KillerJawz
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- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 4,285
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Don't flame regions just because they don't do things that you want or agree to them.
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We're arguing two different things here.On Electricity, edgetrapping is MUCH weaker. You know what's gay about edgetrapping? I'd say shield and Metaknight's F-smash. Sure whoever is controlling the center has an advantage, but they're not really going to be that much of a threat if you're on the edge or on the far off side platform. It's only one transformation to wait out. There are at least three transformations on PS1 that are better to wait out than to attempt fighting on.
Techable surfaces are HUGELY game changing. It's the reason why we ban Skyworld and Hyrule. And did I mention the windmill blocks approaches extremely well?
And can you specify who exactly is useless on Ice and Wind? I don't think you know what you're talking about. The advantages on Ice are universal to everyone, and rather benefit characters who lack approach options given that the most popular approach in the game is the sliding shield. Wind doesn't give any of the top tiers stupid abuses except possibly Pikachu, if he counts. G&W and Sonic are more ridiculous on wind, but nobody cares about them. Similarly nobody cares about Sheik, Falcon, and Ganon, characters who clearly benefit more from wind than the top tier cast.
PS2's advantages are very non-abusive for most of the cast, especially the top tiers. A lot of abusive strategies that in fact work with most of the top tiers fail on this specific stage during certain transformations. And half the time the stage is normal like any other so called neutral. It's no different from PS1, except the abuses on PS1 that prevent approaches, lead to lockdowns, and result in degenerate gameplay are significantly worse for matchup balance.
QFT. Samus's game is horrible, here. She fires missiles at a declined rate due to being unable to ground cancel the lag, seekers are easily evaded, and Zair is harder to hit with. Our aerials can't auto cancel when there's no ground to cancel on within reach.As Samus I REALLY hate the wind transition. It messes up every kind of spacing option I have. Zair becomes less effective, Missiles become better but the trade off really isn't worth it. We die MUCH earlier off the top here due to our floatyness to the point where it's an absolute joke.
If Samus is able to get to the center, then i believe we have a bit of an advantage. We can spam missiles and seekers to force him onstage, then we can just Zair him when he gets back on. If he gets in close, we can use Up+B, keep chase him to the ground, and continue. It's hard to get back onstage with Samus here. If you try to ledgejump a Fair, you only get in a few hits, and then it cancels by the heightened rolling platform. If don't think you can ledgejump Zair here, but any of Samus's offensive options from the ledge can get punished by a grab, or an Usmash OoS, by Mario. He'd have to be quick on the throw, probably Fthrow. If he holds onto you until you both drop offstage, you or the opponent are put into a position to get footstooled or spiked. If he was waiting in front of the ledge, he'd have to be jumping, to avoid losing ground.The electrical part is something which I personally have never tried to master. I don't understand how I'm supposed to play this section. I can't approach from the ledge If I get knocked away so I think this could be something to consider in this MU. That's just me personally however, I highly doubt this applies to every Samus.
You know PS1 is a CP stage right?PS1 likewise should be a counterpick. But any person who puts PS2 and not PS1 on the stage banlist needs to have their understanding of competitive play checked, when it's been proven not too long ago that PS2 is clearly a more fair stage.
In some places yes, but most times with 5 neutral stages it's a CP.In some rulesets, it's a neutral. I think SiiS4 has it as a starter as well.
Apparently whoever made the AiB wifi ruleset has it neutral too.
You're throwing around the word "neutral" in vain, when in fact most of the advantages on PS2 are very non-abusive for most of the cast. The examples I highlighted are very character specific at best, and similar arguments could be made on many other stages of odd advantages that people receive, even on BF, FD, SV, and YI. Likewise, has it ever occurred to you that the lack of "unusual" features is actually odd on BF, FD, SV, or YI? You're only assuming that BF, FD, SV, and YI are in fact neutral stages because of what we as players have been socialized to understand.We're arguing two different things here.
I'm not arguing which stage offers enough advantages to lesser characters to "balance" the roster. I'm arguing which of the stages offers the LEAST potential advantages to either character...which is more neutral to each character. Characters that are able to abuse mechanics of neutrals best are already overall better characters.
