• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Meta Knight 3.5 General Discussion

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
2,740
Location
Illinois
Meta Knight 3.5

DMG = Damage

KB = Knockback

KBG = Knockback Growth. This value determines how quickly a hitbox's KB scales with the opponents percent. Damage is also a major factor in determining scaling.

BKB = Base Knockback. This amount of KB is added to the end result of the knockback formula and is most noticeable a low percents.

WDSK = Weight Dependent Set Knockback. As the name impies, this is a type of KB that is set and does not scale with percent, and instead has a set amount that varies only based on the opponents weight. KBG in this instance is used as a multiplier, but is usually set at 100.

IASA = Interruptible As Soon As. This is a long-standing term in competitive Smash that refers to the first frame that a character can interrupt an attack, often before the full animation has completed visually. Generally this will be used to describe endlag increases and decreases.

Hitlag = The amount of freeze frames a character goes into when hit by a hitbox. This term will usually be used to describe a multiplier that increases or decreases the amount of hitlag that a hitbox would normally induce.

SDI = Smash DI, the ability for a player to move around while in Hitlag based on control stick input. This term will usually be used to describe a multiplier that increases or decreases the effectiveness of SDIing an attack.

Angle/Trajectory = This describes the angle at which an opponent is sent flying after being hit by a hitbox. 90 is straight up, while 0 is a purely horizontal trajectory.
361 angle = This angle is used throughout the game as a dynamic replacement to what would otherwise be 45, the go-to "horizontal attack" angle. This angle starts off sending further horizontally than 45 at lower KBs, but quickly scales up to 45 in-game. For all intents and purposes you can imagine the trajectory as simply being 45.

Tilts
  • Forward Tilt
    • FTilt 1 IASA increased from 21 to 24
    • FTilt 2 IASA increased from 24 to 28
    • FTilt 3 IASA increased from 29 to 35
    • 1 -> 2 -> 3 sequence speed is unaffected
  • Down Tilt
    • IASA increased from 19 to 22

Smashes
  • Forward Smash
    • Inner hitbox removed
    • Body hitbox size reduced
    • Body hitbox moved outwards
    • Z-offset increased
    • IASA increased from 40 to 46
  • Up Smash
    • BKB lowered from 62 to 40
    • KBG increased from 154 to 185
    • 1st and 2nd hits SDI multiplier increased from 0.5x to 0.8x
    • 1st and 2nd hits hitlag multiplier increased from 0.75x to 1x

Aerials
  • Neutral Aerial
    • Hitboxes terminate on frame 30 from 32
    • Lingering hitboxes diminish in size
    • Middle hitbox duration lowered from 21 to 9
    • Middle hitbox damage increased from 8 to 9
    • Middle hitbox BKB increased from 0 to 15, KBG increased from 80 to 100
    • Sourspot hitbox duration increased from 5 to 14
    • Sourspot base knockback increased from 0 to 10
    • Sourspot outer sword hitbox removed
  • Forward Aerial
    • 1st hit SDI multiplier increased from 0.6x to 1x
    • 2nd hit SDI multiplier increased from 0.8x to 1x
    • 1st and 2nd hits changed from 50/79/110/25 BKB to 115 WDSK
    • 1st and 2nd hits KBG increased from 0 to 30
    • 1st and 2nd hits first hitbox angle changed from 80 to 361
    • 1st and 2nd hits last hitbox angle changed from 280 to 285
    • 1st and 2nd hits outer hitbox size reduced
  • Up Aerial
    • Damage increased from 6 to 8, KBG compensated
    • Hitlag multiplier lowered from 1.4x to 1x
  • Down Aerial
    • Divekick replaced with a Brawl-inspired Down Aerial
    • Hits frame 6-7 as opposed to 4-5
    • IASA at 34 as opposed to 24
    • Inside hitboxes send at an angle of 40 as opposed to 35
    • Inside hitboxes deal 9 damage as opposed to 7
    • Inside hitboxes BKB reduced from 30 to 15
    • Outside hitboxes send at an angle of 55 as opposed to 23
    • Outside hitboxes deal 6 damage as opposed to 9
    • Hitbox size reduced from Brawl
    • 8 frames of L-Cancelled landing lag

Grabs
  • Standing Grab range reduced
  • Dash Grab total TransN movement distance decreased 25%
  • Turn grab box changed to match animation

Throws
  • Down Throw
    • BKB lowered from 60 to 30
    • KBG increased from 110 to 200
    • Damage increased from 8 to 9
    • IASA increased from 66 to 73

