, i'd suggest picking a secondary that does well against Sonic. I'm not gonna say you can win this through sheer hard work and optimism cause that's not how things work, any match is possible but the amount of commitment and on point moves you must execute is too much.

If any other MK mains have experience please provide input.
 
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Katakiri
#3
@ warionumbah2 warionumbah2 did a great job of explaining just about everything you need to know about this MU.

I'm normally the picture of optimism when it comes to Meta Knight in this game but this match-up in particular is nearly unwinnable for MK. Yeah, I said unwinnable and that's not a term I throw out lightly. Right off the bat, I'm going to say that I think this MU is a 30-70 MU at best in Sonic's favor. Thankfully, I don't think any other character comes close to countering MK that hard but I really feel for any MKs that have a good Sonic in their area. (Like I do.)

Don't take that as 'MK loses to fast characters' because it's all about the collective tools Sonic has that gets us. I personally think the Falcon MU is in our favor and the Fox MU is nothing less than even. It's just Sonic.

Fighting Sonic with no ranged options, like MK is forced to, makes the whole MU boil down to how well you punish Sonic, or more specifically how well you can avoid Sonic. As MK, you're goal is to not get hit. You punish and don't even bother with approaching unless it's a punish or a read, just play mid-stage and react because Sonic can Spin Dash and Spin Dash Cancel-to-shield every approach we have on the ground and he ends up neutral or better.

If Sonic gets the stock lead, you probably have already lost. Our KO moves aren't good to throw out against Sonic, even F-Smash gets punished and is generally non-threatening to Sonic anyway since F-Smash just clashes with Spin Dash. He also KOs us with Back-Throw at around 90%.

Air game? On-stage it can work but Sonic's Up-Smash is a KO move that he ducks to charge, is invincible on start-up (like he needs it), and grabs us out of the air. Off-stage is about the only place MK can challenge Sonic but a good Sonic either will recover high and Spin Shot back to the stage to avoid the confrontation or abuse the invincibility of their Up-B. If they recover low, N-Air is, as always, your best friend.

Sorry, I can't be more useful in this discussion but I've never once beaten a Sonic in tournament with MK in the 4 sets (3 different tourneys) I've played; 2 of which I was 3-stocked at one point and the only game I could take off was a close Time Out on Kongo Jungle 64. At this point, I've given up on the MU and picked up :4megaman: (60:40 Sonic MU in MM's favor) as a secondary for next time.
Again, I agree with warionumbah2, the :4metaknight:::4sonic: MU is 30:70 in Sonic's favor. I honestly don't know what else to tell you but pick-up :4megaman:, :4sheik:, :4luigi:, or :rosalina: as a secondary for Sonic.
 

Dogivet

Smash Apprentice
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Dogivet
#4
Just as a disclaimer, I don't really post in these kinds of threads, so sorry if it sounds like a bit of a personal blog.
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Very nicely written Wario as well as Kat, you're both very spot on with this match up.

I feel that fighting Sonic with Meta Knight (if things come down to it) are about respecting Sonic's pressure and range.

My experience with Sonic however is limited, with my first local game against a Sonic last week going 1-2 to him. He did play very back and forth defensive (something similar to what you may see on stream, if you can tolerate it) however did abuse any openings he could find. This was a week ago so my memory is hazy of what exactly happened but aside from that, this is how I felt after that match.

Compared to Meta Knight, Sonic's shield pressure in neutral is very strong within most of his attacks, namely the three spins (Spin, Charge and Dash attack). The problem I find with these three attacks are that shield pressure is enough to shrink Meta Knight's shield enough and hit him regardless of shielding. This is major problem I've found that allows Sonic to play more aggressively against Meta Knight because of his shield:body ratio. Sonic players tend to be more defensive and opt for openings with his speed, but an aggressive Sonic in neutral is much more scary.
Rephrasing what Kat said, avoiding is key when attempting to punish Sonic, instead of attempting a straight up punish.

