Matchup Thread

[MG_3989]

So I noticed we don’t have a dedicated matchup thread and we’re getting a lot of matchup questions. I think it would be useful to consolidate this information in one thread so people can refer back to it and ask about match ups they may be having trouble with or just wanna know about

I’ll start with an easy one, Snake. Ness oppresses Snake taking away almost every single one of his projectiles with PSI Magnet (fsmash, usmash, Gernades, Nikita, and even C4 if you PSI Magnet as Snake is detonating). This leaves Snake off balance and doesn’t let him play his slow methodical game and set up traps like he loves too. He’s combo food for us and he hates our aerials and disjoints. I think the best way to play this matchup is straight aggressive and keep Snake off balance the entire game. Then once he’s in the air PKT juggle all day. Overall I think this is a very favorable matchup for Ness

I’d appreciate if you guys posted more matchups and advice in his thread and feel free to ask questions about difficult matchups

 

[Zonderion]

So I noticed we don’t have a dedicated matchup thread and we’re getting a lot of matchup questions. I think it would be useful to consolidate this information in one thread so people can refer back to it and ask about match ups they may be having trouble with or just wanna know about

I’ll start with an easy one, Snake. Ness oppresses Snake taking away almost every single one of his projectiles with PSI Magnet (fsmash, usmash, Gernades, Nikita, and even C4 if you PSI Magnet as Snake is detonating). This leaves Snake off balance and doesn’t let him play his slow methodical game and set up traps like he loves too. He’s combo food for us and he hates our aerials and disjoints. I think the best way to play this matchup is straight aggressive and keep Snake off balance the entire game. Then once he’s in the air PKT juggle all day. Overall I think this is a very favorable matchup for Ness

I’d appreciate if you guys posted more matchups and advice in his thread and feel free to ask questions about difficult matchups

Also I’ve been having trouble with the Inkling matchup lately (it’s not roller I’m having trouble with, it’s the ones that know how to play the character well without roller). They’re just so quick and a good Inkling is all over you at all times. Even when I do win the matchup it feels so exhausting. To start off any tips?

Being an inkling main, I might be able to offer some tips. I have not played many Ness, so take these tips with a grain of salt.

Use your bat to reflect the splat bomb. It pretty much nullifies it as an offensive move. They'll still toss it out in front of them to buy time to recharge their ink, or as a get off me move.

If you shield the roller, you can punish it. Every. Time.

If they are high when knocked off stage, be weary of them throwing a splat bomb as they recover. So if you try to pressure with PK Thunder, watch for splat bombs.

Inklings recovery is pretty linear. You can fall off stage and jump + dair to get spikes. You can jump off backwards and PK Fire the ledge. You can dsmash so the yo yo is hanging off edge to catch them. PK thunder to apply pressure when they are below stage.

Watch for grabs as they can get lots of damage from those.

You can Psi Magnet their neutral B and splat bomb.

 

[MG_3989]

Being an inkling main, I might be able to offer some tips. I have not played many Ness, so take these tips with a grain of salt.

Use your bat to reflect the splat bomb. It pretty much nullifies it as an offensive move. They'll still toss it out in front of them to buy time to recharge their ink, or as a get off me move.

If you shield the roller, you can punish it. Every. Time.

If they are high when knocked off stage, be weary of them throwing a splat bomb as they recover. So if you try to pressure with PK Thunder, watch for splat bombs.

Inklings recovery is pretty linear. You can fall off stage and jump + dair to get spikes. You can jump off backwards and PK Fire the ledge. You can dsmash so the yo yo is hanging off edge to catch them. PK thunder to apply pressure when they are below stage.

Watch for grabs as they can get lots of damage from those.

You can Psi Magnet their neutral B and splat bomb.

Thanks for the tips! Yeah I have no problem with roller and actually have won a bunch of games and put myself in advantage off roller shield grabs. My main problem with Inkling is when they get in advantage and start juggling

If I can get advantage early I usually win the matchup but a good inkling is difficult to play against even though it’s supposed to be a + matchup for Ness. Inkling just snowballs fast. I think I have to play more patient and make sure my spacing is on point. Thanks for all the tips!

