MBR Recommended SL+RS Discussion

[Fortress | Sveet]

What do people think of the old MLG stage choice method? If we are moving towards a ruleset that ends up using all legal stages, it might be worth evaluating. For those who don't remember I believe the way it worked was that the first stage was random however each player was allowed to reset the random once. I think there may have been other variations where each player was allowed to simply remove a stage from the random (in case it happened to get randomed twice). If the set is going to use all legal stages, is there a point in stage striking or could a system like this save valuable time and energy with the same ends?

 

[ArcNatural]

I don't really understand the removal of Brinstar and RC from with seemingly no input or vote from a majority of the MBR. I'm aware that it has been discussed but no real vote has been used.

As such I strongly disagree with this ruleset.

Whats the point in even having our debate on the removal of CPS and Neutrals if your just removing two of them in the first place?

Don't know why there is a MBR if their are no collective votes/decisions. I had no idea this was even up for being public as there was no vote on the matter.

 

[Redd]

I am MORE content with this than the previous ruleset, for both singles and doubles. I have never felt as though this game needed RC or Brinstar.

Though that's not to say I'm completely content... I think it's a step in the right direction. However, prepare for a ****storm.

 

[Teczer0]

I can see the argument to add DK64 in doubles yet ban them in singles.

But whats the reason to not allow Brinstar/RC in singles but allow them in doubles?

If the hazards are determined to be game changing enough in singles I don't see why it wouldn't in doubles.

 

[Tekk]

I really like this new ruleset, it's gonna bring a lot of changes in the smash competitive scene, which is refreshing.

I agree with Teczero though, I don't see why you would allow Brinstar/RC in doubles if you ban them in singles. How aren't they game-breaking in doubles ?

 

[Cactuar]

The removal of CPs and Neutrals is a separate discussion.

This sounds kinda hostile, so I'm making sure to point out that this isn't meant to be directed at you Arc, just toward the MBR:

It is a recommended ruleset.

This ruleset in particular is being published for use with Apex/Nationals. The flow of discussion and general practice in large scale tournament is indicative of a reduction in outlier counterpick stages in singles, and without centralized opinion in doubles.

There doesn't need to be collective voting. There needs to be discussion with some consensus on an acceptable flow of change. You aren't back here to only participate in voting. If you aren't participating in the actual discussions going on, I'm not going to count your vote, as you have provided no grounds to make your vote valid. With this in mind, there has not been sufficient contribution from the group as a whole to make a vote worth having.

I wasn't even supposed to be the one doing the ruleset, but, once again, as a group, the MBR failed to contribute. This ruleset has been sitting in the thread for how long?

If you have a problem with something, discuss it. I shouldn't have to send out a group message to call attention to any subject. If the thread dies down and you still don't agree with something, speak up.

I actually made the changes in the doubles/singles ruleset so that someone would speak up, but it was barely noticed/talked about. But suddenly, given this deadline, it is something to talk about.

So, as such, if I see you (Not you Arc, I mean the MBR) whining about something that should have resolved itself weeks/months ago had it been given proper attention, I'm going to tell you to shut up.

That said, I'm not really upset with anyone. Just pointing out why.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Addressing the specific concern with why brinstar/rc would be legal in teams but not singles: I personally think brinstar is too influential and biased towards a few characters to be allowed in singles or teams. I'm undecided on RC. I bundle the two because I try to balance with top/high tiers in mind, and one of those stages affects spacies extremely negatively and the other benefits/doesn't affect them. If I remove one, I will remove both. The only reason they remain in the list is because it hasn't been discussed. With the use of scaling bans, playing on brinstar as a character that is extremely negatively affected will only happen if you are playing a best of 7 set, or you are not educated on the proper use of stage bans.

Scaling bans used in tandem with bundled stages actually allows quite a bit of freedom when it comes to stage legality.

 

[Teczer0]

I really like this new ruleset, it's gonna bring a lot of changes in the smash competitive scene, which is refreshing.

I agree with Teczero though, I don't see why you would allow Brinstar/RC in doubles if you ban them in singles. How aren't they game-breaking in doubles ?

I find it sorta strange you feel it'll bring more change when the 'standard' kind of play is to disregard Brinstar/RC as if it was never there.

I think if you're planning on bringing change, a wider list of stages should be employed, so we can deviate from the sets that are like:

BF > DL64 > YS

Which I feel like I see happen quite a lot.

Personally I wish smashers were more open to more than the main 5-6 stages, just so we can see something else.

Addressing the specific concern with why brinstar/rc would be legal in teams but not singles: I personally think brinstar is too influential and biased towards a few characters to be allowed in singles or teams. I'm undecided on RC. I bundle the two because I try to balance with top/high tiers in mind, and one of those stages affects spacies extremely negatively and the other benefits/doesn't affect them. If I remove one, I will remove both. The only reason they remain in the list is because it hasn't been discussed.

Fair enough I suppose, personally for Apex I think that this is the ruleset we should run, minus Brinstar/RC in doubles. Like I was wondering, I feel like if they are deemed unfair for singles, they are unfair for doubles.

