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MBR Weekly(ish?) Discussions - Fox vs Falco

HyugaRicdeau

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MBR Weekly(ish?) Discussions

Topic: Fox vs Falco


Okay, let's see how this turns out. Remember that the goal of these is to connect with the community and generate discussion and interest in the game. People are interested to know how the veterans not only see the metagame, but how they discuss it amongst one another, so let's put on a good show.

Present and defend your opinions on the matchup, their relative position in the tier list, their costume options, and so on.

I have in recent months been convinced of the opinion that Falco should be top of top tier. We all know that yes, if Fox is played flawlessly, he is almost untouchable, and the tier list should be some kind of synthesis of potential and results, but how long are we going to wait for Fox to dominate national tournament results before we put the theory aside in favor of the empirical evidence? Also, the Fox vs Falco matchup itself should feature prominently in the discussion of who is the better overall character.

Also, I for one find original/blue Falco completely unplayable.
 

Strong Badam

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I feel like Falco's ability to set the pace in any given matchup and limit the effectiveness of movement itself, which is the source of approaching, spacing, and almost anything outside of the ledge game, so strongly is uncanny. Even against a player proficient at powershielding, empty shorthops and fakeout lasers make it more of a mixup as opposed to a guaranteed counter to lasers.
And that isn't considering his other options. He has the best combo ability in the game, and is versatile on stages with platforms. Fox's combos are generally interrupted by platforms more often than they are helped. The opposite is true for Falco.
Though his recovery is worse, his weight is higher, so it isn't as bad as most believe. Fox with Falco recovery would be worse than Falco in recovering.

Recovery-wise, Falco's clearly pails in comparison, but like Fox he at least has options between phantasm and firebird. He still has a decent recovery

Falco is just marginally better at applying pressure, punishing, etc. than Fox is. The main argument I can see in Fox's favor is his Dash Dance. As the metagame evolved, Fox's shine tricks became less effective than they were and Falco's got better (see: mango's shine jump shine waveland combos on platforms).

They're still pretty close in tournament viability, though, in my opinion. Falco then Fox.

:phone:
 

Zankoku

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Falco definitely has a stronger set of traits for winning without expending extreme levels of effort compared to Fox. His lasers, powerful hitboxes that let him just outright win in many attack vs attack situations, very low short hop, very high full hop, frame 1 launcher, and overall focus on horizontally-based killing blows in an environment heavily populated by fast-fallers are all notable advantages.

The disadvantages to counterbalance this and prevent Falco from just completely outclassing Fox are:
Slower ground movement speed (and, oddly enough, a faster walking speed than running)
Longer jump startup
Less attack range on Shine
Far less recovery distance on Up+B/Side+B
(Relatively) lacking vertical KO power
Less impressive blue costume color
Lacking guaranteed high-percent KO setup compared to Fox's waveshine > usmash? (which itself doesn't work on space animals or Puff)
 

SleepyK

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The matchup itself is very close imo. I remember talking to Lambchops about it a lot and he even placed it at "something like 51-49 or 50.5 to 49.5 or even smaller in fox's favor."

He never fully explained to me why the matchup was in fox's favor but I've found that due to fox's ground speed, he is more than capable of taking advantage of falco's issue with transitioning between spacing and pressure game. Fox is able to break falco's "comfort zone" in between his pew pew and spinny kick shine grab aerial attack kill die

As stated prior and as it will be stated in the future, just playing falco to the "metagame" is easier and more rewarding than playing fox to it due to his priority and all that stuff thing.

also falco's red jacket is where it's at

and fox's green one is the one
 

Fortress | Sveet

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The match-up can be summarized as the best character at escaping against the best character at controlling movement which makes the match-up quite interesting. With similar damage outputs and edge guarding potentials it will always be very even, but I value mobility and speed and find it quite rewarding in this match-up, so I think fox has a slight advantage. In my experience a fox player spacing and poking primarily with shine is very difficult for falco to handle due to the lack of a solid commit to punish safely as well as the speed and effective range. Hitting falco with spacing shines is also more rewarding than it is in any other match-up unless perhaps falco players begin option selecting techs haha
 

Marc

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Falco seems more consistent as a tournament character than Fox, which I believe has a lot to do with his relatively easy stage control through restraining movement. It might also be the fact that he seems more popular in both the US and Europe and the more people are pushing a character's metagame, the faster it will advance. I don't think he has any crippling matchups, but an argument could be made for (slightly) losing matchups to Peach, Jiggs and Fox IMO. I've always considered his matchup with Sheik to be pretty even and he seems to outright **** Marth currently, but the problem there is that Marth doesn't have too many top players backing him anymore. Doesn't really matter, my point is that Fox has an arguably better matchup spread, as at least theoretically I don't think he loses to anyone.

