Matchup impressions as of 8/6/15

[SeanS]

It's kind of pathetic that this board is so dead that my old, out of date topic is at the top here. I suppose this is because all relevant discussion has really moved to the G&W Skype group, where we now know that my previous topic is outdated but not all of you go there (why), so here's how more experience on my end and fervently increased discussion amongst G&W players has changed things up.


Also, please always remember that in making these lists, I consider, to the best of my knowledge, theoretically perfect play where players always fight optimally, and that I discuss what this entails with active G&W players. I consider whether characters have guaranteed responses to certain moves, the efficiency of kill methods vs. various characters, guaranteed setups into various hits, how badly characters can get edgeguarded by G&W (sorry Luigi), etc. You are free to inquire about any of these and I strongly recommend you do so if you are confused.



FUNDAMENTALLY UNWINNABLE (The Dastardly Four)
Diddy
Sheik
Fox
Sonic

SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE
Rosalina
Duck Hunt
Yoshi
Bowser
(Dark) Pit
ROB
Falcon (when will Falcon players step up to this MU? lol)
Villager
G&W (yes)

NEUTRAL
Junior (MATCHUP TBD)
Link
Toon Link
ZSS
Kirby
Pikachu
Greninja (MATCHUP TBD)
Olimar
Pac Man
Marcina
Roy

SLIGHT ADVANTAGE
Lucas
Samus
Mega Man
Palutena
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Wario
DK
Zelda
Ganon
Robin
DeDeDe
MK
Little Mac
Falco
Charizard
Lucario
Ness
WFT
Dr. Mario
Shulk
Mewtwo
Mii Fighter
Mii Gunner (MATCHUP TBD)
Mii Swordsman (MATCHUP TBD)
Ryu

FUNDAMENTALLY UNLOSEABLE
Ike
Jigglypuff




CHANGES SINCE LAST MU LIST, OTHER NOTES

Rosalina moves from FUNDAMENTALLY UNWINNABLE into SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE
Why? Because it is now known that Luma can be safely damaged with bair and dtilt windbox (made safe via pushback) if a jab ender is anticipated, allowing G&W to temporarily eliminate or discourage his main obstacle in this matchup. He still has to deal with her move priority and stalling, but that's a much simpler struggle.

Sonic moves from SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE into FUNDAMENTALLY UNWINNABLE
Why? After extensive testing versus this character, we have seen that he is capable of punishing G&W's air game purely off of reaction (a la Fox), and also can get guaranteed setups from spindash with proper stalling (best non-telegraphed response G&W has is dash attack, which clanks and lets Sonic get first hit afterwards with utilt).

Duck Hunt moves from TBD into SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE
Why? We had long assumed that edgeguarding Duck Hunt is really easy when it actually isn't because of how he can go low and deploy his can just above the ledge. Given that the neutral game is very tedious and both characters tend to kill at high percents, we have no choice but to consider this a bad matchup in light of these facts.

Yoshi moves form NEUTRAL into SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE
Why? You can predictively roll Yoshi's fair as it activates and it will still hit you. There is no solid, non-preemptive option that G&W seems to have against this move.

Palutena moves from NEUTRAL into SLIGHT ADVANTAGE
Why? Though the footsies game is tedious, a proper air game can get past her jab, and the fact that Autoreticle can instantly fill bucket while making it reasonably strong is a great discouragement from any Palutena player trying to zone.

Pikachu moves from TBD into NEUTRAL
We had assumed this was correct for a while, and Regi's recent play at EVO confirms it. He certainly could have done better and won the match.

Marcina moves from SLIGHT ADVANTAGE into NEUTRAL
Why? It was previously the case that dash attack was a guaranteed reactive response to Marth fairing on shield. With the new patch (1.10 as of this post) buffing its landing lag, this is no longer the case, and the matchup is more drawn out in play length.

Mega Man moves from NEUTRAL to SLIGHT ADVANTAGE
Why? We initially didn't anticipate how using bucket liberally can discourage Mega Man from jab spamming and even forward smashing by allowing us to counter-zone him.

Samus moves from FUNDAMENTALLY UNLOSEABLE into SLIGHT ADVANTAGE
Why? While the knowledge that putting offense pressure on her is a constant necessity holds true, OOS Up B can actually force us to pick and choose openings. This move can be baited, and it's still a good matchup, just not a great one.

Lucas is added into SLIGHT ADVANTAGE.
Really, just a worse Ness, lol. Everything he does other than nair is weaker and more punishable. Weaker kill throws help as well.

Roy is added into NEUTRAL.
His fastfalling, his fast kill moves that require less precision than Marth, the presence of counter, and decent spacing tools let this be a 50-50. Thank god he's edgeguardable.

Ryu is added into SLIGHT ADVANTAGE.
All of his specials are readily punishable, forcing him to play footsies with G&W's disjoints. Strong ftilt and h.Shoryuken are threats, but they can't define a matchup for him, especially without the pressure of a good throw game to back them up. Edgeguardable with proper practice and reads.

- Mario may be moving into Neutral soon. I need more testing on this, but his bair may be unexpectedly good on G&W's low-recovering Up B.

- I've seen the argument from fellow G&Ws that the new stagelist and throw game buffs in Kirby's favor may necessitate him being a bad matchup, and that something similar applies to moving Charizard up into Neutral. While they are certainly better, those same stages tend to favor G&W's movement and pressure options, so these changes are not really the kind that change anything other than matchup numbers, which I have no interest in providing at such an early stage in this game.

EDIT: I forgot the new characters as well. Lucas is favorable, Roy is neutral, and Ryu is favorable.

 

[Ghost Pikmin]

I'd rather make myself look like a fool and spark a discussion rather than say nothing and let this thread be inert, so here I go:

I don't follow the reasoning for Duck Hunt being a disadvantageous matchup. Both characters lack kill setups or kill throws on each other, making the matchup a contest of which player is better at conditioning their opponent so they can take a stock. Beyond that it feels like an archetypal zoner vs rushdown matchup. GW has to be patient about picking his openings, but successfully reading what zoning pattern Duck Hunt chooses will lead to huge damage for GW. Duck Hunt as a character already struggles at landing safely on the stage once popped up (combination of being floaty and lacking good hitboxes to contest the space below him), and GW can exploit that relatively easily to vortex him. I feel like it's an even matchup.

Would you mind explaining why the Ike matchup is fundamentally unloseable? I feel like it's G&W's advantage, but not to the point where we can autopilot/flowchart and still win against otherwise good opponents like we can in the Jigglypuff matchup. Who knows, maybe the issue is just needing to invent a whole new tier for just how awful the GW matchup is for Puff, because I don't see them as comparable. Ike at least has the ability to tomahawk G&W with the threat of well-spaced bairs, and while they aren't amazing he still does have jab mixups and a counter that G&W has to at least be mindful of. (I'm actually hopeful that I'm just playing this matchup entirely wrong and you can help me not to keep getting bodied by an Ike player that goes to my locals haha)

While I've found fighting good Falcon players annoying for reasons I can't articulate, it looks like there's some contention about whose favor the matchup is supposed to be. Some posters in the GW matchup thread have gone so far to say that it's 65:35 in GWs favor, citing the ease of GW stringing on Falcon, the ability to crouch under some of his key tools, and ease of edgeguarding. What tools would you say Falcon has in this matchup that GW struggles against?

Finally, thanks for doing these writeups periodically and trying to inject life into this dead board.

 

[NouveauRétro]

I've found Ryu to be pretty much as comboable as Captain Falcon, down to regrab combos. That should factor in. Also, Falcon in Slight Disadvantage, really? Being able to combo for 40% at low percent has to count for something. I see where you're coming from though.

 

[Folie]

this is all my opinion/based off my experience, keep in mind I'm not very exceptional with this game/character

I've found Ryu to be pretty much as comboable as Captain Falcon, down to regrab combos. That should factor in. Also, Falcon in Slight Disadvantage, really? Being able to combo for 40% at low percent has to count for something. I see where you're coming from though.

being able to combo a character well doesn't necessarily define a matchup. Cpt Falcon has a strong neutral game against G&W that, if used right by a player who knows what they're doing, should result in Cpt Falcon not getting grabbed very much imo.

I'd rather make myself look like a fool and spark a discussion rather than say nothing and let this thread be inert, so here I go:

I don't follow the reasoning for Duck Hunt being a disadvantageous matchup. Both characters lack kill setups or kill throws on each other, making the matchup a contest of which player is better at conditioning their opponent so they can take a stock. Beyond that it feels like an archetypal zoner vs rushdown matchup. GW has to be patient about picking his openings, but successfully reading what zoning pattern Duck Hunt chooses will lead to huge damage for GW. Duck Hunt as a character already struggles at landing safely on the stage once popped up (combination of being floaty and lacking good hitboxes to contest the space below him), and GW can exploit that relatively easily to vortex him. I feel like it's an even matchup.