 

[Cactuar]

I don't agree with that. Some stages are banned because of how a single character can avoid another character. This is no longer an issue with two opposing characters.

Just sayin.

 

[Redd]

I feel the "fairness" factor in singles vs. doubles could be a whole 'nother topic.

I personally find CPs much more imbalanced in singles.

EDIT: Cactus da mind readaaaa

 

[ArcNatural]

I understand perfectly Cactuar,

I can just say I disagree as I think the removal of at least Brinstar limits certain characters (namely Peach/Ganon/Falcon) of even having a good balance of neutrals to CP with (as they already have losing matchups on pretty much all the nuetrals vs Fox/Falco anyway). Keeping Brinstar in at least allows better balance to me. The only issue here are the people that took the effort to get a pocket jiggs/peach to use to counter those stages unexpectedly.

That being said I don't think I can prove it any more than you can prove Brinstar/RC having a big enough influence to change tournaments with the current ruleset.

In reality I don't even think this ruleset will change much of what we see today in tournaments anyway. It just removes the niche of pocket jiggs/peach, and essentially removes a Neutral stage for every character providing 1 stage ban is still in effect.

That being said, I'm fine with you enforcing your will and decisions in the MBR since at you said (and I agree with) the MBR sucks with getting things done (and your generally level headed and have a good idea of what balances there should be).

I think I'm quoting Kishprime when I say "Get out of my combos stage!"

If we all bother to remember Ken used to win these things with Marth of all things. Sure we may all be leagues better at this time (not sure if I believe that), but he won with way more stages than we have currently. I'm just worried that we may be losing more variation than what it's worth.

 

[Cactuar]

Lol.

Also, I want to point out the first post in this thread.

THINGS THAT NEED DISCUSSION:
DOUBLES STAGE LIST.

...

I'm shoooooooocked.

/sarcasm.

 

[Teczer0]

I don't agree with that. Some stages are banned because of how a single character can avoid another character. This is no longer an issue with two opposing characters.

Just sayin.

I can agree with that, which is generally why I'm not arguing and am fine with DK64 and Kongo Jungle (Was this supposed to be Jungle Japes? or are you talking about the stage with that giant rock on the right side?).

I should have been more specific really so sorry bout that but, Brinstar nor RC has a huge camping factor.

Brinstar is usually frowned on because of the lava, if there is something else I'd be surprised lol.

Rainbow Cruise is usually frowned on because the stage itself is moving, and the odd platforms.

If run away isn't the factor, the next big factor is the hazards. They affect both singles and doubles in very similar ways.

 

[Cactuar]

Brinstar is a combination of low ceiling, damage hazards, constant onstage interference from stage objects with hurtboxes, ability to drastically alter the stage layout (dividing the platform, changing the angles of side platforms, uneven main platform terrain, and lack of a solid platform base (DK64 style).

You really think it is only the lava? I'm kinda disappointed.

 

[Teczer0]

Brinstar has a relatively high ceiling I thought? Like one under FoD ish.

Also how are you claiming that this would affect doubles less?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Brinstar has janky surfaces as well, in addition to the platforms being able to change and break the stage in half for a bit of time

RC also has a dumb as hell low ceiling.

i got ninja'd, wow.

Run away is a factor though, at least as I see it on RC. It's fairly simply for certain characters to run away on RC in singles but its much harder to do in doubles, 2 more characters make you play it differently.

 

[Cactuar]

I never claimed it would affect doubles less. I think I actually said it should be removed from doubles, I just wanted there to be discussion first.

 

[Teczer0]

Well then I'll go ahead and claim they should be banned or legal for both.

Seeing how its currently banned, and theres no argument atm explaining why it'd be decent for doubles and terribad for singles.

Also, Cactus I know there is A LOT more to Brinstar than that. I'm claiming thats what the masses think lol

 

[Cactuar]

Ah. We totally use the opinion of the masses as a relevant and reliable source of information back here. Like wikipedia. Or a sandwich.


Edit: So, to anyone who has been witnessing the discussion thus far, all agree that RC and Brinstar should be removed from doubles (if they are removed from singles)?

 

[Teczer0]

Wouldn't be surprised if many of us thought it was only because of the lava. =3

 

[ArcNatural]

(Teczero thought it was the lava)

 

[Cactuar]

(agreed)

**

 

[Teczer0]

Man, this guy. Forgets my training partner is the pioneer of Brinstar is amazing with every character.

:<

>:[

sadface

 

[D1]

+1 for removing RC and Brinstar from dubz.

@Teczero you talkin 'bout VanZimus Maximus?

btw in the stickied thread that had the recommended ruleset I noticed for the teams cp stages were:


Brinstar
Kongo Jungle
DK 64
Rainbow Cruise

 

[Teczer0]

Ninja'd and ***** in 2 whole posts. God dammit.

D1 - Of course I am. Who else would feel that Ness does good on Brinstar?

 

[Cactuar]

Yeah, that is supposed to say Jungle Japes. I'll go change it.

@Arc: Forgot to address your post, myb.