I also think it's a bit of a myth that Fox is too hard technically to take through an entire tournament at this point of the metagame. Seeing Zgetto play in tournaments I never get the impression he has some sort of technical breakdown as it progresses and he himself has commented before that it's not hard for him to play solo Fox all day. Of course, he's an extremely good and dedicated player who excels in the technical department, but players like Jman are also consistent in their placings. It's just that there are less top level champions for Fox than Falco, or so it seems. Mango's showing at Genesis 2 with Fox was very impressive and if he keeps that up, you might actually see Fox winning nationals in the upcoming years and have practice match theory.

I still believe Fox to be better than Falco.
 

leffen

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I see fox as a better character, and not by that little either. Primarily because Fox has much better match up spread, especially at top levels. With time I see fox only become stronger and stronger as people become more consistent with his tech skill.

Lets compare their matchups shall we?
(60-40 is more or less; is usually considered to be at worst even for fox)


FOX
Fox-Falco: Around 55-50 in Fox's favor, I don't think any Top level player thinks that falco has a big advantage anymore.
Fox-Puff: Around 60-40
Fox-Sheik: Around 60-40

Fox-Marth: Around even
Fox-Peach:60-40
Fox-CF:60-40
FALCO
Falco-Fox:50-45
Falco-Puff:Even to puff's advantage
Falco-Sheik: Around even.

Falco-Marth: Around even
Falco-Peach:Even to Peach's advantage
Falco-CF:60-40
If you even remotely agree with these numbers I can't see how you can argue that Falco is fighting with anything but results.

And lets take a look at the results:
Genesis bracket had ~8 players that used Fox and with top placements at 2nd, 5th, 9th and 13th. Falco had 4-5 players with top placements at 2nd (Mango used fox for his most important wins/matches)and then PP at 7th.

Pound V had 13(!!) fox players compared to 4 falco players. Yes, a falco won, but a Peach won genesis and peach did better overall at G2 than Falco did at Pound V, so I honestly don't think you can use Pound V results in favor of Falco.

Apex 2010 also had Fox preform better.

Fox dominated DGDTJ, MIST, ROM3 and Zenith.

Europe: In europe fox is doing MUCH better than falco. Fox was played by 14 players in the bracket versus 7 falco users at BEAST 2. Fox usually dominates falco at every big european tournament >_>

Just a fyi if you thought falco outperformed fox loool.
As for Falco being easier to play than fox, I'd honestly say that its just bias and its overall, almost irrelevant. Neither of them is that hard to play in today's metagame and if you actually camp/play safe with Fox you'll find out that its not that hard.


Oh and he totally ****ing annihilates doubles lol.
(sorry for the messy layout)
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Those are some really solid facts leffen. The CRL basically showed the same data that is being casually shown here; fox does better overall in tournament even if falco players get more attention. The CRL is about a year outdated, but in the 6 months I was keeping it up to date Fox was staying roughly double the CRL points of the next highest characters (which were falco and puff).
 

Marc

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How many of those were Fox solo mains though? As I've pointed out when I facetiously noted that 7 players out of Pound 4's top 8 used Fox at some point during the tournament, Fox is a universally appealing pocket character.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I can't give you a direct statistic for that. For the most part, i only listed players mains unless the TO notified me that they went fox for that tournament, and while so many TOs helped out, it was not the norm. If you'd like, I could go back through my database file for more information on that.
 