Aside from the reasons SeanS listed, have you played against a good DHD? It's actually way more of a chore for us to get in than you think it would be. Between G&W not being a popular character and there not being a lot of DHD mains who actually play their character well (I feel like he's sort of like Pac Man in how his playstyle is kinda unconventional), there's a lot of false conceptions people have about this MU which are tbh understandable.

There's a v good DHD main in my city, hopefully someday I can get a match recorded with him that I can post.

Would you mind explaining why the Ike matchup is fundamentally unloseable? I feel like it's G&W's advantage, but not to the point where we can autopilot/flowchart and still win against otherwise good opponents like we can in the Jigglypuff matchup. Who knows, maybe the issue is just needing to invent a whole new tier for just how awful the GW matchup is for Puff, because I don't see them as comparable. Ike at least has the ability to tomahawk G&W with the threat of well-spaced bairs, and while they aren't amazing he still does have jab mixups and a counter that G&W has to at least be mindful of. (I'm actually hopeful that I'm just playing this matchup entirely wrong and you can help me not to keep getting bodied by an Ike player that goes to my locals haha)

He's just all around fully punishable and spaceable. A lot of Ike success rides on people not knowing what's punishable/not punishable or safe/not safe against him. Do some research, play him for a bit and MU should start to become a lot easier for you.

While I've found fighting good Falcon players annoying for reasons I can't articulate, it looks like there's some contention about whose favor the matchup is supposed to be. Some posters in the GW matchup thread have gone so far to say that it's 65:35 in GWs favor, citing the ease of GW stringing on Falcon, the ability to crouch under some of his key tools, and ease of edgeguarding. What tools would you say Falcon has in this matchup that GW struggles against?

See what I said above

 

[pepi1197]

Aside from the reasons SeanS listed, have you played against a good DHD? It's actually way more of a chore for us to get in than you think it would be. Between G&W not being a popular character and there not being a lot of DHD mains who actually play their character well (I feel like he's sort of like Pac Man in how his playstyle is kinda unconventional), there's a lot of false conceptions people have about this MU which are tbh understandable.

Duck Hunt's grab range and aerial followups also make it very dangerous to throw out the not safe on shield moves against a decent player. DHD's smashes even after being supposedly "buffed" still don't connect even with the change from a straight-line to conic fsmash though. I prefer G&W but I definitely play a much stronger DHD (it's not what I'd consider good though) and I'd list it as leaning neutral but still in the same category as SeanS listed it. Clay pigeon with Gunmen being thrown out above doggie make it harder to play to G&W's strengths: especially if the player does more than sit there, spam specials and roll away from pressure.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I've faced so many Captain Falcons in tournaments these last several months, and I just wanted to pop in and say that I think the matchup is even and not in CF's favor in any real capacity. I've played a slew of CF players ranging from worse than myself to better than myself, and ignoring matchup inexperience it's been nothing but wins for me. I'll be brief -

There's just too much abuse that we have on CF from DThrow + Edgeguarding. He exposes us in Neutral since we lack one, but we fair well in Disadvantage vs him and expose him right back when we gain Advantage. I can't stress enough how f'd we are in Neutral, but you should be used to that already as a G&W main (and it's not Sonic at least, whew). Ducking is neat, but it's just a minor footnote in the matchup. In closing, chain BAirs on his booty and carry him offstage and get acquainted to this common tournament character.


I also wanted to pipe in on a few others, though I'm not necessarily disagreeing:
-Villager isn't too bad, and it's very close to even. You have a lot of cool tools that other characters don't have vs him in the matchup (Being able to go deep vs him, USmash as a response to his sick aerial game, threat of bucket from misuse of Lloid). He still wins the matchup, but it's not too bad. 45-55 matchup.
-Link and Toon Link can be pretty rough, and I'm glad I have been narrowly avoiding the good ones in bracket. I think the two of them may beat us, though I feel more strongly about TL's matchup. Link is rough, but thank goodness we have abuse on him. TL is very akin to Villager, and I think it's a 45:55 matchup (Toon Link's advantage).
-I agree with the MK and Wario placements strongly. I play against a lot of both. It was strange last night, as I had two different players counterpick after my Game 1 win to switch to MK; it didn't work, Lylat + T&C are my playgrounds, bois.
-Ike's probably not that unwinnable for him, but idk since I've only demolished online Ikes.
-I keep wanting to place Ness as a neutral matchup. We have tons of options vs him, but his damage output and the threat of rage BThrow muddies the water so much.

Thanks for the discussion! This place is dead.

 

[Ghost Pikmin]

Aside from the reasons SeanS listed, have you played against a good DHD? It's actually way more of a chore for us to get in than you think it would be. Between G&W not being a popular character and there not being a lot of DHD mains who actually play their character well (I feel like he's sort of like Pac Man in how his playstyle is kinda unconventional), there's a lot of false conceptions people have about this MU which are tbh understandable.

A really good Duck Hunt player goes to my local weekly (Kocinan is his tag, he's a twitch streamer as well). I haven't fought him in bracket but we've done a ton of matches in casuals. He wins more games than I do, but it's one of those things where I can tell it's because he's outplaying me, not because his options cover my tools better than I can cover his.

Duck Hunt's grab range and aerial followups also make it very dangerous to throw out the not safe on shield moves against a decent player. DHD's smashes even after being supposedly "buffed" still don't connect even with the change from a straight-line to conic fsmash though. I prefer G&W but I definitely play a much stronger DHD (it's not what I'd consider good though) and I'd list it as leaning neutral but still in the same category as SeanS listed it. Clay pigeon with Gunmen being thrown out above doggie make it harder to play to G&W's strengths: especially if the player does more than sit there, spam specials and roll away from pressure.

G&W should be throwing DHD whenever possible, not going in with actual hitboxes. DHD might be the easiest non-heavy character to juggle and that's where GW gets to make up for the percent difference from getting chipped away by DHD walls. Most often the attack you'll go in with in the matchup is a dash attack for when you read that DHD is about to set up a gunman or throw a frisbee, but just as often a good DHD will actually rush you down suddenly when you're at midrange to catch your shield if you're expecting a projectile or mix you up with an air move/dash attack to force you back to long range, but like the projectiles GW has appropriate answers to punish DHD and force an opening if read correctly.

 

[Folie]

I've faced so many Captain Falcons in tournaments these last several months, and I just wanted to pop in and say that I think the matchup is even and not in CF's favor in any real capacity. I've played a slew of CF players ranging from worse than myself to better than myself, and ignoring matchup inexperience it's been nothing but wins for me. I'll be brief -

There's just too much abuse that we have on CF from DThrow + Edgeguarding. He exposes us in Neutral since we lack one, but we fair well in Disadvantage vs him and expose him right back when we gain Advantage. I can't stress enough how f'd we are in Neutral, but you should be used to that already as a G&W main (and it's not Sonic at least, whew). Ducking is neat, but it's just a minor footnote in the matchup. In closing, chain BAirs on his booty and carry him offstage and get acquainted to this common tournament character.

again, being able to combo a character heavily doesn't really define an MU as much as people think it does. You have to remember that while we combo him well, so does every other character in the game who has a combo game. like you said, his neutral, when played correctly, is miles above ours, which results in him not getting grabbed very often and us getting grabbed pretty often (with how fast his dash grab is, it's really not hard for him to grab us out of a lot of our moves). chain bairs aren't as effective as you'd think they'd be, one main reason being that bair has upward knockback, which is something falcon's recovery can work with unlike characters like Ganon and Mac's recovery cant. In a way, it can be almost safer for falcon to be knocked higher because of how easy it is to stage spike him with bair when he recovers low.

I also wanted to pipe in on a few others, though I'm not necessarily disagreeing:
-Villager isn't too bad, and it's very close to even. You have a lot of cool tools that other characters don't have vs him in the matchup (Being able to go deep vs him, USmash as a response to his sick aerial game, threat of bucket from misuse of Lloid). He still wins the matchup, but it's not too bad. 45-55 matchup.

I don't really see this. villager, with bair and fair spacing, really has no reason to get themselves in a situation where they have an aerial upsmahed as long as they're aware of upsmash's invincibility. all of his aerials can offer threats to a g&w going in deep offstage and he can afford to throw them out bc of how low he can recover from. Practically the only situation you can bucket lloid in 1v1 is when it hits the ledge. I can't remember the last time I've seen a half villager actually have their lloid hit the ledge. You'd probably get faired as you go to bucket it anyways if it did.

-Link and Toon Link can be pretty rough, and I'm glad I have been narrowly avoiding the good ones in bracket. I think the two of them may beat us, though I feel more strongly about TL's matchup. Link is rough, but thank goodness we have abuse on him.

some of their moves can kill us pretty early (don't ever get caught by link fsmash, jesus the knockback is ridiculous), but their neutral is a lot easier to deal with in comparison to DHDs or villagers. Not to mention bad recoveries as well. It's not a huge factor, but bucketing bombs is cool too.

