Matchup Discussion: Pikachu

[Calebyte]

Pikachu​

Topics to Discuss

• How do we win?
• What do we watch out for?
• Stages to BAN/CP?
• Tips/Tricks when fighting this character?
• Videos?
• MU classification?

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Cape THUNDER for LULZ.

 

[Matt07]

Use a Masterball.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

I lol'd

10lolz

 

[A2ZOMG]

Timid Lightningrod Zapdos in B/W can come in on anything Pikachu does bar Hidden Power Ice and outspeed it for a 2HKO with Thunderbolt (or if it really matters, a 1HKO with Hidden Power Ground). With full Spatk EVs, if Stealth Rock and Life Orb is factored or if Timid Lightningrod Zapdos switches in on Thunderbolt, it has a guaranteed 1HKO with Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Ice.

Anyhow, don't approach Pikachu much if at all. He has pretty good anti-airs against you, and he ducks under your rising B-airs pretty easily. Try to outdo him on the ground with tilts, Jabs, and fireballs. Don't try to get too fancy on his 20/22 spotdodge. Just autoJab if he spotdodges and try to Jab cancel into a grab.

Trading with his aerials is generally favorable since most of his aerials do pretty low damage per hit and none of them are kill moves.

If you shield his D-smash, F-smash out of shield.

FLUDD is good against his SideB recovery. N-airing is your best bet against his Up-B, although a well-placed Cape gimp can be quite rewarding.

If you're knocked upwards, don't mash a button on reflex. Try to airdodge/Cape his Thunder on reaction. Similarly be wise about saving Cape Stalling when recovering offstage when he tries to edgeguard you with Thunder.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Or just Trick his LightBall away and laugh at him as he has just became useless as ****.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Cape kinda plays a big role when it comes to Pikachu, big time.

 

[Inferno3044]

Its a patient mu. You don't need to approach. Also most things that make pikachu good (cg, tjolts, etc.) don't work on Mario. Although I would rather be aggressive in most mu's this is one where it would be much better to camp. I actually think its even at worst for Mario. Tbh I have never played a pikachu main offline so maybe some pikachu players can enlighten me

 

[Matador]

Its a patient mu. You don't need to approach. Also most things that make pikachu good (cg, tjolts, etc.) don't work on Mario. Although I would rather be aggressive in most mu's this is one where it would be much better to camp. I actually think its even at worst for Mario. Tbh I have never played a pikachu main offline so maybe some pikachu players can enlighten me

Yeah, this basically. Pika ***** aggro Mario if they wait for you. Just play patient and stay as grounded (lol) as you can.

And make him afraid of you offstage.

 

[Inferno3044]

Pikachu is extremely hard to edgeguard. QA is an amazing recovery.

 

[Matador]

Fludd's pretty good vs QA, IIRC.

 

[steep]

If you run into a pikachu that loves to QA all the time, fireballs and jabs work great at stopping their momentum mid-QA. I agree with inferno and matador on this one. It's a mu where if you can play patiently you shouldn't have too much trouble.

 

[SKidd]

There's a sole Pika where I live - C4pti4n L, who is also a Pika broomer and on our PR, who almost lost a set to me last tourney in pools. I won first match, then second he went to his precious ps2 where I almost won, then cp'd the wrong stage and got kinda *****.

Here's what I think of the matchup:
Almost even, very slight advantage for Mario. One of Pika's worse matchups(Surprisingly). Mario has to play very carefully and use his fireballs wisely, Pika is so fast with QA and such; and with such a combo ability Mario can take quite a bit of percent with a simple mistake, like in the Oli mu. Don't let him force you to back up/stop too much with jolts, in fact take advantage of the lag he takes when using it. Mario can slightly outcamp Pika. Cape is alright in this mu, Pika can get around it easily and **** you but it's really good if it connects. FLUDD is the same. Spacing is important, and don't let Pika get any momentum. At low percents don't momentum cancel his usmashes and such, because he'll thunder you. Forcing him into shield is pretty great.
Also dair is pretty legit in this.

Stages? Pika is alright in most places, but I like to go to Lylat, because it's so big and the platforms let me get around much safer and mindgame a little more. And Brinstar too I guess.

Ban Halberd or Frigate Orpheon.

I once caped a Pika's thunder and then caped him at like 100%... he went flying.

 

[Inferno3044]

I wish I could hear from the pikachu boards

 

[KayLo!]

