Matchup Re-discussion (2010): Diddy Kong

[Darkmusician]

Zelda vs. Diddy Kong
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio : N/A (Could not find the old match up ratio)

Our Original Matchup Thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239597
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: N/A (They have not discussed this match up)

Zelda Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082
Diddy Kong Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239185

Summary:

N/A discussion in progress.

I'll start off by quoting sniperworm from the old discussion because he and I generally think along the same lines anyway.

"The key to this matchup is knowing how to handle items and using that knowledge to separate Diddy from his bananas. Diddy is managable if you can keep him from wrecking you with nanners.

Don't pick up Diddy's banana's with attacks unless you're sure they'll hit him (or that he can't punish you). Air dodge, Z-catch, or Nair them in the air, just pick them up if they're on the ground, and airdodge or Nair to grab them if you're going to land on one.

In general, unless you're comfortable with using bananas, don't throw them back at Diddy if you manage to grab one. Just toss them off the edge or into the air so he can't get them back as easily. If you're not good at catching nanners, shield them first, jump OoS, and then catch them with whatever you feel is appropriate (remember that you can throw them right away if you catch it with an air dodge). You can still do aerials with a banana (just Z drop it first and immediately use your aerial to catch the banana again) and Fsmash (hold A when you pick up the banana and use the C-stick to smash) with one too so don't feel like you need to immediately throw it.

Zelda's glide toss goes really far very quickly, but other than being a surprise move it really isn't all that useful.

Diddy's bananas will cut right through Zelda's "wall" of transcendant priority so be wary of this. That being said, Diddy will have difficulty breaking through her defenses if he somehow finds himself without bananas.

I don't really mention Diddy camping against Zelda because he generally will be coming to you once he gets out his second banana. Since Diddy is strongest when he has two bananas under his control (but he can't keep two out indefinitely since one will eventually disappear), he'll definitely make a move once he has two of them out. Zelda's not good at controlling Diddy, so this scenario will happen many times during a game and you'll just have to find ways to deal with it."
-sniperworm

Start talking.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This matchup is hugely based on how well you can deal with bananas. Learn how to grab them or avoid them, and when to do which.

Zelda's glide toss CAN be quite usefull, so keep that in your back pocket when you find yourself with a nanner.

 

[Fuujin]

I find that Diddys that don't know the match up are fun to play, they arent used to the timing of her reflector so they throw bananas while the reflective properties are still activated.
The ones that do know the match just hold a banana and stand at mid range and wait for you to Nayru's so they can punish.
Zelda really has no options against a Diddy holding a banana at mid range.
Oh and some of them start spamming his monkey flip which can be very annoying to deal with, it goes through U smash and if he positions it right and uses the kick, jab and side smash can trade hits with it but you deal like 2 damage and take 10 :/.
I think Zelda's N air might goes through it , not sure.

What I like to do if I get control of both bananas is sort of sandwich Zelda between 2 bananas, one right in front of her and one right behind her.
Diddy wont be able to reach the bananas without eating a f smash and Zelda is relatively safe between them.
In most cases they rush to grab the banana in front of her and you can attempt to keep him out, the trouble starts when he begins spamming his monkey flip.

 

[MrEh]

the trouble starts when he begins spamming his monkey flip.

What?

Seriously?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

What?

Seriously?

I agree with Eh here.



Monkey flip is good to USE because it can go through a lot of Zelda's stuff so it works when you mix it in, but to SPAM it? I have no idea how you couldn't deal with that.

 

[Fuujin]

You guys have never had that spammed on you?
I know its not a great move but it's Zelda were talking here.
srsly it goes through a majority of her attacks if used right.

 

[MrEh]

You guys have never had that spammed on you?

We've never had it spammed on us because such a tactic doesn't even exist.

 

[KayLo!]

I've been ***** by a ****ton of Diddy Kongs (my worst matchup personally ), and I can honestly say I've never seen one spam monkey flip, lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You guys have never had that spammed on you?
I know its not a great move but it's Zelda were talking here.
srsly it goes through a majority of her attacks if used right.

if used right, it's not being spammed.



I mean, I know we often joke about how bad Zelda is. But the reality is, she's just BAD. She's not DEAD. Seriously, if Zelda has a pulse and 1/4 of a brain she can get past spammed monkeyflips.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

lolspammedmonkeyflipsslashfacehumps

I've had that attack land like, once. Ever.

Okaaaaay. Lets just say that in my personal opinion, this match up is pretty bad.

If you don't control the banana's, you'll lose.

Banana > Grab is toooooooo gooooood. I have absolutely no idea how to get past it though. Could rolling away be a decent option here?