Marc

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Well, I would be interested in seeing how many solo Falco mains place as opposed to solo Fox mains. It could very well be that it doesn't really matter, but from what I'm seeing Fox tends to contribute to success a lot as a secondary or co-main.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I wrote an addition to my program to output information on solo mains, but i seem to be stuck on an old/modified version i had modified for a friend to use with brawl+. The up to date melee version is on my currently dead laptop. Im already about an hour behind schedule with things today, so i have to get moving, but i'll try to either fix my laptop or un-modify the version i have on my desktop so i can get you that information (my tournament database file is in tact, luckily)
 

Redd

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Overall I feel like foxes have always done better... mainly because everyone mained him. Back in the day (2005-2006), there were a few good falcos and then you'd only see ridiculous amounts of Fox and Marth. Mainly talking about Zanguzen and PC and DA Dave to an extent. And Dope.

Fox has an easy learning curve at the beginning, but gets harder later to improve.
Falco has a harder learning curve at the start... but then things kinda just flow.

Keep in mind that's more opinion, but after religiously watching the community for 7 years, it's what I've seen.

Falco vs. Fox has always been stage dependent to me. Fox wins on FD due to CGing. Falco can control better on DL. Etc.

I'll add more later.. hard to put thoughts when people have said so much already!

Falco costume tier list
--------------------------
Green
Normal
Blue
Red (LOL)

Fox costume tier list
------------------------
Blue
Green
Red
Normal
 

Redd

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No.. not really. I used to play red fox originally. My tag is "Red dragon" shortened but I never tell anyone.

MOAR MBR SECRETZ
 

Zankoku

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No.. not really. I used to play red fox originally. My tag is "Red dragon" shortened but I never tell anyone.

MOAR MBR SECRETZ
Aren't we going to be publishing this thread to the community when we're done? You're doomed.
 

Strong Badam

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I like green on both characters. My backup is neutral.
 

Strong Badam

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I don't see how Falco possibly wins the matchup tbh. Fox's green costume clearly gives him the edge.
 

SuperMatt

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i think it's a close enough to even matchup that it comes down to playing style and stage knowledge to determine who will win

like for example some falcos like to take foxes to FD because they know it's a good stage and they are confident they won't get (chain)grabbed...and other falcos ban that stage and prefer to go to yoshi's or something with platforms to combo on

i think in the end I would give a slight edge to fox due to his greatness at avoiding hits using his speed and mobility
 

unknown522

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I think falco both wins the matchup and is a better character overall. The ability to control characters, and set the pace thanks to numerous things to watch out for makes him overall better and much easier to use.

There are only really 2 ranges to watch out for as falco:
- when it's safe to laser
- when it's not safe to laser

Even when you are lasering an opponent, a lot of times the opponent PSing, or playing a good shield game doesn't matter. The fact that they have to stop moving thanks to the laser still lets falco control the pace. Not to forget that he can simply SH over low/mid PS'd lasers. Going over and around the lasers are also a bad idea thanks to a good u-tilt, and b-air. Also approaching from platforms don't wort too well because some of his SH aerials go through most platforms, then the other stages (like DL64) has too high of a gap, which will let falco have enough time to position and set up his moves. The only real exception is like Marth's sword for all this, but yeah. What's even better for falco is that if you hit a laser close enough, you get a free combo anyway. The laser makes edgeguarding easier as well, as it can snipe jumps and/or force the opponent to recover low. The d-air is also a more convenient killing tool than the shine for these reasons:

- Stronger move
- hitbox lasts for a long time
- the weak hit kills (in NTSC at least)
- more range

Fox's shine if obviously ridiculously broken as well, but you have to either time it really well, or abuse ledge invincibility. Also, if the opponent recovers high, then fox can't shoot them down with lasers to force them low, or to control them to where he wants them to go.

Falco's high priority d-air, and stonger shine make up for close pressure. Also, most random hits lead to an automatic combo, even with low reaction time. If you land a random shine during your pressure with fox, then that's probably all you're gonna get unless you predicted that they were going to get hit at that moment.

Fox's main selling point is that he is leagues faster than falco, and the fact that he can use his speed to maneuver around the opponents moves to work his way inside using his tools like Dash Dancing and Wavedashes. Still, it is undeniable that fox lacks range and still can get walled by characters that have fast enough mobility and high range to keep up with his speed. It is definitely much better to have the ability to remove this wall with lasers, while being at frame advantage whether they hit or not. Also the ability to slow down/stop characters with said lasers makes the whole speed thing not matter much when comparing these characters.