Almost even, very slight advantage for Mario. One of Pika's worse matchups(Surprisingly).

wut

Anyways, from my limited experience vs. Mario, it seems even. Maybe slightly in one or the other's favor but not enough for it to really matter.

Cape on Pika's recovery is only gonna work on people silly enough to QA into you.... because we can usually go around you. I mean, it's something to watch out for, but I've never had a problem with it. *shrug*

 

[SKidd]

I heard it's pretty hated by Pika's who have to face it often.

 

[Inferno3044]

wut

Anyways, from my limited experience vs. Mario, it seems even. Maybe slightly in one or the other's favor but not enough for it to really matter.

Cape on Pika's recovery is only gonna work on people silly enough to QA into you.... because we can usually go around you. I mean, it's something to watch out for, but I've never had a problem with it. *shrug*

What does Pikachu have on Mario? He doesn't get CG'd. Cape nullifies camping with tjolt and we can still shoot fireballs. Pikachu is also very rare and I only know of three (ESAM, Pikapika, and Anther but he retired) so I really don't know a lot about him.

 

[Leaf.]

Fireballs are easier to shield than tjolts imo. They are slower and half the time we can run under them.

The edgeguarding pika is gonna do well because mario's recovery is at a diagonal angle that almost matches the angle of a tjolt. Sure, you have the cape, but that's one use and usually seen coming.

When mario is edgeguarding can do a lot, but I don't see a caped QA happening. Most are going to be too smart to get near you to let it happen, and QA moves so fast the timing could be difficult.

On the ground Pika might try to stay away, but in most cases it will be well spaced dtilts because I dont' think mario has a move that outranges that.

Gonna try avoiding the air because mario has good range on air attacks.
Mario's Bair can be shielded and dash-naired if it's not well spaced, if not pika will likely shield, run away, jolt.

Caping thunder won't work against pika as long as they are smart enough to jump first or get under a platform, and on future attempts the cape could be read and reacted to. Try to FF as soon as you can to give you enough time to react for the thunder, as it moves down.

Water attacks can be a problem unless the pika recovers low enough, SB won't be used unless it's completely needed to MC with.

Probably not going to try many jolts, the cape handles them too well. Expect some form of approach, personally, I might just do it from the ground but it would depend on the terrain we are surrounded by.

Charging a smash attack the wrong way and baiting a cape from it is 100x funnier than Mario hitting QA/SB with the cape.

Not having a chain grab doesn't mean fthrow->usmash or dthrow->nair (or Fleedle Deedle) won't work.

Even imo imo.

I'd have to think of stages, I don't really know there right now.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Matador you should have come to Omni's yesterday if you wanted some pikachu experience.

I honestly think may have this matchup. I find myself getting caped more often from mario and he can do it multiple times to make sure pika dies.

FLUDD really doesn't do anything on pikachu imo. This is unless you can get a cape and THEN a FLUDD for the ensured kill, but other than that it's a pretty lulzy momentum alteration. Mario's dair gets in pretty well, uair combo's, nair combo break's, and spaced bair's are good with mario.

Pikachu and mario are kind of similar in the fact that they both hop into the air before they shoot their projectiles and usually follow up with something like dsmash. Pikachu doesn't have a cape so this tactic is effective against pikachu while mario can cape our tjolts. Fireballs are a real ***** to deal with.

Still, pikachu doesn't NEED a deadly cg to win matches and mario's don't cape EVERY single tjolt we throw at them so we can still tjolt whenever (it's not like mario can follow up after using cape unless they're already close) Pikachu has great aerials as well and we also have some options oos like nair and there is also the early thunder kills on a mario that doesn't properly DI our utilt, usmash, or dsmash. So mario's advantage, but not by much.

55:45 plumber

 

[Matador]

Fludding QA DOES work right? I'm not just imagining this?

Yeah, Fireballs are much easier to deal with than TJolts as far as camping goes.

Edit @ Luckay: I couldn't. I had somewhat of a family emergency. Besides, I've played you and Kenny before offline.

 

[Leaf.]

I'd like to do some testing on FLUDD vs QA if it's not really known.
I don't really know what it does.

 

[Matador]

If it hits you during QA, it alters your trajectory.

This is bad because, if you're going for the ledge, you won't land on the ledge. Instead, you'll end above the ledge in a freefall state, where you're susceptible to cape or aerial/smash punishment.

It doesn't work all that well if you recover below the stage, where Fludd can't reach you.

 

[Leaf.]

