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Matchup Discussion: Samus

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Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Don't flame regions just because they don't do things that you want or agree to them.
 

Matador

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Yeah dude, chill.

How d'you figure ps2 is more neutral than ps1? It's transformations are far more game-changing.

Inb4fallingintoobvioustrap....
 

A2ZOMG

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Define game changing. Seriously, tell me how PS1's transformations are any less game changing than PS2's.

PS1 is riddled with all sorts of ridiculous abuses related to the terrain, a lot of which promote camping either to start a wall infinite or avoid said infinites, or just for the fact that people really just can't approach from many angles. I should also not have to tell you how characters do not universally adapt to terrain equally.

You can call PS2's mechanics unique, but what's so game changing about them? Brawl is a game riddled with lots of unconventional gimmicks in everything, and the "lack" of gimmicks on our neutrals is merely the subjective conclusions of players (and by the way, it's not really a lack of gimmicks. There's all sorts of unconventional shenanigans related to static terrain). The transformations for the most part don't specifically lead to any abuses, except for the ONE wall on the Earth transformation (on the right side). Air transformation is only ridiculous when G&W or Sonic are playing on it, and it's actually GOOD for Ganon and Falcon as well. The treadmills universally make ground approaches harder, but at the same time they weaken edge trap strategies. Ice is universally good for everyone, just certain characters like Ganon particularly appreciate getting better sliding approaches. The platforms on neutral transformation are also very fair, and non-polarized in terms of advantages they offer to other characters.

What PS2 offers makes it MUCH more balanced in terms of matchups as well. It's one of few stages that actually benefits someone like Ganon far more than it benefits Metaknight.
 

Matador

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Well, for starters, PS1 is damn-near neutral.

Both the rock and fire transformations give a heavy disadvantage to whatever character decides to approach first...granted the other player must be positioned properly and camping it the right way. That's why usually both parties opt to wait for it to end before engaging. Yeah, if they manage to get inside, there's a wall so infinites and wall-shenanigans are possible...but its also ridiculously easy to wall off a recovering character on PS2's electricity transformation if the other character is simply onstage. Any character lacking a MK-like recovery is in trouble here.

Then there's PS1's water transformation, which is pretty neutral as well as long as both players can tech...PS2's Ice and Wind transformations offer benefits for some characters while others are rendered useless during them. Why is this preferred over both characters camping till it's over?

I define "game-changing" exactly the way that you think I define it...Removing neutrality and literally changing the dynamics of the match. Look at your post...everything you said is describing a CP, which is much closer to becoming illegal than a neutral.

Edit: I didn't mention grass and rock transformations on PS1 and PS2 respectively, because grass is pretty neutral to me and you've already mentioned the wall on the rock transformation, which assumes that you know that characters will be camping there just as they would the transformations with walls on PS1...except less effectively.
 

A2ZOMG

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On Electricity, edgetrapping is MUCH weaker. You know what's gay about edgetrapping? I'd say shield and Metaknight's F-smash. Sure whoever is controlling the center has an advantage, but they're not really going to be that much of a threat if you're on the edge or on the far off side platform. It's only one transformation to wait out. There are at least three transformations on PS1 that are better to wait out than to attempt fighting on.

Techable surfaces are HUGELY game changing. It's the reason why we ban Skyworld and Hyrule. And did I mention the windmill blocks approaches extremely well?

And can you specify who exactly is useless on Ice and Wind? I don't think you know what you're talking about. The advantages on Ice are universal to everyone, and rather benefit characters who lack approach options given that the most popular approach in the game is the sliding shield. Wind doesn't give any of the top tiers stupid abuses except possibly Pikachu, if he counts. G&W and Sonic are more ridiculous on wind, but nobody cares about them. Similarly nobody cares about Sheik, Falcon, and Ganon, characters who clearly benefit more from wind than the top tier cast.

PS2's advantages are very non-abusive for most of the cast, especially the top tiers. A lot of abusive strategies that in fact work with most of the top tiers fail on this specific stage during certain transformations. And half the time the stage is normal like any other so called neutral. It's no different from PS1, except the abuses on PS1 that prevent approaches, lead to lockdowns, and result in degenerate gameplay are significantly worse for matchup balance.
 

~ Gheb ~

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PS2 changes the most basic mechanics of game play - jumping, walking, dashing, stopping. It's why I think it's perfectly fine as a CP stage [because it doesn't actually threatens or harms the characters] but not as a starter.

:059:
 

A2ZOMG

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PS1 likewise should be a counterpick. But any person who puts PS2 and not PS1 on the stage banlist needs to have their understanding of competitive play checked, when it's been proven not too long ago that PS2 is clearly a more fair stage.
 

