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MBR Weekly(ish?) Discussions - Fox vs Falco

Fortress | Sveet

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Lasers cut momentum, the same way other projectiles do (besides turnips which have decent knockback). For example, marth getting hit by a laser when coming back might mean the difference between being forced to use his jump or being able to use his jump as a threat.
 

leffen

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Wow I had no idea! Its not like I've played falco before :troll:

It actually didnt have any mentionable effect on any off PP's edgeguards (and marth is a character where its almost good, the rest of top/high tier its p. much worthless).
 

KirbyKaze

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It actually didnt have any mentionable effect on any off PP's edgeguards (and marth is a character where its almost good, the rest of top/high tier its p. much worthless).
Half of why the laser is good has more to do with the behaviors it forces the opponent to take with their jump. Limiting the opponent's options is generally considered a good thing.

I would add that you will be hard-pressed to find another move that applies so much pressure to Peach when she's on the edge; since you brought up Kevin, a ton of his control vs Armada came from him letting Armada grab the edge, shooting lasers until Armada came up, and capitalizing appropriately. Moreover, is it a bad thing that their presence prevents Peach from doing DJ --> float recoveries unless she's basically offscreen (like she would vs a lot of other characters)?

Furthermore, since you made this about just about every character in the game with your original list, I am surprised you write them off so easily vs Falcon and Ganon. Falco's laser ruins any effort of Ganon or Falcon to use their down-B recovery.

Like, some of this shouldn't be stuff I should have to explain.

Also, this.




edit:

Also, most wavedashes out of shield have a 14 frame startup minimally. This may or may not be relevant to the 19+ frame startup thing that you keep throwing around as if it makes Falco's lasers useless or something.
 

leffen

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Half of why the laser is good has more to do with the behaviors it forces the opponent to take with their jump. Limiting the opponent's options is generally considered a good thing.
Yeah, its good, but by no means even close to top tier edgeguarding vs most characters. And they really dont limit options that much because of the low stun.
I would add that you will be hard-pressed to find another move that applies so much pressure to Peach when she's on the edge; since you brought up Kevin, a ton of his control vs Armada came from him letting Armada grab the edge, shooting lasers until Armada came up, and capitalizing appropriately.
I didnt say that its bad for stage controlling, and yeah, peach is horrible on the ledge. Fox and other characters can capitalize on this better though (also, armada handled PP's laser game very badly during Pound 5 GFs).
Moreover, is it a bad thing that their presence prevents Peach from doing DJ --> float recoveries unless she's basically offscreen (like she would vs a lot of other characters)?
This is actually p. bad for peach since falco can edgeguard this much better than going low (dair = win). And the lasers dont really stop her from doing this since falco lasering her close to the stage means free edge grab basically (trust me, I've played that matchup A LOT).

Furthermore, since you made this about just about every character in the game with your original list, I am surprised you write them off so easily vs Falcon and Ganon. Falco's laser ruins any effort of Ganon or Falcon to use their down-B recovery.
Ganon's one gets his jump really fast (less than half) and falcon takes about half. Considering the amount of time it takes to FH and for the laser to arrive it really doesnt limit them as hard as you might think.

Oh and basically every good character can just jump out and hit em without risking anything except falco.

Like, some of this shouldn't be stuff I should have to explain.
Then don't. Of course I dont think its WORTHLESS, but when Unknown compares it to the by far best edgeguard ingame you have to convince me with something better.





Also, most wavedashes out of shield have a 14 frame startup minimally. This may or may not be relevant to the 19+ frame startup thing that you keep throwing around as if it makes Falco's lasers useless or something
Its the minimum startup time for SHL.
 

chaddd

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@Chaddd: Uh, I dont even wanna start that discussion. Just consider the fact that there is no active fox only main in the top, so of course Falco mains are gonna seem more consistent with their tech skill. Oh and if you look at Zgetto vs me I suffered from way more technical struggles than he did ;o.
You're entitled to your opinion as I'm entitled to mine.

With that being said, I don't see why the criteria is a "Fox only" player. I was at Winterfest when Mango won the tournament with Fox, and he got second at Genesis 2 with him as well, all while everyone was saying that Fox never does well at tournaments anymore.

Also, Jman, PC Chris, M2K, Colbol, and Kels.
 

KirbyKaze

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Yeah, its good, but by no means even close to top tier edgeguarding vs most characters. And they really dont limit options that much because of the low stun.
You're thinking of stun too much. They prevent people from being able to jump at a lot of heights and they stop all horizontal momentum. I don't really mean to sound like Sveet, but his argument is pretty legitimate here. Since a lot of Falco's edgeguarding vs top tiers has to do deal with letting people land onstage and then hitting them off for a while, stopping horizontal momentum or forcing them to fall a certain way is a good thing. You can also transition pretty easily into a ledgehop --> aerial game from the behaviors lasers force... especially versus characters like Sheik. Falco's gigantic double jump works well here.

I didnt say that its bad for stage controlling, and yeah, peach is horrible on the ledge. Fox and other characters can capitalize on this better though (also, armada handled PP's laser game very badly during Pound 5 GFs).
I am of the opinion that ledge-pressure is a component of edgeguarding, since a lot of players forgo traditional edgeguards on Peach (and other characters) to let her grab the edge and pressure her from there. Falco is particularly good at playing this position because of his laser (and other things, but laser's one of the big ones).

Also, if we're going to start saying things like, "Armada did X when he could have done Y", then I'm going to openly state I think every Falco's laser game on edgeguard is greatly underdeveloped except maybe like 2009 Lambchops. I don't see anyone even try some of the stuff he went for, and a lot of it was really good.

And the lasers dont really stop her from doing this since falco lasering her close to the stage means free edge grab basically (trust me, I've played that matchup A LOT).
If I'm reading this right, I think this situation actually came up in the match I posted (since you asked for one where lasers do something to another good character) and Zhu handled it fine.

I'm also of the opinion that Falco's one of the strongest characters vs Peach when Peach is holding the edge, so I don't see why that's so detrimental anyway. PP got tons of free hits out of that position... so did Zhu...

Ganon's one gets his jump really fast (less than half) and falcon takes about half. Considering the amount of time it takes to FH and for the laser to arrive it really doesnt limit them as hard as you might think.
Based on my discussions with Kage and a few others, I am going to disagree here; even if they do get their jump back, the laser stopping their horizontal momentum makes the rest of their recovery pretty easily dealt with. Ganon's jump is small so even just nudging him back a bit can be very crippling.

Oh and basically every good character can just jump out and hit em without risking anything except falco.
Hmmm? No, Falco's fine at it at a large amount of ranges. The ones where he can't reach them (which is pretty far) he has the gun for.

Then don't. Of course I dont think its WORTHLESS, but when Unknown compares it to the by far best edgeguard ingame you have to convince me with something better.
Shine isn't the best edgeguard in the game "by far" but that's neither here nor there.

Its the minimum startup time for SHL.
I am aware. I know what you're talking about when you say 19+ frame startup. My inference was that 19+ frames is only bad in a vacuum, but it's really not that bad when you compare it to the actions out of shield.