Well, then it can be a bit of a problem if pika's too far away to get the under-the-stage angle. It's not likely we can't get there, but it's possible.

 

[Matador]

I figure that kinda pressure would make your recovery a tad more manageable.

Example: I manage to fthrow you or something at high percent. Good DI allows you to live, but you're far from the stage. You see that my Fludd's charged, so you go low to QA from there. I predict this reaction, grab the ledge, forcing you to land onstage, where I can punish your landing.

Simplified example, but a reasonable scenario, no? This is how I try to use Fludd whenever I think to...unfortunately for us, recovering low practically negates Fludd's usefulness, lol.

 

[Omari]

Note: Don't get grabbed by Mario when you're at 0% as he's capable of Front Throw (f-throw)>Shutter Step Front Smash (SSFS) angled straight (26% free damage). For characters that are less likely to be caped (unless read), Neutral Air (n-air) them (which can allow Mario another setup for either further punishment or a kill).

 

[Captain L]

I guess it's one of pika's worse matchups if you take it relative to the fact that pika shouldn't be going even with low tiers, but I think it's even. I just don't like it...

crouching under a rising bair is something I've never tried, but it seems like it could be really helpful.

 

[Tagxy]

Fludding QA looks funny, lol.

Pikachu has a small but noticable advantage in this MU.

Without much experience mario can do some pretty heavy damage in this MU. But in the end mario suffers from similar issues to luigi; he gets outspaced and can't camp well enough to get around pikas mobility. I do not recommend trying to play overly campy and never approaching. While it might be better then approaching too much, it doesnt completely wall out pika and one good read can lead to a fair amount of damage. Mixing it up and not being too predictable is really important for mario in this MU, and I feel like his camping alone isnt capable of doing that. That being said dont be reckless with approaches.

Try to edgeguard pika, but dont let it ruin your day if you dont get much. Hes pretty much capable of getting to the ledge against any character without taking damage when a recovery plan is carefully thought out, but that shouldnt mean you dont challange it and watch out for cape/flood/punishment opportunities if the pika becomes careless or predictable.

Last be careful about caping thunder. I believe out of hitstun airdodge is the quickest move, but you should time it right. If you can cape go for it, but dont die over it, lol.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

This MU is in Pikachu's favor 55:45

In general we have better spacing, speed, combos, edgeguarding, recovery, kill potential, and basically everything but weight (But I think Pikachu has better survivability in general due to superior momentum cancel)

Your camp isn't that effective due to Pikachu's size and speed, but obviously our camp isn't effective. Your cape isn't that effective against us because we can mix up our recovery.

 

[Omari]

This MU is in Pikachu's favor 55:45

In general we have better spacing, speed, combos, edgeguarding, recovery, kill potential, and basically everything but weight (But I think Pikachu has better survivability in general due to superior momentum cancel)

Your camp isn't that effective due to Pikachu's size and speed, but obviously our camp isn't effective. Your cape isn't that effective against us because we can mix up our recovery.

Thanks for your input but I'd like to hear how to play this MU (from both parties (&).

1. I agree with everything you said (generally speaking) but it's still very vague as to what each party's supposed to do (I'd like a better understanding).

2. Pikachu is in fact better at surviving than Mario but I'm working on Mario's survivability during my spare time. Mainly to increase his overall status.

3. Granted, Mario can camp better than Pikachu but I highly doubt Mario (at high level play) will attempt to camp (especially when he knows the Pikachu can maneuver around fire balls fluidly).

4. IMO, it would be in Mario's advantage (not the MU overall, no) to wall (spaced b-airs) Pikachu creatively.

All Mario & Pikachu mains: Talking about how cape is or isn't effective won't help us understand what to do (how to punish the move) any better than we already know. Hypothetically, let's say we can't cape your recovery (assuming this is tournament play? IMO, n-air would be the next save option to cover Pikachu's recovery. I'm really interested in hearing more about this MU (any MU for that matter) & thanks for your time.

 

[Inferno3044]

Fireballs are easier to shield than tjolts imo. They are slower and half the time we can run under them.

They both alone are pretty ineffective. Cape helps us camp though.

The edgeguarding pika is gonna do well because mario's recovery is at a diagonal angle that almost matches the angle of a tjolt. Sure, you have the cape, but that's one use and usually seen coming.

Mario has a mediocre recovery t best but it's not that easy to gimp him. He will/should save his jump until it's completely needed and we can FLUDD you away to stop edgeguarding attempts.

