MBR Productivity

[Deleted member]

I had the following conversation with Cactuar. I'll start here since this seems to capture the focal point of my topic:

[08:59] Charles: lmao
[08:59] Charles: we finally did it
[08:59] Charles: we put a br
[08:59] Charles: in the mbr
[08:59] Charles: so now we have
[08:59] Charles: an mbrbr
[09:53] Max: whats the point of that?
[10:15] Charles: lol
[10:15] Max: explain yourself
[10:15] Charles: for leader discussion apparently...
[10:15] Charles: it was marcs idea
[10:15] Charles: or m3ds...
[10:15] Max: eliminate it IMO
[10:16] Charles: i wasn't at some skype meeting they had
[10:16] Charles: and they had a million bright ideas
[10:16] Max: a BR with another hidden forums suggests that all members within the group aren't equal
[10:16] Charles: i agree with that
[10:16] Charles: m3d and marc are trying to push for greater activity coming from the mbr
[10:16] Charles: so they want a slight restructuring
[10:16] Max: then they should frontline projects directly?
[10:17] Max: structural differentiation will yield no higher output, assuming generalized productivity was a goal in the first place
[10:17] Charles: pretty much what i said in response to certain mbr members *****ing at the leaders for not doing everything
[10:17] Max: if the MBR does not have anything to talk about, why generate forced activity with no prior interest?
[10:18] Charles: we have definitely reached stagnation
[10:18] Charles: just as a game
[10:18] Charles: its so old
[10:18] Max: I believe that the stagnation of the MBR is inevitable and natural
[10:18] Charles: where can we really go other than occasionally updating tiers based on metagame evolution
[10:18] Charles: and maybe *****ing about the stage list once in a while
[10:18] Max: assuming that either of them change
[10:18] Charles: right
[10:18] Max: I see

So much as I was part of the MBR prior to MLG's influence (in both the old Melee circuit rules and later ownership of the site), the purpose of the MBR was to allow only the select best intellects and talent of the melee community the opportunity to discuss the game at depth with their relative peers. So much as I know, some quota of output to the general public was never a priority of ours from when I was first added (July, 2003) but instead optional in nature. I tried to maintain this posture when I held MBR leadership, and I passed leadership to those members I specifically decided would not further corrupt the essence of what the MBR is supposed to be. That said, I oppose this motion on several distinct points:

1. A BR for leadership implies that those in it hold some certain intellectual requirements are not met by those not in that forum. The MBR was based on a mutual understanding that its members are equals, and any differences aside from those are ignored because we respect each others opinions. In short, it was a bad idea in the BBR, it was a bad idea for the BR, and it's a bad idea here. It shows (or hides) a disrespect for your peers.

2. That a conversation was held to direct the future of the MBR outside of the MBR where the majority of its members had no influence is also disrespectful to your intellectual peers. It's much better off here, where we are no freely able to discuss it openly.

3. I believe the MBR as a whole should decide how to handle what is a clear stagnation. I am of the opinion that a stagnation is inevitable, and that we should not force any publication or productivity where there is no interest. I believe that all material put forth by the MBR is strictly optional, and our members are open to do so to help the community as they wish. It should not be mandatory.

I may add more to this as I develop my thoughts instead of writing free-hand.

 

[Marc]

When is the last time a Skype meeting with 90 people worked out? SWF upper staff holds Skype meetings regularly these days (ever since JV took over) and you have no idea what was discussed. Pretty much all of it will be taken to the main MBR soon, as it has to do with a complete main page overhaul and other things. As for the MBRBR, there isn't a single topic in there now, but when it comes to preparing projects and discussing things between room leaders/moderators it beats PMs or cluttering up the Staffer Shack. Finally, Cactuar wasn't even in the Skype meeting, which shows in the fact that he mentions M3D... who has nothing to do with this. You could have just sent JV, me or anyone else present a PM to clear things up or ask questions. Most of what is in here simply isn't true.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm not entirely sure leadership/moderation discussion even happens for the MBR, through PM or otherwise. Wasn't the original intent for the MBR's leaders to simply keep things focused and out of trouble, and otherwise keep things as far from any sort of bureaucracy as possible?

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

I mostly agree with what Umbreon said. Some time ago I reflected on the MBR's role and concluded it's nothing more than a discussion board. Pretty much like smashboards itself, only without newbies. We're not supposed to take decisions, reach agreements and create rules as if we were a government. Even after discussions on what line of thought/action should be taken in dealing with certain situations, the MBR's opinion is nothing more than a mere advice. Tournament organizers are ultimately in charge of taking decisions (wheter it is about banning a character from smash or keeping order in the venue during a tournament) so the MBR's opinions are kinda superfluous too. Even when we're speaking of tier list making. It's not like our tier list is the ultimate truth, it's just an opinion. Except people expect us to make one because they find a tier list created by elite players to be more reliable.

