Matchup Discussion: Fox

[Calebyte]

Mario vs. Fox

Time to continue matchup discussion. Foxes have been popping up left and right in the tournament scene recently, since nobody plays Pikachu or Sheik anymore. Hopefully we'll get some better discussion this time, more than just "LOL MARIO GETS RAEPD11". Mario vs Fox, discuss away.

Matchup Index

 

[Fire!]

I've sounded the Fox horn.

Spoiler

Ugh, that was horrible...

 

[Kuares]

Omigosh! Calebyte! Hi!

It'd help if you guys had more of a clue on what to do against Fox. Going into a discussion without much isn't helpful. If you can bring up ideas, that'd be a good place to start.

I've sounded the Fox horn.

Spoiler

Ugh, that was horrible...

I'm going to quote this

 

[Calebyte]

Alright, I'll start us off.

Fox is popping up everywhere all of a sudden, probably because everyone realized that two of his **** matchups--Sheik and Pikachu--are rarely seen in tournament. That coupled with TKD's recent performance on the west coast has skyrocketed Fox's popularity. It's easy to see why: he's quick, he can safely force approaches, he has a reflector, and he has a number of viable kill options.

Now to our advantage, Fox also has one of the quickest fall speeds in the game. This makes him easy fodder for utilt locks. Also, he's light, meaning we can KO him earlier. Of course, it won't be easy to land either of those. Fox will typically dance around the stage, trying to force the approach with his lasers. He'll then either try to punish, or he'll side-b across the stage and start lasering again.

Fox is also fond of his dair to utilt. At low percents, his utilt can rack a fair amount of damage. This can be pretty easy to read, however. Block and punish. I could go on, but I'd like to avoid making a bigger wall of text. Any specifics on how Mario should play this matchup?

EDIT: FYI, reading last year's Fox MU discussion might help. Look here. Also, hi Quares!

 

[Zephil]

I've sounded the Fox horn.

Spoiler

Ugh, that was horrible...

first... MISA CAMPO!!!!

okay now to the MU:

Fox vs Mario is an interesting match. Mario has better aerials but Fox has a better ground game which is weird xD

Your cape can't do much to stop our camping game and we reflect your fireballs so we win in that area so you will be forced to approach.

Mario survives more in this match than Fox. The tip part of mario's fsmash can kill Fox at 100% and we kill with our Usmash at like 115% I think.

I suppose you are tired of here this but we gimp really hard mario with our shine but you too can do it really well if and only IF the Fox is predictable on his recovery which shouldn't be as Fox has a lot ways to recover.

Mario's utilt can't lock more than 2 if the fox has good SDI

Mario needs to control the match by spacing with bair and mixing their approaches to force a shine or a wrong move from Fox.

I think Mario's usmash>fox's dair, not sure but if its true then is bad for fox but still you need to be cautious of it as its an important aspect of fox's gameplay but is not the only think we do when we fastfall as we can also airdodge, nair, and even bair.

I don't play much this MU but I know is fun and is fairly even

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Fox's upsmash ***** you at like 100%, and it's KB growth is stupidly high, so bringing him to somewhere with high ceilings is actually BAD for you and GOOD for him. Luckily, its pretty to read it. Fox racks damage up stupidly fast, so always keep an eye on your damage or you'll feel like you were up'b by Luigi or something. If his dair is stale, you can up'b out of it, and be sure to smash DI his up-tilt chains.

Be careful of his rising roflcoptor kicks from the ledge, and remember that our NAIR knocks him right out of his side B, forcing him to use his UP'B to recover. You can also use FLUDD to push his side b upwards, giving you a free fsmash.

This is one of the few match-ups I actually have decent knowledge in.
I'd say 55:45, Fox's advantage, just because he ***** us harder than we **** him if we get into each other's range.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Oh my god I love that picture!

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's a pretty close matchup. Fox will be most difficult if he waits a lot and never forces KOs but just goes for grabs and safe juggles. Otherwise he's pretty simple to deal with since he doesn't really have real approach options or safe KO moves.

You can F-throw -> reverse F-smash Fox at 0% for a free 27% on him right off the bat.