A really good Duck Hunt player goes to my local weekly (Kocinan is his tag, he's a twitch streamer as well). I haven't fought him in bracket but we've done a ton of matches in casuals. He wins more games than I do, but it's one of those things where I can tell it's because he's outplaying me, not because his options cover my tools better than I can cover his.



G&W should be throwing DHD whenever possible, not going in with actual hitboxes. DHD might be the easiest non-heavy character to juggle and that's where GW gets to make up for the percent difference from getting chipped away by DHD walls. Most often the attack you'll go in with in the matchup is a dash attack for when you read that DHD is about to set up a gunman or throw a frisbee, but just as often a good DHD will actually rush you down suddenly when you're at midrange to catch your shield if you're expecting a projectile or mix you up with an air move/dash attack to force you back to long range, but like the projectiles GW has appropriate answers to punish DHD and force an opening if read correctly.

DHD's neutral is extremely tedious to get in and get a grab on. I assume the tools you're talking about are aerials to knock back the can, but a good DHD will expect that and cover the ground with either of the other specials. I'm not sure what other tools we have to deal with his neutral you are referring to. Our approach game has issues, something I believe is unanimously agreed on here, and DHD counters that fairly well in neutral. The thing that made us believe DHD was even or slightly in our favour before was how punishable his slow recovery was, but DHD can cover his recovery fairly well with the can and upair as well. If a DHD is not covering his recovery, then he is not a good DHD.

 

[Kathuzada]

Can someone explain the Sheik being unwinnable to me? I do see it in Sheik's favor but not unwinnable.
Being light helps remove us from her killing combos
We can bucket 2 strong moves
Crouch needles

 

[Folie]

being light makes the kill combos worse, the 50/50 out of downthrow is even more of a nightmare and we die early to it. a good sheik with g&w knowledge will never get upsmashed unless we perfectly predict and time it against a bad fair (really hard to do), we have no answer to SH fair spacing. Incredibly hard to edgeguard. Sheik is fast enough for all of our neutral options to not be much of an issue for her.

In terms of bucket, a good sheik will recognize that threat and 1. not use side b bc sheik really doesnt need to in this mu and 2. bait bucket when recovering and abuse its gross ending lag to stage spike us.

being floaty also makes its easier for her to kill with side b.

It's pretty easy to beat bad sheiks who dont know g&w though

 

[NouveauRétro]

being light makes the kill combos worse, the 50/50 out of downthrow is even more of a nightmare and we die early to it. a good sheik with g&w knowledge will never get upsmashed unless we perfectly predict and time it against a bad fair (really hard to do), we have no answer to SH fair spacing. Incredibly hard to edgeguard. Sheik is fast enough for all of our neutral options to not be much of an issue for her.

In terms of bucket, a good sheik will recognize that threat and 1. not use side b bc sheik really doesnt need to in this mu and 2. bait bucket when recovering and abuse its gross ending lag to stage spike us.

being floaty also makes its easier for her to kill with side b.

It's pretty easy to beat bad sheiks who dont know g&w though

Yeah, especially Shieks who think fairing on shield means roll away. Dash attack out of shield will set them straight! But yeah, Shiek never really has to extend herself to win, making this kind of a problem MU where the only way to win is to be two steps ahead( ex: reading a jump-in fair and dash-upsmashing)

Anyway, I wanted to say that edgeguarding Vanish is not that hard (idk about BF). Just run off and lob some food at the ledge with a B-reversed chef. I call it leftovers, dunno if anyone else does it. The timing and spacing to catch a sweetspotted teleport is pretty generous and not too hard to learn. Then you can land a Fire while they're in hitstun and hopefully stage spike them.
Useful against a handful of the cast with vulnerable recoveries: come to mind (Lucas is so much more gimpable then Ness lol)

 

[Kathuzada]

being light makes the kill combos worse, the 50/50 out of downthrow is even more of a nightmare and we die early to it. a good sheik with g&w knowledge will never get upsmashed unless we perfectly predict and time it against a bad fair (really hard to do), we have no answer to SH fair spacing. Incredibly hard to edgeguard. Sheik is fast enough for all of our neutral options to not be much of an issue for her.

In terms of bucket, a good sheik will recognize that threat and 1. not use side b bc sheik really doesnt need to in this mu and 2. bait bucket when recovering and abuse its gross ending lag to stage spike us.

being floaty also makes its easier for her to kill with side b.

It's pretty easy to beat bad sheiks who dont know g&w though

From what I have seen Sheik loses kill setups at higher percents (large part of why Sheik hates Lucario) and G&W reaches the higher knockback to get out of these earlier. The 50/50 should be more skewed toward the U Air because we can just bucket the UpB if we can see that coming.
For the edgegaurding I have found G&W one of the easiest characters to edge guard with (Bacon/Bair/Fair/UpB)
The Windbox on Dtilt is beneficially against Fair, but should be used carefully due to the end lag. Another decent option is the Bair (we have seen on other threads that ee can follow up after this one aswell.
As for the neutral, we don't have a Neutral against her. We have to act and know that we are in disadvantage in place of Neutral.
It is not a fundamentally unwinnable match up. Hard and not in our favor yes, unwinnable no.

 

[Folie]

all dtilting fair would do is reset to neutral, the move has too much endlag to capitalize on sheik being popped up. the bucket does not make the 50/50 any less of a 50/50, if we predict wrong and get by uair bc we're trying to bucket we still get hit by uair and we still die. assuming we dont get hit by the 50/50, sheik covers all of our landing options by shorthopping back and using needles.

g&w does have edgeguarding options but again sheik's recovery is so good that they really won't work most of the time against a sheik that knows what they're doing.

unless i see a video of the things you mentioned actually causing a noticeable difference in the MU against a GOOD sheik, there's really not any reason to believe they do make the MU less worse. To me, they just sound like practically inconsequential things or things you'd have to get very lucky with to actually make work on a good sheik.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

again, being able to combo a character heavily doesn't really define an MU as much as people think it does. You have to remember that while we combo him well, so does every other character in the game who has a combo game. like you said, his neutral, when played correctly, is miles above ours, which results in him not getting grabbed very often and us getting grabbed pretty often (with how fast his dash grab is, it's really not hard for him to grab us out of a lot of our moves). chain bairs aren't as effective as you'd think they'd be, one main reason being that bair has upward knockback, which is something falcon's recovery can work with unlike characters like Ganon and Mac's recovery cant. In a way, it can be almost safer for falcon to be knocked higher because of how easy it is to stage spike him with bair when he recovers low.

Just like everyone who has an abusive combo game on him, it's a very noteworthy thing in the matchup: Our Dash Attack is so much better here, our DThrow has truly ridiculous chains on him due to his weight/height, and our BAirs chain like butter on this man. The combos on CF are not matchup defining, but this is our Advantage state. This is what we're trying to convert our hits into.

Chaining BAirs is more about the damage and the positional advantage. We're not using it to gimp (but we do use it to stagespike his recovery). You want to get CF offstage or above you, and you want to maximize his time in these positions as long as possible.

It's a very doable matchup. I'm fairly convinced it's an even matchup. At the highest level (Like, Regi vs his CF equivalent), CF may have a minor advantage due to the neutral game.

Sonic, however...

I don't really see this. villager, with bair and fair spacing, really has no reason to get themselves in a situation where they have an aerial upsmahed as long as they're aware of upsmash's invincibility. all of his aerials can offer threats to a g&w going in deep offstage and he can afford to throw them out bc of how low he can recover from. Practically the only situation you can bucket lloid in 1v1 is when it hits the ledge. I can't remember the last time I've seen a half villager actually have their lloid hit the ledge. You'd probably get faired as you go to bucket it anyways if it did.

-Villager has lots of opportunities where they will throw out Sh NAirs/DAirs once you breach the wall of projectiles, and it's part of the tempo of playing the character. I was citing that G&W has a very clear deterrent for it, and in my tournament sets vs Villagers USmash has been VERY relevant.
-I've also gotten a bucket full in a set vs a Villager down in Rhode Island, and it's from Lloid's used for spacing. Normally, you'd get SLingshotted for attempting bucket, but dash attack while he sets Lloid can give you a free bucket - Just be aware that this trades advantage/momentum for 2 bucket slots. It's not a key feature of the matchup, but, like Link's Bombs, it's worth noting.
-Villager is stage spike bait if he goes too far off, as he wont be able to cross under the stage. G&W can threaten this from him, and then capitalize with a BAir or UpB stage spike. I'm unafraid of going for Villager offstage. You have the tools.