In addition to that, Sonic has a few attacks that are much more range friendly than Meta Knight's.
Namely f-tilt, u-tilt (though rarely used) and u-smash being both anti-air attacks, u-air, and the bane of challenging Sonic up close (in my opinion), his f-smash. I've found to have much better range that Meta Knight's arsenal of main attacks but moreover, the movement of Sonic's animation during some of these attacks outright cause Meta Knight to miss.
From experience, Meta Knights d-tilt are beaten by Sonic's f-tilt and jab due to range and position of Sonic's hurt boxes. This can also be seen in his f-smash where he draws back for the wind up punch, causing attacks with precise hit boxes, such as Meta Knight's, to miss and take a full punish.

I feel that everything else I could type has been already pointed out, I may edit if I can remember something else.
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Off topic: Just wanted to say Hi, been lurking around this part of the board when I joined up, but seemed a little bit dead back then. Really good that this character board looks a bit more lively now in the past, so I felt like it was a good time to try chip in.
 
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Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
Location
Florida
#5
@ warionumbah2 warionumbah2 did a great job of explaining just about everything you need to know about this MU.

I'm normally the picture of optimism when it comes to Meta Knight in this game but this match-up in particular is nearly unwinnable for MK. Yeah, I said unwinnable and that's not a term I throw out lightly. Right off the bat, I'm going to say that I think this MU is a 30-70 MU at best in Sonic's favor. Thankfully, I don't think any other character comes close to countering MK that hard but I really feel for any MKs that have a good Sonic in their area. (Like I do.)

Don't take that as 'MK loses to fast characters' because it's all about the collective tools Sonic has that gets us. I personally think the Falcon MU is in our favor and the Fox MU is nothing less than even. It's just Sonic.

Fighting Sonic with no ranged options, like MK is forced to, makes the whole MU boil down to how well you punish Sonic, or more specifically how well you can avoid Sonic. As MK, you're goal is to not get hit. You punish and don't even bother with approaching unless it's a punish or a read, just play mid-stage and react because Sonic can Spin Dash and Spin Dash Cancel-to-shield every approach we have on the ground and he ends up neutral or better.

If Sonic gets the stock lead, you probably have already lost. Our KO moves aren't good to throw out against Sonic, even F-Smash gets punished and is generally non-threatening to Sonic anyway since F-Smash just clashes with Spin Dash. He also KOs us with Back-Throw at around 90%.

Air game? On-stage it can work but Sonic's Up-Smash is a KO move that he ducks to charge, is invincible on start-up (like he needs it), and grabs us out of the air. Off-stage is about the only place MK can challenge Sonic but a good Sonic either will recover high and Spin Shot back to the stage to avoid the confrontation or abuse the invincibility of their Up-B. If they recover low, N-Air is, as always, your best friend.

Sorry, I can't be more useful in this discussion but I've never once beaten a Sonic in tournament with MK in the 4 sets (3 different tourneys) I've played; 2 of which I was 3-stocked at one point and the only game I could take off was a close Time Out on Kongo Jungle 64. At this point, I've given up on the MU and picked up :4megaman: (60:40 Sonic MU in MM's favor) as a secondary for next time.
Again, I agree with warionumbah2, the :4metaknight:::4sonic: MU is 30:70 in Sonic's favor. I honestly don't know what else to tell you but pick-up :4megaman:, :4sheik:, :4luigi:, or :rosalina: as a secondary for Sonic.
I've been putting more time into MK and while I do understand your frustration with Sonic, I doubt that MK has any 3:7 MUs. The reason that the match-up is bad is because the Sonic can time you out once they get the lead and MK can't really approach Sonic very well. What MK can do, though, is turtle Sonic better than almost every member of the cast. Dash grab/dash attack allow MK to punish Sonic's tilts and those in combination with Dtilt and Dair allow him to keep out dash-ins.

The main problem comes with spin dash: I don't believe that MK really has a direct answer to it, as it out-trades or clashes with MK's grounded move set. Technically, his aerials should beat it cleanly, but the risk/reward for landing anything but the first hits of Bair is discouraging. On the other hand, MK also has some of the most vertical range in the game in Up-B, which is bolstered by his fast ground speed and dash attack -- a very safe punish option should they continue spin dash on the ground. On top of these, Down B can cover both of these options and is useful to close out the stock (most of Sonic's easy MUs can't kill him because they must punish his spin dash with non-kill moves).