If you're going to U-tilt chain Fox, make sure he's either at like 9% before you try it, or you D-throw him first and then U-tilt. Otherwise it isn't cool getting your consecutive utilts punished on block.

Keep B-throw fresh in this matchup for a potential KO at around 160%. You're generally going to be abusing shield a lot in this matchup to keep his approaches in check (also, please know how to angle shield properly and how to U-smash out of shield).

N-air for edgeguarding him as mentioned is good since it usually knocks him out of SideB.

Xero's advice on using Up-B is legit. Ever found it difficult to deal with Fox's shinestalling in vertical spacing wars? Keep in mind that your Up-B is an option for countering him in that situation due to its speed and range. Turnaround Up-B out of shield is also an option against crossovers, which Fox will want to implement when he approaches.

Generally on both sides, this is a matchup about waiting. Whoever makes a reckless move first is at a disadvantage, and KOs usually are hard to score in this matchup. Main differences between characters are that Fox has some better punishes for KOs and he runs away better. You have some better pokes and grab reward.

 

[Inferno3044]

First thing I wanna say is that Mario will probably have to approach Fox. His lasers fire way faster and will rack up more damage over time. Other things about Fox is that he has a really good punish game. Being able to punish with a move that reliably kills around 100% is amazing for Fox to have. Unfortunately for him, his fast fall mechanics aren't as amazing are they are in melee and can work against him to get bodied at low percents.

Mario wins in edgeguarding because Mario can beat illusion with nair or mess it up with FLUDD. He can also use nair to clip his second jump if Fox is put in that position. Fire fox is also easy to gimp with cape. Fox has a couple of tools I'm aware of such as clipping your mid air jump with shine. Just something to watch out for.

Stage wise, I would CP him to Lylat. I just know he's not that good there and Mario is. If a Fox player can help me out with this, that'd be awesome.

Unfortunately I don't know more, which is upsetting. I knew Rookie when he played Fox and Nakitty is a very good Fox main who I am friends with but haven't played against.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Brinstar is better against Fox. Lower ceiling is mostly to your benefit, and the terrain is more favorable for Mario and even gives you more options to stall against lasers.

 

[steep]

I don't know a lot about this MU, but I do know that Fox mains seem to love abusing the lagless dair -> virtually anything (when grounded). Something I have seen Mario's use to counter this is to do a quick dash out of the way of Fox's dair -> pivot grab. Seems to be a good mind game too and after Fox gets dthrown to utilt juggled a few times he will probably be a little more wary about using dair.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Yeah, that would only work if the Fox has to approach, which he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. Be careful of his dair when you're in the air, it pushes you downwards towards the ground, but doesn't put you into a tumble, so if you're being dair'd while you're short hopping or something, it will be almost exactly as if you got dair'd on the ground.

If I can recall, I think fox's fsmash stops his momentum kind of like Mario's reverse fsmash. I think he has a free fmash on Mario if he shields Mario's fsmash, but I'm pretty sure you can block the usmash

 

[lilchrome850]

Ok. Does marios jab stop illusion?

 

[UberMario]

Stagewise, I'd take him to either Final Destination, Brinstar, or Rainbow Cruise. In the air, he's not that threatening, it's only really if he lands an FSmash or an USmash that a KO is truly likely. Sure, he has other options, but these are the only two that really threaten Mario as finishers. While Mario does have more kill options in this matchup, Fox has way more to rack up damage with, not to mention he's quick enough to make fireballs an ineffective tactic against him in comparison with B-Air WOP'ing. I'd say this matchup is even, and I think it's the most exciting matchup for Mario, because both players gain little-to-nothing from being overly defensive in this matchup, so, at least from when I've played them, the more aggressive player usually wins.

 

[Inferno3044]

Ok. Does marios jab stop illusion?

I don't think so. Nair beats illusion though.

Stagewise, I'd take him to either Final Destination, Brinstar, or Rainbow Cruise.

I wouldn't take him to FD. Gives him too much space to work with. Brinstar and Rainbow are good CP though. Lylat as well.