 

[EGsmash]

Short characters like and can be really tough to SH Fair or Bair so I find it better to drop on them with Nair or Fair and then grab if they shield. That and SH Nairs and juggle with Upair and PK Thunder harrassment.

doesn't really seem to have any truly toxic matchups. can be major threats offstage when they take your PK Thunder, but generally I think their on-stage movesets aren't too hard to work around. 's bucket can be a major pain and he's got a decent neutral game when you can't use PK against him.

 

[MG_3989]

I haven’t found a matchup that is really difficult for Ness so far. Lucas I find easy even with his freeze and magnet. You out disjoint him and you have more kill power. I literally haven’t played a Rosalina. Villager might be one of the toughest match ups I’ve played as Ness so far but Isabelle is fairly easy especially because you can PK Fire her mine. Game and Watch you always need to be careful around but his movement is awkward and I just don’t use PK Fire in the matchup. I think Ness is favored in Pichu and Olimar matchups due to his range and PSI Magnet. With those characters I usually do a short hop fast fall fair or bair and it hits them. You’ve gotta be careful with both of them because they rack up damage quick but again you outrange both of them and they don’t like PKT

So far I’ve found the hardest matchups to be sword characters who space correctly, can kill early, and leave few openings. I think Ike and Cloud are the two most difficult for Ness out of the sword characters because of the way their spacing and disjoints work. However if the sword character isn’t a good player it’s an easy win. I also think Ness 100% wins sword matchups on Final Destination

Ylink can be difficult but again very doable. You just have to break his pattern and rhythm. Most of the zoners I find pretty easy including the Belmonts (those 20% forward throw gimps though lmao)

 

[Uffe]

I don't really have much info against Young Link except that if they throw the Boomerang straight, you can use PK Fire to stop it. If they fire a Fire Arrow soon after, the fire pillar from PK Fire should nullify it, but it might be best to shield just in case. If the first Fire Arrow does get stopped by the fire pillar from PK Fire, then that's good for Ness, as this can allow him to move in. This probably also applies to Link and Toon Link as well. Aside from that, don't give these characters any space to freely spam projectile. If there are no platforms to cover any of the Link's, and they want to spam arrows, and then start holding arrows to force you to react, a Jump PK Fire or short hop PK Thunder might be useful since they'll be left open for charging their bow and arrows. I have yet to be consistent against Young Link and any Link, though, so these are just some things I've done that has helped me.

 

[MG_3989]

I don't really have much info against Young Link except that if they throw the Boomerang straight, you can use PK Fire to stop it. If they fire a Fire Arrow soon after, the fire pillar from PK Fire should nullify it, but it might be best to shield just in case. If the first Fire Arrow does get stopped by the fire pillar from PK Fire, then that's good for Ness, as this can allow him to move in. This probably also applies to Link and Toon Link as well. Aside from that, don't give these characters any space to freely spam projectile. If there are no platforms to cover any of the Link's, and they want to spam arrows, and then start holding arrows to force you to react, a Jump PK Fire or short hop PK Thunder might be useful since they'll be left open for charging their bow and arrows. I have yet to be consistent against Young Link and any Link, though, so these are just some things I've done that has helped me.

Those are definitely some decent tips. I find in the Young Link matchup short hop fast fall fair is your best friend. The aerial PK Fires definitely work too. Then after a while when you condition them to think you’re gonna fair or pk fire when you short hop you can tomahawk them and grab them and get a combo started. I usually win the matchup but it feels like a lot of work. You have to space your disjoints perfectly so you don’t get hit by their sword and not take too much projectile damage in the process. The plus side is PKT’s tail gimps their recovery early. Also I find the matchup much easier with platforms, maybe even advantage. You can camp them out with PK Fire all day and force them to approach

 

[Chrits]

Some pretext: I am not good at this game, but I do enjoy playing it in a competitive setting. I'd say Ness is probably the character I think would be the most fun to play at a high level, so I've been maining him. I also don't have regular access to a switch quite yet, but I do take the game seriously and would like to be taken seriously.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend is a Yoshi main and probably slightly better than me, but I seriously have a hard time playing against him. When he's below me, his up tilts and aerial combos just feel unbeatable. When he's above me, his dair beats my up smash and down b beats my uair if I try chasing him.

