Matchup Chart Project 2015 - Calling Palutena Mains!

[Zareidriel]

Hello Palutena boards,

I'm Zareidriel. Over in this thread a guy called Assassannerr made a matchup chart, and asked people to help fill it out. It seems like it would be a cool thing to have. With once glance you could have a rough idea of a matchup. It won't be perfect, but for our first go at it in 2015 we're aiming for "somewhat functional."

So here's what I'm going to do. Go to every Character Discussion board, and ask the folks there if they wouldn't mind contributing. To submit one vote, you'll have to fill out one of these:

////////////******
Bowser
Bowser Jr
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Greninja
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Little Mac
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Dr. Mario
Marth
Lucina
Metaknight
Ness
Olimar
Palutena
Pikachu
Pit & Dark Pit
Peach
Zelda
R.O.B.
Robin
Rosalina
Samus
Sheik
Shulk
Toon Link
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus
Megaman
Pacman
Sonic
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner
******//////////


Mark each character with a + for a match where Palutena HAS THE ADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a - for a match where Palutena HAS THE DISADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a number 0 for a match you feel is very even.

NOTE THAT I AM ONLY TAKING VOTES FROM MEMBERS WITH Palutena IN THEIR PROFILE BAR. It can be as either "Wii U Main" or "3DS Main". But if Palutena is in neither one of those slots when I count the votes on Friday, Nov 13, it won't be counted.

(Yes, for the avid democrats out there, that means you can vote for one other character as well.)

Like I said, they won't be perfect, and each board will probably be a little biased toward their own respective character. But the results should be interesting regardless.

If this thing is successful maybe we'll do a revised version in 2016.

Thanks very much for participating! We need as many votes as possible for each character so please submit a ballot!

 

[Lunacywastaken]

I don't know many MUs, but here are the ones that I know of.

Marth -
Lucina 0
Ness 0
Palutena 0
Pit & Dark Pit -
Zelda +
Robin -
Sheik -
Toon Link +
Villager -
Lucas 0

 

[PHP]

Pikachu-
Fox-
By far her worst matchups
Villager+
Ness 0
ZSS 0
DK 0
Ganon+
Falco-
Mewtwo+
Lucario 0
Yoshi 0
Diddy-
Rosalina 0
Bowser. Jr+
Dedede+
Roy-
Marth-
Ike 0
Lucina 0
Cap falcon 0
Sheik~
Duck hunt+
Robin 0
Rob+
Little Mac-
Meta knight-
Kirby 0
Jigglypuff 0
Mario 0
Luigi+
Wario-
Zard 0
Link-
Toon link-
Pit/ dark pit-
Ryu 0
Bowser~
Peach 0
G&W-

 

[TheRealPalutena]

Bowser +
Bowser Jr -
Captain Falcon 0
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt
Falco +
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede
Kirby
Link 0
Little Mac
Lucario
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario
Marth -
Lucina -
Metaknight
Ness 0
Olimar -
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach + (Debatable...not completely sure how I feel about this 1)
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin
Rosalina 0
Samus
Sheik -
Shulk
Toon Link
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer -
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman
Sonic -
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt +
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0
Jigglypuff 0
King Dedede +
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac -
Lucario 0
Luigi -
Mario 0
Dr. Mario 0
Marth -
Lucina -
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar 0
Palutena
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach -
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0
Rosalina 0
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager 0
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus 0
Megaman +
Pacman 0
Sonic 0
Ryu 0
Roy -
Mewtwo +
Lucas 0
Brawler +
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Only rating the handful of matchups I feel comfortable enough with to really call


Captain Falcon -
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Lucario -
Luigi -
Mario -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Rosalina -
Sheik -
Villager 0 (Maybe even +, but I'm not quite ready to say that)
Zero Suit Samus -

She probably has more +s and 0s with some of the lower and mid tier characters but these are the only ones that I've either played enough or (In the case of Ganon and DK) understand enough from the other side so make an informed statement on.