Point is, those are just features of the matchup. G&W doesn't fare too badly against Villager, and I think it's very akin to the Toon Link matchup (45:55 disadvantage for us). The difference is that I have played the Villager matchup a lot more than the TL one. I might be able to play vs CaptAwesum this upcoming Saturday, so I'll ideally be able to put my money where my mouth is :^)

 

[NouveauRétro]

I don't really see this. villager, with bair and fair spacing, really has no reason to get themselves in a situation where they have an aerial upsmahed as long as they're aware of upsmash's invincibility. all of his aerials can offer threats to a g&w going in deep offstage and he can afford to throw them out bc of how low he can recover from. Practically the only situation you can bucket lloid in 1v1 is when it hits the ledge. I can't remember the last time I've seen a half villager actually have their lloid hit the ledge. You'd probably get faired as you go to bucket it anyways if it did.




some of their moves can kill us pretty early (don't ever get caught by link fsmash, jesus the knockback is ridiculous), but their neutral is a lot easier to deal with in comparison to DHDs or villagers. Not to mention bad recoveries as well. It's not a huge factor, but bucketing bombs is cool too.

If you can't catch Lloid explosion you're doing it wrong. It's really not that hard. Still don't like the MU, just that Villager should NOT throw Lloids in neutral, lest he get OHKOed. I'll edit in a replay for evidence in a bit.
...
Here it is

 

[Folie]

I'll take your guys' word for it on Villager, tbh I don't get a lot of practice in that matchup and I haven't really tried to bucket lloid after i learned he cant be bucketed on impact on us.

In terms of Falcon though, you have to understand that the nature of both characters means footsies until someone gains the upper hand which should result eventually in a stock, so it comes down to neutral. Against the typical over-aggro falcon (AKA 90-99% of falcon players) we definitely can hold our own in neutral, and that's 50-50, maybe even 55-45 for us. But a Falcon who actually plays Falcon how he should be played (a patient, bait and punish character) can just play patient and bait until we make a wrong move, and come in and dash attack/grab us. So basically we lose in neutral. ofc I wouldnt say it's a horrible MU, 40-60 for falcon at the very worst, but it's not even. It just doesn't seem like it bc there are barely any patient falcons out there.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I'll concede that top level Falcon players who know the matchup probably have the slight edge, but I'm just saying that I've run into at least one set with a CF every tournament so far (he's way too popular lol) and I feel confident in the matchup. It's not too bad at all, but I can see the neutral being really rough against a patient CF. Even to 45-55 disadvantage for us.

I MM'd the best Toon Link in New England last night and won the set last night, so I'm feeling pretty good about the matchup. There were times where he felt that G&W won the matchup, and there were times that I felt that TL's tools gave him the edge. We played a good deal of friendlies after, and it seems like an even enough matchup in the end. Powershielding is so much easier when offline, whew.

Any tips on Dedede? Last night I got 13th of 92 at a weekly, and I could have gotten farther if not for matchup inexperience vs Dedede. I've taken a few out in sets in the past, but I don't really feel confident in that matchup. Any tips?

 

[Folie]

there's a couple good D3s in my city, one of them I've played quite a bit with

you probably know this, but the D3 MU is a MU where chef is actually useful as the bacon can reflect gordos. because of this, the D3 shouldn't feel safe to spam out gordos like a lot of them do. If he's approaching you from the air, try to bait out bair or something by jumping in like you're going to aerial him and then use that to punish. On the ground, he can't do much other than space with jab and ftilt (also it's helpful to know that you can get out of the jab lock a lot of times with up b, smash DI can help with this). Try to avoid rolling behind him since they live to punish rolls with downsmash.

When you get D3 offstage, you need to chase him relentlessly since it's kind of hard to kill him onstage bc of his weight and coverage. Be wary of gordos they send down while recovering. Up B is a really good option for edgeguarding him. Try to avoid using bair unless you know its going to kill, its upward knockback can make it a lot easier for D3 to recover.

Where we're threatened the most by D3 is when we're being edgeguarded. He has a wall of coverage options against us and if he reads our recovery, it can easily result in a stock loss if we're at a reasonably high %

hopefully that helps a bit

 

[Xeze]

Out of curiosity, why are the MUs vs Ike and Jigglypuff "fundamentally unlosable"?

 

[Folie]

upsmash and bair invalidate like 90% of jiggs approach options
ike is mostly entirely outspaceable and punishable, and his horrible recovery makes him p easy to kill early

 

[Kofu]

upsmash and bair invalidate like 90% of jiggs approach options
ike is mostly entirely outspaceable and punishable, and his horrible recovery makes him p easy to kill early

I'm pretty certain that Ragnell outspaces most of our options, not the other way around. I'd also like to know how you plan on punishing retreating FAir, which is huge, complimented by Ike's good air speed, and autocancels. I'm sure dash attack comes close but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't work. His recovery I'll give you, but Ike is a considerable threat.

 

[Folie]

probably shouldve emphasized, his actually dangerous moves are punishable and spaceable. yeah, he has some safe aerials, but they're slow as hell and that doesn't make him a decent character when he's too slow to really trap, punish or capitalize on anything against a good player. Ike's a bad character, the only way I ever see him win is against people who play badly and/or don't understand how Ike works. If you're playing well and not going in when you shouldn't be, Ike should have a lot of trouble landing hits on you.

 

[Denzill7]

As long as you play defensively and conservatively against Ike, he should have a hard time approaching you with a kill move that isn't incredibly punishable, leading into G&W getting big punishes and edgeguards. As long as you don't run into one of his powerful attacks and get killed really early, it should be a really advantageous MU.

 

[Folie]

As long as you play defensively and conservatively against Ike, he should have a hard time approaching you with a kill move that isn't incredibly punishable, leading into G&W getting big punishes and edgeguards. As long as you don't run into one of his powerful attacks and get killed really early, it should be a really advantageous MU.

you explain it way better than I do lol

 

[GimR]

FUNDAMENTALLY UNWINNABLE (The Dastardly Four)
Diddy [G&W does insanely well against diddy compared to the other good characters. I think the matchup is een TBH
Sheik [Probably his worst matchup for now]
Fox [Now that Fox can't jab jab up smash G&W I think this matach up is only slightly in Fox's favor. You can kill him at like 80 with down throw up-air and like 65 with rage. If you read his Side-B recovery once you can hit with a light f-air which forces him to up-B which is a free kill no matter what percent he's at]
Sonic [Probably his second worst matchup. I'm working on some edge guard tactics against Sonic though that might put it in the slight disadvantage category eventually]
[Luigi should be in here. Although you can edge guard him in some scenarios he can combo you to 70 off 2 reads and then kill you off of a grab]
[Rosalina should be here too. It's an insanely difficult matchup. you ledge options are nothing and it's hard to deal with her neutral]

SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE
Duck Hunt
Yoshi
Bowser [G&W beats Bowser he can't land and he can't get back to the stage. It's scary since he can kill you super early but you kind of have to run into his stuff for it to work]
(Dark) Pit
ROB [This is probably even. The only way ROB can get a guaranteed kill on G&W below 100% is d-throw up-air but you can crouch his grab when he's clearly fishing for this stuff. Also it's really easy to edge guard him etc. If you dash attack his recovery with a 1 framer it actually is untechable]
Falcon [G&W wins this matchup]
Villager
G&W (yes)

NEUTRAL
Junior (MATCHUP TBD)
Link
Toon Link
ZSS [This is probably right, if you crouch and force ZSS to do low aerials you can just d-tilt her on reaction and put here in an awkard situation. That being said you can barely down throw up-air her for the kill and it's REALLY hard to edge guard while she can kill you off a throw at like 20%]
Kirby
Pikachu [This might possibly be in G&W's favor. See how well Regi did against Esam? If customs were off he would have taken it]
Greninja (MATCHUP TBD)
Olimar [100% in Olimar's favor. It's hard to edge guard him and he destroys G&W in the neutral]
Pac Man
Marcina
Roy

SLIGHT ADVANTAGE
Lucas
Samus
Mega Man
Palutena
Mario [Mario probably wins slighlty]
Peach [ Think this is even]
Wario
DK [With my new d-air tech off the ledge I think this is super in G&W's favor now]
Zelda
Ganon
Robin
DeDeDe
MK
Little Mac
Falco
Charizard
Lucario
Ness
WFT
Dr. Mario
Shulk
Mewtwo
Mii Fighter
Mii Gunner (MATCHUP TBD)
Mii Swordsman (MATCHUP TBD)
Ryu

FUNDAMENTALLY UNLOSEABLE
Ike
Jigglypuff [I have trouble against good Jiggz don't know why it'd be unlosable]

 

[Kofu]

My opinions aren't the greatest right now because I haven't played in a while, but I'm not convinced Luigi is unwinnable. His grab reward is disgusting especially since he can kill us quite quickly with DThrow to Cyclone. However our disjoijts can wall him out and with the fireball lag increase and the decrease in hitstun that crouching gives us we should he able to challenge fireball approaches with jab. His recovery is a weak point but jumpless Cyclone makes it harder to challenge. The way I see it the matchup is similar to pre-patch Diddy where we have some good tools but their risk/reward ratio, especially from a grab, skews the matchup in their favor. Frustratingly the end lag on Bucket makes it almost a non-point in the fight simce it basically guarantees Luigi a grab. I actually thought it could be in our favor a while ago but a fight against a very skilled Japanese Luigi on For Glory changed my opinion. He even used grounded wavebounced Fireballs if I'm not mistaken.