The only time I feel in control is when I bait out the down b and grab him or miraculously catch him in a pk fire and/or string of fairs. The only way I recover is by avoiding his combos by falling toward the side of the stage where he doesn't feel confident edge guarding and recovering back to the stage. The only times I win is when he tries to edge guard and misses and uses all of his jumps and can't recover, it never feels like it is in my hands.

I know I just need to get better, but any specific tips against Yoshi in particular would be helpful.

Cheers

 

[MG_3989]

Some pretext: I am not good at this game, but I do enjoy playing it in a competitive setting. I'd say Ness is probably the character I think would be the most fun to play at a high level, so I've been maining him. I also don't have regular access to a switch quite yet, but I do take the game seriously and would like to be taken seriously.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend is a Yoshi main and probably slightly better than me, but I seriously have a hard time playing against him. When he's below me, his up tilts and aerial combos just feel unbeatable. When he's above me, his dair beats my up smash and down b beats my uair if I try chasing him.

The only time I feel in control is when I bait out the down b and grab him or miraculously catch him in a pk fire and/or string of fairs. The only way I recover is by avoiding his combos by falling toward the side of the stage where he doesn't feel confident edge guarding and recovering back to the stage. The only times I win is when he tries to edge guard and misses and uses all of his jumps and can't recover, it never feels like it is in my hands.

I know I just need to get better, but any specific tips against Yoshi in particular would be helpful.

Cheers

Yoshi is a tough one because he does what you do best but better, play a great air game. First of all you never wanna be above Yoshi or you’re probably dead. You need to dash dance a lot and make your movement as ambiguous as possible against Yoshi. Try and bait out his down b’s and then hit him with a PK Fire when he lands and a grab combo after

PK Thunder juggles him and I’m almost sure it hits him out of his down b. If he’s gonna be jumping and flying around everywhere like Yoshi’s like to do keep constant PK Thunder pressure on him. Never go up and try to uair him, you’ll lose. If he adjust to your PK Thunder and try’s to down b or dair you redirect it into yourself and take that stock with a PK Thunder 2. You can use the disjoints on your bair and fair if you space them right and you can use your psi magnet to help you with spacing. A drag down fair with the right spacing can definitely work against Yoshi

When he’s just jumping around and not using his down b use your utilt and yo-yo as anti air spacing tools. Your main game plan against Yoshi is to space well and bait out his options with long cool downs like down b, fair, and fsmash and then punish him hard for it

It’s a very winnable matchup you just can’t play your usual air game against Yoshi and you have to adapt

 

[-Saltyclams-]

Being an inkling main, I might be able to offer some tips. I have not played many Ness, so take these tips with a grain of salt.

Use your bat to reflect the splat bomb. It pretty much nullifies it as an offensive move. They'll still toss it out in front of them to buy time to recharge their ink, or as a get off me move.

If you shield the roller, you can punish it. Every. Time.

If they are high when knocked off stage, be weary of them throwing a splat bomb as they recover. So if you try to pressure with PK Thunder, watch for splat bombs.

Inklings recovery is pretty linear. You can fall off stage and jump + dair to get spikes. You can jump off backwards and PK Fire the ledge. You can dsmash so the yo yo is hanging off edge to catch them. PK thunder to apply pressure when they are below stage.

Watch for grabs as they can get lots of damage from those.

You can Psi Magnet their neutral B and splat bomb.

for roller something i like to do to deal with it is when i see them running in with it space a back air and hit em as ness its really effective as your are faster than inkling while they use thier roller

Short characters like and can be really tough to SH Fair or Bair so I find it better to drop on them with Nair or Fair and then grab if they shield. That and SH Nairs and juggle with Upair and PK Thunder harrassment.

doesn't really seem to have any truly toxic matchups. can be major threats offstage when they take your PK Thunder, but generally I think their on-stage movesets aren't too hard to work around. 's bucket can be a major pain and he's got a decent neutral game when you can't use PK against him.

dealing with characters that can take your thunder is a tad bit easier due to the fact that ness directional air dodge is so good so as long as you don't always use thunder off stage and mix up recoveries with air dodge and pk thunder you will be fine

 

[Skeletim123]

For The Swordies fighting on stage is a pain with their disjoints use your projectiles to space them out be SUPER careful on stage and torture them with PKT off stages because most swordies can't do anything against it