 

[SonicNKnux]

Maybe I'll try to explain key reasons for advantages or disadvantages as well...

Bowser 0
Bowser Jr + (Reflect forces approaches. That side B (I think?) is a no no.)
Captain Falcon 0 (Not too bad if you stay out of the combo starters (dthrow and dash attack). Spot dodge down b and block side b if you can. Don't waste time using slow moves.)
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong - (Harder than the Shiek matchup as bananas if thrown in the air tend to either arc over Reflect if too close, or bounce off at an angle that won't hit DDK unless at point-blank. Don't waste time using slow moves.)
Donkey Kong 0
Duck Hunt +
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0 (Don't use Autoreticle. adversely, if you use it and he buckets it, spam autoreticle when you can, as he won't be able to bucket again without getting rid of the full one.)
Ganondorf +
Greninja 0 (Have not fought many, but Greninja would have to rushdown and it's not a rushdown character.)
Ike 0
Jigglypuff 0 (If we aren't careful, JPuff will fly over our tilts for punishes. Aerials are preferred.)
King Dedede +
Kirby 0 (Kirby is very small, our attacks miss a lot and without liberal reflecting or dtilting he can dtilt trip us into combos)
Link - (Space hard to avoid being overwhelmed. Watch the tether grab, it's ugly.)
Little Mac - (Reflect gimp aside, he's able to super armor through our tilts, and is harder to deal with away from the ledge without invincibility abuse)
Lucario 0
Luigi +
Mario 0
Dr. Mario 0
Marth - (I think most of Marth's tilts and fsmash have a longer reach than our ftilt, and if both are spacing...)
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar +
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach 0
Zelda 0 (Each can body the other into oblivion if caught in the other's juggles.)
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0 (Be aware of Arcthunder and uthrow combos through Arcfire.)
Rosalina 0 (Rosalina alone is a pushover. Luma is shield food. You still need to be aware of it though.)
Samus 0 ( Maybe be difficult getting in without baiting due to the tether grab. Don't allow her to continuously charge shots or paranoia may be your downfall.)
Sheik 0 (With proper spacing (fair, reflect, dtilt) Sheik will only be able to safely approach through needles, grabs, and fairs. If far away only 2 of those approaches will work. Don't waste time using slow moves.)
Shulk 0 (Unless he rushes you down with Speed, not a huge problem.)
Toon Link 0 (Compared to Link, you can muscle your way through him one but still need to watch your spacing.)
Villager +
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi 0 (Very hard to deal with if it is a rushdown variant, otherwise not too bad. Eggs tend to arc over Reflect a lot if too close so it may be safer to just block or run from them.)
Zero Suit Samus - (Arguably harder to fight than Sheik due to stun and tethers. Of course you could jump over them, but against someone who knows what they're doing...)
Megaman +
Pacman 0
Sonic - (Sonic can spin right through your ftilts, over your dtilts and into you if you don't time them properly. Better to just not challenge at all.)
Ryu 0 (Meaty attacks. If he uses down b respond with ftilt or utilt.)
Roy - ( Don't let him run you over!)
Mewtwo + (We win Shadow Ball tennis easy.)
Lucas 0 (Avoiding his tether grab, his specials are more punishable than Ness's if you're close enough, provided he misses.)

I don't know enough about the Mii fighters in relation to players to comment on them.
Brawler ?
Swordfighter ?
Gunner ?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I'm confused by the idea that everyone but me seems to think we go even with or even beat DK. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but the way I'm looking at it, DK doesn't give a crap about bair because so many of his pokes are intangible, we can't get in his face and buttons very well to stop him, he WRECKS us in the reward department and lives much longer. Where are we winning this match?