Since you've stated numerous times that a good shield game > lasers because of 19+ frame startup, my response is that you're greatly underestimating them because 19+ frames isn't actually that bad if their fastest movement action takes 14+ frames.

Also, Falco's lowest laser puts him at something like +7. Lasers have no stun?
 

unknown522

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I've always hated when people use "easier to use" as a criteria. Its really unrelevant, the only thing that matters is who has it easier to win.

These are just general pointers, there are 2000 more factors to count in that makes this more or less viable. Is it favorable to laser [even though its safe] is usually a better question. Unless they are in the air, I rarely find it optimal.

Even when you are lasering an opponent, a lot of times the opponent PSing, or playing a good shield game doesn't matter. The fact that they have to stop moving thanks to the laser still lets falco control the pace.
Yes, falco controls the pace IF he is able to get away with a 19+ frame startup. And its pace control is extremely overrated. First off, its worse at forcing approaches than Fox's (you have to be really fkn stupid/biased to argue otherwise) but its strength comes in the form of lockdown.
The lockdown is however, really overrated. It has minimal stun (a lot of people are just too afraid of taking the damage) and the same ammount of lockdown it causes can be reversed by a ONE FRAME move (shield) that has NO lag (compared to a 19+frame startup with falco).
Falco is also horrible at dealing with his own lasers, he gets way more punished than from taking a PS'd laser than he gains by hitting one on the majority of the cast, he has a bad PS and he has pretty bad movement.

Low lasers = more than DL side platform of length away, even more if he wants dash moementum.
Mid lasers = Falco cannot short hop over anything that is even close to *medium* height lasers and most "low" ones that arent completely perfect require more around half of dreamlands lenght to short jump over.
Remember, falco is very vulnerable for the 22 startup frames [low lasers] , especially to jump ins since these will not be hit even if he gets his laser out in time . When he actually can jump over reflected lasers the opponent will be lagless long before falco can jump.

First off, you dont have to approach him just cause you go over and/or arround him. You can jump over lasers and punish his ground/sh approaches (for example, sheik sh over lasers, fair if falco approaches) which is pretty much 100% safe and you can still be in range to punish a new shl [nonretreated]/ whiffed uptilt without being endangered yourself.
The uptilt has considerable lag and suffers from mobility issues (you cannot move around with the uptilt good enought to match most aerial approaches) and the bair suffers from things really, they both rely on the opponent approaching you carelessly, which powershielding and other shizzle is able to prevent.

When people go on platforms [when dealing with lasers] falco is forced to fortfeit huge amounts of stagecontrol to battle their approaches. Falco's mobility/lack of range doesnt allow him to battle good platform movement as well as the other top tiers/falcon.

Approaching lasers are a huge risk and generally, suck fkn ****. PS/jumping over it/intercepting it is way too easy and it only really gives you a decent award if the opponent is brain dead and lets you land in shine range.

I think its really overrated as a edge guarding tool. It has way to long startup (you can see him jumping up to laser [esp FHL] and you can just get around it by (shine)stalling and/or using it to aid your recovery) and has too little reward.
Lets see what characters lasers are usually used on when edgeguarding:
Fox: Yes, though you can get around it easily if you just react to his jump. The only times you should be hit by a laser is if you are UP-B'ing where falco cannot hit you and then you lose still dont lose any height from the laser[no hitstun, only hitlag]and are now able to choose another option.
Sheik: Worthless.
Jigglypuff: Worthless.
Marth: Worthless.
Peach: Worthless
Falcon: Worthless.
ICs: Worthless.
Ganondorf: Worthless
Samus: Worthless
Dr Mario. Worthless.
Pikachu: Worthless
Luigi:Worthless
Mario:Worthless.
DK: Worthless.
Link: Worthless.
Young Link: Worthless
Zelda:Worthless
Mewtwo: Worthless.
Roy: Worthless
Yoshi: Worthless.
GAW: Worthless.
Ness. Decent.
Bowser: Decent
Kirby: Worthless
Pichu: Worthless

*Realizes hes talking to a fox main* Oh I see.

Jesus, You just fail. Not only does falco have real troubles with edgeguarding all of the higher tiers except for Falcon, HE CANNOT FORCE HIS OPPONENT OFFSTAGE TO GIMP PPL.
Having to abuse ledge invincibility with shine is LESS important than doing it with falcos dair since Fox can actually move outside of the stage. Oh and Fox doesnt have to force people low, if he shines ANYONE offstage without a jump they are dead.


Again, easier to play ****. Fox has 40times better shield pressure because of his grab, falcos just sucks which is why he even has to resort to using aerials and shines when he knows his opponent is gonna shield. + you forgot fox being faster as in less lag and faster startup.


Fox doesnt have to approach. This is what makes him win over every other character in the game. To those who can outcamp him [falco only] he will win by being MUCH faster/better close range and to those who can outspace him [Marth, Sheik, Jigglypuff] he break their walls by forcing them to approach.



And if they platform camp/powershield?


sigh. I guess Bowser is the best since his best playstyle is the same versus everybody!

@4-6 Fox-Marth, 7-3 Falco-CF.
:embarrass:


A lot of people say that "Falco forces you to play his game". He does, but so does every character. People have just played Fox enough that its considered your normal playstyle.
ugh, now I have to make a long *** response about why most of this is wrong.

Maybe I'll post it like a disrespectful *** too

:embarrass:
 

HyugaRicdeau

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Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
So yeah, it's been what 3.5 weeks now, and while there have been some good posts made, I'm not feeling that it's close to enough to justify putting out. The amount of response is definitely less than what I expected based on some of the enthusiastic input I got when I made the thread asking what people thought. So, I'm going to let this run for a few more days and see what happens, and I'd like some feedback about it and the idea of weekly (bi-weekly? monthly?) discussions as a whole. I still feel like they are a great idea on paper but I'm not confident in people's participation yet. I do want to thank the people that did post in here and try to get a dialogue going. I'll respond to a couple things perhaps in hope of jump-starting it again.