If they try to camp falco, camp them back. They're just going to take damage and risk falco getting in on them.

Edit: I almost forgot to add that falco's gameplay is really solid and he can do the same thing in almost every matchup really effectively (I guess not vs himself kind of?)

Anyways, I've wrote this comparison way too many times.


Rough Matchup comparison IMO:

Falco v Fox 6-4
Falco v Sheik 5-5
Falco v Marth 5-5
Falco v Jiggs 5-5
Falco v Peach 5-5
Falco v Falcon 7-3
Falco v ICs 6-4
Falco v Ganon 7-3
then w/e

Fox v sheik 5-5
Fox v Marth 4-6
Fox v Jiggs 6-4
Fox v Peach 6-4
fox v Falcon 6-4
Fox v ICs 6-4
Fox v Ganon 6-4
then w/e

I think they average out roughly the same for matchups, falco beats fox head-to-head
 

KirbyKaze

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I don't really agree with the number of characters you say "Fox can literally never approach this character or get in on them if they play correctly". But I won't deny the ability to remove walls via projectile-assisted approaches is superior to movement-based fake outs.
 

LLDL

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Falco definitely has more options and should technically beat fox in the head to head matchup, but whenever I see two players of the same level play a fox v falco matchup, the fox usually has the upper hand. Fox punishes harder with shine out of shield. Falco has to combo out of it which isn't always guaranteed. Fox can just chase the DI and grab, up smash, or pretty much whatever he wants.
 

KirbyKaze

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While I won't deny that Fox's shine OOS is probably better because of its better range and speed, I certainly think Falco's shine is better on hit. Free, automatic combos are better than tech chases, IMO.
 

leffen

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I think falco both wins the matchup and is a better character overall. The ability to control characters, and set the pace thanks to numerous things to watch out for makes him overall better and much easier to use.
I've always hated when people use "easier to use" as a criteria. Its really unrelevant, the only thing that matters is who has it easier to win.
There are only really 2 ranges to watch out for as falco:
- when it's safe to laser
- when it's not safe to laser
These are just general pointers, there are 2000 more factors to count in that makes this more or less viable. Is it favorable to laser [even though its safe] is usually a better question. Unless they are in the air, I rarely find it optimal.

Even when you are lasering an opponent, a lot of times the opponent PSing, or playing a good shield game doesn't matter. The fact that they have to stop moving thanks to the laser still lets falco control the pace.
Yes, falco controls the pace IF he is able to get away with a 19+ frame startup. And its pace control is extremely overrated. First off, its worse at forcing approaches than Fox's (you have to be really fkn stupid/biased to argue otherwise) but its strength comes in the form of lockdown.
The lockdown is however, really overrated. It has minimal stun (a lot of people are just too afraid of taking the damage) and the same ammount of lockdown it causes can be reversed by a ONE FRAME move (shield) that has NO lag (compared to a 19+frame startup with falco).
Falco is also horrible at dealing with his own lasers, he gets way more punished than from taking a PS'd laser than he gains by hitting one on the majority of the cast, he has a bad PS and he has pretty bad movement.
Not to forget that he can simply SH over low/mid PS'd lasers.
Low lasers = more than DL side platform of length away, even more if he wants dash moementum.
Mid lasers = Falco cannot short hop over anything that is even close to *medium* height lasers and most "low" ones that arent completely perfect require more around half of dreamlands lenght to short jump over.
Remember, falco is very vulnerable for the 22 startup frames [low lasers] , especially to jump ins since these will not be hit even if he gets his laser out in time . When he actually can jump over reflected lasers the opponent will be lagless long before falco can jump.
Going over and around the lasers are also a bad idea thanks to a good u-tilt, and b-air.
First off, you dont have to approach him just cause you go over and/or arround him. You can jump over lasers and punish his ground/sh approaches (for example, sheik sh over lasers, fair if falco approaches) which is pretty much 100% safe and you can still be in range to punish a new shl [nonretreated]/ whiffed uptilt without being endangered yourself.
The uptilt has considerable lag and suffers from mobility issues (you cannot move around with the uptilt good enought to match most aerial approaches) and the bair suffers from things really, they both rely on the opponent approaching you carelessly, which powershielding and other shizzle is able to prevent.
Also approaching from platforms don't wort too well because some of his SH aerials go through most platforms, then the other stages (like DL64) has too high of a gap, which will let falco have enough time to position and set up his moves. The only real exception is like Marth's sword for all this, but yeah.
When people go on platforms [when dealing with lasers] falco is forced to fortfeit huge amounts of stagecontrol to battle their approaches. Falco's mobility/lack of range doesnt allow him to battle good platform movement as well as the other top tiers/falcon.
What's even better for falco is that if you hit a laser close enough, you get a free combo anyway.
Approaching lasers are a huge risk and generally, suck fkn ****. PS/jumping over it/intercepting it is way too easy and it only really gives you a decent award if the opponent is brain dead and lets you land in shine range.
The laser makes edge guarding easier as well, as it can snipe jumps and/or force the opponent to recover low
I think its really overrated as a edge guarding tool. It has way to long startup (you can see him jumping up to laser [esp FHL] and you can just get around it by (shine)stalling and/or using it to aid your recovery) and has too little reward.
Lets see what characters lasers are usually used on when edgeguarding:
Fox: Yes, though you can get around it easily if you just react to his jump. The only times you should be hit by a laser is if you are UP-B'ing where falco cannot hit you and then you lose still dont lose any height from the laser[no hitstun, only hitlag]and are now able to choose another option.
Sheik: Worthless.
Jigglypuff: Worthless.
Marth: Worthless.
Peach: Worthless
Falcon: Worthless.
ICs: Worthless.
Ganondorf: Worthless
Samus: Worthless
Dr Mario. Worthless.
Pikachu: Worthless
Luigi:Worthless
Mario:Worthless.
DK: Worthless.
Link: Worthless.
Young Link: Worthless
Zelda:Worthless
Mewtwo: Worthless.
Roy: Worthless
Yoshi: Worthless.
GAW: Worthless.
Ness. Decent.
Bowser: Decent
Kirby: Worthless
Pichu: Worthless