Generally you want Sonic to be in the air on-stage, as MK can juggle Sonic just as well as most of the cast, if not edge guard him. If Sonic tries to recover high then be there so that you can prevent him homing by air dodging and hitting his spin dash. If he grabs the ledge then you have a ledge trump and tornado/cape 50/50 that either does 7+damage and resets the situation or 15+damage and a possible kill. This is also a spot to use Fsmash, as you can space and time it so that you'll beat spin dash onto the stage instead of clashing and either out-trade or hit everything but ledge roll. If Sonic recovers low then keep an eye out for him being sloppy and try to time a Dair to catch his ledge grab frame (it recovers fast enough to still use the 50/50 that I mentioned above).

As a side note, I believe that MK beats Falcon if you use your combos to put Falcon off-stage instead of juggle/damage rack and then take his stock.
 

NextPain

Smash Cadet
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#6
I find vsing Sonic really easy when they try to approach me I mash B and he gets caught in the tornado, although this may be different for everyone else
 

W.A.C.

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
738
#7
One trick worth mentioning is that Meta Knight's jab out-prioritizes sonic's spindash, which halts his momentum and gives you decent damage. Good thing Meta Knight has disjointed hitboxes, or else this matchup would be an absolute nightmare. Also, while I usually use Shieldbreaker Drill, I feel that drill is definitely not your best drill option against Sonic because he's so damn fast and doesn't need to shield as much as most characters.
 
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AmishTechnology

Smash Journeyman
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KIMPHIE
#8
Does it? I remember trying to jab Sonic's spin approaches, and it was a bad idea for some reason. This was so long ago, I haven't bothered using jab since. I know f-smash clanks with one of the spins, so I don't even bother with f-tilting either.
 

srn347

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
108
#9
Most (if not all) of sonic's attacks that telegraph by going into ball form are beaten by MK's drill rush, and I've found that with proper spacing this option builds up a ton of damage on sonic as several of his attacks telegraph by him going into ball form.
 

ItoI6

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
383
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Oakland, Cali
#10
dont use drill rush...theyll just cancel side b with shield and punish you.

if you wanna punish spin dash you can run backward and shorthop when you see him release it and the back hit of nair should beat it out. the front hit trades or loses. when hes charging spin dash in neutral i usually just walk up and then randomly dash backwards and shorthop hoping to catch him lol its pretty stupid. one important thing you need to know about sonic cancelling his sideb with shield, is that he can only cancel if he is still moving backward while in the middle of charging side b. when side b is fully charged he will stop sliding backward and is then forced to release it. at that point you can just tornado against spindash and beat it every time.

if he absolutely wont bite and refuses to release spindash, you need to keep at a distance where you can put some pressure on him when you expect him to shield to cancel it.

once you force him to actually release spindash the matchup isnt that bad tbh. the way every character without a projectile should play vs sonic is to force him to release spin dash, shield it, then run after him and punish his landing. mk dash attacking his landing beats everything pretty much.

spindash isnt totally risk free like i had once thought but it requires a different way of playing i think
 

New_Dumal

Smash Lord
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Feb 4, 2012
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NewTouchdown
#11
Hi, since it's a long time since we discussed the MU, there are new info that is valuable to this ?

I feel that after the 1.1.5, this MU became even worse, being probably in the group of worst MK matchups.
Still, I will play against someone who are not quite experienced on this soon (brackets of the tourney already were released, tourney next week) and while I'm thinking in go Sheik at game1, I would preffer to counterpick to MK+DreamLand if needed.
What tools Sonic has against tree camping in Duck Hunt ? What is the best option now to punish the spin dash approach ?
What we should not do at any cost against Sonic ? Is possible to ladder them to death yet ?
I know there's a lot of question, and I'm theorycrafting and watching videos to prepare, but if anyone have a great experience with this MU and would want to help me out, I'll be grateful to read.
 
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