I've always hated when people use "easier to use" as a criteria. Its really unrelevant, the only thing that matters is who has it easier to win.
But isn't being easier to use a factor in having it easier to win? I don't see how it's not. You can only argue that it's not significantly different between Fox and Falco.
Yes, falco controls the pace IF he is able to get away with a 19+ frame startup.
But it's not just that; even if Falco can't presently get away with a 19+ frame startup, he can often do other things that will put him in a position where he can.
The lockdown is however, really overrated. It has minimal stun (a lot of people are just too afraid of taking the damage) and the same ammount of lockdown it causes can be reversed by a ONE FRAME move (shield) that has NO lag (compared to a 19+frame startup with falco).
Falco is also horrible at dealing with his own lasers, he gets way more punished than from taking a PS'd laser than he gains by hitting one on the majority of the cast, he has a bad PS and he has pretty bad movement.
This and the other stuff about PS'd lasers is quite interesting, but how much does it really matter in the end? People still don't consistently PS lasers on command very well in tournament, and this only works when you're on the ground, meaning you're not trying to approach by jumping-in to take advantage of the 19+ frame startup.
If you intend to get significant advantage from the PS, you also have to do it when Falco is relatively close to you, because that makes Falco's reaction time smaller and prevents him from "resetting" the situation back to lasering. This is more risky because if you fail, you're either put in your shield with a well-spaced Falco in front of you, or you're in laser hitstun.
First off, you dont have to approach him just cause you go over and/or arround him. You can jump over lasers and punish his ground/sh approaches (for example, sheik sh over lasers, fair if falco approaches) which is pretty much 100% safe and you can still be in range to punish a new shl [nonretreated]/ whiffed uptilt without being endangered yourself.
Much easier said than done, isn't it? If you don't know what Falco is going to do and when he's going to do it, which you generally don't, you can't just "fair if falco approaches" and expect success. Sheik doesn't have a whole lot of horizontal aerial mobility, and she has quite a high short hop, so that gives Falco opportunity to control the horizontal spacing. Of course, this is just one example, but it seems like your conclusion is based on some kind of idealized flowchart with not as much consideration as to how likely the execution of each step of the chart is to succeed.

When people go on platforms [when dealing with lasers] falco is forced to fortfeit huge amounts of stagecontrol to battle their approaches. Falco's mobility/lack of range doesnt allow him to battle good platform movement as well as the other top tiers/falcon.
I somewhat agree with this, although I don't think it's generally a good idea to be above Falco on a platform, so I think you overstate how much stage control he loses. And what Falco loses on platforms in terms of stage control, he makes up for (maybe not entirely, but significantly) in combos and recovery.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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But isn't being easier to use a factor in having it easier to win? I don't see how it's not. You can only argue that it's not significantly different between Fox and Falco.
easier to use generally refers to the physical inputs and control.

easier to win generally refers to mental strategies and how simple they are to implement or in other words how much thought input it takes to win.

while similar and often synonymous, they are different.
 

Strong Badam

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Yes, falco controls the pace IF he is able to get away with a 19+ frame startup. And its pace control is extremely overrated. First off, its worse at forcing approaches than Fox's (you have to be really fkn stupid/biased to argue otherwise) but its strength comes in the form of lockdown.
The lockdown is however, really overrated.
it's frame data time? k
SHL has 18+ frames of startup. 5 (jumpsquat) + 13 (laser startup). The first 5 frames are mostly irrelevant from a reaction standpoint, however, as on frame 6 you could be on the ground due to a wavedash. So that gives you what, 13 frames to react to and punish a laser? After initiating a laser, assuming your later statement of 22 frames for a late laser is correct (but off 1 frame), you have 17-20 (4 frames landing lag was added) frames afterward before you can do anything, with a projectile in front of you. And you have a frame 1 (with invincibility) and a frame 2 move, or you can dash back, or many things.
While Falco's lasers are less effective at forcing approaches, their strength rather lies in their effectiveness in limiting approaches. Fox's laser doesn't force you to jump over them, shield, forfeit position by moving to a platform, or take a minimum 11 frames of stun.
It has minimal stun (a lot of people are just too afraid of taking the damage) and the same ammount of lockdown it causes can be reversed by a ONE FRAME move (shield) that has NO lag (compared to a 19+frame startup with falco).
While Powershield reflect occurs frame 1, there are also 4 stipulations to it.
1. You must completely suppress the trigger within 2 frames. Not too hard.
2. The window to time this is 2 frames.
3. You're still in your shield after powershielding a projectile. Unlike powershielding normal attacks, you can't IASA into A or B attacks.
4. The laser also has to be between the edge of your shield and your character's hurtbox. Powershielding with characters like Peach, Marth, & Sheik isn't much of a challenge with full shield, but against a character notorious for effective shield pressure, this isn't always the case in any given situation.
The reward for powershielding a laser is also minimal, as the reflected laser becomes fully stale and does only 1.65 damage.

Practically speaking (frame data aside), powershield reflect isn't the be-all-end-all laser counter. Mixing in SHL's where you land within the first 12 frames makes it more of a guessing game than a "Oh he's shorthopping, now to time my powershield perfectly" case, and if you do an empty SHL and they try to PS, they're now in their shield, and I'm sure you know how Falco is against shielding opponents. They now have to commit time to WD OoS, which takes longer than a laser's stun.
Falco is also horrible at dealing with his own lasers, he gets way more punished than from taking a PS'd laser than he gains by hitting one on the majority of the cast, he has a bad PS and he has pretty bad movement.
Continuing, there are few things an opponent can do with frame advantage upon successfully powershielding a laser. If they're close enough, grab is obvious enough, Up-B out of shield with Marth/Samus, or do a quick aerial OoS. Wavedash out of shield -> Shine isn't even fast enough; Falco can simply shield. Punishes aren't guaranteed in this situation; properly timed dash back SH reverse laser beats most standing punishes and running punishes, jab beats any running punish I can think of & wd oos grab, and shield works against just about everything except grab.
This is all assuming Falco gets hit by the reflected laser. Falco can PS reflect it back (lolz), or just shine depending on distance. Where shine doesn't work, shield will, and then they have even fewer frames to punish you (though you're stuck in your shield, the laser only has 5 frames of stun [2 frames shieldstun, 3 frames hitlag], so you're +6 in comparison to getting hit by the laser, where you have options if you're out of grab range).
Remember, falco is very vulnerable for the 22 startup frames [low lasers] , especially to jump ins since these will not be hit even if he gets his laser out in time . When he actually can jump over reflected lasers the opponent will be lagless long before falco can jump.
I already covered options after powershield above. Even then, what about empty SH -> waveland? Powershielding a low laser is also generally harder than mid-level lasers due to leg/feet hitboxes sticking out closer to the edge of a shield. You are correct though; if he DJ's or full jumps over a laser they'll be out of stun before Falco lands.
You can jump over lasers and punish his ground/sh approaches (for example, sheik sh over lasers, fair if falco approaches) which is pretty much 100% safe and you can still be in range to punish a new shl [nonretreated]/ whiffed uptilt without being endangered yourself.
Why do you limit it to nonretreated? Since you're assuming the opponent can powershield consistently, why not assume that the Falco can SH retreating Laser, which is much easier to do...?
The uptilt has considerable lag and suffers from mobility issues (you cannot move around with the uptilt good enought to match most aerial approaches) and the bair suffers from things really, they both rely on the opponent approaching you carelessly, which powershielding and other shizzle is able to prevent.
While the uptilt mobility point is a decent point,
and the bair suffers from things really
I don't agree with this. Dash back bair covers most approaches and without prediction (mixups, etc.) can't be punished.
I think its really overrated as a edge guarding tool. It has way to long startup (you can see him jumping up to laser [esp FHL] and you can just get around it by (shine)stalling and/or using it to aid your recovery) and has too little reward.
I don't really see how the startup is relevant. What else would you be doing while waiting for them to recover? Jump all the way out there and dair? Just because they can react to them being fired, doesn't mean they're any better off when their ultimate goal is to return to the ledge safely. As KK said, lasers limit options. If you time lasers correctly, characters can be forced to DJ later than they want to. This game is all about limiting options.
Even in cases where you can't really limit options well, being able to deal damage in an edgeguarding situation is always better than not being able to.
unknown522's points with leffen's responses in red said:
The d-air is also a more convenient killing tool than the shine for these reasons:

- Stronger move LOL'D. Shine kills at 0% and cannot be tech'd.
- hitbox lasts for a long time Great, easier to tech.
- more range wrong.
1. It can't be teched by characters of Marth's weight or higher. It killing at 0% is also kind of a stretch; while it does happen, it doesn't happen nearly as often as it used to as people have adapted and are more cautious position-wise against Fox near the ledge. Shine also doesn't combo into itself from onstage -> offstage (like Falco's dair does. Even at low percents, dair -> shine gets characters to a percentage where Falco's shine actually has more knockback.
2. This just doesn't make any sense. The hitbox's active time is irrelevant to its ledgetechability. Shine is more difficult to tech because it sends at a more horizontal angle than dair does, however dair is still pretty hard to tech unless Falco is on the stage by a bit. The weak hit is also impossible to tech until ~70%ish because it doesn't put characters into tumble.
3. What kind of a rebuttal is that? Being an aerial, Falco's dair can benefit from hitbox drag and aerial momentum control (drifting). With Fox's shine, you have to be right next to them. While the hitbox itself is larger, some of it is behind Fox and it's not as far forward as Falco's dair.
unknown522's points
Jesus, You just fail.
This is just unnecessarily disrespectful and abrasive. It's understandable that one can get a bit passionate in a heated debate, but I think back here we should all show each other respect. We're all doing something right if we're here, right? Moving on:
unknown522 said:
Fox's shine if obviously ridiculously broken as well, but you have to either time it really well, or abuse ledge invincibility. Also, if the opponent recovers high, then fox can't shoot them down with lasers to force them low, or to control them to where he wants them to go.
Again, easier to play ****. [Fox has 40times better shield pressure because of his grab, falcos just sucks which is why he even has to resort to using aerials and shines when he knows his opponent is gonna shield.] + you forgot fox being faster as in less lag and faster startup.
Here you just kind of digress into other stuff that doesn't really respond to his. (other stuff in []) Shine's timing requirement isn't only an ease of use issue; the fact that D-air's hitbox stays out for 1/3rd of a second while Fox's shine is only out for 1 frame means that with any given timing of the two, Dair covers more options. Even holding away from the ledge for a bit can make shine miss, while if you're still moving upward (as is usually the case with recovery) dair will hit you in most cases.
Fox doesnt have to approach. This is what makes him win over every other character in the game. To those who can outcamp him [falco only] he will win by being MUCH faster/better close range and to those who can outspace him [Marth, Sheik, Jigglypuff] he break their walls by forcing them to approach.
I've always disliked this argument. While Fox's lasers deal damage and usually characters want to aproach because of it, unlike Falco's lasers Fox's lasers don't successfully apply any real pressure or limiting of options. In a situation where a character is dash-dancing near enough to Fox/Falco to dash in and grab/upsmash/dash attack them on reaction to a retreating SHL, which laser is more effective on hit? Falco's lasers ability to actually limit approach options in the neutral Dash Dance game are far more valuable than Fox's damage dealing, which are mostly good mid-to-full stage in a neutral position. Lastly, Fox's lasers allow the opponent to space largely however they want. Falco's do two main things. 1. limit options and 2. turn opponent's around on hit. This makes back-airing him usually ineffective, which varies in relevance based on match-up. As a DK player I of course am the one to mention it, but it's relevant in the Puff match-up as well.
@KK Link me one set where lasers actually DO something vs a top tier thats not falco or fox.
This is just a really bad argument. You limit the criteria to top tier, then you cut top tier in half. ?? Fox & Falco are also, if one had to choose, the most relevant characters in a tournament setting due to their popularity.
I'll definitely concede that lasers are really ****ing useless on FoD though. LOL
Just consider the fact that there is no active fox only main in the top, so of course Falco mains are gonna seem more consistent with their tech skill. Oh and if you look at Zgetto vs me I suffered from way more technical struggles than he did ;o.
No offense to you or your skill level, but Zgetto has significantly more experience in a tournament setting. Correct me if Zgetto was playing comparatively badly at Pound 4, but he lost to Zhu with NTSC up-smash, up-b recovery & weight, & beat you without those.
Zgetto's also one of the only examples of Fox players that are able to compete at a top level and have consistent technical skill to do it, unless you count Mango (didjoo see those recovery attempts in grand finals tho, lol <3). Lovage is getting close to that level, and Jman always has been close.

and finally
KirbyKaze said:
Also, if we're going to start saying things like, "Armada did X when he could have done Y", then I'm going to openly state I think every Falco's laser game on edgeguard is greatly underdeveloped except maybe like 2009 Lambchops. I don't see anyone even try some of the stuff he went for, and a lot of it was really good.
I'll mostly agree with this, outside of Zhu when he's playing well. Pound 4 Zhu was ****ing amazing. The use of shield for laser positioning in this still amazes me to this day.
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
leffen tells me there is no way that Falco goes better than even with Fox, but there's totally a way Fox goes better than even with Falco and that he won't discuss it with me in PP's thread anymore. So I'm coming in here to say that I disagree and think that the matchup is in Falco's favor, but rationally think that the community will reach the consensus that it is even. It's ridiculous to think that Falco is so clearly behind in this matchup that there's no way he wins it IMO, especially when looking at tournament matches over basically any reasonably long period of time you see either evenish results or cases of Falco destroying Fox (depending on when you're looking at, as it is now, it's pretty even unless the last 6 months of the game have shown Fox ****** the matchup while I wasn't watching).
 

leffen

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@KK
You're thinking of stun too much. They prevent people from being able to jump at a lot of heights and they stop all horizontal momentum. I don't really mean to sound like Sveet, but his argument is pretty legitimate here. Since a lot of Falco's edgeguarding vs top tiers has to do deal with letting people land onstage and then hitting them off for a while, stopping horizontal momentum or forcing them to fall a certain way is a good thing. You can also transition pretty easily into a ledgehop --> aerial game from the behaviors lasers force... especially versus characters like Sheik. Falco's gigantic double jump works well here.
I know about the horizontal limitations, I'm just saying that they really aren't that useful and they arent used all that much to keep ppl away from the stage.
About using them against ppl the ledge; I think its pretty bad vs characters with good Waveland since they can just wait for Falco to jump and get a free hit.
I'm also of the opinion that Falco's one of the strongest characters vs Peach when Peach is holding the edge, so I don't see why that's so detrimental anyway. PP got tons of free hits out of that position... so did Zhu...
He is no doubt pretty strong although he handles her ledgestalling/ledgehop much worse than the other top tiers.


Since you've stated numerous times that a good shield game > lasers because of 19+ frame startup, my response is that you're greatly underestimating them because 19+ frames isn't actually that bad if their fastest movement action takes 14+ frames.
Shield startup 1 frame and you are pretty damn safe then, which is what you compare to the 19 frames since falco isnt done after those 19 frames (and you usually just wd oos when falco is far away, grab/usmash/nair without losing momentum etc can be used as a true combo). My point was about the commitment/reaction **** which is heavily in the opponents favor imo.