*Realizes hes talking to a fox main* Oh I see.
The d-air is also a more convenient killing tool than the shine for these reasons:

- Stronger move LOL'D. Shine kills at 0% and cannot be tech'd.
- hitbox lasts for a long time Great, easier to tech.
- the weak hit kills (in NTSC at least)
- more range wrong.

Fox's shine if obviously ridiculously broken as well, but you have to either time it really well, or abuse ledge invincibility. Also, if the opponent recovers high, then fox can't shoot them down with lasers to force them low, or to control them to where he wants them to go.
Jesus, You just fail. Not only does falco have real troubles with edgeguarding all of the higher tiers except for Falcon, HE CANNOT FORCE HIS OPPONENT OFFSTAGE TO GIMP PPL.
Having to abuse ledge invincibility with shine is LESS important than doing it with falcos dair since Fox can actually move outside of the stage. Oh and Fox doesnt have to force people low, if he shines ANYONE offstage without a jump they are dead.

Falco's high priority d-air, and stonger shine make up for close pressure. Also, most random hits lead to an automatic combo, even with low reaction time. If you land a random shine during your pressure with fox, then that's probably all you're gonna get unless you predicted that they were going to get hit at that moment.
Again, easier to play ****. Fox has 40times better shield pressure because of his grab, falcos just sucks which is why he even has to resort to using aerials and shines when he knows his opponent is gonna shield. + you forgot fox being faster as in less lag and faster startup.

Fox's main selling point is that he is leagues faster than falco, and the fact that he can use his speed to maneuver around the opponents moves to work his way inside using his tools like Dash Dancing and Wavedashes. Still, it is undeniable that fox lacks range and still can get walled by characters that have fast enough mobility and high range to keep up with his speed. It is definitely much better to have the ability to remove this wall with lasers, while being at frame advantage whether they hit or not. Also the ability to slow down/stop characters with said lasers makes the whole speed thing not matter much when comparing these characters.
Fox doesnt have to approach. This is what makes him win over every other character in the game. To those who can outcamp him [falco only] he will win by being MUCH faster/better close range and to those who can outspace him [Marth, Sheik, Jigglypuff] he break their walls by forcing them to approach.

If they try to camp falco, camp them back. They're just going to take damage and risk falco getting in on them.
And if they platform camp/powershield?