 

[SethTheMage]

Alright. I've been maining her for about a year now and I've taken her to a couple of tournaments, so here's what I think:

Bowser: 0
Bowser Jr: 0
Captain Falcon: -
Charizard: +
Diddy Kong: -
Donkey Kong: +
Duck Hunt: + (though, it's a really frustrating advantage)
Falco: +
Fox: -
Mr. Game & Watch: 0
Ganondorf: +
Greninja: -
Ike: 0
Jigglypuff: +
King Dedede: 0
Kirby: -
Link: 0
Little Mac: -
Lucario: 0
Luigi: -
Mario: -
Dr. Mario: 0
Marth: +
Lucina: +
Metaknight: -
Ness: 0
Olimar: +
Palutena: N/A
Pikachu: -
Pit & Dark Pit: -
Peach: 0
Zelda: +
R.O.B.: 0
Robin: +
Rosalina: -
Samus: +
Sheik: -
Shulk: +
Toon Link: +
Villager: +
Wario: 0
Wii Fit Trainer: 0
Yoshi: 0
Zero Suit Samus: 0
Megaman: 0
Pacman: 0
Sonic: - (IMO this is her worst matchup)
Ryu: +
Roy: 0
Mewtwo: +
Lucas: +
Brawler: 0
Swordfighter: +
Gunner: +

Granted, I don't have extensive experience with the entire cast (especially the Miis), so some matchups I guessed on based on my overall experience of what Palutena can do.

Generally speaking, Palu's worst matchups are with rushdown characters who have very good frame data and mobility on the ground, and characters who are really short. She has only around 3 useful/generally safe options on the ground (grab, Dash Attack, Jab), and certain short characters can even duck under her dash grab (namely Kirby, Jigglypuff, Wii Fit Trainer and Pikachu's landing recovery animation between Palu's jabs). Unfortunately for her, most of the fighters who are considered top/high tier are small/stay low to the ground and are rushdown. Sonic in particular is a nightmare to fight because of his ground mobility and overall speed. He can easily outmaneuver Palutena, and can easily bait a player who gets too impatient with the matchup. Kirby also does pretty well against her because of his small size and good ground game. Additionally, there are a considerable number of characters who can dash under Autoreticle and punish hard, making it practically a non-option in those matchups (Little Mac, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Greninja, and Sheik come to my mind).

Palutena has a much better time controlling the stage when her opponent spends most of their time in the air, because her aerials are really fast and solid, and she can surprise unsuspecting airborne foes with Usmash. This is why I say that she has an advantage against Jigglypuff. All of her aerials are fast, two of them are slight disjoints, and one has invincibility that will win any non-disjointed challenge. Not to mention, she always can throw out Usmash if the Jigglypuff player makes a mistake. Also, based on my experiences, I'd make the argument that she has a slight advantage against Shulk because her Bair can shut down his aerial approaches with its invincibility, and the startup lag on his heavy hitting moves allows her to compete with him on the ground, even when he's in Speed mode. The only exception to the rule of keeping opponents in the air that I can think of are the Pits because their aerials are all fast and have more disjointed range than Palutena's aerials.

Palutena also has an even matchup to an advantage against projectile zoning characters because Reflect forces them to change their entire approach and playstyle, and in some matchups outright shuts them down if the Palutena player is smart (however, characters like R.O.B. and Mega Man have enough tools to deal with this).

I'd say her worst matchups are Sonic, Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Pikachu, and Fox.

Hope this helps contribute to the discussion.

 

[Zareidriel]

Voting closes tomorrow at midnight. Get those ballots in!

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I wish to restate that I am seriously curious as to why people think we have the advantage on DK if anyone's willing to give me the run down.

 

[Thinktron]

I wish to restate that I am seriously curious as to why people think we have the advantage on DK if anyone's willing to give me the run down.

i don't see an advantage on either side, it might be because waifu does so well against other heavies, i think it is even from the dk side of things

 

[SonicNKnux]

I wish to restate that I am seriously curious as to why people think we have the advantage on DK if anyone's willing to give me the run down.