Also, Falco's lowest laser puts him at something like +7. Lasers have no stun?
Unstaled and 1pixel away from him, maybe. But you have to consider staleness+that the laser travels faster than Falco (which means he can just as well nair if he thinks the laser is gonna hit).

@Strongbad:
SHL has 18+ frames of startup. 5 (jumpsquat) + 13 (laser startup). The first 5 frames are mostly irrelevant from a reaction standpoint, however, as on frame 6 you could be on the ground due to a wavedash. So that gives you what, 13 frames to react to and punish a laser? After initiating a laser, assuming your later statement of 22 frames for a late laser is correct (but off 1 frame), you have 17-20 (4 frames landing lag was added) frames afterward before you can do anything, with a projectile in front of you. And you have a frame 1 (with invincibility) and a frame 2 move, or you can dash back, or many things.
The startup isnt irrelevant from a reaction standpoint since its used to follow up other moves, OOS/from shine etc and since WD is also a commitment so you can choose options that cover both.
While Falco's lasers are less effective at forcing approaches, their strength rather lies in their effectiveness in limiting approaches. Fox's laser doesn't force you to jump over them, shield, forfeit position by moving to a platform, or take a minimum 11 frames of stun.
You dont think I know this >_>? But you need to consider the fact that you could camp Falco by just powershielding his lasers all the time and force him to approach, you cannot do it with Fox's.

Since you can react to the laser actually coming out fakes arent really that much of a concern. Especially if you consider the fact that if they just jump at you and you do fake you'll suffer far more punishment than you can ever hope to get by a fake. Close range PS's (PS->Grab/Usmash etc) will also hit even if the laser doesnt actually hit.

Fakes are useful but they arent even close at forcing a 50/50 mixup, SHL fakes are much like using tomahawks in other situations. Dont forget that you actually start moving at frame 3 with WD/Jump, its much harder to punish than a SHL.
@Falcos options against PS:
Retreated SHL causes falco to give up huge amounts of stage control the laser limiting his options when he lands doesnt help either.
Oh and dont forget using PS's out of a full dash (allows fox to shnair without losing any momentum at all really/sliding grabs). This beats Retreating lasers and truecombos at most times.
Falco PSing it is pretty unrealistic since he will have way less time to see if a laser is coming or not and he has a really bad shield to PS with.
Dash back bair covers most approaches and without prediction (mixups, etc.) can't be punished.
Retreating bair gives little to no reward and you can actually get around it pretty easily since you can react to it in many cases.
No offense to you or your skill level, but Zgetto has significantly more experience in a tournament setting. Correct me if Zgetto was playing comparatively badly at Pound 4, but he lost to Zhu with NTSC up-smash, up-b recovery & weight, & beat you without those.
Zgetto's also one of the only examples of Fox players that are able to compete at a top level and have consistent technical skill to do it, unless you count Mango (didjoo see those recovery attempts in grand finals tho, lol <3). Lovage is getting close to that level, and Jman always has been close.
Pound 4 was 1½ year ago, jeez. And at that tournament Zhu placed higher than PP and PP got the same placement as Plank. That isnt really relevant and should especially not be used in some wierd Inui logic.
Oh and you dont think M2K has been able to compete at top level with fox? wth.

Great post man, some very interesting stuff that I'll take to consideration.

Overall I'd just like to say that I'm happy about how this discussion developed, and I'm sorry that I acted like an *** Unknown.

@Mogwai: Jeez, I said that I dont see Falco going any better than even with Fox IMO, and I'm not basing that off results. I do however think its pretty close to even but a tiny bit more in Fox's favor, esp if you consider how the metagame is likely to develop.
I can also see myself changing my view of the match up later, but atm I dont see it.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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i liked the part where leffen strawmanned or otherwise ignored the contents of the post he was replying to in order to say something slightly unrelated to make it seem like he was actually discussing things.

oh yeah and the part where he completely ignored mogwai and finally decided to reply to things said weeks ago

edit- nvm he did sorta reply to mogwai...
 

leffen

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Yeah, like you guys answered every single line I wrote. Im just answering to what I think will actually produce some interesting discussion, such as Strong Bad's post.

But please, if you want it so bad, why don't you tell me what I did wrong.
 

Cactuar

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@leffen:

Without having read your posts over for actual content quality, I have seen that your attitude has been somewhat abrasive.

Part of being an MBR member is crafting your posts in a respectful manner. If I see you post something like "Jesus, you just fail." or with the condescending attitude displayed in the text quoted above it again, you will be removed.

I'm not ignoring the sarcasm coming from some of the other guys, but the majority of it is reaction to your instigation. I appreciate your enthusiasm and commitment to writing lengthy and thorough posts to detail your opinions, but please try to filter out some of dat sass. Thanks!
 

HyugaRicdeau

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I am in agreement with Cactus. It's great that you have a desire to contribute to the discussion, but we don't talk to MBR members like that, at least not in a discussion like this.

Everyone deserves each others' respect here. That doesn't mean you can't criticize another person's opinion (indeed, we should only respect opinions to the extent that they are backed up with solid reasoning), but that criticism has to stay with the opinion and not be directed towards the person who puts forth the opinion.
 

KirbyKaze

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@KK

I know about the horizontal limitations, I'm just saying that they really aren't that useful and they arent used all that much to keep ppl away from the stage.
About using them against ppl the ledge; I think its pretty bad vs characters with good Waveland since they can just wait for Falco to jump and get a free hit.
I simply disagree then. I think they're a great tool to manipulate people into vulnerable positions (1st part of your post). The second part... it requires poor spacing on your part to have this limitation, they have to do the ledgedash fairly perfectly, and it still works like a "meaty" because of the laser's length and duration, which forces them to act or block... which are both favourable for Falco anyway.

He is no doubt pretty strong although he handles her ledgestalling/ledgehop much worse than the other top tiers.
How so? I'd imagine you could walk forward and use the invincible down smash but maybe I'm mistaken?

Shield startup 1 frame and you are pretty damn safe then, which is what you compare to the 19 frames since falco isnt done after those 19 frames (and you usually just wd oos when falco is far away, grab/usmash/nair without losing momentum etc can be used as a true combo). My point was about the commitment/reaction **** which is heavily in the opponents favor imo.
Even if the defending character was safe, they still can't accomplish anything directly out of shield. They need to action OOS in order to combat Falco's... whatever. Since that involves them moving towards Falco out of their more limited shield repertoire (compare options in shield to options normally) this is favourable for Falco. Even if he has to be vaguely preemptive, the speed difference for them to move in on him, and the ground he controls, limits their actions favourably. You can plan for less. This is still good.