Matador

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On Electricity, edgetrapping is MUCH weaker. You know what's gay about edgetrapping? I'd say shield and Metaknight's F-smash. Sure whoever is controlling the center has an advantage, but they're not really going to be that much of a threat if you're on the edge or on the far off side platform. It's only one transformation to wait out. There are at least three transformations on PS1 that are better to wait out than to attempt fighting on.

Techable surfaces are HUGELY game changing. It's the reason why we ban Skyworld and Hyrule. And did I mention the windmill blocks approaches extremely well?

And can you specify who exactly is useless on Ice and Wind? I don't think you know what you're talking about. The advantages on Ice are universal to everyone, and rather benefit characters who lack approach options given that the most popular approach in the game is the sliding shield. Wind doesn't give any of the top tiers stupid abuses except possibly Pikachu, if he counts. G&W and Sonic are more ridiculous on wind, but nobody cares about them. Similarly nobody cares about Sheik, Falcon, and Ganon, characters who clearly benefit more from wind than the top tier cast.

PS2's advantages are very non-abusive for most of the cast, especially the top tiers. A lot of abusive strategies that in fact work with most of the top tiers fail on this specific stage during certain transformations. And half the time the stage is normal like any other so called neutral. It's no different from PS1, except the abuses on PS1 that prevent approaches, lead to lockdowns, and result in degenerate gameplay are significantly worse for matchup balance.
We're arguing two different things here.

I'm not arguing which stage offers enough advantages to lesser characters to "balance" the roster. I'm arguing which of the stages offers the LEAST potential advantages to either character...which is more neutral to each character. Characters that are able to abuse mechanics of neutrals best are already overall better characters.

The matchup imbalance you're referring to exists because higher tier characters destroy lower tier characters the majority of the time; regardless of the stage advantages that low tiers may gain every now and then.

Regarding the ice and wind transformations, Killerjawz, for one, just said that wind is bad for Samus. Easy example there.

On ice, you said that it assists in helping characters approach who would otherwise have issues with it in some matches on neutral stages. The OTHER CHARACTER is now at a disadvantage. Yeah, they can slide and approach nicely, but if the matchup is built around that one character keeping the other out, then the neutrality here is broken. I don't think any Seth would like it if Gief can now slide up next to him safely at random times in the match...

Also, how d'you figure edge trapping is weaker when it's harder to get from the ledge, back onto the stage? Moreover, being on the ledge is rarely the preferred position...waiting there an entire transformation, as opposed to waiting beside a tree/rock wall ONSTAGE, where your opponent is also waiting for the transformation to end on the opposite side? You waste time on the clock and Wario's a tad bit closer to his fart...otherwise, there's no danger. Not unless someone recklessly approaches.
 

Zatchiel

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As Samus I REALLY hate the wind transition. It messes up every kind of spacing option I have. Zair becomes less effective, Missiles become better but the trade off really isn't worth it. We die MUCH earlier off the top here due to our floatyness to the point where it's an absolute joke.
QFT. Samus's game is horrible, here. She fires missiles at a declined rate due to being unable to ground cancel the lag, seekers are easily evaded, and Zair is harder to hit with. Our aerials can't auto cancel when there's no ground to cancel on within reach.
There are a few ups, though. Zair done twice can punish Mario if he airdodges the first one, and we can stall with bombs which makes up for our near ruined ledge stalling.

The electrical part is something which I personally have never tried to master. I don't understand how I'm supposed to play this section. I can't approach from the ledge If I get knocked away so I think this could be something to consider in this MU. That's just me personally however, I highly doubt this applies to every Samus.
If Samus is able to get to the center, then i believe we have a bit of an advantage. We can spam missiles and seekers to force him onstage, then we can just Zair him when he gets back on. If he gets in close, we can use Up+B, keep chase him to the ground, and continue. It's hard to get back onstage with Samus here. If you try to ledgejump a Fair, you only get in a few hits, and then it cancels by the heightened rolling platform. If don't think you can ledgejump Zair here, but any of Samus's offensive options from the ledge can get punished by a grab, or an Usmash OoS, by Mario. He'd have to be quick on the throw, probably Fthrow. If he holds onto you until you both drop offstage, you or the opponent are put into a position to get footstooled or spiked. If he was waiting in front of the ledge, he'd have to be jumping, to avoid losing ground.
 

Matador

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In some rulesets, it's a neutral. I think SiiS4 has it as a starter as well.

Apparently whoever made the AiB wifi ruleset has it neutral too.
 

Calebyte

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I got beat by GenoSamus at SiiS. CP'd him CS and that was a good decision, but he still beat me because he's good.
 

A2ZOMG

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We're arguing two different things here.