DK's entire being eclipses every tilt we could put out, and the majority of our aerials. At best we should be watching out for dash attack strings, grabs, cargo throw combos from said grabs and ground-level Spinning Kong and Giant Punch super armor (which typically call for us to be breathing in his face in order to be unable to respond fast enough. And if we're that close, no reflect?). It's pretty easy to tell when he's fishing for back airs as well, and any other speedy move he uses that has range like utilt can be dealt with without too much hassle. We really just don't want him juggling us in the air.

 

[M]

I'm very concerned with people claiming Villager is a positive matchup. Aside from being able to reflect a few things (Villager can actually PUNISH reflected rockets) Palutena has very few tools. She struggles to approach, so Villager's trap game and strong oos options just mess Palutena up.

Anywho, my impressions based off of sets with high level players:
Bowser +
Bowser Jr 0 (Not the most experienced with this, there aren't many outstanding Jr mains to explore the mu with)
Captain Falcon 0 (Maybe a bad matchup, but I've found success against top Falcons)
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong 0
Duck Hunt + (Neutralising the can wins this matchup)
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0 (Being generous here, this kinda feels like a disadvantage now after the buffs)
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac - (Mac who knows the mu can react and armor through your entire neutral game)
Lucario 0
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu - (This may be worse than 6:4)
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach -
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario - - (I'm willing to argue this is one of, if not her worst matchup)
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman +
Pacman +
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy +
Mewtwo +
Lucas 0
Brawler -
Swordfighter (zero experience, who plays this character?)
Gunner +

Some characters don't have many good players so I may not be entirely accurate, but I feel like I'm on the ball here. I can give detailed reasoning if anyone asks.

 

[wpwood]

I'm very concerned with people claiming Villager is a positive matchup. Aside from being able to reflect a few things (Villager can actually PUNISH reflected rockets) Palutena has very few tools. She struggles to approach, so Villager's trap game and strong oos options just mess Palutena up.

Anywho, my impressions based off of sets with high level players:
Bowser +
Bowser Jr 0 (Not the most experienced with this, there aren't many outstanding Jr mains to explore the mu with)
Captain Falcon 0 (Maybe a bad matchup, but I've found success against top Falcons)
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong 0
Duck Hunt + (Neutralising the can wins this matchup)
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0 (Being generous here, this kinda feels like a disadvantage now after the buffs)
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac - (Mac who knows the mu can react and armor through your entire neutral game)
Lucario 0
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu - (This may be worse than 6:4)
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach -
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario - - (I'm willing to argue this is one of, if not her worst matchup)
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman +
Pacman +
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy +
Mewtwo +
Lucas 0
Brawler -
Swordfighter (zero experience, who plays this character?)
Gunner +

Some characters don't have many good players so I may not be entirely accurate, but I feel like I'm on the ball here. I can give detailed reasoning if anyone asks.

Yes can you go over how Wario is the worst MU. I'm pretty sure it's Pika for sure. Also Palutena can use the windbox on f-smash to push little mac away from the ledge since his up b doesn't ledge snap. And villager gets shut down by reflect so I don't see how that's a bad match up.

 

[M]

1. Yes Pikachu is definitely an extremely one-sided matchup. Wario is up there as well though. He already has the weight to survive longer, and many good kill options. Wario's air mobility is ridiculous and makes it very easy for him to avoid Palutena's few good kill setups. Couple this with the fact that the longer he is alive the more opportunities he gets to waft a clean stock away, and it just gets really snowbally.

2. Mac can space his up B so that the winbox doesn't connect - reflect does the job better anyway imo. Regardless still a poor matchup because his rushdown and super armored hits shut Palutena down pretty hard. Not unwinnable by any means, but its very hard not to get frustrated when a well timed Mac smash attack can almost win the neutral alone.