 

[MG_3989]

For The Swordies fighting on stage is a pain with their disjoints use your projectiles to space them out be SUPER careful on stage and torture them with PKT off stages because most swordies can't do anything against it

That’s basically the way I do it. I use a lot of spaces PK Fires too especially when they’re hopping around a lot to catch landings and fast fall fair is a life saver in neutral. Spacing wise you really don’t have much room for error against them.Once you get them offstage it’s your game though

 

[tehflash]

I'm having a hard time with the Zelda matchup. It seems like her reflector is frustratingly larger than all of Ness' aerials and even bat and yo-yo so that I can't get in close, but it also sends back any projectiles I have. I've tried reading when the last hit happens on it and punish by going in after but they'll just start up another reflector and I'm knocked away. Any good ideas on how to get in on a Zelda main?

 

[MG_3989]

I'm having a hard time with the Zelda matchup. It seems like her reflector is frustratingly larger than all of Ness' aerials and even bat and yo-yo so that I can't get in close, but it also sends back any projectiles I have. I've tried reading when the last hit happens on it and punish by going in after but they'll just start up another reflector and I'm knocked away. Any good ideas on how to get in on a Zelda main?

Zelda is a rough one definitely. Use your bat to knock back her Knight thing and try and eat her fire balls. She’s hard because PK Fire and even PK Thunder have to be used very sparingly and she’s not easy to get in on. You have to play really patiently. You can try and out camp her with PK Thunder but you better have your PSI Magnet or bat on point to eat every fireball. This is one I really haven’t definitively figured out yet. A bad Zelda is easy but a good Zelda is a different monster. You have faster frame data so once you get advantage you shouldn’t have any trouble but winning neutral is really hard in the matchup. I wish I had more. I haven’t played a ton of good Zeldas. I think there are videos of both Bestness and Awestin and maybe even FOW fighting Zelda’s on YouTube so you might wanna check those out to see how they play it

 

[Specs64z]

FOW goes against Ven almost every week, and Ven is considered one of the best Zelda mains. Studying how he treats the matchup will help a ton.

 

[MG_3989]

FOW goes against Ven almost every week, and Ven is considered one of the best Zelda mains. Studying how he treats the matchup will help a ton.

Yeah I’ve watched a couple of those sets and they’ve definitely helped me in the Zelda matchup. FOW makes every matchup look easy though

 

[EGsmash]

If you go up against a Zelda who uses neutral B when caught in your PK fire pillar, remember there's some endlag to her move after the reflect is done. What I like to do against reflect spammer Zeldas is to catch them in PK fire, wait until her reflect dies down, and then rinse and repeat. You can keep it up indefinitely until she stops spamming reflect. I bet you might even have time to run up, Magnet your PK fire back, and still have time for a quick SH Nair.

 

[Skeletim123]

with zelda i've mostly resorted to platform camping keep a PKT hitbox in front of her and force her to approach basically play "i'm not touching you" with your pk thunder to force her to approach although i'm sure a good zelda main can play around this somehow

 

[Skeletim123]

Yeah I’ve watched a couple of those sets and they’ve definitely helped me in the Zelda matchup. FOW makes every matchup look easy though

Does anyone have a like to some of this? i'd love to check it out

 

[MG_3989]

J

Does anyone have a like to some of this? i'd love to check it out

Just search FOW vs Ven on YouTube. There’s a ton of them with a couple of them being grand finals sets

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

So I just did a match with a megaman. I thought, easy game. Literally the only move he did was "walk next to me while using the leaf shield"

How do I counter that? I felt like the move would have staled, but he just kept locking me in stunlock so many times i lost all my stock. Shielding only got me dangerously close to a break, and reflecting only got me a grab. PK Fire sometimes worked, but he'd just spawn another leaf shield inside the fire, killing my grab potential. I got killed by one of Ness' best matchups from nothing but the leaf shield and off stae f-smash.

 

[Specs64z]

The only answer I've found is to try and out-range it with an aerial, which isn't a great strategy but it's all I've been able to come up with. It's way too fast to react with a projectile or a reflect and it is safe on everything.