That said, I don't think we should really worry about MBR inactivity. It's normal when the game is about to get 10 years old. I also find it just as stupid if people continously ask for a new tier list. It's not like it's going to change the way Melee is played, it's just an opinion. After all tires don't exist, do they?

The creation of a back room within a back room doesn't really bug me but I still don't get the point, expecially if it was created with the purpose of solving the MBR's inactivity. There definitely are some MBR members who happen to be more active than others in organizing the MBR's work. But I do not see the benefit of detaching the debates of this "elite" MBR members from the rest of the back room. Moreover, it would probably end up making the rest of the back room even more unactive.

 

[Marc]

But you don't understand, the intent of the meeting was to just touch base for the start of 2011. There won't be any forced activity or thorough restructuring. At the end we left with four goals/things to consider, none of which are secret.

1. The application process: Right now it's simply not fair. You have to be noticed to get in and a public application round would serve in having people get in on their own strengths/merits.
2. Reconsidering our mission statement. This would be a topic here for all of us to see and chime in on.
3. The compiling of information and data for newer players. Right now it's all over Smashboards, the MBR can do a lot to make it more presentable in conjunction with a main page overhaul.
4. Public surveys. More of a data gathering project not very relevant to most MBR members, but still.

This was all JUST discussed, so it hasn't been presented yet for that very reason.

And that's basically it. The topic can stay open for a bit, but I'm not going to unnerve misinformation and paranoia thirty times in a row. Complaints like "wah wah I don't want to do anything" aren't valid, especially because you most likely won't even have to.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

But you don't understand, the intent of the meeting was to just touch base for the start of 2011. There won't be any forced activity or thorough restructuring. At the end we left with four goals/things to consider, none of which are secret.

1. The application process: Right now it's simply not fair. You have to be noticed to get in and a public application round would serve in having people get in on their own strengths/merits.
2. Reconsidering our mission statement. This would be a topic here for all of us to see and chime in on.
3. The compiling of information and data for newer players. Right now it's all over Smashboards, the MBR can do a lot to make it more presentable in conjunction with a main page overhaul.
4. Public surveys. More of a data gathering project not very relevant to most MBR members, but still.

This was all JUST discussed, so it hasn't been presented yet for that very reason.

And that's basically it. The topic can stay open for a bit, but I'm not going to unnerve misinformation and paranoia thirty times in a row. Complaints like "wah wah I don't want to do anything" aren't valid, especially because you most likely won't even have to.

I personally wasn't fearing any pression on activity from anyone, I just wanted to express my position on the MBR's role in general. I dind't intend to criticize anyone by doing so, my apologies if my post was misunderstood

Still, I don't get the point of a MBRBR. It's surely good that there's meetings between the most active MBR members and things going on but I don't see the relationship with the creation of a private BR within the MBR itself (again, it doesn't bug me at all, it's just that I don't get it lol).

 

[Marc]

No problem, Aldwyn, just wanted to get the word out there before everyone starts addressing things that are neither here nor there. Inactivity is only seen as a problem to the extent that people who do want to be productive are obstructed by it. It's much more about facilitating activity than cracking down on inactivity. If you're not interested that will probably be fine, but I genuinely don't believe the MBR is entirely incapable of helping out the community. I also don't think anyone isn't aware of the fact that the game is ten years old. Do the four things I listed strike you as unreasonable?

The MBRBR is just useful for quick communication between moderators or moderators and JV, as well as a place to archive things. Slhoka and I like to screw around with data a lot and saving it in a secure room on SWF to prepare releases is convenient. There are also some issues (when users start acting up for example) where it's the call of group leaders/mods to make and not that of the entire room.

 

[SleepyK]

wah wah i want to do things

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

The MBRBR is just useful for quick communication between moderators or moderators and JV, as well as a place to archive things. Slhoka and I like to screw around with data a lot and saving it in a secure room on SWF to prepare releases is convenient. There are also some issues (when users start acting up for example) where it's the call of group leaders/mods to make and not that of the entire room.

I'm getting a clearer idea now. But I still don't get the point of making it private. Given that the MBR is not made of random users but of people able to think before posting, I think the benefits would be higher if everyone could access the data in the archive. At least as far as using it as an archive is concerned. I hope that issues that require meetings of moderators to be solved don't happen often enough to require the room to be made private for this specific purpose.