Edit: I almost forgot to add that falco's gameplay is really solid and he can do the same thing in almost every matchup really effectively (I guess not vs himself kind of?)
sigh. I guess Bowser is the best since his best playstyle is the same versus everybody!

@4-6 Fox-Marth, 7-3 Falco-CF.
:embarrass:


A lot of people say that "Falco forces you to play his game". He does, but so does every character. People have just played Fox enough that its considered your normal playstyle.
 

joeplicate

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i still think fox wins the matchup, but it's close



the way i see it, fox is better at spacing and poking, but falco has a better punishment game

Falco's shine is ******** good, once it hits. Nobody disputes this; falco's shine forms the basis of his punishment game. He sends you up, he kicks you down. He sends you up again, jumps on a platform, sends you up, you die, etc. His combos are super damaging, demoralizing, and they usually lead into an edgeguard. They're extremely hard to SDI out of, and even then there are variations to counter this; nair instead of dair again, upair/upsmash after a shine, bair to carry you out over the edge, and so on.

Fox has a great punish game, but it's not as good as falco's. You get a grab, and you upthrow. Depending on percent, you follow his DI for the upsmash (or do a standing upsmash, if they're too low to DI). Then you have to run to where he lands, and react to the tech--if he techs in place or misses, you get another upsmash or grab, forwards or backwards you need to dash in their direction and do another jc upsmash. Then the option tree gets bogger, depending on platforms and their DI. On FD, you can do a full-hop bair or nair (or two, if you start from the middle of the stage). On smaller stages like Yoshi's story, they're probably out over the edge, so you switch to edgeguarding. On dreamland or battlefield, you might have sent them up to a platform, which has its own way to follow up.

For fox, I feel like once you get the opening, you need to move QUICK to maximize your punishment. Most of fox's nasty combos you see on youtube have at least 2 or 3 clutch instances of tech chasing in them. You need to harness control of the match if you want to punish as hard as you possibly can; you need to scare falco into going where you want, then react extremely well. That's the only way he matches falco's punishment game. Once falco lands a shine, the control of the match just gets handed to him on a silver platter. Most importantly, you can combo fox WITHOUT giving him any chances to escape. It's more "guaranteed," in a street-fighter sense. I feel that he doesn't have to work as hard to keep the combo going.

(The only exception would be FD, since the option trees are comparably simple, and getting chaingrabbed sucks.)



Fox wins the movement game, though.

He's got a faster dash speed, which helps a LOT. If you look at the individual moves that Peepee/Jman use to maneuver and space, Peepee has to work more. He constantly dashes into a wavedash, since that's the only way to move as fast as he wants in certain situations. Fox can "get by" with just dash-dancing. When you crank up the speed of the match, all the way up to cracked-out pro level playing, Fox has more tools to space faster. The mobility advantage he has over falco makes it easier.

But what about lasers? Don't they cut off options/**** fox/control the stage?

If you space correctly vs falco, you never give him the chance to shoot a laser. If fox is right there, either hovering in the air above falco from a fullhop, or waiting just outside falco's bair/nair/grab range, Falco can't shoot a laser without putting himself in danger. If falco short hops into the air to go for a laser, fox can rush in with a nair to stuff his face. He shines after, and gets control of the match. If fox is in the air, in his wonderful, amazing, viable full hop, he can react to a poorly spaced laser and punish with any aerial (and drill to beat crouch canceling). Same goes for platforms; fox can punish with a drop thru bair, or fullhop from a platform and react to a bad laser. Lasers just don't seem like that big of a problem to me; the real trouble comes when falco wins every exchange when you try to approach, but that's a different skill altogether.

Falco is great at keeping fox out, but once fox is in, he's there to stay.
SHLs are great at keeping fox away, but that's it. After you get sent to the other side of the stage (say, from a forward smash at mid %), you need to deal with 3 or 4 lasers before you can get back up in falco's face. Both characters can play *****y and make it hard for the other to approach; I'd say falco is slightly better at this, but the difference is negligible. Fox's shine OOS is awesome at swatting falco away again and again. Both characters have a lot of tools to piss each other off. They tie at playing campy, since they're both good at it. Falco's lasers and fox's fast OOS game balance out, imo.


