Matchup discussion: Falco

[Coolwhip]

What's up, mario boards. I'm back with a fresh matchup thread.

Falco will be our discussion for this matchup only. So let's begin!

Small note: I will post videos of the matchup of mario vs. falco. (Offline matches only, no wifi)

Tc1 (Mario) vs.Choice (Tourney match)
Boss (Mario) vs. Seagullman (serious friendly)

Tips & Tricks
How to DI against falco

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know how I am supposed to win this match-up at all. Is there anything we can actually do that reliably works?

 

[Matador]

Hard question to answer. The list of reliable things we can do to any of the high tiers is pretty short. Falco in particular kinda wrecks a lot of our options by design alone.

Our jab cancelling sucks here. Fireball approach is severely hindered by lasers, shine, and Falco's spotdodge. Falco's comparable speed but superior range makes zoning at long and mid range horribly difficult. Falco's jab, spotdodge, and CG make CQC difficult as well.

That said, he is still a spacey, so low % combos work great on him. Typical utilt, usmash, dthrow/uthrow, and dair -> uair stuff are effective. Landing onstage with illusion can get tricky for him if Mario's Fludd is charged. Cape isn't reliable as far as shutting down Falco's camping, but it does well to help fight back. Falco's also going to be dying earlier, especially if Mario can land Fsmash at all.

One thing I suggest for all Marios to do is watch GIMR's videos for how to properly DI Falco's CG -> Dair and jab combo.

Overall, I'm thinking -2. That's mainly because I'm lacking high level experience here, though.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

-3.

Mario's worst non-MK matchup. And nobody better question me.

 

[clowsui]

Xeroxen sees the light.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DDD is harder than MK / Falco 0_0
The problem is that we have like 3 options to actually get Falco into a low % combo [uair, utilt, grab] and two of them [utilt / grab] have pretty much the same range and start-up lag so it's easy enough for him to cover these options ...

... with a mere jab of his ;_;

 

[GimR]

I actually played the match up wrong against 2fast so that video might not be the best footage on how to properly play against Falco with Mario. I beat him the next time we played. If you linger around in the air too much the Falco player is going to start N-airing you or just hitting you in general. This match up is definitely difficult for Mario.

 

[Trollby]

Well, I don't have much knowledge about this Match up, but I do know some of Falco's troubles against Mario's.

Mario
-Can kind of gimp us with Fireballs, Cape, FLUDD, Bair, Uair, ETC
-Can **** our recovery back on stage if he read's our phantasms.
-His projectile doesn't match ours but it can hurt us if used correctly.
-Easy to juggle, I don't know many of mario's options, but You know.. Utilt>Utilt>dthrow, uair, I don't really know what's his possibilities.
-Reflect lasers with cape, stall in the air to prevent us from trying to spike you.
-Kill at early percent due to his light weight, Angle the Fsmash or Dsmash near the edge of the stage, and you can easily gimp us and kill us.

I'd say this matchup is 45:55 depending on how the match up is played and whether it's played online/offline. Falco definitely has to play safe, just predict/exploit him and you'll be fine.
-

 

[GimR]

His fieball is actually really bad. I was getting hit by it in the air and then hitting 2 fast(So I was positive on hit)

 

[Blacknight99923]

Don't get grabbed.
Don't airdodge stupidly into the ground.
don't put yourself in a situation where falco can jab spotdodge shield.

Figure out the falcos side b habits to recover and start wailing on him.

Its harder for falco to deal with mario if he doesn't have stage control, so get the center.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lol @ 45:55 for this match-up. It's like 7/3 in Falco's favor -.-

 

[Coolwhip]

What stages can be a safe counter pick for mario to take falco on?

 

[Capeflip]

Any stage that will mess with his laser camping

 

[Z'zgashi]

I find Lylat is a good CP against him.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Mario's main pros include his gimping ability and his cape is able to ruin one of Falco's ways of approaching. Mario can also KO Falco early because of Falco's lightweight and how vunerable he is to being juggled. However, Falco can easily combo him, and Mario has to deal with Falco's chaingrabs. Falco also outranges Mario and can outspace him with lasers, and in order to juggle, you have to be in close. The matchup is kind of hard, but not unwinnable. IMO the matchup is -2 in Falco's favor.