On the ground Pika might try to stay away, but in most cases it will be well spaced dtilts because I dont' think mario has a move that outranges that.

He has Fsmash. It's only one move, but it's something.

Charging a smash attack the wrong way and baiting a cape from it is 100x funnier than Mario hitting QA/SB with the cape.

Chill. If I see you charging a smash the wrong way, I'm gonna charge a smash to punish (you actually take increased knockback while charging an attack)

Not having a chain grab doesn't mean fthrow->usmash or dthrow->nair (or Fleedle Deedle) won't work.

That is good to know.

Pikachu and mario are kind of similar in the fact that they both hop into the air before they shoot their projectiles and usually follow up with something like dsmash. Pikachu doesn't have a cape so this tactic is effective against pikachu while mario can cape our tjolts. Fireballs are a real ***** to deal with.

Pikachu's dsmash is not hard at all to deal with. Really easy to DI.

Still, pikachu doesn't NEED a deadly cg to win matches and mario's don't cape EVERY single tjolt we throw at them so we can still tjolt whenever (it's not like mario can follow up after using cape unless they're already close) Pikachu has great aerials as well and we also have some options oos like nair and there is also the early thunder kills on a mario that doesn't properly DI our utilt, usmash, or dsmash. So mario's advantage, but not by much.

55:45 plumber

Assuming you're at long range, we can cape every tjolt, but I know what you mean. We can cape thunder as well/

Without much experience mario can do some pretty heavy damage in this MU. But in the end mario suffers from similar issues to luigi; he gets outspaced and can't camp well enough to get around pikas mobility. I do not recommend trying to play overly campy and never approaching. While it might be better then approaching too much, it doesnt completely wall out pika and one good read can lead to a fair amount of damage. Mixing it up and not being too predictable is really important for mario in this MU, and I feel like his camping alone isnt capable of doing that. That being said dont be reckless with approaches.

Mario and Luigi are different characters and have differences. Mario's mobility is decent while Luigi's is crap and has better camping ability. Also, how does Pikachu outrange Mario? I thought they have about the same range give or take on some moves.

This MU is in Pikachu's favor 55:45

In general we have better spacing, speed, combos, edgeguarding, recovery, kill potential, and basically everything but weight (But I think Pikachu has better survivability in general due to superior momentum cancel)

Your camp isn't that effective due to Pikachu's size and speed, but obviously our camp isn't effective. Your cape isn't that effective against us because we can mix up our recovery.

What does Pikachu have to space? I can see dtilt being used, but I can't think of any aerial attack being a spacing move. Also what about combos? I thought Mario and Pikachu have about the same combo ability. I agree about Pikachu having better seed recovery and kill potential (kill power I think is even).

Can we play at Pound 5? I wanna get some friendlies in. I also have wanted to pick up Pikachu and I want some help with that.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

D-tilt, f-tilt, jab, uair and fair all space.

For Pikachu, we are going to try to get a lead quickly with grab combos or just little hits. THen, once Pikachu has the lead, we are content to sit back at mid-long range, avoiding fireballs, forcing Mario to approach. Once Mario is at high %s, we can start slowly pressuring him with tilts and multi hit aerials, stabbing his shield until a fair will shield poke and then that leads to nair or u-smash.

Mario will probably try to play at mid-range with bair and f-tilt, and sometimes try for the shiedldpoke with dair since it is weird and has very little cooldown (Although if you stay on our shield and the attack ends we can easily nair OOS). Fireballs help you approach because it still makes me move around, but if you do it too carelessly, much as if Pikachu jolts to carelessly, we can run under and hit you for it since Pikachu is really fast. When Pikachu is at high %s you whould probably be throwing a lot of fireballs and slowly approaching, and jab mix-ups are pretty good (Jab grab, jab d-smash, jab charge f-smash predicting a sidestep).

Also, cape is effective on the ground for sure since Pikachu relies on close combat. HOwever, you won't exactly be capitalizing unless you cape something like F-smash, because Pikachu;s moves aside from that are really fast with cooldown. Of stage cape is really mediocre since Pikachu is so small and versatile in the air. Of course it can, but if you miss and pikachu grabs the ledge, now Mario is the one getting edgeguarded, which is always fun for pikachu. If you try to nair edgeguard, you are going to be in a lot of lag and it won't really help. Most likely you won't be able to time the sweetspot, and the sourspot won't do much for you, as we will probably be able to grab the ledge first and again, reverse the positions. I would honestly, as Mario, shoot fireballs to make Pikachu go where you want, and then just edge pressure him with tilts and fireballs. Don't get too aggressive since Pikachu is a really good role reversal.