Specials
  • Neutral B (Tornado)
    • Final hit angle changed from 361 to 90
    • No longer passes current frame from air to ground on landing, now goes into special fall for 30 frames
    • Aerial ending has reduced drift control and more horizontal air resistance
    • Aerial BKB and KBG values now match grounded Tornado
  • Side B (Drill Rush)
    • Outer hitboxes moved back onto hand
  • Up Special (Shuttle Loop)
    • Sweetspot angle changed from 80 to 75
    • BKB changed from 90 to 85
    • No longer edge cancels, instead transitions into a non-driftable/interruptable flip animation
    • Removed late flub hit from grounded Shuttle Loop
    • Aerial Shuttle Loop now only hits for the first 9 frames
    • Glide now has a max duration of 80 frames
    • Glide after first aerial usage now exits into special fall after 8 frames, refreshed by landing on the ground or ledge
    • Glide maximum upwards angle reduced from 80 to 45
    • Glide Aerial hitlag lowered from 1.5x to 1x
    • Glide Aerial landing lag and special fall landing lag is increased from 18 frames to 30 frames
    • Glide cancel special fall landing lag reduced from 30 frames to 15 frames
  • -Down Special (Dimensional Cape)
    • Now goes into special fall
    • Fixed a bug that enabled aerial Dimensional Cape to refresh jumps/Dimensional Cape usage by quickly touching the ground
    • Fixed ability to infinite Dimensional Cape by quickly alternating between ground and air states
    • Minimum start-up for instant Dimensional Cape slash is now 11 from 7
    • Can use any attack button for instant Dimensional Cape slash
    • Can no longer control Dimensional Cape during the ending animation

Others
  • SDI multiplier on looping jab hitboxes increased from 0.8x to 1x
  • Dash Attack
    • Endlag increased from 15 to 16
    • Active frames reduced from 4-20 to 4-15
  • Model size increased from 0.94x to 1.00x.
  • Fixed a bug that prevented Meta Knight from holding down to go through platforms with his multi-jumps
  • Reduced number of aerial multi-jumps from 4 to 3
  • 1st aerial multi-jump height increased from 2.33 units to 2.4 units
  • 2nd aerial multi-jump height increased from 2.24 units to 2.3 units
  • 3rd aerial multi-jump height increased from 2.15 units to 2.2 units
  • No longer has a 4th earial jump.

Pre-release "leaked" info:
Yeah MK's changing quite a bit... hope ya'll are ready!
I'll say one thing. Dthrow.
Projectmgame.com said:
"Lastly, Down Aerial has been tweaked to have a higher knockback angle and more end lag...it won't be as useful as Neutral Aerial for edgeguarding opponents, but its still a great tool for controlling the space below him!"

"Shuttle Loop will now only go into a glide once per airstate, however...choose your recovery options carefully!"
 
Last edited:

GFooChombey

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
595
NNID
GFooChombey
Does this mean that his PM down air is changed, or that they reverted it to vBrawl and tweaked it?
 
Last edited:

GFooChombey

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
595
NNID
GFooChombey
I also wondered that. But I believe it is reverted to vBrawl and tweaked.
That's very disappointing if so. That down air was one of my favorite little things coming from a non-meta knight main. It comes straight from his games.
 

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
2,740
Location
Illinois
I really liked his divekick d-air, but I'm looking forward to seeing what can be done with this new d-air.

RIP suicide kill swag
 

Brikmaethor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 16, 2012
Messages
31
I'm really looking forward to relearning my boy Meta Knight. I took a break from PM to focus on Melee over the past two months, so not only do I have stronger fundamentals, I'll also be able to approach 3.5 with a fresh mind. It's going to be awesome.

Everything that I've heard so far sounds like a step in the right direction. I will miss the old Dair terribly, but having a modified Brawl Dair should be pretty cool too. Dthrow changing to be less silly is good as well. I was expecting total removal of the glide, but limiting it to one use per airtime is a fairly elegant solution as well. 3.5 is going to be siiick.
 

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
2,740
Location
Illinois
In addition to changing d-throw, I hope they made some adjustments to his other throws to make them a more enticing option.
 

AlmightySo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
98
Location
Harlem
3.5 will not be released at midnight tonight, or anywhere in the frame of time. Please get some sleep tonight and look forward to the release tomorrow! - Project m facebook page.
:[
 

MegaAmoonguss

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
193
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
NNID
MegaAmoonguss
3DS FC
2251-4929-9404
One thing I'm wondering is how the "no glide if you try to shuttle loop again" thing will work. It sounds to me as if you can still use the up-b, just you'll immediately go into freefall after. I'm interested to see if this can still be a viable option.