 

[Player-3]

- 3

 

[Matador]

Lol, -3. Y'all are absolutely bananas.

Lylat and Brinstar vs Falco.

 

[Trollby]

I know.. 45-55, But I'm saying on wifi, because really Falco can get screwed over easy. Offline it's an easy 6-4 or 65-35.

 

[Matador]

Nobody's worried about wifi, bro. No need to mention it, lol.

 

[steep]

This is probably the hardest MU for me personally. Fireballs aren't effective here most of the time because as GIMR mentioned Falco can get hit and still hit us back before we can really follow up with anything reliably.

Against DDD fireball camping and combos somewhat work at low %. Against MK fireballs only clash with glide because of his transcendent priority on all his moves and we can do a couple things CQC against him.

Against Falco, fireballs get jabbed, fsmashed through, bair'd through, or reflectored, his jab beats ours in CQC and his lasers turn us around in the air so bair-ing is risky because it may turn into a buffered fair and can get punished hard.

That being said, I agree with cp'ing him to brinstar and lylat. If you feel comfortable on frigate, it could work well too because the first transformation has no ledge on the right side and the second part allows you to duck under his lasers in the middle section.

As for his CG, you can up b out of it if they try to grab too many times, but be careful because smart falcos will shield the up b instead of regrabbing. I personally use nair to try to break CGs. Sure they may get one more grab, but it's a safer option in terms of getting punished. I wouldn't recommend trying to jump out of the CG because if he catches you at the start of your jump you lose your second jump.

Mix up whether you tech his dair or not, because if you tech it he can dair you again and if you don't he can laser lock you. Just be careful and be smart. I wouldn't recommend teching in place because he can just sh dair you on reaction. At least if you tech and roll he has to get a read to continue dairing you.

I'm pretty sure this is true, but just to be sure: can angled stages like Yoshi's mess with how many times Falco can CG us? If so, Yoshi's could be useful. The angled platform could help with lasers and the angled floor with CG.

One thing you can sometimes get a falco on the ledge with is if they like to ledge jump -> phantasm catch them with a fireball from mid range and cape the side b that gets buffered from the fireball cancelling it. I caught both Shugo and Clowsui with that in our MMs. Ha Ha

Hope this helps.

Falco's I've played: Shugo, Sorasin, Clowsui

EDIT: A couple more points that I just thought of - I think ftilt could be somewhat effective in this MU for Mario. Thoughts?

Also, if falco consistently sh double lasers at around the same height you can jump between them to gain ground against him. It's tricky but it could be something to look into.

Also, you can duck under lasers. At mid-close range you can duck under lasers and then sliding usmash, but falco probably won't be lasering at that close of range.

Also, I would always camp falco until you are above CG %. Unless he puts himself in a terrible position. Then, by all means capitalize on it. Ha Ha

 

[Coolwhip]

If you guys (Mario mains especially) try to get some fresh matches recorded for this matchup.
Mainly looking for offline tournament or serious friendlies.

-3 Sounds abit too much i have to say. -2 at best imo....even/+1 off stage in mario's favor.

 

[Trollby]

Well, I'm not sure about this match up, considering I haven't played any good Mario's at all, but I would say that Mario could probably have a slight advantage or even 50-50 depending on the stage.

 

[BSP]

It's been a while since I played this MU in tournament, but I used to regularly play vs a local Falco with Mario. Here's what I think...

If you are going to Fireball at all, make sure you full hop it. Otherwise, Falco can just eat right through it with a lot of moves, or just reflect it back at you. Do not waste time short hopping them.

If you get him into the air, chase him down hard, and at the least, camp his landing. Usmash will beat all of his aerials (If you time it right, it should even eat through Bair, but it's tough), and all of our aerials will chain nicely on him if you can connect one to start a chain. Basically, pressure him in the air; you can get nice damage off of it. Getting him offstage is the icing on the cake.

Learn to DI his full jab so you can punish it (uair and up B work nicely). If jab 2 hits your shield, I believe you can grab falco before the third hit connects.

If you get CG'd and spiked at around 35%ish, DI the spike or else you will get placed into a 50/50 situation where if Falco guesses right, you lose your stock. (Mario's only options are 1) Jump and Up-B or 2) Jump, cape, then Up-B. You have to use the middair jump to meteor cancel since UpB won't reach the ledge by itself.) This cost me a tournament set once, so make sure you don't get sent offstage from the Dair.