 

[MG_3989]

Leaf shield is pretty much broken. I guess you can PK Fire him and try to cross him up like a full hop bair over him and the shield because if he’s in PK Fire he can spawn another shield but I don’t think he’ll be able to turn around. There’s nothing else about this matchup that’s difficult either which makes it really frustrating that one move can polarize a character so much

 

[Specs64z]

Leaf shield is the only move I genuinely hate in this game so far, truth be told.

 

[MG_3989]

It’s really bad, I can’t think of another move that genuinely pisses me off more. The nerf didn’t help either. They needed to nerf Leaf Shield not pellet cancels. Luckily it’s not a bad matchup for us otherwise. For a ton of characters it’s a bad matchup on top of Leaf Shield. And people say PK Fire is bad smh lol

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Well this helps, knowing I'm not the only one. Haha! One move. One single move. I think there should be a longer cool down, or heck, make it kind of like Inkling's ink where you have to charge it beforehand.

 

[Specs64z]

Leaf shield reminds me of a nerfed Brawl's mach tornado, now that I think about it. A huge multihit thats safe on block, catches dodges, outprioritizes many other moves, and is super spammable. Except now it can be used as a projectile and doesn't put you in freefall.

ew...

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Yo i'm straight up not having a good time fighting the Links (holy geez mostly Young)

Reflecting only works at most like once or twice in a row, because as soon as you've hit the arrow back, he's already got another coming; So youre stuck in your bat lag and get demolished with more.

Its just,
Arrow Arrow Bomb Boomerang Arrow Arrow Arrow Arrow Up-Smash F-air Arrow Bomb Arrow Arrow Arrow Arrow Boomerang
Like I know you can argue that it can be reacted to and countered, but really its not easy, if you jump, you get hit with disjo- I mean his sword. Go in for an attack? Nah thats just rapid fire arrow time. Manage to knock em into the air? Guess what buck-o, you got f-aired or somehow hit with another projectile. Reflect even once? Ness' reflect lag is perfect for a 'young coming of age arrow' to eat up womp womp. Find a YL that doesn't spam projectiles? (rare, I know) Don't worry, his sword will hit you like a train. Knock em off the ledge and want to spike or hit with a PK Thunder? Whoops theres an arrow coming straight for your face or he's doing a Hero Slash(?) right into your wittle sneaker. Oh boy and if platforms are on, you can kiss your momma goodbye because you can't get homesick in the afterlife where you'll be in afterwards.

[Curb Your Enthusiasm Credits Play]

I've been able to deal with YL before, but as soon as your opponent has even a little bit more skill above "9 year old sister wanting a turn", you're not gonna have any fun at all. (nearly) Every single fight I've had with YL has been exactly the same. Projectile projectile projectile [THE WINNER IS... YOUNG LINK!!!!!].

IDK if like a patch came out buffing Link that I didn't hear about or what, but i've been having such a hard time especially lately

Other fighters have a spam issue, like Wolf and Samus; But their spam is much more managable. (still unfun but it can be worked around.) Every matchup I get in with any of the Links, I dread; Because I know I'll have a terrible time. It's either A.) "Projectile City Population: 2", or B.) "So I heard you like swords?".

EDIT: like waaay too many typos wow

 

[Specs64z]

Link gets bodied if you get in. His defense is ill equipped to handle Ness’s kit of quick, powerful aerials. He also has basically no counterplay to PKT juggling beyond nair, but that gets predictable real quick. Getting in is a chore, to be sure, but quick thinking and creative magnet movement will go a long way.

Young Link is in a weird spot. He technically has a sword, but it’s so small it almost feels more accurate to call it a dagger. His projectiles are incredibly quick, so getting in can be awful, but just like Link he struggles to deal with Ness’s advantage state. He also has a much harder time recovering compared to Link because his spin is so much smaller and his bomb recovery is so linear.

Toon link I have no experience fighting, but I imagine him to be the easiest of te three. Toon link is heavily reliant on bombs for kill confirms, and bomb gets hard countered by magnet. Even though his movement speed is great, his projectiles are considerably slower than the other Links so getting in is probably easier.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Toon link is easiest, yeah. YL hits like a city bus, seemingly killing before you even realise you're dead. (That bit of arrow stunlock too oh my lord) Link: Original Flavor™ is right in the middle of the two. Can spam and can sword, but not amazing.