I kind of like that nerf to be honest, I thought they would do something along the lines of what they did to it in Smash 4, and I like this a lot better than getting rid of it entirely.
 

Kappy

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
711
Location
Illinois
NNID
SwagTrain
3DS FC
2964-9085-1107
From what I've played of it (and this is not from final release, but from word of mouth from friends on dev team who playtest and myself playtesting very recent builds before release) and because 3.5 is out and I can finally say this stuff without gettihng bopped for it.

NOTE: don't take everything as legit - plz test to confirm, but this is a good list to test for. I'll definitely be confirming this stuff once I get my hands on 3.5.

- Dthrow has at least .5 seconds of lag added to it. Dthrow -> Down B (or even Nair/Fair) are basically impossible at lower percents. Heavier characters don't go into prat fall at low percents (Fox can almost USmash out of Dthrow at 0% as far as I know). All other throws are unchanged (which means it's time for Fthrow!)

- Dair is now Brawl Dair but way weaker. Sorry kiddies, dive kick is gone. Brawl Dair also has endlag similar to Marth Dair. It's not free by any means, but you can do some really sick stuff. Uair x 3 -> Dair x2 is something I've already conceptualized.

- I'm hearing MK can only glide once out of Shuttle Loop in the air.

- Down B in the air goes into free fall. Yes, no more attacking out of Down B in the air. I have NO idea what happens when doing it off the ground.

- Glide attack and Tornado now make MK bounce upon hitting the ground (basically more landing lag but with visual flair)

- Grounded Up B, when hitting the platform (such as the top on dreamland) will allow MK to slide across it, but MK does a backflip after falling off the platform (this may only apply to sliding off after aerial Up B, that needs testing). As far as I know, Grounded Up B now also slides on top platform of Battlefield.

- IDC is not exactly instant. If you hit Down B and flick the controller trying to be insanely quick, it doesn't register. You have to wait a few frames. This is something IDC-heavy MK players (like myself) will notice. I'm hoping through testing that this didn't make it in, but when I was playing it was there.

- MK has one less jump.

- Due to the new ledge mechanics, MK can now not sweet spot under the ledge with Side B. He must be very close to the ledge (meaning it's much less safe than before).

I think that's everything that should be tested for. Everything else feels the same. LOL. Hope this gives you guys some stuff to test out. I love the new MK :)
 
Last edited:

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
2,740
Location
Illinois
i'm drunk but this all looks like big nerfs. someone explain the buffs in simple terms pls
 
Last edited:

Megapants

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
119
Location
Pasadena, Southern California
nerf: both grounded and aerial down B go into free fall, so only the cape slash is available. no aerial followups after the cape now.

kappy, my experience with the drill is that you can sweet spot the ledge with side B but only if you have enough distance and if you angle it upwards slightly. you can't just ram into the ledge and it auto grabs like it used to. you either have the the right spacing from far off stage or you use it closer and can only go onto stage. if you guys have played any luigi it feels similarly to his side-b sweetspot.

as someone who didn't play much brawl, i really like his new dair. i don't have any frame of reference for the vbrawl dair and i'm not even gonna talk about the divekick since i think the swiping move is much better. the divekick was fun but this move really caters to MK's strengths imo. He already had a really good air presence and now he can cover way more options and can mix up his aerial game is way more ambigious now. dair is probably strongest as a defensive option - SHFFL dair seems like a strong oos choice. i think staying at full jump height is going to be my go to bait/scouting strategy in neutral game for now because of how good this move is. you can just stay in the air and dair or nair on reaction to any approach attempts from the ground.

and this is coming from someone who played MK as a highly grounded character, more like marth/sheik; i focused a lot on grabs and shffl nair approaches, pivot fsmashes and running dsmash. this part of his game seems virtually unchanged so i plan on trying to combine the two styles as i go along.

i think MK is still relatively as good as before and with characters like mewtwo and diddy getting nerfed way harder, i predict mk is going to see a lot of popularity with this patch, for better or for worse.
 

MegaAmoonguss

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
193
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
NNID
MegaAmoonguss
3DS FC
2251-4929-9404
One thing that really aggravates me when playing 3.5 MK is the whole free fall out of down-b mechanic. I loved how they changed it from Brawl and it was awesome for mixups and just made down-b such a fun move to use. But now you can't even "tomahawk" with it anymore, and that really bugs me. I don't think that needed to be nerfed personally.

