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Melee Sheik or PM Sheik

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AuraMaudeGone

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
747
Location
New Jersey
Don't they both have the same skills?
Not quite

Sheik - The Differences You Should Know by An Easy Frag

Frustrated by the complaints that Sheik is "different" as if it wasn't intentionally made so, I have compiled up this list of Sheik changes for the public to read and study so they know how to use her modified moves in P:M. In particular, the dthrow/bthrow mixup.

D-throw - Uses a PAL-like angle of 62 instead of 80, so there are no longer unavoidable dthrow chains or aerials every time this throw is used. However, it launches the enemy twice as fast as it did before so there's less time to react to it. If the victim could be comboed by Dthrow in NTSC Melee, they will be comboed by this throw unless they DI directly away from Sheik. Neutral DI allows dash attacks, Fair/Nair, and regrabs. Inwards DI allows a deadly Usmash tipper.

B-throw - Has higher BKB and lower KBG. Uses a higher angle of 67 instead of 45. If the target DIs away to avoid Dthrow combos, Bthrow will punish that DI and put them in a perfect spot to follow with a regrab, dash attack, aerial, or even an Usmash KO depending on % and floatiness. Even fast fallers like Fox and Falco can be comboed outright following this throw if they DI it towards Sheik, a possibility not seen with the default Bthrow. At the edge, this can lead to a simple run-off Fair for the kill.

It is important to mix up Bthrow and Dthrow and condition your opponent into failing to DI the right throw properly. Like Fox and his Uthrow, it is beneficial to you to use your intended throw right when you grab for speed purposes.

Rapid Jabs - are rather usable in this game. Their attack rate is higher and they're not as easily cheesed through SDI. They're not entirely abusable, however, as fast and ranged attacks can hit Sheik before she recovers from rapid jabbing them even if done for as briefly as possible. This is easily seen with targets that can quickly DI away and down from the move.

F-smash - is actually decent. The first kick's KB is much more conducive into comboing into the second, and is not ASDI-CCable. The second kick has a higher launch angle, less KBG, and slightly less afterlag. This allows it to combo into something else at low percents, and also at high percents (DI depending). Combine with a stutter step to increase its range for distant punishment.

Needles - they are not as effective as they used to be in Melee due to them being clankable hitboxes without their own hurtbox articles in this game. In Melee, they are unclankable, but have hurtboxes placed deeper inside the move's hitboxes. It was these hurtboxes that needed to be hit to cancel out the move, and their deep placement was the reason they were difficult to clank out in Melee. Needles are still great projectiles with a lot of utility and deadly land cancels. Just don't be surprised when an opponent is able to cancel out multiple needles, or even all 6 of them at once with their own attack. This is not intentional behavior, and will be addressed when a viable solution is found.

If Sheik has any needles stored but is KOed as Zelda, you will lose the needles even after changing back into Sheik unlike Melee.

Chain - Unlike Melee, the chain's hitboxes are unable to clank out projectiles. The electric tipper hit also cannot hit aerial targets, so the effective range is reduced somewhat against people in the air. Brawl mechanics have blessed the chain with the drag maneuver though, which allows the hitboxes to refresh very quickly when the chain is maneuvered with a repeated 2323_2121 motion with the chain flat along the ground. This can deal a great amount of damage in very little time, especially if they dare attempt to CC their way out of it.

Like Melee, the chain also has two different sets of hitboxes for ground and for air use. The air hitboxes have more damage + BKB and actually stop the opponent in their tracks when hit. The air hitboxes can be preserved in the ground state by jumping, using the Chain, and landing after the chain is generated, but before it fully extends. It can build a very effective wall at the edge against certain recoveries, or force an opponent's rush into a hasty retreat to escape Chain combo damage. The ground chain's hitboxes have very little hitstun and lower damage, but are more conducive to the chain drag trick against non-CCing targets.

The chain jacket glitch still exists, and like always is particularly effective when used in conjunction with Dsmash.

Vanish - The damage/KB is Brawl's, so it has some capacity to KO. During the initial jump Vanish does when used in the air, it can grab the edge backwards without warping. You can Vanish and direct the warp facing backwards towards the edge to grab it as per the universal reverse grab mechanic, but you will always be vulnerable for a frame before grabbing the edge this way. Unlike Zelda, Sheik has to warp the full duration before she can grab the edge backwards with her UpB.

Transform - is a valid special move due to the efforts in making Zelda be able to compete. When you use it, you're vulnerable for 62 frames before triggering the loading phase for Zelda. During this time you can be attacked and prevented from transforming. When the loading phase is triggered, you're invulnerable to attack until Zelda is loaded. When Zelda appears at the end of the loading phase, she can act instantly. Attacks can also be buffered out of Transform to guarantee they will hit as fast as can be made possible. This discourages people from simply camping her location to attack her when loading the other half, the load time being subject to random inconsistency. These traits are also shared by Zelda's transformation into Sheik.