This is true in the metagame that we established, one that favors static terrain and eliminates items. The word advantage is something you don't seem to understand, when in fact the system created is one that cannot be called objectively normal, and when it CLEARLY gives big advantages and disadvantages to several characters. Sonic and Ganon for example would jump a few tiers with items on. At any rate, you can't say that the fact that we use BF, FD, SV, and YI as neutrals isn't a huge advantage/disadvantage for several characters.The matchup imbalance you're referring to exists because higher tier characters destroy lower tier characters the majority of the time; regardless of the stage advantages that low tiers may gain every now and then.
Neutrality? Please. We should just always play stages that give the advantage to keepaway characters as our neutrals.On ice, you said that it assists in helping characters approach who would otherwise have issues with it in some matches on neutral stages. The OTHER CHARACTER is now at a disadvantage. Yeah, they can slide and approach nicely, but if the matchup is built around that one character keeping the other out, then the neutrality here is broken. I don't think any Seth would like it if Gief can now slide up next to him safely at random times in the match...
Getting back onstage is simple if your opponent is either camping under the center, or tries to be a moron and goes out to edgetrap you, which will more often than not end up with them switching places with you. There's a platform nearby at any rate.Also, how d'you figure edge trapping is weaker when it's harder to get from the ledge, back onto the stage? Moreover, being on the ledge is rarely the preferred position...waiting there an entire transformation, as opposed to waiting beside a tree/rock wall ONSTAGE, where your opponent is also waiting for the transformation to end on the opposite side? You waste time on the clock and Wario's a tad bit closer to his fart...otherwise, there's no danger. Not unless someone recklessly approaches.
Way to fail.Subbing in for Calebyte:
"This thread is about the Mario vs. MK match up. Please keep the thread on topic or I will perma-ban both of your a$$es"
Lol. I just noticed this was the Mario vs. Samus thread. Couldn't ninja edit in time.Way to fail.
Either way PS2 isn't that big of a deal for the Mario vs Samus matchup. At most, it will be annoying if people jump stupidly on air, or if Samus camps the center of electric. Besides that, nothing really outrageous.
I told you that geno is too good. He knows the mario mu too well.I got beat by GenoSamus at SiiS. CP'd him CS and that was a good decision, but he still beat me because he's good.
Actually that's a popular misconception. Samus's uair is used mainly for frame traps, allowing her to auto cancel it into a kill option. If Mario pops up slightly from the uair, or is caught slightly airborne, there is no possible way for him to escape the kill move. The best thing I found as a kill option for Samus is literally how you described it. Wait for the opportunity. It's a PAIN to kill in this match up, and I mean a PAIN. We can't even freaking Up angled Fsmash you safely because there's a chance it will miss....Samus has similar shenanigans with her U-air and F-air if I recall, but those moves are better against opponents above her usually.
This made the whole thread worth reading.We totally make Samus bend over us Marios so we can get it in. <3
I take it as I think most of them are going to ban the usual stages they don't like. (Brinstar or Cruise) If Smashville wasn't a stage you already won on, I would recommend going there. I personally think that stage is amazing for fire ball camp. The platform does amazing mix ups with your game. PS1 is a reliable place for Mario to go. Some of the stage formations like fire and rock allow for f-tilt locks and its almost a hiding place for him if your trying to time out someone like fat Samus. (The windmill is your best friend if your on the opposite side of your opponent. Just don't get to close for him to tilt or zair through.@Shyguy: So what stages are best to cp against samus on? *Ponders*
lol I was acknowledging the player instead of the character.Hmm...Gud stuff dude. Samus is a girl btw.
Yeah, I feel Mario shouldn't lose to Samus he is out played by her. That's why I think it's 60:40 in his favor.I see. You make a good point about playing samus on ps1. Don't really lose much on that stage
against samus players. I'll keep that info in mind.
This sounds really good A2Z. Mario's nair can block samus's zairI dunno, Samus actually is pretty competent against Mario onstage. Z-air is very annoying to stop, although ducking can make it hard for her to space it. And her Up-B is an incredible anti-air. She's a very difficult character for Mario to kill because she can Bomb Stall to bait U-smash juggle attempts that would normally work on other characters. Jab canceling her is really good except hard to apply since she is generally going to be in the air. Her F-tilt is also REALLY GOOD for poking and a move you have to respect.
She can't really kill Mario either fortunately. Also overlooked is that Mario actually is decent at edgeguarding her. Grab the edge, then try to N-air her or something once she gets close. This is especially good at stopping her from tethering to the edge.