In the air, he's not that threatening, it's only really if he lands an FSmash or an USmash that a KO is truly likely. Sure, he has other options, but these are the only two that really threaten Mario as finishers. While Mario does have more kill options in this matchup, Fox has way more to rack up damage with, not to mention he's quick enough to make fireballs an ineffective tactic against him in comparison with B-Air WOP'ing.

Fox's air game is still good and definitely has better kill options than Mario. How does Mario have more kill options than Fox? Mario can do some good damage racking due to his extremely quick fast fall.

I'd say this matchup is even, and I think it's the most exciting matchup for Mario, because both players gain little-to-nothing from being overly defensive in this matchup, so, at least from when I've played them, the more aggressive player usually wins.

Fox can gain quite a bit from laser camping. This forces Mario to approach and Fox can rack up damage with lasers quite easily. He actually gains quite a bit. I'd say this is slightly Fox's advantage.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Stagewise, I'd take him to either Final Destination, Brinstar, or Rainbow Cruise. In the air, he's not that threatening, it's only really if he lands an FSmash or an USmash that a KO is truly likely. Sure, he has other options, but these are the only two that really threaten Mario as finishers. While Mario does have more kill options in this matchup, Fox has way more to rack up damage with, not to mention he's quick enough to make fireballs an ineffective tactic against him in comparison with B-Air WOP'ing. I'd say this matchup is even, and I think it's the most exciting matchup for Mario, because both players gain little-to-nothing from being overly defensive in this matchup, so, at least from when I've played them, the more aggressive player usually wins.

As Inferno said I wouldn't take him to FD since it gives him too much space to move to laser camp etc.

In the air he's still pretty threatening due to the fact that if you get hit with a uair or bair (depending on the % and if its stale etc.) might kill you. Also fsmash is one move you really shouldn't be getting killed with since it isn't really a reliable move to finish with.

 

[Kanzaki]

The better camper wins. I played against TKD in a low tier using my Mario cause I wasn't confident in my Fox yet. First round I took him down to 1 stock by camping... He just out camped me. Second round I tried going aggressive and got destroyed :[


And in low tier doubles ended up against me vs DSF one round with him using Fox. Like I said, better camper wins, and in this case, was me :]

 

[fromundaman]

I have a little experience in this MU. I've found that while lasers do force us to approach, aggressive camping works best (AKA camp at a range where you can always follow up your fireballs, but far enough that you can counter any punish attempt. Basically mid-range camping.). Jab beats all ground approaches except maybe Fsmash (Yeah, I know that's usually not an approach. Just sayin'. ) if I remember right, and fireball help limit aerial approaches.

FLUDD is also useful against his SideB and any time he jumps.

Keep either your Dsmash or Usmash fresh to kill (Unless you think you can land Fsmash on Fox consistently. I sure as hell can't.), and use the other for racking damage. I would suggest racking damage with Usmash since it beats Dair and is amazing OoS.

Yeah, everything else I can think of has been said.

 

[JUDGE]

ohhh i know this MU quite good since i main fox and second mario^^

in fact most of the stuffs you guys said are right ,i'll only correct the mistakes:

its right that marios has a better airgame than fox but it doesn't mean that he can take much advantage off it
due to fox fastfall speed we can easily get back down to the stage and gaining momentum back
baiting airdodges doesn't really work on fox because we can shine stall,whiff the attack and punish with dair=> follow up
even MKs have a hard time jufggling fox
mario definetly can't outcamp fox so you have to approach
fox kills mario at around 90-100 %
upsmash is not predictable since we don't rush in with it but using it as an Oos option,after dair/nair or after a baited airdodge (for example with an empty jump if you guys trying to land, however you can still b reverse a fireball to get out of that situation)
fox won't gimp a mario and a mario won't gimp a fox but i think mario can put fox in a worse postion with fludd/nair
cape won't hit

overall fox is slightly better, i suggest 55:45 maximum 60:40 fox

 

[Kanzaki]

I agree with everything Judge said, except for the end. Mario CAN gimp Fox.. easily. It's up to the Fox to not put himself in that position.

 

[Inferno3044]

I agree with everything Judge said, except for the end. Mario CAN gimp Fox.. easily. It's up to the Fox to not put himself in that position.