Sword hurts bad and quick, arrows hurt bad and very quick.
Sword kills early, arrows make it possible

[Insert hackneyed joke about nerfing Greninja]

Behold, the Link Scale:
___________________________________________________
{......YL...............................L................TL...............................}
| Projectile-------------l|l-------------------Sword |

 

[MG_3989]

YL actually has a lot of trouble killing which is why I think we have a slight advantage in the MU. His zoning is really annoying but once we get in we definitely win against YL and we can edgeguard him pretty easily (he hates yo-yo). Patience and taking advantage of your openings is key vs all the Links and zoners in general

I think all three of them are about even honestly

 

[Deleted member]

Toughest ones for me: mario, fox, dr. mario, pichu, marth , lucina, chrom, mrgaw, ike, pokemon trainer (ivysaur and charizard specifically), olimar, wolf, villager, greninja, shulk, and Isabelle.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Toughest ones for me: mario, fox, dr. mario, pichu, marth , lucina, chrom, mrgaw, ike, pokemon trainer (ivysaur and charizard specifically), olimar, wolf, villager, greninja, shulk, and Isabelle.

Mario, Fox, Wolf, and Greninja all rely on constant use smash attacks, as they have very fast ones, so watch out for those.

swordies have huge hitboxes that hit hard. Your best bet is to space yourself and play the punish game

G&W's aerials are very good. Watch out for bombs, as you can reflect them with your bat, and stay away from your PSI attacks

Olimar's attacks can be reflected and he's very lightweight

Isabelle's whole schtick is spamming fishing poles and lloyd mines. Pk Fire the mines and shield the rod.

pokemon trainer is a hassle, but you can imagine Ivysaur as a sword character, and Charizard as a heavy witha fast PK Rocket.

Ness takes a bit of practice, but all of these can be overcome. Even a dumpster fire like myself figured out how and you can too!

 

[Ethan Weegee]

Characters I have trouble with, that I can think of immediately:

Squirtle, if they can catch me off-guard they seem to combo easily.
Isabelle, with the mine-things. That's pretty much my only issue but they can really be devastating if I forget about them.
Villager, with the side-special spam. Even the CPU will do this, and I haven't figured out how to deal with this.

 

[Specs64z]

Characters I have trouble with, that I can think of immediately:

Squirtle, if they can catch me off-guard they seem to combo easily.
Isabelle, with the mine-things. That's pretty much my only issue but they can really be devastating if I forget about them.
Villager, with the side-special spam. Even the CPU will do this, and I haven't figured out how to deal with this.

Squirtle is built to do easy combos and has insane frame data, so if he gets in you've already lost the interaction. The ticket to victory is to out-range him and keep him in the air with Ness's oppressive advantage state.
Isabelle's mines can be PK fired, so you essentially use her stage control tool and make it your stage control tool by activating a flame pillar. This goes without saying, but don't get predictable or she'll punish you for spamming PK fire. Mine also loses to shield and just straight up running past it.
Villagers rocket is definitely a good tool, but I would guess that it loses to nair (can't test it myself rn, confirmation would be appreciated). Basically every projectile loses to nair.

 

[CHOVI]

Characters I have trouble with, that I can think of immediately:

Squirtle, if they can catch me off-guard they seem to combo easily.
Isabelle, with the mine-things. That's pretty much my only issue but they can really be devastating if I forget about them.
Villager, with the side-special spam. Even the CPU will do this, and I haven't figured out how to deal with this.

You can pk fire mines and rockets, so they shouldn’t be too bad

 

[Ethan Weegee]

You can pk fire mines and rockets, so they shouldn’t be too bad

If I'm remembering correctly, PK Fire against rockets doesn't work? I don't think they break on contact with it.

 

[CHOVI]

If I'm remembering correctly, PK Fire against rockets doesn't work? I don't think they break on contact with it.

They do break. Not immediately after contact but they can’t reach you

 

[P.I.E.]

Would you all be willing to do character discussions in sessions? maybe each character lasting a day or two? In some of the old ness boards this worked out great and the OP would post up a summary of each character discussions. Sometimes we'd call on members of other character boards and quote discussions in other threads.

 

[Oniiiii]

Is this a good place for me to ask for tips for the Samus and Kirby matchups?