I'm more certain about Jigglypuff however. FAir, BAir, DTilt, and USmash beat every aerial option she has. Grounded her dash attack is powerful but it's similar to our own in that it's punishable on shield. She can't approach because we wall her out. Her weaving is frustrating but manageable. I'm curious to hear what you have specific trouble with when fighting her.

 

[Folie]

Diddy [G&W does insanely well against diddy compared to the other good characters. I think the matchup is een TBH

Kofu put it well above, diddy really faces minimal risk in this matchup compaired to how easily he can kill us with banana setups. He has no problem resetting to neutral and we can't capitalize as much as other characters with quick punishes like Yoshi and Fox can when we get a hold of the banana. I can't verify or deverify that it's one of our worst, but I can definitely say with confidence that he's not a good MU for us.

Fox [Now that Fox can't jab jab up smash G&W I think this matach up is only slightly in Fox's favor. You can kill him at like 80 with down throw up-air and like 65 with rage. If you read his Side-B recovery once you can hit with a light f-air which forces him to up-B which is a free kill no matter what percent he's at]

the jab really had nothing to do with why this MU was one of our worst. idk where you're getting those figures about downthrow upair when I know that's not even true for lighter characters like pika. Poor DI due to matchup inexperience maybe? Either way it should be super hard to grab Fox in the first place. In any case, this MU is horrible because a load of things we do can easily be punished by dash usmash. Not sure how many Foxes actually know this (it seems to be a common thing that Fox players don't seem to understand how to fight g&w). It should also be incredibly hard to edgeguard him, if you're succesfully edgeguarding Fox, either A) the Fox is being wayyyyyy too predictable about his recovery and is probably side b'ing onstage like an idiot, B) You got a lucky read or rarely ever C) you got lucky and landed a 3 frame window? i dont remember off the top of my head punish on the ledge with a sweetspotted dsmash

[Luigi should be in here. Although you can edge guard him in some scenarios he can combo you to 70 off 2 reads and then kill you off of a grab]

Kofu again posted a p good summary as to why we believe its in our favour. I don't think it's as strongly in our favour as we think it is due to the reasons you said but we still dominate him in neutral and have easy edgeguard options against him.

[Rosalina should be here too. It's an insanely difficult matchup. you ledge options are nothing and it's hard to deal with her neutral]

as SeanS said, it's not as bad as we thought it was. The more you play against her the more ways you find to deal with her neutral, and then she dies to uair and usmash pretty early. I would've agreed with you until fairly recently when I sat down and played about 2-3hours against a rosa and i wanted to die during every second in it. Frustrating as all living hell? **** yes. Fundamentally unwinnable? nah

Bowser [G&W beats Bowser he can't land and he can't get back to the stage. It's scary since he can kill you super early but you kind of have to run into his stuff for it to work]

I'm gonna throw this out right now: I don't think you've ever faced a good Bowser, much less one that knows the G&W matchup. He safely outspaces us in neutral, is very hard to get a kill on, has a decent recovery that takes some effort to gimp, and like you said, kills us super early.

ROB [This is probably even. The only way ROB can get a guaranteed kill on G&W below 100% is d-throw up-air but you can crouch his grab when he's clearly fishing for this stuff. Also it's really easy to edge guard him etc. If you dash attack his recovery with a 1 framer it actually is untechable]

It's probably closer to even than any of our other unfavourable matchups. The MU isn't about guaranteed kills, it's about ROB's coverage. He won't be grabbing you rawly in neutral, he'll be trapping you with the spin top and putting you into tight positions where he can punish you in. The only answer we have to the spin top ledge trap is using up b's invincibility to get past it which puts us in a bad position and is fairly easily readable. But things like the fact we can bucket laser, combo him easily, and his lack of ways to cover his slow recovery puts this closer to neutral. I also think ROB and g&w's neutral games are pretty even against eachother.

Falcon [G&W wins this matchup]

against 90-99% of Falcons for sure. keep in mind that we assume that the player is playing the character with the right mindset, which most Falcon players really don't play with.

NEUTRAL

ZSS [This is probably right, if you crouch and force ZSS to do low aerials you can just d-tilt her on reaction and put here in an awkard situation. That being said you can barely down throw up-air her for the kill and it's REALLY hard to edge guard while she can kill you off a throw at like 20%]

A lot of people really underestimate how good and influential crouching is in this MU. I never understood this MU until Sean told me to crouch more and the very next match I did against ZSS my mind changed instantly. In terms of edgeguarding, try to fair her right as she uses the side b to recover. The timing is hard to get but once you get into it it's super helpful.

Pikachu [This might possibly be in G&W's favor. See how well Regi did against Esam? If customs were off he would have taken it]

Definitely agree with this, imo I'd put the MU as 55-45 for us but I could be wrong, while I have played a lot of Pikas, I'm not sure how many of them were good and understood the MU. I assume we have problems gimping and dealing with Quick Attack movement.

Olimar [100% in Olimar's favor. It's hard to edge guard him and he destroys G&W in the neutral]

From what I've seen in the last match I watched you vs Logic, it seemed like it could go either way, thought I'm leaning more towards olimar's favour. The problem is that you vs Logic is basically the only source we have for this MU since good Olimars are hard to come by and I think we want to see more good g&w's go at good olimars before we reach a conclusion.

Mario [Mario probably wins slighlty]

It can be really ambiguous, but I lean towards 55-45 for Mario since he's easy to edgeguard and easy to trap into upsmashes. His punishes are a lot better than ours for sure though, but that's not saying much. People sleep on Mario way too much.

Peach [ Think this is even]

You could definitely make a case for it being even imo. I can't say much, the only Peach main in my area dropped her for Luigi before I was good enough at g&w to form an opinion about the MU

Jigglypuff [I have trouble against good Jiggz don't know why it'd be unlosable]

like I said before, usmash and bair invalidates most of her approaches. She's too slow and has no range to deal with our disjoints, our recovery, anything really.

 

[Denzill7]

Sheik is such a nightmare MU. Does anyone know how to deal with a campy Sheik that just chucks needles at you and waits for you to approach? Even if I crouch under needles, she just charges some more and waits. She punishes everything you throw out in neutral.

 

[NouveauRétro]

It is NOT hard to edgeguard Olimar. I'm at Cornell now and my Wii U is at home but I have a perfect replay to demonstrate that. Hopefully no updates ruin replays before I can get to it again.

 

[NouveauRétro]

DK [With my new d-air tech off the ledge I think this is super in G&W's favor now]

SO in G&W's favor

lol jk who's going to get grabbed at 2% at the ledge

 

[Aphistemi]

FUNDAMENTALLY UNWINNABLE (The Dastardly Four)
Sheik (Fundamentally, you will most likely never win a set against a Sheik at high level play, unless you play flawless, and that does not happen often, we're just humans. you may win a few rounds in a endless friendly, but never in a set where it matters like a tourney, just pick up a secondary, if you really want your chances of winning to be any high, or grind the matchup to the bone.)

Fox (Slighty in fox favor, it's really not that bad)

Diddy (Same as GimR's Opinion)


Sonic (Now with the meta growing, Sonics have new tech, new ways to get around things, and more damaging combos, Sonic vs G&W has got to be one of the most frustrating matchups for him, you literally have to read the library to beat Sonic, you have to make hard reads / A good read to take stocks, with no good kill setups, or kill throws, and it's already hard alone to grab him to do your d-throw combos, he's always moving and spin dashing, this make the mu really hard for him. definitely a bad matchup, but still winnable)

SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE
Rosalina ( I agree with this, and what GimR said)

Yoshi (Yoshi can kill extremely early, Yoshi can also jump out of D-Throw combos, making it hard to build up damage, but At around 20/30% you can do Nair out of D-throw, but after awhile, you can't do much at higher %, and upsmash makes it easier overall for G&W, to counter Yoshi's Aerials, but not by much)

Bowser ( I actually agree with this one. It's an uphill battle, You can do D-throw combos all you want, and juggle Bowser in the air, but you are only building up rage for his already powerful attacks, if you mess up once or twice, you are dead, This MU is a perfect example of basic life, you can work your way up to be successful, have a house, wife, etc, but you can lose it all if you make one or two really bad life decisions )

Duck Hunt (MU should be even, both don't have any good kill setups, or kill throws, it's really about who can take the stock first, there's nothing fancy about this MU, play it safe, and play it right)

(Dark) Pit ( I can agree on this as well, especially Pit, his Side B reads can kill at 90%, he can outspace you, and punish a lot of your attacks, and his F-throw kills early.)

ROB ( I have the same opinion as GimR, Should be Even.

Falcon (G&W SHOULD win this matchup, but at best, I think it's even, ducking is just a gimmick, nothing a good falcon can't adapt to, and with constant short hop Bairs, with almost no landing lag kinda makes it hard to use crouch and punish options, It's basically who can take the stocks off first in a very short amount of time.)