I think I'd recommend camping at low % too...the risk reward ratio is too far in Falco's favor at low damage IMO. A grab is a lot of damage and gives Falco a lot of momentum.

I have a tournament this saturday, so I'll see if I can run through the MU again to get some fresh ideas. I do know I can say -3 is a stretch. But -2 sounds reasonable since Falco's got the advantage in close quarters, long quarters, and he just gets more reward in general. Mario can do some nasty things once Falco is in the air or offstage, but getting him there without taking too much % yourself is a problem.

Does anyone have an idea of the frame data on Falco's jab 1 on hit for us? Can we Up B or anything? Or do we always get grabbed if he buffers?

 

[Z'zgashi]

If you PowerShield the jab you should get an UpB, otherwise idk, its close.

 

[Coolwhip]

Do we ever power shield cancel walk towards a camping falco? I never seen anyone do it before.

 

[Matador]

It isn't completely safe, even if you powershield perfectly. SH laser to jab is still too fast if he's close enough to land both on your shield.

 

[Juushichi]

This MU is pretty balls.

It's okay when the Falco doesn't know anything (surprising Shugo with cape ****, Clowsui rage-quit in friendlies at Nope's, random bad Falco's) but even a halfway coherent Falco can **** on Mario. He doesn't even have to do anything different than he normally does in an auto-pilot. Lazer/jab/side-B (gotta not be braindead because sometimes cape is a thing) alone makes this MU hell for Mario.

Once you force the issue and teach the Mario that he gets outclassed in, well, everything Falco can go for stupid mix-up things like empty hop dair or empty hop grab or any other kind of wackiness.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

-3.

Mario's worst non-MK matchup. And nobody better question me.

I don't understand why this discussion is still taking place.

 

[Coolwhip]

I don't understand why this discussion is still taking place.

You're not helping, so stop posting.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Umad ?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Double post because I don't care.

The fact of the matter is that I'm actually HELPING the discussion. These discussions go nowhere, we have countless dead matchup threads and making one yourself isn't going to change a thing. We have plenty of writeups on these matchups and honestly very little of what anybody says is actually factual. After I've been on these boards for for over four years and realize that absolutely nothing has changed and people are just as naive and stupid as they were when I was a freshman in highschool, I've essentially given up trying to have a constructive conversation with a majority of the people who have the intelligence of a middle-schooler.

What annoys me most is that you all have one collaborative mindset that hasn't changed in these past four years about this game whatsoever. "Mario is -3 to DDD because that's just the way it is", is essentially what I'm reading from you guys all the time. That may have been true when all the Mario players were bad back in 2010, but after this far into the development of this game most of these players should have their fundamentals down and realize how to play their god-damn character. I shouldn't be able to go inactive for a year, come back and still have a better level of understanding of this character as people who play the game constantly. And yet somehow I do, because people keep posting idiotic threads like this that contribute absolutely nothing new, we're restating things because people don't know how to search through older threads which are still completely relevant.

****ing contribute something new or don't post anything at all. And also everyone needs to stop being awful at this game because there is no excuse that I could still beat most of you with my Jigglypuff after a year and a half of barely playing this game.

Needed to be said.

 

[mars16]

Tru words have never been spoken this clearly.

I honestly think the same thing really.

 

[Coolwhip]

Double post because I don't care.

The fact of the matter is that I'm actually HELPING the discussion. These discussions go nowhere, we have countless dead matchup threads and making one yourself isn't going to change a thing. We have plenty of writeups on these matchups and honestly very little of what anybody says is actually factual. After I've been on these boards for for over four years and realize that absolutely nothing has changed and people are just as naive and stupid as they were when I was a freshman in highschool, I've essentially given up trying to have a constructive conversation with a majority of the people who have the intelligence of a middle-schooler.