Once fox is in the space he wants to be at, he really has the upper hand. If fox catches falco doing something he shouldn't, he approaches for free. Any bad laser and he gets in (like I described earlier). Basically, if falco throws out any move, fox can come in with his super sick dash speed.

Once he's in, fox has a clear advantage. I think that a lot of foxes play the matchup dumb in close quarters, and they shield pressure just to hit falco's shield because they like the feeling, or something. It's too risky (and dumb) to try to nair on top of falco over and over; shine OOS will **** you. Switch your perspective from "hit this bird's shield as many times as possible" to "land as many SAFE hits as possible, and be ready to move after one hits to follow up." Whenever it feels like I'm shield pressuring right, it's because I'm trying to poke effectively, over and over. Fox's bair outranges all of falco's moves. If you use them in the right situations, nair and downtilt are totally safe, too. If you're in hot water, you can cover your bases with a shine. There is almost always a way to hit falco's shield and be totally safe afterwards.


As a comparison:
Falco's shield pressure is harder to pull off, since he's not as fast; it's higher risk, higher reward. Fox has a quicker shine OOS, and a better upsmash OOS, so he can get falco off of his shield easier. If he messes up though, falco will land a shine and get a huge punish off of it.

Fox, on the other hand, has a lot of safe ways to hit Falco's shield, and since he's got faster movement speed, he can space himself easier than falco can. If you stay in the right space, Fox gets a lot more free, safe hits on shield. And, if you're smart about it, you shouldn't be punished for any of these. Try to land a poke, and then put yourself in the space that falco wants. Fox has an easier time of this, since he's got faster movement speed.





tl;dr
fox has a slight advantage when it comes to movement, following up, and approaching. falco has a notable advantage when it comes to punishing, since his shine combos are more guaranteed. fox has an advantage in the shield pressure game, but only if you're smart about it. shield pressuring like a dummy will get you punished quick, and falco's got the better punishment game.


:D
this post took me like 2 hours lol

those are my thoughts
i feel like the matchup really boils down to those things, and fox has a slight advantage that he can push all game. i'd call it 55-45 for fox.
 

chaddd

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 15, 2006
Messages
1,485
I've always hated when people use "easier to use" as a criteria. Its really unrelevant, the only thing that matters is who has it easier to win.
I can't really agree with this statement. If you've ever been even slightly nervous while playing a match with a lot on the line you know that performing well with Fox becomes much more difficult. Due to the speed of input required for Fox vs Falco, the overall tendency for Fox to make mistakes is much higher the more 'on edge' the player is.

Also this is a variable that effects the overall performance of all Fox and Falco players in tournament. Falco has a much easier time forcing movements out of players than Fox does, due entirely to his lasers having stun.

I believe the match up is almost exactly even. Fox has things like chain grabbing and shine edge guard, where as Falco has a much easier time chaining combo strings together against Fox. It's definitely a match up that I feel comes down to how experienced both players are against the opposing character.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,260
Location
Northern IL
This has been going on for like 2 weeks now, at what point are we going to release this to the general boards? Maybe someone could summarize the general discussion briefly, covering the different points of views that have been presented, and after that post move the thread to the main boards (minus posts like this one and other posts that break the 4th wall, ect)
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I want leffen to explain why Falco's lasers are worthless for edgeguarding against everyone but Bowser, Ness, and Fox.

Oh, and why he's bad at edgeguarding the top characters minus Falcon.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
2,032
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Lol @ KK. Falco bad at edgeguarding. What a riot.
I didnt say falco was bad at edgeguarding, he isnt (~5th ingame imo). I did however say that he sucks at GIMPING because he cannot force the opponent offstage at low% esp comparing with fox.

@KK Link me one set where lasers actually DO something vs a top tier thats not falco or fox. I watched through all of PP's high end matches and couldnt find one edgeguard where it did more than damage. 99% they just missed (not as in cut of space, MISSED)/canceled opponents lag.

@Chaddd: Uh, I dont even wanna start that discussion. Just consider the fact that there is no active fox only main in the top, so of course Falco mains are gonna seem more consistent with their tech skill. Oh and if you look at Zgetto vs me I suffered from way more technical struggles than he did ;o.
 
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