And then there's the IDC frame startup difference. You used to be able to input a direction on the C-Stick frame 7 of down-b and IDC on frame 13. Now you can input the C-Stick on frame 11 and IDC on what I'm guessing is frame 17. As someone who uses IDC a LOT, this has been surprisingly annoying. I've missed like half of my IDCs from my short time playing so far, and it really makes it hard to use it in the same ways as you could before because of the speed change. It's definitely a nerf that needed to be made, but it's one that I'm finding myself to hate a lot more than I thought.

Has MK got any buffs in this version? I didn't read through the entire changelog, but to me it looks like he didn't. I need something new to exploit lol
 

Pizzarand

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 12, 2014
Messages
5
IMO Meta Knight has been hit hard by 3.5
Freefall after cape, no ledgecancel loop + worse glide and three jumos instead of two, all of this nerfed his recovery alot and limited his options in general. But I',m okay with this. The PMBR wanted to change the ridicioulous recoveries of the cast and if they changed other characters too this change isn't that bad, although it limits edgeguarding.
There are however some changes that are a little unwarranted. 3 frames longer dtilit is not so bad, but the change to his fair from set KB to weight dependent KB seems harsh. I didn't test this but it seems the first two hits are now useless for comboing and as the 3rd hit was afaik unchanged and garbage this whole move doesn't seem to have uses besides spacing. These are some unfortunate nerfs, but I'd be fine if this was all they changed. But they didn't stop there:
Not only did they nerf MK's grab range, they also changed his most usefull throw so that you cann't really get anything of it. This removes one of his strenghts, his potent grab game, and makes blocking aginst him more viable.
These changes in turn with his new dair make him a more defensive character, who relies more on spacing and is overall less agressive and less good. As he is now, I don't see him higher than low-mid tier.

But hey, at least we got +2% on upair and usmash kills earlier now.
 

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
Wait you can't ledgecancel the loop so I slide off and then have jumpss and specials?

My 3.5 download needs to hurry up lol
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
The suicide Dair is probably the happiest change I can think of. The concept of the move was cool, but got way too useful in areas it was not supposed to be. We'll see how good his new/Brawl Dair is, but design wise I think it was a huge positive step to completely forgo that dive and try something else. Now if Brawl/this Dair ends up being busted, you can easily tweak more things about it in speed, knockback, range, etc.
 
Last edited:

ScaryPixel

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
50
Location
Batcave
Dair changes, meh. I'm not thrilled because I'll miss the drill that pierced hell, but I'll stay open minded and figure out its uses.

Tilt/Smash nerfs, blegh. And nothing to make up for any of it either. Oh well.

Glide changes, ****. I'm really going to miss flying to the top of the screen and gliding along stage walls. :/

But what I really don't understand is why they would now force MK into free fall post-dimension cape in addition to all the other nerfs. And yet the god tier pokemon got to retain the ability to do almost anything out of teleport still. To me that felt like overkill.

I don't know, I'm just not feeling any of this, it just dissuades me from wanting to even try him and instead look for someone else to play. I hope this feeling goes away.
 
Last edited:

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
4,290
NNID
hinichii
3DS FC
2423-5382-7542
You can do some cool stuff with dair. It would be cool if it was a tad faster, all around.

Wish you could still do atks out of cape.
 
Last edited:

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
3,135
Location
The other side of Sanity
New dair prolly going to make tether characters weep for mercy, too.

Wonder if you can do the Brawl thing where you dair-carry people away from the edge while laughing like Satan and then flying back to stage as the target dives straight into a blastzone having lost all hope.

... My Brawl is showing, isn't it
 

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
4,290
NNID
hinichii
3DS FC
2423-5382-7542
Can't
Dair ain't that good and one less jump(iforget)
Nodesu
 
Last edited:

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
4,290
NNID
hinichii
3DS FC
2423-5382-7542
R.I.P MK that's all I have to say.
Mk is still super solid. Probably still in that top 15 rank range
Yeah MK's DACUS is legittt
Question from the homie
I saw your game against Gallo in some gf
Saw you use nado in a way I haven't seen, on someone's sheild on a platform, then you drifted off the platform. Was that safe? And with the newly added lag to end, is it safe anymore? Also idr but it's good at EATTING a sheild right?
 
Last edited:

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
Things we still can do in 3.5
Ftilt tipper 1 into IDC (just harder, but its still guaranteed at KO percents, more lenient on floaties)
Uair juggles
Down Tilt into stuff
Jab into stuff
Uthrow ASL
Up Smash up smash into uair stuff on spacies
Dash Attack> stuff
Edge Cancelling Glide Attack
Invincible ledgedash (don't know how many frames, @Chesstiger2612 help me out)

Things different about MK in 3.5
Dthrow ftilt is hella legit at low percents
Down throw IDC at 50-80
Dair IDC at 60-90
DACUS, and now up smash being a viable KO option.
Uair strings into down air
Going deep and dairing stuff

I like the new MK. Only thing I'd wish back was for his IDC to not leave him helpless if used in midair. Other things I'd want back cuz I'm greedy is the old down throw and the faster IDC.
 