Villager (Disagree, Loyds can be bucket, that takes off one zoning option Villager has, Fairs and Bairs can be crouched under, both have great recoveries, and G&W's Up B has super armor, Fsmash from Villager can't be spammed off stage. MU in my opinion is Even to Slightly in Villager's favor, only because he can kill early, if not careful.

G&W (All Dittos should be even, no matter who the character is.)

NEUTRAL
Junior (May be in JR's favor, Similar to Bowser, you gotta work hard to take stocks, and he just needs a few Bairs, Fairs, or Fsmash reads to take you out easily, but you do have bacon for most of his approach options, which is good. )

Link (I agree)

Toon Link (I disagree, Toon link is harder to combo, and he still has good kill power. slightly in Toon Link's favor)

ZSS (Agree)

Kirby (Agree

Pikachu (In G&W's favor, same as GimR's opinion)

Greninja (This is in Greninja's favor, he's kinda like a mini sheik, this is why it's only slightly in his favor, and not "unwinnable")

Olimar (Same as GimR's opinion, approaching is a pain... getting combos off of throws, and combos in general is a pain, taking stocks is a pain, while Oilmar can switch between Purple Pikmin that can kill early, and Blue Pkmin that can grab if they see you are block happy, Not a fun MU)

Pac Man (In my opinion, this is Pac-Man's favor,

Marcina (I Agree I guess)

Roy (Should be in Roy's favor, Roy killing extremely early, he's really fast, and basically they just made him really good in this game, giving G&W some trouble.)

SLIGHT ADVANTAGE
Lucas (He's too new, Not sure, Up B on PkThunder is a lot harder to do with the snake rope option, and he has a better controlled PKThunder)

Samus (Agree)

Mega Man (Agreed, if played right.)

Palutena (Agreed, without Customs of course)

Mario (Disagree, If anything it's even to Mario's Favor)

Luigi (No way this is in G&W's favor...)

Peach (Even)

Wario (Wario wins this matchup, not sure why this is listed as G&W's favor, what can G&W do? Wario is heavy, he kills early, has good recovery, and Waft is like G&W's bucket, without absorbing stuff.)

DK (Agreed if played right)

Zelda (I'm not sure.)

Ganon (Agreed)

Robin (Agreed)

DeDeDe (Agreed, if played right, otherwise you will die early)

MK (Disagree, this is in MK's favor because he can apply a lot of pressure, react fast, and kill early with upair upair up B)

Little Mac (Not sure if I agree on this, I played a lot of smart Macs that make this MU frustrating, but these Macs are dying out, so it's whatever)

Falco (Meh.. I think it's even)

Charizard (Charizard is pretty good now, especially with up throw option, I think it's in Charizard's Favor)

Lucario (I've never seen this MU in high level play ever, and I never played a good lucario, so IDK)

Ness (This is for sure in G&W's favor, no questions asked.)

WFT (I guess)

Dr. Mario (Agreed if played right, and take Dr Mario off-stage, otherwise its a lot harder than Mario, since Pills can't be bucket, and Doc kills early)

Shulk (No, I think Shulk wins this, the spacing, Switching between arts that can kill you REALLY early, and him surviving 9s with shield, and other stuff, definitely in Shulk's favor)

Mewtwo (Well yeah... Mewtwo is pretty bad.)

Mii Fighter (Mii Brawler wins this, Brawler has too many True combo setups that can kill G&W early.

Mii Gunner (G&W should win this, so I agree, if he can win against Samus, then he definitely can on this MU)

Mii Swordsman (I only played this MU a few times, I think it's even/slight G&W's favor)
Ryu (I'm not sure)

FUNDAMENTALLY UNLOSEABLE
Ike (This makes me laugh, Ike wins this matchup on so many levels, it's not even funny, The spacing is real, Kill options are real, and the ONLY thing G&W wins, is offstage game. This MU is frustrating.)
Jigglypuff (Some good Jiggs keep me on my toes, so it can be winnable for Jiggs,

 

[warionumbah2]

Can anyone explain to me why G&W wins, especially Gimr if possible since there's no good MKs at his region. So i wonder where the solid MU exp came from(unless this is all theorycraft).

 

[Folie]

Can anyone explain to me why G&W wins, especially Gimr if possible since there's no good MKs at his region. So i wonder where the solid MU exp came from(unless this is all theorycraft).

MK's neutral is pretty bad against g&w, it's pretty easy and safe to camp him with bair. MK gets combo'd easily and has a lot of problems getting back on the ground. It's true you can kill us pretty early but because of the combination of our floatiness and light weight, it's super hard to actually get those kills. Your slow air speed also makes you an easy target for offstage stuff (aside from stage spikes which more or less wont ever happen against MK)

@ Aphistemi please read my response to Gimr's post, it addresses a lot of things you said and I don't want to write paragraphs of me basically repeating myself

 

[Aphistemi]

MK's neutral is pretty bad against g&w, it's pretty easy and safe to camp him with bair. MK gets combo'd easily and has a lot of problems getting back on the ground. It's true you can kill us pretty early but because of the combination of our floatiness and light weight, it's super hard to actually get those kills. Your slow air speed also makes you an easy target for offstage stuff (aside from stage spikes which more or less wont ever happen against MK)

@ Aphistemi please read my response to Gimr's post, it addresses a lot of things you said and I don't want to write paragraphs of me basically repeating myself

I know exactly what you said, and there's nothing you can say to change my opinion, these are my experiences with the matchups, the meta, and the things I can, and cannot do when I tested it out in the lab.

I consider myself a good, and dedicated G&W main. unless you can show me, (not tell me) with video footage of you playing these matchups at a decent level, lets say top 10 platinum players Anthers ladder, not for glory, then you can probably change my opinion

 

[Folie]

I'm not gonna partake in an ego-measuring contest. This is discussion, so please discuss. Also, if you're going to apply burden of proof to people, remember that burden of proof also rests on you.

Fox (Slighty in fox favor, it's really not that bad)

Again, not really. Most people don't seem to understand this because a lot of Fox mains recover onstage frequently and predictably and get punished for it when there's really no reason for them to do so against g&w considering the amount of ways Fox can mix up recovery, not to mention Up b's massive priority. Fox can punish the majority of G&W's moves on reaction and easily land kills with dash upsmash punishes on reaction. Fox can simply sit back and wait for g&w to throw out a move in most situations. These aren't opinions, these are facts based on character's abilities and properties.

Duck Hunt (MU should be even, both don't have any good kill setups, or kill throws, it's really about who can take the stock first, there's nothing fancy about this MU, play it safe, and play it right)

Provide more info. How can g&w deal with DHD covering his recovery with the can when attempting to edgeguard? How do you suggest g&w deal with DHD's heavily defensive neutral game with his limited approach ability? It's not particularly hard for DHD to force g&w into shield and get a grab out of it, or punish g&w for trying to knock the can out of the stage.

Falcon (G&W SHOULD win this matchup, but at best, I think it's even, ducking is just a gimmick, nothing a good falcon can't adapt to, and with constant short hop Bairs, with almost no landing lag kinda makes it hard to use crouch and punish options, It's basically who can take the stocks off first in a very short amount of time.)

crouch only negates grab and poorly spaced dash attack (and ftilt but really when's the last time you predicted and crouched a pivot ftilt?). It could be actually argued crouching is a worse option than spot dodging since you can still avoid other attacks and punish with a spot dodge. How do you suggest G&W deals with Cpt Falcon's patient bait and punish style, as things like landing bair can actually easily be baited and punished by Falcon?

Villager (Disagree, Loyds can be bucket, that takes off one zoning option Villager has, Fairs and Bairs can be crouched under, both have great recoveries, and G&W's Up B has super armor, Fsmash from Villager can't be spammed off stage. MU in my opinion is Even to Slightly in Villager's favor, only because he can kill early, if not careful.

G&W's up B actually has invincibility, not super armor (super armor still takes damage, just no stun, and many armored moves can be interrupted with multi hits and/or strong hits. the same is not true for invincible moves like g&w's up b. It's a pretty important distinction) , but only on startup. If G&W is recovering low, it's quite possible for villager to hit with offstage fsmash, and all of villager's other usual zoning moves can cover stage level and some higher recoveries. Being able to bucket lloid also has its downsides, there is timing of the explosion to consider, and the fact you more or less have to reset to neutral or put yourself in a recovery situation to do, both things you really don't want to do against Villager (assuming the villager isnt continually throwing lloid at the wall of the stage like an idiot). Bucket's endlag also puts G&W in a punishable position as well.

G&W (All Dittos should be even, no matter who the character is.)

This is dumb and I don't know why I'm arguing about this but the idea behind G&W dittos being 45-45 is that G&W should play very differently and if you try to play a G&W ditto the same way you'd play against the majority of the cast, you'd be putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Pac Man (In my opinion, this is Pac-Man's favor,

why?