I'm not arguing which stage offers enough advantages to lesser characters to "balance" the roster. I'm arguing which of the stages offers the LEAST potential advantages to either character...which is more neutral to each character. Characters that are able to abuse mechanics of neutrals best are already overall better characters.
You're throwing around the word "neutral" in vain, when in fact most of the advantages on PS2 are very non-abusive for most of the cast. The examples I highlighted are very character specific at best, and similar arguments could be made on many other stages of odd advantages that people receive, even on BF, FD, SV, and YI. Likewise, has it ever occurred to you that the lack of "unusual" features is actually odd on BF, FD, SV, or YI? You're only assuming that BF, FD, SV, and YI are in fact neutral stages because of what we as players have been socialized to understand.

The best definition of neutral is in fact which stage offers the least overall advantages/disadvantages. If we go by that, FD for example definitely should not be neutral. The advantages and disadvantages on that stage are extremely severe. No other stage has anywhere near as linear terrain as FD. PS1 does offer some character specific advantages, but they're ones that generally don't come into play in tournament, and in the bigger picture, PS1 is very non-abusable by most of the cast.

The matchup imbalance you're referring to exists because higher tier characters destroy lower tier characters the majority of the time; regardless of the stage advantages that low tiers may gain every now and then.
This is true in the metagame that we established, one that favors static terrain and eliminates items. The word advantage is something you don't seem to understand, when in fact the system created is one that cannot be called objectively normal, and when it CLEARLY gives big advantages and disadvantages to several characters. Sonic and Ganon for example would jump a few tiers with items on. At any rate, you can't say that the fact that we use BF, FD, SV, and YI as neutrals isn't a huge advantage/disadvantage for several characters.

On ice, you said that it assists in helping characters approach who would otherwise have issues with it in some matches on neutral stages. The OTHER CHARACTER is now at a disadvantage. Yeah, they can slide and approach nicely, but if the matchup is built around that one character keeping the other out, then the neutrality here is broken. I don't think any Seth would like it if Gief can now slide up next to him safely at random times in the match...
Neutrality? Please. We should just always play stages that give the advantage to keepaway characters as our neutrals.

Or let me correct myself. The idea that we play stages that CLEARLY benefit characters who prefer static terrain is baffling. Static terrain by itself isn't neutral. It clearly is an advantage and disadvantage for many characters.

Also, how d'you figure edge trapping is weaker when it's harder to get from the ledge, back onto the stage? Moreover, being on the ledge is rarely the preferred position...waiting there an entire transformation, as opposed to waiting beside a tree/rock wall ONSTAGE, where your opponent is also waiting for the transformation to end on the opposite side? You waste time on the clock and Wario's a tad bit closer to his fart...otherwise, there's no danger. Not unless someone recklessly approaches.
Getting back onstage is simple if your opponent is either camping under the center, or tries to be a moron and goes out to edgetrap you, which will more often than not end up with them switching places with you. There's a platform nearby at any rate.

Stage fairness AND neutrality are synonymous concepts, and PS2 is extremely fair, much more fair than PS1. Neutrality and static terrain however are NOT.
 

A2ZOMG

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Subbing in for Calebyte:

"This thread is about the Mario vs. MK match up. Please keep the thread on topic or I will perma-ban both of your a$$es"
Way to fail. :laugh:

Either way PS2 isn't that big of a deal for the Mario vs Samus matchup. At most, it will be annoying if people jump stupidly on air, or if Samus camps the center of electric. Besides that, nothing really outrageous.
 

Inferno3044

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Way to fail. :laugh:

Either way PS2 isn't that big of a deal for the Mario vs Samus matchup. At most, it will be annoying if people jump stupidly on air, or if Samus camps the center of electric. Besides that, nothing really outrageous.
Lol. I just noticed this was the Mario vs. Samus thread. Couldn't ninja edit in time.
 

Matador

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A2Z, we can take this to PMs or another thread if you think it's necessary...I still completely disagree with your views on the ruleset.

What's left to talk about in this match-up?
 

Calebyte

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Take it to the stage discussion, but not right now since FD is currently being discussed.

Let's keep this thread to the Samus MU.
 
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As hilarious as I found that comment, please don't post stuff like that xD!!!

So far we've discussed general tactics and stages that are viable for either character.. hmm... How about kill set ups?
 

Zatchiel

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If Mario SDIs up or we catch I'm from the air, our FF-Uair can lead to Up-Aimed Fsmash. Dair is situational, CS can be caped, and other than that, we can land a tipper Zair near either Blast Zone. This is all I know besides gimping, and Dsmash isn't killing until around 170% on good DI.

To be honest, I don't really know too much about Mario's KO setups on Samus, but defenestration on some place like CS is easy to follow up, especially if the Samus doesn't tech.
 