This. Mario is definitely capable of gimping fox. It doesn't mean it will always happen. I'm on the fence of either 45:55 or 4:6. I played Rookie once a while ago and got wrecked. I'm much better now and I might get in some training with Nakitty over the break. Getting that Fox exp.

 

[Calebyte]

I don't think it's 4:6, from everything that's been discussed, I would say 45:55. Slight Fox advantage since he can typically force the approach more effectively and outmaneuver us a bit, but it's still close to even.

 

[Inferno3044]

I don't think it's 4:6, from everything that's been discussed, I would say 45:55. Slight Fox advantage since he can typically force the approach more effectively and outmaneuver us a bit, but it's still close to even.

I'm basically considering the practice/theory difference. There is always some difference in an actual game than on paper and it can fluctuate a MU. Perfectly fine with you using 45:55 as the ratio.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

45:55 in fox's favor.

Be careful, on some stages his up-smash can hit you from under the platforms.
We should probably make a list of stages where he can and can't hit us. I know he can hit us from under Lylat's platform and PS1

 

[Inferno3044]

Fox is gay

 

[JuxtaposeX]

UPPPP SMAAAAAAAAAAAASH!!!!

/allcaps

 

[KillerJawz]

Guys please discuss the Match-Up properly. Saying one liners like those are helping nobody, not even yourselves.

 

[Calebyte]

I actually really enjoy this matchup, I find it to be a lot of fun and mostly even. I like baiting Fox's obvious dair approaches, and following with a dthrow or something. I try to get Fox off stage whenever I can. One of my favorite things to do is to force Fox to recover low with his up-b and then run off stage and bair spike.

 

[Conviction]

I actually really enjoy this matchup, I find it to be a lot of fun and mostly even. I like baiting Fox's obvious dair approaches, and following with a dthrow or something. I try to get Fox off stage whenever I can. One of my favorite things to do is to force Fox to recover low with his up-b and then run off stage and bair spike.

dair approaches

dair approaches

dair approaches

dair approaches

What foxes do you play that still approach with Dair? ('08)

_________________________________________________________________________
On a more serious note: What does Mario even have send Fox down to force him recover low? Fair Jumps should be stopping Fox from recovering that low anyways.

That's all the rest of what I saw in here was aight.

 

[Calebyte]

You'd be surprised dude, every Fox seems to want to dair whenever he's above me. It may be a bad idea, but it doesn't change the fact that it happens a lot.

Ordinarily Mario can't force Fox to recover low, you're right. However, Fox can be conditioned into recovering low. Mario's FLUDD screws up his side-B recovery, nair beats it. If Fox is caught offstage without his second jump, or out of range of fair jumps, Fox will often opt for recovering low to escape FLUDD/Nair edge guarding.

 

[KillerJawz]

I have to side with Iblis on this one. The Foxes you are playing are obviously not up to par with the match up or just Fox in general if they're approaching you like that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm gonna do friendlies vs crifer at this match-up next time I'll meet him at a tourney. Last time it didn't go well for him but I heard he improved

 

[condemned_soul]

for fox, would smashville be a smart place to play him?

 

[Juushichi]

Fox is bad.

YYEEEEEAAAAHHHHHH!

 

[Calebyte]

Guys, no more spam comments in this thread, or I'm infracting all your *****.

 

[Inferno3044]

Guys, no more spam comments in this thread, or I'm infracting all your *****.

Too late. I already got infracted. And mine was relevant. I played a Fox that day

 

[Matador]

Played Iblis the other day.

Did you guys know that utilt could kill Fox at 157?

That's so nasty!

 

[Juushichi]

Man, I don't even remember making that post.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Played Iblis the other day.

Did you guys know that utilt could kill Fox at 157?

That's so nasty!

He don't even play me anymore.

 

[Conviction]

Played Iblis the other day.

Did you guys know that utilt could kill Fox at 157?

That's so nasty!

It's gay

Also after playing you I'm leaning a 55:45 Fox's favor. We should more stages though.

He don't even play me anymore.

I've played you before?