What annoys me most is that you all have one collaborative mindset that hasn't changed in these past four years about this game whatsoever. "Mario is -3 to DDD because that's just the way it is", is essentially what I'm reading from you guys all the time. That may have been true when all the Mario players were bad back in 2010, but after this far into the development of this game most of these players should have their fundamentals down and realize how to play their god-damn character. I shouldn't be able to go inactive for a year, come back and still have a better level of understanding of this character as people who play the game constantly. And yet somehow I do, because people keep posting idiotic threads like this that contribute absolutely nothing new, we're restating things because people don't know how to search through older threads which are still completely relevant.

****ing contribute something new or don't post anything at all. And also everyone needs to stop being awful at this game because there is no excuse that I could still beat most of you with my Jigglypuff after a year and a half of barely playing this game.

Needed to be said.

You got nothing else to do but to be an arrogant pr!ck. just stfu already.
no one gives a flying **** on what u have to say or think.

mister so call....
"I'm so good at this game it isn't even funny" <---stupidest opinion by someone that isn't a top player.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Coolwhip > Xero

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Coolwhip has a point

 

[ThatGuy]

Double post because I don't care.

The fact of the matter is that I'm actually HELPING the discussion. These discussions go nowhere, we have countless dead matchup threads and making one yourself isn't going to change a thing. We have plenty of writeups on these matchups and honestly very little of what anybody says is actually factual. After I've been on these boards for for over four years and realize that absolutely nothing has changed and people are just as naive and stupid as they were when I was a freshman in highschool, I've essentially given up trying to have a constructive conversation with a majority of the people who have the intelligence of a middle-schooler.

What annoys me most is that you all have one collaborative mindset that hasn't changed in these past four years about this game whatsoever. "Mario is -3 to DDD because that's just the way it is", is essentially what I'm reading from you guys all the time. That may have been true when all the Mario players were bad back in 2010, but after this far into the development of this game most of these players should have their fundamentals down and realize how to play their god-damn character. I shouldn't be able to go inactive for a year, come back and still have a better level of understanding of this character as people who play the game constantly. And yet somehow I do, because people keep posting idiotic threads like this that contribute absolutely nothing new, we're restating things because people don't know how to search through older threads which are still completely relevant.

****ing contribute something new or don't post anything at all. And also everyone needs to stop being awful at this game because there is no excuse that I could still beat most of you with my Jigglypuff after a year and a half of barely playing this game.

Needed to be said.

 

[Kanzaki]

Xero so mad that he's living in Bo's shadows xD

 

[steep]

Double post because I don't care.

The fact of the matter is that I'm actually HELPING the discussion. These discussions go nowhere, we have countless dead matchup threads and making one yourself isn't going to change a thing. We have plenty of writeups on these matchups and honestly very little of what anybody says is actually factual. After I've been on these boards for for over four years and realize that absolutely nothing has changed and people are just as naive and stupid as they were when I was a freshman in highschool, I've essentially given up trying to have a constructive conversation with a majority of the people who have the intelligence of a middle-schooler.

What annoys me most is that you all have one collaborative mindset that hasn't changed in these past four years about this game whatsoever. "Mario is -3 to DDD because that's just the way it is", is essentially what I'm reading from you guys all the time. That may have been true when all the Mario players were bad back in 2010, but after this far into the development of this game most of these players should have their fundamentals down and realize how to play their god-damn character. I shouldn't be able to go inactive for a year, come back and still have a better level of understanding of this character as people who play the game constantly. And yet somehow I do, because people keep posting idiotic threads like this that contribute absolutely nothing new, we're restating things because people don't know how to search through older threads which are still completely relevant.

****ing contribute something new or don't post anything at all. And also everyone needs to stop being awful at this game because there is no excuse that I could still beat most of you with my Jigglypuff after a year and a half of barely playing this game.

Needed to be said.

I don't see you contributing either. All you do is say how we suck and how MU's aren't that bad but you don't tell us WHY. Therefore YOU aren't helping and are only being, to borrow Coolwhip's choice of words, an "arrogant prick."

 

[Matador]

Lmao, chill out with the flaming.

Xero, redoing these discussions is important for the sake of being sure that nothing has changed since the last one. I personally benefit from talking about it and reading other opinions and experiences on certain match-ups. It may not help you out, but if that's the case, simply ignore these threads.

 

[KMFBrawler]

To continue with the thread:

I really couldn't think of anything else against Falco other than spamming my cape, but I read some of these posts, and imma try some things, thanks.