Last edited:

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
2,740
Location
Illinois
I've had a little time to reflect on the MK changes since last night. Full disclosure I was pretty drunk and that influenced my perception of things in an overly negative way. I was really disappointed and saddened by what happened to MK, a character I used to love. I might find over time that I love the new MK, albeit in a different way.

I'm going to do a write-up on what I mean by that. Different. The new Meta Knight may be equally viable in the metagame, when all the dust has settled.

My write-up will consist of 3 main points. 3 overall design changes to Meta Knight that I have observed.
  1. Meta Knight is now a slower, more powerful character
  2. The removal of movement options / tricks
  3. The main point: Meta Knight has been made into a more boring character
All these things make for a possibly viable character, but one that I might not want to keep as my main. I fell in love with a different Meta Knight, one that had flow, one that had fun, interesting movement tricks, and one that didn't have an easy time getting kills but made up for it by moving and reading opponents. The new Meta Knight is not like that, at least from my initial impressions. And initial impressions can be very, very wrong. So I'll do the write-up and see what happens. Maybe as I'm making it I'll realize what a fool I've been and how I jumped to conclusions. I hope that happens.

I'm going to make a new topic for this; I don't want to hijack this thread's discussion.
 

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
I've had a little time to reflect on the MK changes since last night. Full disclosure I was pretty drunk and that influenced my perception of things in an overly negative way. I was really disappointed and saddened by what happened to MK, a character I used to love. I might find over time that I love the new MK, albeit in a different way.

I'm going to do a write-up on what I mean by that. Different. The new Meta Knight may be equally viable in the metagame, when all the dust has settled.

My write-up will consist of 3 main points. 3 overall design changes to Meta Knight that I have observed.
  1. Meta Knight is now a slower, more powerful character
  2. The removal of movement options / tricks
  3. The main point: Meta Knight has been made into a more boring character
All these things make for a possibly viable character, but one that I might not want to keep as my main. I fell in love with a different Meta Knight, one that had flow, one that had fun, interesting movement tricks, and one that didn't have an easy time getting kills but made up for it by moving and reading opponents. The new Meta Knight is not like that, at least from my initial impressions. And initial impressions can be very, very wrong. So I'll do the write-up and see what happens. Maybe as I'm making it I'll realize what a fool I've been and how I jumped to conclusions. I hope that happens.

I'm going to make a new topic for this; I don't want to hijack this thread's discussion.
The new MK is I feel is slower and much less slippery, but one thing I will note, is that his wavedash feels really long compared to 3.02's WD.
 

GuruKid

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
875
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Mk is still super solid. Probably still in that top 15 rank range

Question from the homie
I saw your game against Gallo in some gf
Saw you use nado in a way I haven't seen, on someone's sheild on a platform, then you drifted off the platform. Was that safe? And with the newly added lag to end, is it safe anymore? Also idr but it's good at EATTING a sheild right?
Yeah it was pretty good against shields on platforms if you drifted just right. Moderately safe against slower characters like Mario. No, unfortunately it won't work in 3.5 due to the drifting changes.

My first 3.5 tournament is tomorrow but I'll probably be using Wario instead of MK... sorry, bros. :(
 
Last edited:

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
Can anyone confirm on MK's wavedash being shorter/longer compared to 3.02?
 
Last edited:

AlmightySo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
98
Location
Harlem
Yeah it was pretty good against shields on platforms if you drifted just right. Moderately safe against slower characters like Mario. No, unfortunately it won't work in 3.5 due to the drifting changes.

My first 3.5 tournament is tomorrow but I'll probably be using Wario instead of MK... sorry, bros. :(
guru will allstar versus be a side event at nebulous tomorrow?
 
Last edited:

Espi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
482
Location
Vancouver, BC
I'm sticking with MK through all of this. But I'm not happy with the DThrow nerf. I loved tech chasing with MK, now it's been nerfed hard. :(. Also, his wavedash definitely feels longer.
 
Last edited:

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
2,740
Location
Illinois
I just discovered (I'm sure others have as well, but I want people to know about it!) that when hanging on the ledge, you can let go, air jump, d-air, and re-grab the ledge. Nice.
 
Top Bottom