Unstaled and 1pixel away from him, maybe. But you have to consider staleness+that the laser travels faster than Falco (which means he can just as well nair if he thinks the laser is gonna hit).
I guess I could get into hypothetical frame things but more easily I would notice that it requires your opponent to commit to the action pretty heavily to get stuff out in time to stuff laser > X approaches. Can't you then just wait out the action and punish? Or alternatively just continue shooting most characters if they refuse to come to you?

You dont think I know this >_>? But you need to consider the fact that you could camp Falco by just powershielding his lasers all the time and force him to approach, you cannot do it with Fox's.
This here is basically super theory bros. because nobody powershields every laser on reaction every time. I'd also argue this is dumb because if they're really that set on PSing lasers, you could just alter your laser strategy to jump over PS'd lasers (or PS them yourself).

Moreover, the reduced stun Falco takes on PS'd lasers means he can buffer most shield options or shine or up tilt before most characters can get to him (at least with WD OOS based options; if they're running block powershield grabbing I'd argue Falco is spacing poorly; even then you can still CC shine first most of the time as a result of lasers having reduced stun after PS).

Fox's gun does less than Falco's vs most characters.

Retreating bair gives little to no reward and you can actually get around it pretty easily since you can react to it in many cases.
Retreat Bair sets up knockdowns and other useful things. It's not as good as landing a clean Dair but "little to no reward" is an exaggeration.
 

Dr Peepee

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Fox vs Falco

Okay I know I'm reaaaallllly late with this, but I'm hoping I can still contribute something useful.


I'm going to start this off by saying I don't really care who wins, but I may pick up on something as I read what I'm writing and change my mind to that for the sake of discussion.


There are a multitude of ways to play this matchup on a broad and narrow scale. For Fox, this may include outmaneuvering Falco with platforms and running/jumping speed, or he could play powershield games that use Fox's already-threatening shield to throw Falco's lasers back at him. Fox could play a slower game and react to Falco's approaches by SDI'ing lasers into dashes or jumps or upsmashes. All of these ideas and more play on Fox's ability to counter Falco's laser/movement game and force Falco to second guess his typical laser/movement game(I combine the two terms as they are both interrelated but also moving comes with the constant threat of lasers, so taking care of one naturally takes care of the other). This is the goal of any character vs Falco really, but Fox is still able to apply his speed unlike characters such as Falcon while applying big moves like Bair, Nair(both from FHs in particular, but the difference between Fox and Falcon for their big moves is that Fox has a faster fall speed acceleration and a bigger, constant Nair that sticks out at great angles), or Usmash in many different ways. Applications for Bair and Nair typically involve FHs/platforms/DJs as walling/threatening tools, and upsmash is usually used to catch Falco shooting a laser or as he falls to the ground with anything(especially Dair) and hopefully killing/beginning a combo with it.

Fox tends to lose situations that he's in without his double jump because Falco can laser control Fox's descent as well as shine Fox's landing lag from aerials on platforms. Fox also loses out if he falls into Falco with a Nair below 40%ish or misspaces Bairs that causes them to connect with the weak hitbox at higher percents(maybe up to 75%ish I don't remember off the top). Sort of a combination of the two weaknesses results in the more common Fox problem in this matchup, which is Falco going hard into Fox's landing lag at ground level. Fox can't always space directly in front of Falco or on his shield so he falls off of platforms with moves or just FHs/DJs into them to space and wall Falco in a really weird way(those FH inward then retreating Nairs come to mind that are common these days). This practice can work for Fox in that it effectively keeps Falco out/can throw his momentum off if he connects, but if Falco gets running momentum going into where he reads that Fox will land it is very likely that a laser to grab is possible(maybe with laser SDI not so much but most people don't think to do that). Fox also must be wary of falling directly onto Falco. This can be a powerful approach if Fox reads a laser or FH or retreat from Falco but Falco can simply Uptilt and begin a combo if Fox reads incorrectly. There are probably more small things that make up neutral position and all of the little momentum games that make each tactic more effective than another in this matchup, but I'm hoping this can give a clear enough view of what Fox can expect to get punished for right now.


There are 2 major ways Falco can fight Fox from what I've observed. The first is a varying height laser game. This type of style varies because it can involve Lambchops or Dashizwiz-style lasers that involve lots of platforms and are designed to cover jump escapes the opponent may try. The other is more of a more grounded laser game like Zhu and I use but it requires quite a few lasers to feel out the opponent and observe their options from the handful that are typically left based on our remaining movement game that allow Falco to approach/defend with advance warning(ideally). Mango's Falco plays like a more direct version of the laser intensive grounded style. I can't say which laser style is best-suited for fighting Fox, but I can offer the way I'd like to think when determining which way that would be.

The point of lasers vs Fox is to equal out the disadvantage presented by Fox's much greater mobility over Falco. The more effective the lasers are or are used for locking Fox down then the better they are in the matchup. If lasers are capable of consistently controlling Fox then it's reasonable to believe that they could be used in any way to lock Fox down and even out the field between Fox's mobility and Falco's, and simplify the game to a moderately close to close-range approaching mixup game(typically seen as shield pressure but it could also be spaced Bairs or even other lasers). This would obviously be only for a time though, as lasers provide that link for Falco to transition between his powerful control game and his medicore/above average approach/pressure game and don't allow Falco to stay in that position of power long because the opponent will recognize that they are no longer locked down and will have to be locked down again unless they capitalize on the pressure(which would technically be easier to beat than the lasers themselves, which is what I suppose I'm getting at).

Maybe then, the goal for Fox is not to necessarily navigate Falco's lasers superbly but to influence how he uses them so Fox can better take advantage of Falco's approaches when Falco believes he has advantage.


Shield pressuring can quickly turn either way from my experience in this matchup. Falco seems to have a safer shine on shield, but I feel as though Fox being faster while having a faster SH can aid him in doing empty hops in his shield pressure or could give him leeway to wait and react better during it. This could also be because if Fox pressures just outside of shield grab range then Falco couldn't grab it as easily and Fox, having a faster jump, could benefit more from things such as spaced Bairs since he could go into more or a more aggressive Nair-shine type approach or continue spacing much faster. Fox can also react to rolls away later or from farther away than Falco and still get punishes, but I suppose it could be possible Falco could space himself to chase with Dairs and get similar results(just remembered Falco can also mix in lasers in his shield pressure as a quirk but also to hold someone in place if they roll). That may be much harder to react to, but I'm not sure. Fox gets Upsmash OOS on Falco if he attempts to space his shield pressure too much as Usmash will trade with whatever move Falco could be using at the least. Shield DI(away usually) is very effective vs both styles of pressure, and if Fox decides to avoid being shield grabbed by using Dair then shield DI can be used to be pushed Falco very far away from the following shine.

While there are a lot of little things and situations that do exist and can be mixed up with each spacies' shield pressure game, it's important to note what shield pressure is designed to do here. Both would like to catch the other OOS with a shine, as that leads to a combo, but fairly often shield pressure would serve to force rolls at opportune times so it can lead to a more direct hit into punishment. The rest of shield pressure is conditioning or a way to ride momentum or get stray hits/grabs(which, for Fox, is still quite beneficial on the grab spectrum.....it would have to still be used sparingly due to the shine staling issue though).