3. Villager has more in his arsenal than just 3.5 projectiles?? Trying to reflect side B mid range is actually laggy and Villager has the time to jump the wall and dair. Slingshot is handled easily when holding a lead because of reflect, sure. Approaching against them and other Villager stuff is far from easy. Villager's jab and nair can escape pressure very well. In a generous light (not intended..) this could be even, but in no way does Palutena flat out win this matchup.

 

[wpwood]

1. Yes Pikachu is definitely an extremely one-sided matchup. Wario is up there as well though. He already has the weight to survive longer, and many good kill options. Wario's air mobility is ridiculous and makes it very easy for him to avoid Palutena's few good kill setups. Couple this with the fact that the longer he is alive the more opportunities he gets to waft a clean stock away, and it just gets really snowbally.

2. Mac can space his up B so that the winbox doesn't connect - reflect does the job better anyway imo. Regardless still a poor matchup because his rushdown and super armored hits shut Palutena down pretty hard. Not unwinnable by any means, but its very hard not to get frustrated when a well timed Mac smash attack can almost win the neutral alone.

3. Villager has more in his arsenal than just 3.5 projectiles?? Trying to reflect side B mid range is actually laggy and Villager has the time to jump the wall and dair. Slingshot is handled easily when holding a lead because of reflect, sure. Approaching against them and other Villager stuff is far from easy. Villager's jab and nair can escape pressure very well. In a generous light (not intended..) this could be even, but in no way does Palutena flat out win this matchup.

Wario's ground moves are slow. Dash attack beats everything anyway. Space with bair and she doesn't have to worry about aerials too much. Wario is easy to gimp if you can take the bike away. It's not a really hard MU.

I've literally killed Macs with f throw > nair. Really just throwing Mac offstage and then covering his recovery is one of the easiest things for Palutena to do. Plus Palutena can easily platform camp Mac. Mac would have to jump to get to the platform and he's no air fighter. If the Mac wants to try to camp just don't go in, make the Mac come to you and punish his approach. Fair beats his dash attack and side b when done at the right height. Play footsies with the Mac and always be prepared for his dash in.

Custom or not Villager is gonna camp the ledge. That's what he loves doing and reflect doesn't let him do what he loves. Why would Palutena approach villager when she can force him to come to her. His approach options are limited to dair, dash attack, dash grab. Fair, bair, and side b all get stuffed out by reflect. Forcing villager to approach shows control of the match and Palutena just needs to be ready for a close range villager and she'll win that match up. It's probably one of her easiest MUs actually.

 

[Zareidriel]

I secondary Villager and I don't camp the ledge, that's a silly For Glory tactic that doesn't actually work, you'll never see it from an actual Villager player. Villager is much better when played aggressively.

Zareidriel Palutena votes tallied

 

[wpwood]

I secondary Villager and I don't camp the ledge, that's a silly For Glory tactic that doesn't actually work, you'll never see it from an actual Villager player. Villager is much better when played aggressively.

Zareidriel Palutena votes tallied

Well you're gonna wanna use Fair, Bair, and Rocket and reflect will shut that down. A good Palutena player will space their reflect at an nonpunishable distance since Villager could just jump over it. Reflect shuts Villager down in the spacing game and I don't think he'll win the close up game as long as the Palutena is good at spacing with bair. Villager is not a bad MU for Palutena.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I secondary Villager and I don't camp the ledge, that's a silly For Glory tactic that doesn't actually work, you'll never see it from an actual Villager player. Villager is much better when played aggressively.

Zareidriel Palutena votes tallied

You may not, but plenty of well performing Villagers do. He's got good CQC but awful mobility, and thrives on forcing people to approach him.

Reflect isn't an auto-win or anything, but it does change the matchup since Villager has to run at you with those stubby little legs of his.

 

[PHP]

Do we have an official match-up chart yet?