 

[Marc]

It's more like the inbetween things, such as compiling tier list votes and the like and making it look good. That I guess doesn't really have to be private, but user issues and whatever else comes up does. If the room doesn't see much use (which is likely), that's also fine.

 

[Deleted member]

When is the last time a Skype meeting with 90 people worked out? SWF upper staff holds Skype meetings regularly these days (ever since JV took over) and you have no idea what was discussed. Pretty much all of it will be taken to the main MBR soon, as it has to do with a complete main page overhaul and other things. As for the MBRBR, there isn't a single topic in there now, but when it comes to preparing projects and discussing things between room leaders/moderators it beats PMs or cluttering up the Staffer Shack. Finally, Cactuar wasn't even in the Skype meeting, which shows in the fact that he mentions M3D... who has nothing to do with this. You could have just sent JV, me or anyone else present a PM to clear things up or ask questions. Most of what is in here simply isn't true.

If you're so worried about cluttering up PM boxes and inactivity, solve both by cluttering up project information in the MBR. Where the rest of us can see it. If you think I wanted a 90-person skype chat, you missed the point.

I am asking you questions, just where everyone else can read them and their respective answers. We can cover your 4 prior points just fine without any means of being sneaky with hidden forums. Regardless of how you defend it, it yields only a strict tactical disadvantage in terms of resolution, either between members or their projects. If you have some way to deny this, I'd like to see it.

 

[Marc]

One of your issues was a Skype session between staff members. That's a problem with authority on your behalf and a Smashboards policy that's not going to change. You pretty much make the most negative possible assumptions and are blowing this way out of proportion. Being sneaky? Tactical advantage? Is there some sort of war between mods and other MBR members in this room I'm not aware of? It's not really my call to make, but we're not going to forfeit convenience so you can sleep at night.

 

[Cactuar]

Ya, I meant JV, not M3D. Just confusing the names. I was trying to say the one that I don't play LoL with, and I guessed wrong.

As for activity, I support the eager attitude of Marc and JV to have the MBR be active in doing something. There seems to be this idea that all we really can do is publish tier lists and rules, but the reality is that we are (for the most part) people who are looked up to in the community.

To demonstrate, I ask the question: where can we go aside from that? I don't mean that to be rhetorical. There is really a whole bunch of stuff that we could accomplish if applied properly, but as I see it, we don't have that motivation as a group. I have my own ideas regarding this, but I will be reserving them for the moment. I would really like to see fresh idea contribution from members we don't usually hear from.

 

[SleepyK]

i am fine with at least publishing more rules, but i would like to hear your ideas as well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm down with more activity in here. I've been meaning to post back here more regardless and more activity would make it easier for that to work.

I'm not sure what we would do exactly as extra projects but I'd be interested in supporting them.

 

[Slhoka]

Marc gave a pretty good explanation of the purposes of this MBRBR. However, I see another useful aspect.

In the back room, I think that the leaders are indeed not higher than any other members. So aside from the non-existant moderation, what is our role ? Well, I think it is to motivate you and facilitate the debate. You have the ideas, you are the ones who debate and produce the core content of the backroom announcement. We have the same role, but we also have to help you produce this content.

Now, it means that when we are to start a project, we have to prepare it a bit on our own to make it interesting. If we just throw a random idea and don't prepare a plan for the project procedure, it will get less support (and in my opinion, this kind of situation happened a bit too often in the past).

So this is another use I see for this MBRBR : not something to hide content, but a preliminary work space.

Edit :

I'm down with more activity in here. I've been meaning to post back here more regardless and more activity would make it easier for that to work.

I'm not sure what we would do exactly as extra projects but I'd be interested in supporting them.

Marc wrote a few of the projects we planned for 2011 when we did the Skype meeting. Of course, it doesn't mean we won't do anything else, quite the opposite.
I'll also post very soon a rather quick project regarding the tier list evolution. And of course, we have the stage list vote which is a bit paused at the momenta and will resume rather soon.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm going to petition for a BR for the MBRBR. Just for me. For meditation.

 

[SleepyK]

i want a BR on cactuar's VM page.

just for the two of us

oh baby

 

[Pink Reaper]

Can we get an MBRDR where you have to pay to get in?

 

[Cactuar]

Hold up now. That's just crazy talk. Let's keep it realistic if possible.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Can we change the name of the mbr to "the melee disco room, where the 80's never go out of style"?

 

[Skler]

The 80's went out of style?

 

[Marc]

Out of style? Most people in this room are a product of the 80s.

 

[Skler]

Exactly! It's always in style here.

Always.