For Falco punishments, we have the ability for Fox to DI Falco's shines off of platforms as well as SDI his ordinary combo hits to make it so that Falco has to guess for his followups after a while percentage-wise. Falco then drops his combo or will have to make a sometimes-difficult tech chase decision on a platform. Platform and grounded tech chasing(usually from Dairs) aren't too hard based on the limited space Fox can move to, but it's more about reacting to the teching situation and result quickly since Falco can't move fast enough to wait. This is all disregarding the janky throw setups Falco has on Fox as well(things like catching Fox offguard can usually lead to a combo from upthrow or a Dsmash from Dthrow, for example). With this all in mind, it would typically be best to combo Fox into Dsmash as frequently as possible to end the combo quickly as well as reduce the difficulty it would take to edgeguard(assuming % is high enough and the recovery couldn't be controlled better with lasers if Fox went higher at times).

On Fox's end, he's typically searching for a grab or shine or CC'd aerial above 45-50%ish that will guarantee a knockdown on Falco. From grabs, Fox has a CG that lasts until Fox can combo into an upsmash kill or edgeguard. Since platforms tend to lead to early ending upthrow chains, either from tech positions or edge cancels, it is typically better for Fox to simply upthrow upsmash Falco, at least at lower percents. At mid percents(maybe like 30-55ish?) upsmash can lead into itself for great free damage and it typically forces Falco to double jump unless he wants to take more, which can transition to more punishment on Falco's end since lasers can't really cover his fall(Fox will be below him) and Fox can jump over Dair or DD grab it as well as the airdodge. Fox can Nair out of upthrow at higher percents into Usmash kills or if Falco DIs away it can lead to an edgeguard. At lower percents an Upthrow Upsmash leads to tech chases(unless edgecanceled but I don't believe that can happen on a platform so it would only matter if the upsmash occurs close to the edge).

Knockdowns test Fox's reaction game. Fox can chase with dash attack(can execute easier and from farther away than upsmash) at higher percents, which leads into upsmash finishers. He also has shine tech chases that could be used to reset the situation but, more realistically, would be used to push Falco offstage to set up a free shine spike. Upsmash to combo or kill is very effective when tech chasing Falco. Nair can be pretty potent to combo or reset or set up an edgeguard as well since it can be done out of a dash, like dash attack, but it also extends a little farther a little faster if Fox is late on the reaction/arrives at the tech late due to how little time Fox has to make it over there if he pushed Falco away at an awkward angle. Basically, Fox's true combos seem to end early but consist of a few powerful hits and then Fox has to depend on his strong tech chase game+reaction time, so it will be a matter of extending hits with clever positioning and efficient punishments(hopefully grabs) from tech chases that will lead to quick edgeguards or lots of damage and situation resets or forcing Falco into situations without his double jump so he can be continually exploited. Probably a more taxing way to combo for a human.



I do believe that Fox wins overall in terms of edgeguarding and recovery vs Falco. This is because Fox is faster than Falco and his shine sends Falco at a very low angle so he has a 1 frame way to simplify/end the edgeguard. Fox has a bigger recovery, both on his side B and up-B, than Falco as well as flames on his up-B to protect from poorly-spaced edgeguard attempts.


I do not believe Fox has a bad stage vs Falco inherently, but styles of Foxes vs styles of Falco tend to make it seem that way. The only stages in the current ruleset(Apex 2 has the same as Genesis 2, right?) that I would say change the matchup would be DL64, KJ64, and PS. I feel as though Fox benefits more than Falco on those stages(PS during transformations) simply because lasers are so much harder to use effectively with much space on them. FD, the common go-to discussion stage, has Falco's laser game become more simplified, but that is not a huge problem when Fox gets WD OOS to mix with FHs so Falco still has to stress over low-high mixups, and both characters can kill each other off of an opening here. Fox's CGs vs Falco's death combos, both of which are no longer inhibited by shine/aerial edgecancels on platforms. It just simplifies the matchup imo. I'm also somewhat bad on FoD vs Fox but that may be a general problem I have, so I'm not sure what to say about it since I/Falco also get great combos and early finishers there, as well as have that much more exploitation of my uptilt on the lower platforms.


There's a little I'm leaving off about how they each play with momentum but I feel that could get into more human-factor type stuff so I'm not sure what to do with it....plus I still have to talk about tier positions lol.




Tiers:


I keep my opinion on tiers pretty simple. I like it to be about matchups and weight who wins a little less and potential maybe a little less than that. Probably depends on my mood lol.


I believe that Fox is higher than Falco on the tier list. I believe Fox has no losing matchups, but he probably goes even with Marth and maybe Falco. Since I believe Falco loses to at least Marth, that would make Fox higher on the tier list in my opinion since Fox has no losing matchups and Falco has at least one.

I believe it despite what results say because I believe in Fox's(or, maybe I should say Fox players') potential to improve and demonstrate this theory. I feel there are more high ranking Fox players than Falco ones, but Falco seems to be more interesting for modern players to play, so they feel compelled to take him farther. I feel like Fox was more interesting back in the day when we had players like KDJ and M2K earlier on pushing Fox and making him look pretty interesting and fun to play. I can't say I've seen a "fun" Fox outside of Mango's or PC's in recent memory, but I believe for the size of our community that plays a fair part in determining who's metagame gets advanced.

That last paragraph can be disregarded if it isn't really a good point or exactly related to tier position objectively. I'd love to hear someone explain what they thought about the idea though if they wanted to take the time. =)
 

ArcNatural

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PP your post was great. The only thing I don't understand is if your taking your play into account or not.

How does the fact that you or Mango beat every single notable Fox with Falco consistently (besides Mango himself I guess) in top tournaments fall into play here? Do you just think you try harder/want it more/just plain better than those foxes?

I don't mean to try to make you sound arrogant, and believe me I'm not falling into the "Jigglypuff" trap (Jiggly numba one no counters beats everyone Mango/Hbox era). Do you believe their will be a time in the future where a Fox (in singles) will consistently win tournaments (hasn't happened since a small run for PC Chris)?
 

Marc

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I believe it despite what results say because I believe in Fox's(or, maybe I should say Fox players') potential to improve and demonstrate this theory. I feel there are more high ranking Fox players than Falco ones, but Falco seems to be more interesting for modern players to play, so they feel compelled to take him farther. I feel like Fox was more interesting back in the day when we had players like KDJ and M2K earlier on pushing Fox and making him look pretty interesting and fun to play. I can't say I've seen a "fun" Fox outside of Mango's or PC's in recent memory, but I believe for the size of our community that plays a fair part in determining who's metagame gets advanced.

That last paragraph can be disregarded if it isn't really a good point or exactly related to tier position objectively. I'd love to hear someone explain what they thought about the idea though if they wanted to take the time. =)
I think it's definitely true that more popular characters are advanced faster, especially if they have a character "champion" winning it big on a somewhat consistent basis. Furthermore, it seems like we're at a point where matchups across the board don't really matter anymore and most competitive players are fishing from a pool of about 10 characters. These characters are still progressing, but the lower half of the tier list seems to be in a state of relative neglect with fewer mains on a high level. Personally I think a character like Peach would have more trouble in an environment of equal character representation, though you could argue that even in the current restricted metagame only Armada really wins it big with her.