The match up is at least 60-30 Diddy. Our base ground options are arguably better as long as he doesn't have a banana. He won't randomly down b when you're next to him, so I suppose this is one match up where we're forever chasing the **** monkey.

Also, Diddy makes awful noises.

 

[GodAtHand]

^ I don't want to point it out since I do it all the time (stupid math)!

But I agree 60-40 is about right for this matchup. It's winnable just not easy. Not as tough as Falco because you have the power to limit him if you play it right.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

^ I don't want to point it out since I do it all the time (stupid math)!

But I agree 60-40 is about right for this matchup. It's winnable just not easy. Not as tough as Falco because you have the power to limit him if you play it right.

Oh dear I failed.

This is why I barely passed Australian grade maths.

Also lol censor. That's damn. Not something else you might be thinking. :embarrass

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah, if prompted for a number, I'd say 60:40.

bananas are the only reason he can beat us on the ground, if you can deal with those, we have a better ground game.

And if he's forced to recover from rocket barrels, well . . . that should be a kill.

 

[Jim Morrison]

the trouble starts when he begins spamming his monkey flip.

what did i just walk in on

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

thread successfully derailed by monkey flips

 

[-Mars-]

So how do you get past monkey flips??

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So how do you get past monkey flips??

Dair.

Or Nayru's.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Surprisingly you can live hella long in this MU, as long as your using the momentum cancel. Against Gnes at Apex, I had two stocks in the 180s.

Diddy's Fair is evil imo.

 

[KayLo!]

It's not that surprising..... Diddy doesn't kill early.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

we CAN, however, kill diddy early. That helps.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yes we can.

But, the difference is that Diddy has set ups into his kill moves.

We don't. Except maybe dtilt. Which Diddy won't be in that range anyway.

 

[GodAtHand]

Grab a banana and you have setups just fine, and it's not like you won't get one.

I don't think I have posted my opinions on this matchup yet, so I thought I would.

I think this is a 40-60 matchup in Diddy's favor.

He's aggravating and all that, but what makes this not so bad is that we can and will kill earlier than he can kill us on average. Zelda is pretty decent with bananas and her air speed stops him from zoning her as well. But we still get combo'd and he still has more options than us overall.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Grab a banana and you have setups just fine, and it's not like you won't get one.

But...

That's like managing to grab Wario.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

But...

That's like managing to grab Wario.

not even close.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

not even close.

You have to admit that Diddy players actually will know what they're doing with Banana's. I highly doubt they'll get in the situation where you're controlling both Banana's.

Diddy Kong will not sit there and watch you assault him with Banana's. Especially when they're his.

But I disgress.

He'll probably be too busy spamming Monkey Flips to use Banana's anyway.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You have to admit that Diddy players actually will know what they're doing with Banana's. I highly doubt they'll get in the situation where you're controlling both Banana's.

Diddy Kong will not sit there and watch you assault him with Banana's. Especially when they're his.

But I disgress.

He'll probably be too busy spamming Monkey Flips to use Banana's anyway.

you don't NEED to control both bananas. One can be all you need to create an opening for a KO. That's all anyone said.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

you don't NEED to control both bananas. One can be all you need to create an opening for a KO. That's all anyone said.

Eh. Okay then. Fair enough.

 

[nekokatsu]

my worst MU too, but after all, we all agree that a diddy without banana gets owned, so i dont play much brawl, and not so many diddys around here, so i forgot the fact that we can SHIELD and OoS the banana.

the other day, in pools a ***** one diddy (a good one), i think it was luck, cuz i always do jump F-air, pass above them B-air, and they walyas eat that xDD, and at the same time he toss me a banana, so 6 or 7 times happenned this, i trew a f-air grab the banana (W F-air) and he eat the kick xDD (double win), and when he waited the kick, he got despered and when i passed over him, i dont know why, but they tend to Shield release and eat the B air xDDD.

but this only works, on a Aggressive Diddy. against a calm one.........................

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Grab a banana and you have setups just fine, and it's not like you won't get one.

I don't think I have posted my opinions on this matchup yet, so I thought I would.

I think this is a 40-60 matchup in Diddy's favor.

He's aggravating and all that, but what makes this not so bad is that we can and will kill earlier than he can kill us on average. Zelda is pretty decent with bananas and her air speed stops him from zoning her as well. But we still get combo'd and he still has more options than us overall.

I'll disagree with this. I don't think he has more options than us.

 

[MrEh]

I don't think he has more options than us.

Hm yes, the high tier character has equal options to the bottom tier.

That makes sense.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Hm yes, the high tier character has equal options to the bottom tier.

That makes sense.