 

[Zareidriel]

Yes 8) http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-community-matchup-chart-2015-results-and-discussion.427980/

 

[PHP]

Maybe it needs to be updated? Buffs and nerfs would have surely changed some matchups

 

[Zareidriel]

No doubt. But it took so impossibly long to make I'll be waiting a while before starting the next one.

 

[MzNetta]

We honestly shouldnt even be bothering with something as simple and not-helpful as this matchup chart. Look at the Zelda forums, theyve got specific strategies and information for a lot of matchups and its still being developed. This is exactly what we need to be working on as a community.

 

[Zareidriel]

Ouch. Well I'd be more than happy to discuss our differences of opinion in the chart results thread, but I don't want to spam the Palutena forums with non-Palutena content. Could someone close the thread please? =)

 

[sjb.dario]

I'm not sure if this thread is still ongoing and relevant, but I would like to shed some light on a MU no one will particularly care about: Doctor Mario.

Doctor Mario is slow, but he's known to pack a punch and deal lots of damage to his opponents.
His pills allow him to cover for his bad coverage on stage. It can also be used when he is recovering high from the side of the stage to cover his landing options.
He has Mario's frame-data, so his jabs, tilts, and smashes are all quick. His jab2 links well with up-b at high %, and this can kill near ledge. His d-tilt and u-tilt are good combo tilts, and he will use them to rack up % and potentially lead up to a grab. He can throw out smashes (particularly u-smashes) and can usually get away with it. His f-smash will kill as early as 80% near ledge if you're not careful. The back-side of doc's d-smash hits stronger than the front-side.
His down-throw can lead up to aerials such as u-air, b-air, and f-air. U-air is his go-to follow up. Doc will try to go for u-air strings as he descends. His b-air followup would be used at mid%. There isn't much you can do to avoid this, since it's mostly used to damage you. Followup f-air is his finishing move, but it cannot confirm into a true combo against Palutena. If landed, however, it can kill early, so beware.
His short hop is incredibly good. Be wary of short-hop bairs, as this will be one of his main poking tools. They damage a lot (14% if sweetspotted, if I'm not mistaken), so do not run into this. His b-air also kills pretty well near ledge.
Doc's tornado is arguably one of his best moves in his toolkit. It can be used for edgeguarding. They can simply jump offstage and mash down-b to catch recovering opponents, and it will potentially kill their opponents as early as 70-80%. The tornado can also be used as a recovery option. What most docs will do when sent offstage is to mash down-b to "hover" a bit, and then double jump and up-b back on stage. Sometimes, even if they're close to ledge, they'll still go for attempt the tornado to catch opponents who are trying to edgeguard/gimp them. This is a lot more effective than people give credit for, since it actually reverses the situation and puts the edgeguarder into a disadvantage state (and yes, it can send people into the blastzone as early as 70-80% especially with rage).
Watch out for Doc's up-b. Not only can it link well from jab2, but it can also be used OoS. It is one of THE BEST OoS moves in the game, and it can kill at high% near ledge. It can also be linked from a d-throw at high% with mindgames if you're not careful. Also, Doc's up-b allows him to escape from multijabs if he SDI's upward and mashes up-b.

With just these things, Doc may seem like a monster. However, he has multitude of problems that Palutena can expose.
Doctor Mario is one of the slowest characters in the game. He is slower than Dedede! This means that he will have some trouble approaching in general compared to the rest of the cast.
Doc's range is subpar like Mario's. This range trouble is more worrisome for doc than it is for Mario, however, due to his speed and a rather bad jump height. This means that Doc has to commit harder to attack than Mario.
The Doctor has one of the worst recoveries in the game, despite his tornado. Doc can only "hover" with the use of mashing down-b once with his tornado while in air, so there's no need to be afraid of going for gimps if you're sure he already used a tornado to hover once.
Doc's pills are pretty bad projectiles. They are slow and don't travel far. On stage, you can either back off and reflect them from a safe distance where doc won't be able to punish you, or you can perfect sheild them as you run for them and punish them accordingly. Most can also dash below the pills if you time it right, since the pills bounce up rather high up.
Doc's d-throw can be scary, but you can still escape from it. Just try to DI away from him and jump away from him if he's trying to finish you off with a fair. One thing you have to keep in mind is that Doc can read your double jump and he himself can double jump for you. Be prepared to avoid him properly by launching out an aerial or airdodging at a proper time.