Roy (Should be in Roy's favor, Roy killing extremely early, he's really fast, and basically they just made him really good in this game, giving G&W some trouble.)

Roy isn't fast, his punishes are fast. It's true his punishes are incredibly good, but he lacks tools to really trap anyone into. He doesn't have great spacing despite being a sword character and comboing g&w is difficult for him. A poor horizontal recovery ability also helps us. This MU would be pretty close to where the Marth MU is, but Roy's amazing punish moves make it even.

Luigi (No way this is in G&W's favor...)

People need to get this out of their heads. Luigi doesn't have a good neutral against g&w. How do you suggest Luigi deal with bair spacing? Pivot ftilts? Nair and Utilt keeping him from landing? The fact all of his aerials are easy to upsmash? Not to a mention he's an easily gimpable character.

Zelda (I'm not sure.)

What do you think Zelda has in her favour against g&w? genuinely curious, I've never really played anyone decent with this character, I just know her moveset isn't great.

MK (Disagree, this is in MK's favor because he can apply a lot of pressure, react fast, and kill early with upair upair up B)

See my post above, how can he apply pressure when getting camped out by bair? Do you know how easy it is for us to get out of upair strings compaired to other characters? MK's neutral is just straight up subpar.

Little Mac (Not sure if I agree on this, I played a lot of smart Macs that make this MU frustrating, but these Macs are dying out, so it's whatever)

We have a strong offstage presence, he's the easiest character in the game to gimp, and that's the majority of the reason why this MU is in our favour. His neutral is strong but it doesnt take much to put him into a bad offstage situation.

Falco (Meh.. I think it's even)

Why?

Mii Fighter (Mii Brawler wins this, Brawler has too many True combo setups that can kill G&W early.

idk if we're accounting customs here but either way 1. stop di'ing in 2. use your up b to get out of stuff. At high percents, stick to mostly shielding, he can't do much to at high percents out of grab.

Ike (This makes me laugh, Ike wins this matchup on so many levels, it's not even funny, The spacing is real, Kill options are real, and the ONLY thing G&W wins, is offstage game. This MU is frustrating.)

people lose to Ike because they play his game, they dive into him and try to punish things in conventional ways that dont work. Bait and punish, shield his aerials when you know he's going to cover himself with them and keep him in the air. Play patient and this MU is easy.

 

[NotAsian]

Pacman-upsmash his hydrant right as it comes down it makes this move less useful for him also challenging him off stage helps too

GW- have alot of trouble against even bad gws i hate dittos with a passion unless it's macs or Kirby. I always get hit by bair even though I know how long it lasts i have to completely change how I think to win

 

[warionumbah2]

See my post above, how can he apply pressure when getting camped out by bair? Do you know how easy it is for us to get out of upair strings compaired to other characters? MK's neutral is just straight up subpar.
.

MK's neutral is pretty bad against g&w, it's pretty easy and safe to camp him with bair. MK gets combo'd easily and has a lot of problems getting back on the ground. It's true you can kill us pretty early but because of the combination of our floatiness and light weight, it's super hard to actually get those kills. Your slow air speed also makes you an easy target for offstage stuff (aside from stage spikes which more or less wont ever happen against MK)

This was funny to read. whatever then.

 

[Aphistemi]

I'm not gonna partake in an ego-measuring contest. This is discussion, so please discuss. Also, if you're going to apply burden of proof to people, remember that burden of proof also rests on you.

Isn't that what I'm doing? discussing? I shared my opinion on this as a G&W main, where am I making this an "ego-measuring contest"? I asked you to provide video footage, such as training room, saved replays, they can be uploaded to youtube now, or even short clips of what you are talking about, so I can get a better understanding.

You are literally trying to enforce my experiences with my main, and all of the matchups I have faced, as facts, I mention myself being a good G&W player because playing at a higher level really shows what the matchup can do to certain characters, and different ways you get around their pressure, setups, kill options, and overall gameplay, I don't care if you are extremely good, or extremely bad, I asked for video footage, but you give me more stuff that I believe can be dealt with differently, because I actually have dealt with it differently. You don't have to agree with me, but don't get on my back when I ask for proof for these actions, then you ask the exact same thing, and you provide me with nothing but more of what you already said, I want your experiences in these situations, obviously you have been into them many times, so you don't have one replay?

Again, not really. Most people don't seem to understand this because a lot of Fox mains recover onstage frequently and predictably and get punished for it when there's really no reason for them to do so against g&w considering the amount of ways Fox can mix up recovery, not to mention Up b's massive priority. Fox can punish the majority of G&W's moves on reaction and easily land kills with dash upsmash punishes on reaction. Fox can simply sit back and wait for g&w to throw out a move in most situations. These aren't opinions, these are facts based on character's abilities and properties.

Where have you seen a fox do this competitively offline/online? you talk about this stuff, but I have never seen it in action, not even at Evo, or Winter Brawl which I was Watching a few months ago, seeing the Fox vs G&W matchup at a pretty decent level, foxes do not have "sit back", you make this sound like meta knight brawl time of stuff, fox vs G&W is not unwinnable. It's hard, sure, but definitely not "unwinnable"

Provide more info. How can g&w deal with DHD covering his recovery with the can when attempting to edgeguard? How do you suggest g&w deal with DHD's heavily defensive neutral game with his limited approach ability? It's not particularly hard for DHD to force g&w into shield and get a grab out of it, or punish g&w for trying to knock the can out of the stage.

G&W can Bucket Clay shot:

it can be a stock on rage, or worse, without rage if thrown at Duckhunt, This cancels out one of his annoying tools he can use against you, making the neutral a lot more bearable, you can use bacon to help you get near DH easier, or play mind games with him, with phantom hops, DH can win the matchup on certain stages, but that's why it's called Counterpick stages.

crouch only negates grab and poorly spaced dash attack (and ftilt but really when's the last time you predicted and crouched a pivot ftilt?). It could be actually argued crouching is a worse option than spot dodging since you can still avoid other attacks and punish with a spot dodge. How do you suggest G&W deals with Cpt Falcon's patient bait and punish style, as things like landing bair can actually easily be baited and punished by Falcon?

Nothing stops falcon from learning the G&W matchup, At best, when fully mastered, it can be only even, because G&W can still combo him easily, bacon helps a lot when he's doing short hop bairs, or even trying to attack you in the air, but do not over use bacon. You can also do the combo Retro posted on him, it's a little harder, but still can be done, and still can be a stock. you shouldn't over use shield, and you should spotdodge more, and you will keep the falcon guessing with his approaches, A lot of falcon mains Offline and Online say G&W can potentally win the matchup, I'm not saying this alone.

G&W's up B actually has invincibility, not super armor (super armor still takes damage, just no stun, and many armored moves can be interrupted with multi hits and/or strong hits. the same is not true for invincible moves like g&w's up b. It's a pretty important distinction) , but only on startup. If G&W is recovering low, it's quite possible for villager to hit with offstage fsmash, and all of villager's other usual zoning moves can cover stage level and some higher recoveries. Being able to bucket lloid also has its downsides, there is timing of the explosion to consider, and the fact you more or less have to reset to neutral or put yourself in a recovery situation to do, both things you really don't want to do against Villager (assuming the villager isnt continually throwing lloid at the wall of the stage like an idiot). Bucket's endlag also puts G&W in a punishable position as well.

I know his Up B has invincibility frames, I've said this in a video I made about G&W few days ago, Super Armor was something else I was thinking.

The matchup can be learned, making it even at best, but its still in Villager's favor because of the kill power, physical projectiles, and setups he can do. you don't wanna blindly run into villager, he has too much going for him, you need to plan out your attacks. Bucket jumping:

can also come extremely in handy when trying to avoid Villager's edgeguarding pressure. to avoid fsmash, and even stall out attacks, like trees, or give you an extra boost so you can be safe. when you're getting blasted off stage, or thrown off, also to throw out a random bucket, so your second jump can be used for extra jumping height, Villager can reach you and he has no Up B attacks.

This is dumb and I don't know why I'm arguing about this but the idea behind G&W dittos being 45-45 is that G&W should play very differently and if you try to play a G&W ditto the same way you'd play against the majority of the cast, you'd be putting yourself at a disadvantage.

If a match is considered a disadvantageous matchup, it's a bad matchup for one character and a good matchup for the other. When you're both using the exact same character... it can become pretty mind blowing.. You're literally saying that both sides lose and win at the same time. Not metaphorically. Literally.

Every fighting game has dittos listed as a 5-5 Even matchup, If you wanna keep thinking that's dumb, I really don't care.

why?

Because pacman has full ground control over the stage, making it extremely hard for G&W to do his d-throw combos, he's constantly throwing out fire hydrants, Doing grounded trampolines, and generally messing you up and avoiding the grabs, G&W benefits from grabs a lot, you should know this, and not being able to do that the entire match makes it hard, all the while Pacman can keep doing his setups, build up keys, play mind games with fruits so you can't dlit them in time, Explain to me why G&W should win this matchup? or at best, have it even?