A2ZOMG

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Kill setups in Mario vs Samus? Blasphemy!

Actually there are kill setups on both sides. None of them are extremely practical to rely on. Most kills will happen at the moment, or when someone slips up. Or they will happen from high percent edgeguards.

Mario can Jab cancel into D-smash or reverse U-smash against Samus. It usually isn't wise to try forcing this though since Samus is usually in the air. Samus has similar shenanigans with her U-air and F-air if I recall, but those moves are better against opponents above her usually.
 
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Samus has similar shenanigans with her U-air and F-air if I recall, but those moves are better against opponents above her usually.
Actually that's a popular misconception. Samus's uair is used mainly for frame traps, allowing her to auto cancel it into a kill option. If Mario pops up slightly from the uair, or is caught slightly airborne, there is no possible way for him to escape the kill move. The best thing I found as a kill option for Samus is literally how you described it. Wait for the opportunity. It's a PAIN to kill in this match up, and I mean a PAIN. We can't even freaking Up angled Fsmash you safely because there's a chance it will miss....
 

SSGuy

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I'll try to revive this thread:

Samus has almost no kill moves to exploit with. I find that she can z-air gimp if done correctly. I find this to be pretty much another one of those matchups where you shouldn't get knocked off stage. Samus has a good amount of options to mix up on you when your trying to recover. She can dair, zair gimp or back air to tethering the ledge.

On stage wise it is totally in Mario's favor. Mario can deflect every one of Samus' slow and powerful projectiles plus Mario can play a really good fireball game against her since she has pretty big hurt boxes and pretty slow running speed in general.

In the air, Mario's u-air, d-air and b-air are out speed Samus' aerials. The only one you should be worried about is her u-air which is pretty quick.

I would take her to anywhere that makes it hard for Samus to move around. I feel Brinstar and Frigate is a really good stages for him. Avoid going to Yoshi's since I believe the platform plays against Mario in many situations. Overall, I believe the match up is 60-40 in Mario's favor. Samus isn't too hard to beat.
 

SSGuy

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@Shyguy: So what stages are best to cp against samus on? *Ponders*
I take it as I think most of them are going to ban the usual stages they don't like. (Brinstar or Cruise) If Smashville wasn't a stage you already won on, I would recommend going there. I personally think that stage is amazing for fire ball camp. The platform does amazing mix ups with your game. PS1 is a reliable place for Mario to go. Some of the stage formations like fire and rock allow for f-tilt locks and its almost a hiding place for him if your trying to time out someone like fat Samus. (The windmill is your best friend if your on the opposite side of your opponent. Just don't get to close for him to tilt or zair through.

It sounds pretty basic but those I would recommend cping Samus too.
 

Coolwhip

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I see. You make a good point about playing samus on ps1. Don't really lose much on that stage
against samus players. I'll keep that info in mind.
 

SSGuy

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I see. You make a good point about playing samus on ps1. Don't really lose much on that stage
against samus players. I'll keep that info in mind.
Yeah, I feel Mario shouldn't lose to Samus he is out played by her. That's why I think it's 60:40 in his favor.
 

A2ZOMG

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I dunno, Samus actually is pretty competent against Mario onstage. Z-air is very annoying to stop, although ducking can make it hard for her to space it. And her Up-B is an incredible anti-air. She's a very difficult character for Mario to kill because she can Bomb Stall to bait U-smash juggle attempts that would normally work on other characters. Jab canceling her is really good except hard to apply since she is generally going to be in the air. Her F-tilt is also REALLY GOOD for poking and a move you have to respect.

She can't really kill Mario either fortunately. Also overlooked is that Mario actually is decent at edgeguarding her. Grab the edge, then try to N-air her or something once she gets close. This is especially good at stopping her from tethering to the edge.
 

Coolwhip

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I dunno, Samus actually is pretty competent against Mario onstage. Z-air is very annoying to stop, although ducking can make it hard for her to space it. And her Up-B is an incredible anti-air. She's a very difficult character for Mario to kill because she can Bomb Stall to bait U-smash juggle attempts that would normally work on other characters. Jab canceling her is really good except hard to apply since she is generally going to be in the air. Her F-tilt is also REALLY GOOD for poking and a move you have to respect.

She can't really kill Mario either fortunately. Also overlooked is that Mario actually is decent at edgeguarding her. Grab the edge, then try to N-air her or something once she gets close. This is especially good at stopping her from tethering to the edge.
This sounds really good A2Z. Mario's nair can block samus's zair
& other characters that can zair as well, keeping them from grab'in the ledge.
Good tip. I'll use that move more often for now on.

I'm just so use to nairing's falco's side-b with mario.
 
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