If you keep these info in mind, Palutena can do multitude of things. Palu can outspeed Doc, so running away from him and chasing him shouldn't be a problem. Palutena should be able to outrange Doc in neutral most of the time; the only thing she has to be aware of is Doc's b-air. Doc isn't too great at escaping Palu's combos as well. Just do bread-and-butter combos. He also has worse landing options than Palutena, and Palu can punish landings rather well (Dash attack, u-air, n-air, dash grab, etc.). Palu is good at edgeguarding (as most of you know). Just be careful of things like n-air, d-air, or tornado at landing, but you should be able to challenge this with dash attack or b-air. You can use n-air or b-air mostly, and maybe b-air and counter. All you have to be aware of is Doc's tornado. Do not challenge that; it's not worth the risk. If doc throws pills at you at neutral, either reflect it, power shield through it, or dash under it if you're feeling lucky.

One thing you have to be careful with doc: Don't just sit in shield near him. He packs a punch against shields, so you should always be moving around. Obviously, I'm not saying to never shield, since shielding benefits Palu a lot, but just be aware that Doc can damage your shield pretty well.

Also, Palu's b-air is just too good in this MU.

Just space yourself well and you should be fine.

Palutena wins the MU 70:30. Palutena has the means of staying out of doc's close quarter combat, and Doc just can't keep up with Palu's movements.

If you have anything else to add, or if you disagree with any of these points, lemme know.

 

[SonicNKnux]

I'm not sure if this thread is still ongoing and relevant, but I would like to shed some light on a MU no one will particularly care about: Doctor Mario.

Doctor Mario is slow, but he's known to pack a punch and deal lots of damage to his opponents.
His pills allow him to cover for his bad coverage on stage. It can also be used when he is recovering high from the side of the stage to cover his landing options.
He has Mario's frame-data, so his jabs, tilts, and smashes are all quick. His jab2 links well with up-b at high %, and this can kill near ledge. His d-tilt and u-tilt are good combo tilts, and he will use them to rack up % and potentially lead up to a grab. He can throw out smashes (particularly u-smashes) and can usually get away with it. His f-smash will kill as early as 80% near ledge if you're not careful. The back-side of doc's d-smash hits stronger than the front-side.
His down-throw can lead up to aerials such as u-air, b-air, and f-air. U-air is his go-to follow up. Doc will try to go for u-air strings as he descends. His b-air followup would be used at mid%. There isn't much you can do to avoid this, since it's mostly used to damage you. Followup f-air is his finishing move, but it cannot confirm into a true combo against Palutena. If landed, however, it can kill early, so beware.
His short hop is incredibly good. Be wary of short-hop bairs, as this will be one of his main poking tools. They damage a lot (14% if sweetspotted, if I'm not mistaken), so do not run into this. His b-air also kills pretty well near ledge.
Doc's tornado is arguably one of his best moves in his toolkit. It can be used for edgeguarding. They can simply jump offstage and mash down-b to catch recovering opponents, and it will potentially kill their opponents as early as 70-80%. The tornado can also be used as a recovery option. What most docs will do when sent offstage is to mash down-b to "hover" a bit, and then double jump and up-b back on stage. Sometimes, even if they're close to ledge, they'll still go for attempt the tornado to catch opponents who are trying to edgeguard/gimp them. This is a lot more effective than people give credit for, since it actually reverses the situation and puts the edgeguarder into a disadvantage state (and yes, it can send people into the blastzone as early as 70-80% especially with rage).
Watch out for Doc's up-b. Not only can it link well from jab2, but it can also be used OoS. It is one of THE BEST OoS moves in the game, and it can kill at high% near ledge. It can also be linked from a d-throw at high% with mindgames if you're not careful. Also, Doc's up-b allows him to escape from multijabs if he SDI's upward and mashes up-b.