The topic has moved considerably towards the Fox vs Falco matchup itself, a matchup that I'm mostly an onlooker for. Casually I do play space animals and I've experienced the matchup a lot both ways, but it's not really the basis for my opinion on it. It seems to me that Fox should have the theoretical advantage because of his sheer mobility and potential for early kills/gimps, but in practice Falco seems to have a slight edge when it comes to notable wins. Calling it even wouldn't be blasphemy, as you can make arguments for both sides. It is my belief that Fox still has further to go, perhaps moreso than Falco, so we'll have to revisit the topic one or two years from now.

Across the board I don't think Fox has any matchups worse than even and he's probably the best in NTSC. Not so sure about PAL (the top players in my scene are all Jigglypuff believers), but I do know that I wouldn't put Falco above #3 in either version.
 

Dr Peepee

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PP your post was great. The only thing I don't understand is if your taking your play into account or not.

How does the fact that you or Mango beat every single notable Fox with Falco consistently (besides Mango himself I guess) in top tournaments fall into play here? Do you just think you try harder/want it more/just plain better than those foxes?

I don't mean to try to make you sound arrogant, and believe me I'm not falling into the "Jigglypuff" trap (Jiggly numba one no counters beats everyone Mango/Hbox era). Do you believe their will be a time in the future where a Fox (in singles) will consistently win tournaments (hasn't happened since a small run for PC Chris)?
That's a rather complicated question inherently, but I'll keep it simple and say that it's because Mango and I are better I think. I mean, Mango's Fox is his best character(he claims) when he's not burnt out on Fox, even though he played Falco for a very long time and advanced so much of Falco's game on his own. The skill transferred just fine from Falco to Fox, but I would argue that because Fox is a better character it allows Mango to perform better with him overall in a tournament environment.

I don't want to say much else about that and intentionally avoided mentioning myself much in my post because I don't like making myself the basis of an argument(even if I arguably deserve it) because it feels too arrogant.

And on the future comment, that is all up to the Fox players really. Their character is fully capable of dominating tournaments, but it is a matter of who is willing to put in that effort with tech skill and standard innovation that will really put this theory to the test. Mango has honestly started to go down that road I think, as I watch pools of him from Genesis 2 that were mostly Fox, as well as his main choice throughout most of the finals matches. Maybe he'll continue to do so and prove that Fox can go it alone even if he doesn't quite do it, or maybe it will be PC coming all the way back to this metagame that can demonstrate Fox's potential once more.

I think it's definitely true that more popular characters are advanced faster, especially if they have a character "champion" winning it big on a somewhat consistent basis. Furthermore, it seems like we're at a point where matchups across the board don't really matter anymore and most competitive players are fishing from a pool of about 10 characters. These characters are still progressing, but the lower half of the tier list seems to be in a state of relative neglect with fewer mains on a high level. Personally I think a character like Peach would have more trouble in an environment of equal character representation, though you could argue that even in the current restricted metagame only Armada really wins it big with her.

The topic has moved considerably towards the Fox vs Falco matchup itself, a matchup that I'm mostly an onlooker for. Casually I do play space animals and I've experienced the matchup a lot both ways, but it's not really the basis for my opinion on it. It seems to me that Fox should have the theoretical advantage because of his sheer mobility and potential for early kills/gimps, but in practice Falco seems to have a slight edge when it comes to notable wins. Calling it even wouldn't be blasphemy, as you can make arguments for both sides. It is my belief that Fox still has further to go, perhaps moreso than Falco, so we'll have to revisit the topic one or two years from now.

Across the board I don't think Fox has any matchups worse than even and he's probably the best in NTSC. Not so sure about PAL (the top players in my scene are all Jigglypuff believers), but I do know that I wouldn't put Falco above #3 in either version.
Hm yeah I always forget about PAL tier positions, but if everyone gets nerfed I figure it kind of evens out anyway, though I suppose that upsmash being nerfed along with his recovery is probably more severe than what most characters lose in the transition. I doubt I'd give Fox anything below #2 in PAL though just because his overall mobility and potential camping/gimping/regular basically game is still really good even if he can't kill or recover quite as well as he can in NTSC.
 

Marc

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The degrees to which they are nerfed are somewhat different:
-Jigglypuff wasn't nerfed at all in PAL, making her relatively better.
-Fox is lighter, several moves were weakened and his up+B was shortened and has less fire on it.
-Falco's spike doesn't always spike, makes combos a little harder.
-Sheik's downthrow doesn't have the same angle, meaning no guaranteed free hits out of it without having to tech chase, which is also harder (you seem to have less time to react).
-Marth is lighter, dair is a meteor instead of a spike, though at least he falls down when Fox shines him.
-Peach has, eh, a weaker dash attack I think. :p

But yeah, I'd say that Fox was nerfed the most out of the top characters. I'd still put him at #2 as well though and so would many other players, as his basics are still intact.
 

KirbyKaze

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They also gave him Falco's shine so he can do shine > 9 combos consistently because they decided Oil Panic was glitchy.
 

Tekk

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I think we can't tell about Puff being #1 in PAL yet, simply because there isn't any top Puff players in Europe (except maybe Infernum, but he can't really go to majors).
From my perspective, though, I'd say Fox is still the best character in the game.
Also, I think the top players Marc mentioned are biased because of a lack of Puff experience.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I think fox would still be the best, simply because of his speed and versatility. He would still be my choice of character, at least.
 

Marc

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PAL not having many Puff players makes it rather theoretical, but at the same time not really when you consider how well Puff already does in NTSC. Unless you want to contest that she has an easier time in PAL, she is definitely up there. Furthermore, when we voted for a PAL tier list, the top players voting Puff highly were the ones who went to the US and thus had more experience against the character (Amsah for example played Hungrybox in tournament). The regional differences were rather notable and in the end the PAL tier list had a very close top tier with Puff at #3 after Fox and Sheik. Perhaps we should do another by the end of 2011 though, as Puff's dominance in the metagame has diminished a little and Europe joined the Falco bandwagon in recent times.

Personally I would say Fox or Jigglypuff (theory vs practice) > Falco > Sheik > Marth > Peach for top tier in PAL right now, though I sometimes change my mind.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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i think this discussion is beyond the scope of this thread. Perhaps we should start a new thread for tier list discussion?
 

Marc

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It's your fault. :p I apologize for continuing the tangent, feel free to edit/remove my posts.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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i know it is :p i was gonna reply in suit, but then decided to save my opinion for the real thread. Cactus, chop chop!
 

Cactuar

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All post removals will be done prior to moving the thread into the public eye.

aka

I don't feel like it right now. Or even soon. So I'll let future me deal with it. Future me is responsible and hard working.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I wish i could tell that to my assembler teacher

"yeah i know you asked me for a program that reads some data and outputs the sum and difference and few other things, but this is ASM... i'll just wait til this class is over and write it in C++ instead."
 
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