 

[Deleted member]

One of your issues was a Skype session between staff members. That's a problem with authority on your behalf and a Smashboards policy that's not going to change. You pretty much make the most negative possible assumptions and are blowing this way out of proportion. Being sneaky? Tactical advantage? Is there some sort of war between mods and other MBR members in this room I'm not aware of? It's not really my call to make, but we're not going to forfeit convenience so you can sleep at night.

I don't have a problem with authority. I have a problem with the implementation of unnecessary authority where none is needed, or when some party seeks to attain control in a domain where that party doesn't actually have any, and this fits the prior. You can defend the decision with some generated "policy", but that a backroom was made is was done so without any regard for the members of the user group and is by its very nature secretive, and thus sneaky.

Whatever, you're already made it quite clear that the staff is willing to strong-arm its way through dissenting opinions, so it doesn't really matter.

In the back room, I think that the leaders are indeed not higher than any other members. So aside from the non-existant moderation, what is our role ? Well, I think it is to motivate you and facilitate the debate. You have the ideas, you are the ones who debate and produce the core content of the backroom announcement. We have the same role, but we also have to help you produce this content.

The MBR leaders have the role of basic moderation (move/close topics, remove unruly members if that ever comes up). After that, any input on your part is optional, as is the status of the membership for any other user. The MBR was not implemented to produce anything mandatory. If you should choose to do so, that is your choice as a member, but NOT as a leader of the user group.

 

[KishPrime]

There is only one way to sum up this discussion for me.

Even for a video game secret back room, this is really nerdy.

I'm going to look into buying the website www.mbrbrbrbr.com, just in case. Future moneys secured!

 

[Cactuar]

There is only one way to sum up this discussion for me.



I'm going to look into buying the website www.mbrbrbrbr.com, just in case. Future moneys secured!

Is it wrong that I clicked that link and had a moment of hope followed by another moment of sadness when it failed to load?

 

[KishPrime]

Well I haven't bought it yet.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Is it wrong that I clicked that link and had a moment of hope followed by another moment of sadness when it failed to load?

*also did this*

 

[KevinM]

I'm not a product of the 80's :\

 

[Tero.]

Can we change the name of the mbr to "the melee disco room, where the 80's never go out of style"?

I fully support this.

 

[Cactuar]

I suppose my sig would be appropriate for the MBR being a Disco room.

Disco ALL day, *****es.

 

[g-regulate]

Whatever man, M3D has always been about "not being equal" with smashers so it all figures. I mean, melee is a 10 year old game, it IS old, so why FORCE things to happen? What else can REALLY be "produced" by us?

I've liked the discussion in the "teching" thread and the camping thread, the taking notes thread..... these have spurred some good discussion by smart posters about things actually RELATING to the game today. I don't see a point of 2 back rooms.

 

[SleepyK]

idk, i like it when we release things in accordance with the current metagame. the new tier list and an eventual new stage list are great in my book.

i still don't understand why people keep saying "melee is 10 years old why do we have to release stuff there's no reason etc."

by playing the game and continuing to advance the metagame, we are changing things and thus discussion will spark and we will need to release up to date tier lists and stage lists.
sure ok some of you don't want to i guess
but "why should we have to.." too often feels like a "i don't want to" when it comes to projects like the aforementioned.


as it's made out, the mbrbr doesn't necessarily even seem to be something that requires mbr input to begin with..

now i will spam letters until my sig appears.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

 

[g-regulate]

idk, i like it when we release things in accordance with the current metagame. the new tier list and an eventual new stage list are great in my book.

a back room for the back room is not required for this.

 

[Cactuar]

But... I really like back rooms. So I had them put a back room in my back room. So I can back room while I back room.

...

 

[SleepyK]

i've been in cactuar's back room

he's got a tight back room

 

[Deleted member]

idk, i like it when we release things in accordance with the current metagame. the new tier list and an eventual new stage list are great in my book.

there's nothing wrong with releasing things. i think tier lists and stage debates and all of this theory stuff lately is fun as hell. but if YOU want to do them, it's YOUR agenda to head the project.

i don't know when it was decided that the MBR leaders should be the ones that have to take initiative rather than those interested members. it really feels like an intellectual coup for people that aren't leaders of the MBR or regular posters to tell us how to do our own projects. particularly when the model being imposed copies the BBR, and i remember how well that went firsthand.

 

[KevinM]

I just feel like there should have been discussion with the members supposedly on equal footing first before just doing it between leaders.

Then again most of the leaders of these sorta things are ALL BOUT DAT EPEEN

 

[hungrybox]

I like snorkeling