The way I view fair is a little different than you. I view fair as maintaining matchup ratios within a certain amount of variation, but centered around a near average of the neutral stages. Players use their characters knowing full well what their advantages/disadvantages are, and what their expected matchups are. A stage having enough influence to drastically change a matchup percentage strikes me as unfair. As such, I really do believe that FD is not a fair stage. It used to be, without a doubt, but with the changes in the way the game is played at its core and the extreme reliance on platform play for characters that would otherwise be low tier (GANON) or stuck with a few unwinnable matchups (vs Projectile characters), it just screams OUTLIER.

I am not the be all end all of opinion though. I am an admitted player vs player purist and actively try to weed out how much influence stages have, which is why I want to have others around me at all times to keep me in check and give me opportunity to reflect on my opinions. I think most people would benefit from having such a group.

Man, I'm getting tired. I gotta get back to doing work.

I'll post more tonight. Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic. Oh wait, I already did.

**

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Am i the only one who disagrees with removing CP stages in doubles?

I agree with cactuar's post earlier on this page about the the domination of characters in 1v1 is not found in the scale of 2v2.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm okay with not removing them on the provision that the bans are scaled.

 

[Redd]

Brinstar... I've never liked because of the allowed stage destruction. The split in the middle is really janky.

Different rulesets for singles and doubles are okay, but I would be fine to remove them completely.

But add Corneria

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think i said this earlier, but i believe many stages that are banned in singles are perfectly fine in doubles, at least conceptually.

KJ64 - big... no solid floor/edge. barrel. spinning central platforms. This is basically as janky as you can get while still fitting into the normal stage mold. Fine in teams.
RC - very well defined, little jank, visual conventions (such as black platforms means you can't pass through)
brinstar - I never really thought about it, but i could see breaking the middle of the stage to be a big problem in teams, more so than in singles. In singles it limits space and gives advantage to the defender if the opponent chooses to cross the gap, but in teams it removes the ability for the partner to help... In the end it would almost have to be either a 1v2 or stall. Never really seen this happen tho. Otherwise the stage is sorta janky when the lava comes up but playable in teams.
Floats - uncompetitive variation of RC. lack of edges and pokemon movements that are intended to disrupt the flow of battle probably would make me say no to this stage.
corneria - actually flows similarly to how it does in singles; fin camping. anti-competitive.
peach's castle - similar to corneria but with more random stuffs.. no thanks
mk2 - really janky. walk off edges, 2 tunnels of dropping death, random stage hazards, uncompetitive.
onett - one of those stages ive always been curious about. I wasnt around when it was legal so i dont have much first hand experience on this, but i dont see anything terrible with it. Actually one of the more competitively designed stages, there are multiple paths around each wall which disallows wall camping to be too strong. low ceiling and potential for wall infinites. I hardly regard this stage as having walk off edges, since that area is generally edgeguard zone not fighting zone IMO.
great bay - i view this stage as being uncompetitive since it promotes not fighting
green greens - layout wise, this stage isn't that bad. big down falls are how close the blastzones are. I could see this being a useable teams stage.


edit- in case anyone cares, i think im actually saying "no" to most of these... lol

 

[hungrybox]

I don't see what's wrong with the current stage list at all.

 

[Cactuar]

Cool story bro.

Edit: Seriously though, explanation or reasoning would be appreciated. That post sounds like mew2king.

 

[Strong Badam]

just trust me guys FD is the BEST stage in tournament it has no bad matchups, there are just no good players using FD.

 

[Cactuar]

And Jigglypuff is the best character trust me i was 4 stocking randomnoob1337's fox every game and then he switched to jigglypuff and was consistently taking a stock off me which obviously shows how broken jigglypuff is and jigglypuff is the best character trust me.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

i'd leave RC but take brinstar off. brinstar has the middle part of the stage that is easily broken, the sides and the randomness of the acid with four players on the screen. way too random with four players on the screen, imo. PvPvE

 

[Cactuar]

I see that you didn't read or are choosing not to address the whole "these counterpicks are bundled because of character balance" thing.

To say this again: RC and Brinstar are paired. They counterbalance one another when viewing the top/high tier characters. No consideration for low tiers has been or will be provided.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

then scrap them both. i'm not a fan of the weird counterpicks anyway.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

To say this again: RC and Brinstar are paired. They counterbalance one another when viewing the top/high tier characters. No consideration for low tiers has been or will be provided.

This is only for singles right? I don't think this is very true for teams.

Even in singles its still pretty weak but generally unchallenged. Some characters are great on both, such as capt falcon.

 

[Strong Badam]

To say this again: RC and Brinstar are paired. They counterbalance one another when viewing the top/high tier characters. No consideration for low tiers has been or will be provided.

pretty douchey imo
dk has feelings too

 

[Cactuar]

This is only for singles right? I don't think this is very true for teams.

Even in singles its still pretty weak but generally unchallenged. Some characters are great on both, such as capt falcon.

Again, I give no consideration for low tiers. And yes, only talking about singles in that statement.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

why is no consideration given for low tiers? also, are you calling falcon a low tier?