 

[Omari]

Excellent read, good **** ESAM. How would you suggest (recommend) Mario edge-guarding (offstage) against Pikachu since n-air won't have an effective enough reward? When Pikachu's on the ledge, what (style wise & move wise) would you recommend? IMO, Pikachu would only get the n-air OoS Mario SH d-airs & doesn't retreat (smartest option rather than mid air jumping to footstool (due to Pikachu's height)). Believe it or not, d-air can (& should IMO) be spaced when approaching.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Mario edgeguarding Pikachu (When he is offstage) do like I said: fireballs, maybe run off DJ nair. When Pikachu is on the ledge, use moves like down angle f-tilt, fireball, sh dairs to try and punish my ledge options. A thing a lot of Pikachus do is ledgehop t-jolt, so you can react to that by jump caping, and it will either put the position back to stalemate or you will hit pikachu.

Yes dair spaced will do Pikachu wonders, but if you retreat it actually gives Pikachu incentive to approach with running u-smash or nair. But yeah, mid range is pretty good for Pikachu since Mario isn't exactly fast enough to punish T-jolts (although cape reflects them) but it does help put the pressure on.

I wish me vs Kirin was recorded at MLG Raleigh.

 

[Inferno3044]

D-tilt, f-tilt, jab, uair and fair all space.

For Pikachu, we are going to try to get a lead quickly with grab combos or just little hits. THen, once Pikachu has the lead, we are content to sit back at mid-long range, avoiding fireballs, forcing Mario to approach. Once Mario is at high %s, we can start slowly pressuring him with tilts and multi hit aerials, stabbing his shield until a fair will shield poke and then that leads to nair or u-smash.

Mario will probably try to play at mid-range with bair and f-tilt, and sometimes try for the shiedldpoke with dair since it is weird and has very little cooldown (Although if you stay on our shield and the attack ends we can easily nair OOS). Fireballs help you approach because it still makes me move around, but if you do it too carelessly, much as if Pikachu jolts to carelessly, we can run under and hit you for it since Pikachu is really fast. When Pikachu is at high %s you whould probably be throwing a lot of fireballs and slowly approaching, and jab mix-ups are pretty good (Jab grab, jab d-smash, jab charge f-smash predicting a sidestep).

Also, cape is effective on the ground for sure since Pikachu relies on close combat. HOwever, you won't exactly be capitalizing unless you cape something like F-smash, because Pikachu;s moves aside from that are really fast with cooldown. Of stage cape is really mediocre since Pikachu is so small and versatile in the air. Of course it can, but if you miss and pikachu grabs the ledge, now Mario is the one getting edgeguarded, which is always fun for pikachu. If you try to nair edgeguard, you are going to be in a lot of lag and it won't really help. Most likely you won't be able to time the sweetspot, and the sourspot won't do much for you, as we will probably be able to grab the ledge first and again, reverse the positions. I would honestly, as Mario, shoot fireballs to make Pikachu go where you want, and then just edge pressure him with tilts and fireballs. Don't get too aggressive since Pikachu is a really good role reversal.

Thank you. I still thank Mario spaces better in the air, but I can definitely see Pikachu spacing better on the ground.

Also you didn't answer the most important question. You wanna play at Pound ?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I have punished mario Bair with running u-smash OOS.

Find me and I'll play :D

 

[Omari]

I wish me vs Kirin was recorded at MLG Raleigh.

I was there (my second tournament after Apex) rooting for you & KirinBlaze. I do wish I had actually watched that MU rather than increase the hype (my newcomer mistake)...Well, I'll be at Pound V (hopefully) so we can play. Thanks for your input (greatly appreciated). I wish all MU discussions (any discussion for that manner) can be like this one (each party coming to an agreement rather argument) guys.

 

[Inferno3044]

I have punished mario Bair with running u-smash OOS.

Find me and I'll play :D

Sounds good. You will be the Pikachu that makes it to bracket right?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You mean I'll be the Pikachu who gets top 2?

If that is what you meant, than yes :D

 

[Inferno3044]

You mean I'll be the Pikachu who gets top 2?

If that is what you meant, than yes :D

M2K and ADHD are allowed to play at this tourney

 

[Leaf.]

*cough*gnes*cough*

Everyone get off ESAM's **** and talk about the matchup.
I hate posting in MU threads.