Transform can be used offstage to take advantage of Zelda's better horizonal recovery. If you are knocked far offstage but are decently above the level of the stage, Transform, buffer Zelda's aerial jump towards the stage, then UpB to recover better than Sheik alone would have been able to. Using Transform this way requires SD load times to be reasonably quick, or the act of using Transform offstage might just kill you.

Since the loading phase of Transform renders Zelda/Sheik's hurtboxes nonexistent, it can also be used to detach a sticky C4 by Snake. No other character in the demo can currently do this.

Another small fact is that while Zelda's Transform retains horizontal momentum when performed in the air, Sheik's does not.

Crawl - Sheik retains this ability from Brawl. Since Sheik's crouch is quite low, this is one of the better crawls in the game, perhaps second only to Snake's. Crawling under an opponent's projectile to close the gap and avoid the projectile is a standard use of crawl. There are other, situationally effective uses so don't forget she can do this.

Wall Cling - very situational even in comparison to crawl, Sheik also retains the ability to wall cling. Aside from stages that have very obvious walls, this can also be used in the small corners of FD along its sides. While clinging, you can wall jump, let go, or even aerial jump straight up by pressing the jump button while still holding towards the wall. This is usable even if you had used your double jump already before landing, but utilizing the wall jump from a wall cling will not grant back your aerial jump if you had already used it. Wall cling can be used to set up Fair edge from more threatening locations with easy timing, or to mix up how you attack from the ledge, as wall clinging after a ledge drop reverses direction and allows the use of Bair. Ledge drop, wall cling, then either jump straight up into a Bair to attack or UpB from the wall to reverse grab the edge again.
 

Lizalfos

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,483
Location
Greenville, SC
Up-b can grab ledge earlier in the animation, d-throw doesn't chaingrab forever on most characters like it used to, b-throw is now basically a dthrow in the other direction. Probably some other stuff.
 

_DarkLava

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
29
No I just don't have experience in Melee. Sorry
Here is a nifty list of all the changes done to Sheik in Project M.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sheik_(PM)

Some things that they don't mention.
  • She like all characters can pivot grab when they are in their run (running after initial dash)
  • Her upB can grab the ledge backwards before she disappears
  • She can grab the ledge even if she isn't facing it during a few frames out of her upB when she reappears
  • She can wavebounce and B-reversal
 
Last edited:

ECHOnce

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
1,191
Location
Bellevue, WA
What's different about them?
Up-b can grab ledge earlier in the animation, d-throw doesn't chaingrab forever on most characters like it used to, b-throw is now basically a dthrow in the other direction. Probably some other stuff.
Here is a nifty list of all the changes done to Sheik in Project M.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sheik_(PM)

Some things that they don't mention.
  • She like all characters can pivot grab when they are in their run (running after initial dash)
  • Her upB can grab the ledge backwards before she disappears
  • She can grab the ledge even if she isn't facing it during a few frames out of her upB when she reappears
  • She can wavebounce and B-reversal
Are you guys intentionally ignoring AuraMaudeGone's list? It's far more accurate, comprehensive (including specifics important to meta), and up-to-date than anything you'll find on a wiki that only notes visually-apparent differences. Please just use that list, damnit lol
 

_DarkLava

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
29
Are you guys intentionally ignoring AuraMaudeGone's list? It's far more accurate, comprehensive (including specifics important to meta), and up-to-date than anything you'll find on a wiki that only notes visually-apparent differences. Please just use that list, damnit lol
Lol chill. I just didn't see it. I went to look at the spoiler, and it only showed Dthrow changes. Until now did I realize that the "expand" option after you clicked the spoiler was faded to the point where it was hard for me to see.
 

_DarkLava

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
29
So I'm gonna ask now do you prefer Melee Sheik or PM Sheik
Pretty sure that Melee Sheik is better overall. But I like PM's mechanics more than Melee's, so PM Sheik is more fun to me. So I'll go with PM Sheik.
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
94
PM Sheik is stronger imo simply because she has better matchups against spacies. Removing the invinc on shine is huge for tech chase in addition to the PAL changes and recent fox nerfs. These two matchups are the deciding factor for me because they're the only ones Sheik loses/doesn't win in Melee. This could all change with the throw changes although I feel the Melee bthrow will help against spacies but hurt against most everyone else. At the same time, I don't see the changes making her lose many more matchups.
 
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