Just because he's higher on the tier list doesn't mean he has more options than us. Just like Zelda has more options than MK on the IC's shield. That doesn't mean anything. You're old your trolling is old and I honestly don't see why you're even allowed to post here. There's nothing you bring to these boards and there's nothing you say that is even worth remembering. You're an eyesore with a lame avatar a loser mentality and you're lame as hell. Honestly don't understand why anyone puts up with you.

 

[KayLo!]

Just because he's higher on the tier list doesn't mean he has more options than us. Just like Zelda has more options than MK on the IC's shield.

Eh. In most (read: pretty much all) cases, it's gonna be true. Zelda lacks options in general..... well, let me rephrase that: she lacks good options. After you catch someone by surprise a few times, the number of safe things she can do in any given situation is very very small.

Diddy has a more options than Zelda, and his options are safer and better in most cases. Not commenting on the matchup at all since I suck at it, but the whole options thing is a no-brainer.

Also, Zelda doesn't have more options than MK against ICs shield. ;; Our only truly safe move on their shield is fsmash, lol. Or running away. Anything else can be grabbed.

You're old your trolling is old and I honestly don't see why you're even allowed to post here. There's nothing you bring to these boards and there's nothing you say that is even worth remembering.

I can agree with this tho.

I don't even think MrEh knows why he's still allowed to post here when he clearly does nothing but troll.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Eh. In most (read: pretty much all) cases, it's gonna be true. Zelda lacks options in general..... well, let me rephrase that: she lacks good options. After you catch someone by surprise a few times, the number of safe things she can do in any given situation is very very small.

Diddy has a more options than Zelda, and his options are safer and better in most cases. Not commenting on the matchup at all since I suck at it, but the whole options thing is a no-brainer.

Also, Zelda doesn't have more options than MK against ICs shield. ;; Our only truly safe move on their shield is fsmash, lol. Or running away. Anything else can be grabbed.



I can agree with this tho.

I don't even think MrEh knows why he's still allowed to post here when he clearly does nothing but troll.

Isn't jab and dtilt safe on their shield also ?

Careful kaylo you may get infracted for flaming/trolling.

 

[-Mars-]

MrEh brings humor and unbiased opinions to this board. More than most of the posters here who all they ever contribute is what they had for dinner in the social thread.

 

[zeldspazz]

MrEh brings humor and unbiased opinions to this board. More than most of the posters here who all they ever contribute is what they had for dinner in the social thread.

Many users here dont have the experience or the logic to add to these conversations without being told their comment is irrelevant (which I agree with, Im just saying there arent many people around who truly can do more than what youre saying compared to other boards.)

 

[KayLo!]

Isn't jab and dtilt safe on their shield also ?

Not really.

Dtilt barely maybe (and I'm not even sure if it really is), but a) it can easily be pshielded + grabbed, and b) you have to have near-perfect spacing.

EDIT: ......diddydiddydiddy.

 

[nekokatsu]

wait a minute, so if diddy has banana we dont have options ok, but if we have bananas?, i played against DD only in tourneys and always in Semis... so i have only serious Matchs against him, and every time i played against him, i got a minimum of 2 or 3 bananas per round. so... and i suck getting them, cuz i dont have Friendlies against DD ever.

Also, has anyone WIN this MU ever???... With ZELDA its all about read them...

 

[GodAtHand]

Yes, I do win this matchup quite often actually. But I still understand that it is no simple matchup and I really have to read and outplay the dd. I almost didn't understand what you were asking though, so sorry if this is off-topic.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

wait a minute, so if diddy has banana we dont have options ok, but if we have bananas?, i played against DD only in tourneys and always in Semis... so i have only serious Matchs against him, and every time i played against him, i got a minimum of 2 or 3 bananas per round. so... and i suck getting them, cuz i dont have Friendlies against DD ever.

Also, has anyone WIN this MU ever???... With ZELDA its all about read them...

reflect is always an option and works pretty good on diddy.

 

[nekokatsu]

Yes, I do win this matchup quite often actually. But I still understand that it is no simple matchup and I really have to read and outplay the dd. I almost didn't understand what you were asking though, so sorry if this is off-topic.

every MU its hard, even for Top tiers... sorry for my bad english xD, i was talking about the options we have when we catch the bananas.
i think this MU its about how we can handle the pressure, the other day in a torney the match started like this, in the moment its start DD jumps out and take out a banana, he grabs it, i cant get there in time, so i stay still, and he does the same... and i press B after 5 seconds of doing nothing...
then... he waits until nayrus its over and.......... XD
but! if i come to make the right descicion...

u know what i mean.

reflect is always an option and works pretty good on diddy.

i do use that alot, but if u make a mistake.... its gonna hurt... im going to use Shield Oos jump the next time, to see what effect does against them...


i also think that Zelda strenght its in the distance ur opponent...