Roy isn't fast, his punishes are fast. It's true his punishes are incredibly good, but he lacks tools to really trap anyone into. He doesn't have great spacing despite being a sword character and comboing g&w is difficult for him. A poor horizontal recovery ability also helps us. This MU would be pretty close to where the Marth MU is, but Roy's amazing punish moves make it even.

Yes Roy has bad recovery, but he also has armor on the recovery, you can't just go out and gimp him, that's pretty hard, especially since he does have a hitbox on the Up B. A bait and punish roy can be scary, just like the Bowser matchup, but not AS bad, because he can kill you in a few swings. I could agree on it being at least even. but nothing on G&W's side being beneficial..

People need to get this out of their heads. Luigi doesn't have a good neutral against g&w. How do you suggest Luigi deal with bair spacing? Pivot ftilts? Nair and Utilt keeping him from landing? The fact all of his aerials are easy to upsmash? Not to a mention he's an easily gimpable character.

Easily Gimpable? have you not seen Boss' Luigi? Go on youtube and watch 5 of Boss' matches, and tell me even at the time frame, where boss gets "easily gimped", Luigi can go sooooo damn low into the blast zone, and come back up like a bullet, and there's nothing you can do about it because he's attacking on all sides, he doesn't even need to be near the edge, so key doesn't work half the time. and if you try to gimp him while he's doing this, you will get stage spiked.

He's easily gimpable for characters like Sheik, Rosalina, and maybe Pacman with Hydrants, but physically going after Luigi when he's doing this, is a dumb Idea. Luigi half the time don't even need Side B to recover or do this.

See my post above, how can he apply pressure when getting camped out by bair? Do you know how easy it is for us to get out of upair strings compaired to other characters? MK's neutral is just straight up subpar.

So you're telling me that G&W wins the matchup, but MK can beat / even out one of G&W's worst matchups? (Sheik), Dumb metaknights will run into spaced out Bairs, but G&W does get landing lag from it, and MK is fast, he can punish with a dash attack into upairs, and possibly Up B's, The MKs I fight don't normally miss this string, it doesn't take much for a MK to figure out how to do the string on light characters. MK is also pretty good in the air.

We have a strong offstage presence, he's the easiest character in the game to gimp, and that's the majority of the reason why this MU is in our favour. His neutral is strong but it doesnt take much to put him into a bad offstage situation.

It's really not THAT easy to get a really smart little mac off stage, the little mac boards can agree on this, at least 90% of them, a smart little mac would know how to avoid the situation G&W is trying to put him into, abusing armor on the right moments, avoiding grabs, and poking G&W out is extremely annoying, and he has the KO punch that can kill no matter if you are at 0.

I haven't seen these macs anymore sadly, but I think I have a replay I could dig up, if the patch didn't already corrupt it.

Falco (Meh.. I think it's even)

why? from personal experience fighting good ones on anthers ladder, they have good aeirals that can kill G&W fast, Backair comes out extremely fast and has very little landing lag that can kill G&W pretty easily, kill power mixed with setups, and falco is pretty hard to take down, but his off-stage game is bad compared to G&W, G&W can take advantage of this, most likely leading to taking a stock, the matchup is even because he doesn't have a lot of what fox can do. but he still has a lot of things going on for him as his own character, especially with the buffs.

idk if we're accounting customs here but either way 1. stop di'ing in 2. use your up b to get out of stuff. At high percents, stick to mostly shielding, he can't do much to at high percents out of grab.

You cannot DI, or Up B out of true combos, this is without customs, and the fact that some of his true combos can kill early with a guarantee kill option, unlike G&W, he has none.

people lose to Ike because they play his game, they dive into him and try to punish things in conventional ways that dont work. Bait and punish, shield his aerials when you know he's going to cover himself with them and keep him in the air. Play patient and this MU is easy.

And what's stopping Ike from playing YOUR game? He can easily adapt to what you are doing, and start punishing you for it, because the Ike decides not to play your game of waiting, Ike has power, and most of the time you will need to perfect shield to get into him, but he's also a lot more safe with rage on block, and one wrong move can lead you to losing a stock, Send me proof of this MU being "easy"

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

G&W can Bucket Clay shot:

it can be a stock on rage, or worse, without rage if thrown at Duckhunt, This cancels out one of his annoying tools he can use against you, making the neutral a lot more bearable, you can use bacon to help you get near DH easier, or play mind games with him, with phantom hops, DH can win the matchup on certain stages, but that's why it's called Counterpick stages.

While it's amazing that G&W has this powerful option against DH, I can't imagine actually Bucketing his shot-up Clays and exploding Cans during a real match being easy to do, especially if DH reads the Bucketing attempts and either mixes up his Clay & Can usages, and/or rushes you down for it, especially with a Gunman set up beforehand, which I'm certain canNOT be Bucketed. I myself struggle with consistently Bucketing shot-up Clays and exploding Cans, due to DHs mixing up their timings on shooting up the Clay, the Can often going off-stage or hitting me (and my shield) directly or being guarded by DH himself before I can run over to the explosion, and DH rushing me down on top of all that.

Over at the Duck Hunt board's MU thread, I'm currently arguing for the use of Down 2 over the other Down B moves when Customs are On, due to the insurance of having a fully filled Bucket off of any 1 successful attempt, given how hard DH can make Bucketing 2/3s of his arsenal. While its damage & knockback is the worst of the 3, having a consistently reoccuring arsenal-piercing option on deck to help get us in on DH would be a boon for us. Both shot-up Clays and exploding Cans only fill up 1/3 of the Bucket each time, which is another reason why I'd pick Down 2.

My next pick if Down 2's not worth taking is Down 3 for the Oil Spill range it has (1/2 of FD!), since many DHs will want to stay that far away from us (while I myself play an aggressive rushdown DH, as does Brood, I believe defensive zoning is the more common playstyle you'll see from DHs). It does KO DH at 50+% near the edges, and it still pierces through the entirety of his arsenal, but its KO power is still lower than default Bucket's (KO-ing DH at 0% near the edges like in the above vid canNOT happen with Overload), and the absorption range is the shortest of the 3 Buckets.

Chef is a wonderful move to use here, for it can disrupt DH's entire arsenal (breaks non-shot-up Clays, temporarily disables & pushes away Cans, and KOs default Gunmen with 2-3 pieces of Bacon), provide us with cover fire for our approaches, and if used at any part of a stage that doesn't have a platform nearby, you can limit DH's approach options, provided he doesn't make proper use of his arsenal to sneak in Smash-inputted Clays under the Bacon Rain (Gunmen will likely show up 1st, then the Can, and then Clay, for Gunmen will be the Guardian that can allow the Can to inch forward a bit, both of which will provide starting cover for the Smash-inputted Clay, provided that DH steps back from the Can a bit, so as to avoid having the Clay collide with the Can).

I'm also arguing for the use of Neutral 3, Short-Order Chef, for this MU over default Chef, due to its farther & faster horizontal range giving G&W a more distant poking tool to use against DH's arsenal, though you do lose an anti-air option for running this. One of its problems is that if S-O's 3 pieces of bacon fail to collide with Clay, said Clay will survive and possibly punish you for missing all 3 bacon pieces. Its biggest problem, however, is DH's Down 3, Mega Gunmen, which can block off all 3 Chefs, and S-O in particular is generally too weak to defeat him, even if DH were to just idly standby and watch you fling flapjacks at him. While we DO have some quick ways to KO Megas (2 Up Tilts, 2 UAirs, 2 NAirs, etc.), getting close enough to Mega will be a challenge, given that Clays, Cans, and even DH himself will likely be coming at us while we're trying to KO Mega. At least we can duck under Mega's shots if we aren't swamped by the previous sentence's forces by the time Mega fires at us.

I've not even considered using XXL Chef in this MU, despite personally adoring the lingering cover fire that even just 1 of XXL's bacon can provide, which, as an Anji Mito main in Guilty Gear who LOVED throwing out the Butterfly at a knocked down opponent who will block it and make it fly upwards for unblockable blockstring setups (especially if Tension was used for the EX version, which DOES hit high, requiring you to block it high), gives me quite a nostalgic rush as I go in with the XXL Bacon covering my next attack/approach option. With how dense DH's minefield can be, XXL's low bacon output would be very detrimental to us. It KOs Mega quicker than S-O, but its long start-up between each piece of bacon leaves us vulnerable to getting easily outproduced.

 

[Folie]

This was funny to read. whatever then.

thanks for the counter-discussion, really interesting and informative rebuttal!
if you would like, we can do some matches online to show you what I'm talking about, most people haven't really experienced G&W played at an optimal level, idk where we are at skill level relative to eachother but I'm sure I can show you some of the ideas I'm referring to. Let me know and we can try to find a time where latency won't be an issue since I share internet with people I live with.