With just these things, Doc may seem like a monster. However, he has multitude of problems that Palutena can expose.
Doctor Mario is one of the slowest characters in the game. He is slower than Dedede! This means that he will have some trouble approaching in general compared to the rest of the cast.
Doc's range is subpar like Mario's. This range trouble is more worrisome for doc than it is for Mario, however, due to his speed and a rather bad jump height. This means that Doc has to commit harder to attack than Mario.
The Doctor has one of the worst recoveries in the game, despite his tornado. Doc can only "hover" with the use of mashing down-b once with his tornado while in air, so there's no need to be afraid of going for gimps if you're sure he already used a tornado to hover once.
Doc's pills are pretty bad projectiles. They are slow and don't travel far. On stage, you can either back off and reflect them from a safe distance where doc won't be able to punish you, or you can perfect sheild them as you run for them and punish them accordingly. Most can also dash below the pills if you time it right, since the pills bounce up rather high up.
Doc's d-throw can be scary, but you can still escape from it. Just try to DI away from him and jump away from him if he's trying to finish you off with a fair. One thing you have to keep in mind is that Doc can read your double jump and he himself can double jump for you. Be prepared to avoid him properly by launching out an aerial or airdodging at a proper time.

If you keep these info in mind, Palutena can do multitude of things. Palu can outspeed Doc, so running away from him and chasing him shouldn't be a problem. Palutena should be able to outrange Doc in neutral most of the time; the only thing she has to be aware of is Doc's b-air. Doc isn't too great at escaping Palu's combos as well. Just do bread-and-butter combos. He also has worse landing options than Palutena, and Palu can punish landings rather well (Dash attack, u-air, n-air, dash grab, etc.). Palu is good at edgeguarding (as most of you know). Just be careful of things like n-air, d-air, or tornado at landing, but you should be able to challenge this with dash attack or b-air. You can use n-air or b-air mostly, and maybe b-air and counter. All you have to be aware of is Doc's tornado. Do not challenge that; it's not worth the risk. If doc throws pills at you at neutral, either reflect it, power shield through it, or dash under it if you're feeling lucky.

One thing you have to be careful with doc: Don't just sit in shield near him. He packs a punch against shields, so you should always be moving around. Obviously, I'm not saying to never shield, since shielding benefits Palu a lot, but just be aware that Doc can damage your shield pretty well.

Also, Palu's b-air is just too good in this MU.

Just space yourself well and you should be fine.

Palutena wins the MU 70:30. Palutena has the means of staying out of doc's close quarter combat, and Doc just can't keep up with Palu's movements.

If you have anything else to add, or if you disagree with any of these points, lemme know.

Just wanted to say I care, and have read your post :D Now when I read it again maybe I'll add more.

 

[Zareidriel]

Guys, you already have a thread for posts like that:

http://smashboards.com/threads/palutenas-match-ups-new-format-all-character-discussion.386698/

Please stop posting here =P

 

[_Darkpit_]

Dear Palutena mainer, dear Palutena players!

Sorry to post this but I need all of you.I think you all know of the counter problem with Lady Palutena. Thats why I prepared a video for you! I would develope more videos like that. Because of the counter bug its impossible to counter against the opponent. That can't be true!!!! In my opinion we should team upI My suggestion is that we write to Nintendo e-mails. What do you think?

Here is my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kvWQmtvw9I

You can spread it in Youtube, Facebook, Miiverse (Palutena >SUPPORT< Community). I'm online to tell you that. I need all of you to reach this aim. Bayonetta was nerfed (edited) too!


Do you agree? Another suggestions?