Matchup Chart General

Marc

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#1
The Matchup Chart is a fine project, but is currently going nowhere. Here are my suggestions to make it work:

-Appoint a key Project Manager who keeps an overview and is responsible for bringing it all together. Who wants to do this?
-Appoint a person for every character. This person will maintain a topic on the character in question and walk through the 11 matchups to deal with. I suggest not doing them one at a time, but you could consider batches of 3/4. Who wants to do what character?
-Discussion is one thing, but more importantly, have people take stances and apply ratings to matchups. I'm assuming the -4 to +4 rating system is the best idea here and accepted by now, but I don't really care if it's different as long as it's clear to everyone.
-Move on after a set period of time. What you want to aim for is having a period of like 6 weeks for all character topics to reach a consensus rating on all matchups for that character.
-I think everyone should be able to chime in on everything with this few members and judge for themselves if they are qualified enough. You might want to assign panels though.
-After six weeks you have 132 matchup ratings for 66 actual matchups, meaning numbers from both sides that have to be reconciled. For this you could consider the topic leaders duking it out in debates, but you're already quite far in this phase.

If we can get this underway I could ask an admin to create a subforum for it.
 

SheerMadness

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#2
but is currently going nowhere
If you want my honest opinion I think it's going nowhere because it's been beaten to death. It's a 12 year old game with limited characters and stages, this will be the 8000th time we've discussed match ups.

Plus were taking on a worn out subject with a very limited audience which will hurt discussion even more.

Match up discussions and Tier lists are better suited for the normal forum and not the backroom IMO. Again were a radically different community than both melee and brawl so we can't really treat the backroom the same way.

*Waits for someone to get pissed at me for sharing my honest opinion*
 

SheerMadness

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#3
But if everyone in the backroom honestly feels like we should tackle the subject again I'll do my best to contribute.
 

Marc

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#4
If it's that worn out, getting an accurate matchup chart out should be easy. I don't know to what extent there is already one out there, but it's pretty much a fighting game staple and a solid foundation for character discussion or even tier lists. If there's already one everyone can find themselves in, this project is redundant, but if not, it would be a contribution. Even moreso if it's that obvious and a consensus can be reached quickly, now's a good time to set it in stone.
 
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#5
I think we should be working on the character matchup miniguides in the 'one person does skeleton, backroom discusses it' style. The format I used will lead us to giving matchup ratios/advantage labels for each matchup anyway - see my pikachu thread. If we can coordinate that and put it together, it'll be far more organised (and more importantly, comprehensive) than going through one character/matchup at a time.
 

SheerMadness

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#6
If it's that worn out, getting an accurate matchup chart out should be easy. I don't know to what extent there is already one out there, but it's pretty much a fighting game staple and a solid foundation for character discussion or even tier lists. If there's already one everyone can find themselves in, this project is redundant, but if not, it would be a contribution. Even moreso if it's that obvious and a consensus can be reached quickly, now's a good time to set it in stone.
The problem is no one is going to be motivated to discuss it yet again. Just like with the previous match ups we've tried. It's even harder when it's a really small backroom where a bunch of members aren't even going to comment on match ups they don't know.

But again, I'll comment on match ups I know. Which unfortunately is only Fox/Yoshi.

EDIT: Actually I think we should take a vote on whether or not people in the backroom are even interested in taking on another match up project. Thus avoiding another big letdown if nobody is at all interested.
 

Marc

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#7
Maybe. Look, I'm only trying to provide you with a system that has worked before for roughly ten times as many matchups. If there's not enough interest to do this in the first place, the project should be scrapped for now.
 
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#9
I think the match-up guides are far more important than the match-up chart. Not only have match-up charts, like Sheer said, have been beaten to death, but the main forum is making one right now anyways. The match-up guide sort of thing has never been done before AFAIK, and I see noobs asking how to play x match-up all the time, so it seems like it would benefit the community a lot more.

I didn't expect my skeleton guide idea to be that popular lol
 

Marc

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#10
One doesn't preclude the other, but you got to first agree on the severity of the matchup before you can do any sort of writeup. In the process of coming to ratings, you will already be discussing the matchup in-depth for a later guide.

I'm probably going to leave this for actual room leaders to deal with though. Just follow whatever calls they make, as it really bothers me how concerned everyone is with procedure rather than getting things done back here.
 
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#12
People here generally know how good or bad a matchup is already and even if they are wrong, it will not be by a margin of 1 or more. Most of us play all the matchups we intend to write about/discuss, and those we don't we have a general idea of because there's only so much a character can viably do.

The questionable ones are the mid-tier ones, because so many people play the top and low tiers. These can first be written up by people who are very familiar with the characters - Sheer could do Yoshi, Boom DK, maybe Firo doing Ness. From there we have a plethora of material to discuss, which I think will be an incentive for activity.
 

firo

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#13
I'm getting frustrated at the lack of progress here. I'm just going to go ahead and do something.

Ness matchups:

Each matchup will be rated on a 5 point likert scale, 1 being a really bad matchup, 5 being a really good matchup, 3 being essentially even (or close to it).

Dreamland:
Ness v:

Pikachu: 1
Fox: 2
Kirby: 1
Falcon: 2
Mario: 3
Yoshi: 4 (maybe 3)
DK: 2
Jigglypuff: 3? (unsure)
Luigi: 3
Link: 4
Samus: 4 (maybe 3)

Hyrule:

Pikachu: 2 (maybe 1)
Fox: 2
Kirby: 1
Falcon: 2
Mario: 3
Yoshi: 3
DK: 3
Jigglypuff: 3
Luigi: 4
Link: 4
Samus: 4

My opinions of course. Matchups don't look too good but Ness stinks. I'd be happy to go in depth about a matchup if people inquire.
 
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#14
Try using that format of +5 to -5, it's still a Likert scale, just one with 10 points rather than 5.

If people *really* want a matchup chart...I guess we could just get it done and have icy beautify it or something...unless someone here wants to do it...
 

Nintendude

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#15
I still have an issue with using 6 degrees of balance for a matchup chart. How can one distinguish between +4 and +5? Or +2 and +3? It has no meaning if only qualitative arguments are used. I still stand by my assertion that the old Even, Advantage, Strong Advantage system is the best way to do it.

This is a big reason why I'm not very motivated to participate in matchup chart discussion. I can definitively say that Pikachu has an advantage over Mario, but if I were to label it with a number, I have no idea if it would be +2 or +3. If anyone can actually put up a strong argument of why it is definitely +2 or definitely +3, please enlighten me, but imo it is impossible to do that because the numbers don't mean anything.
 
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#16
That is why I'm advocating the 'one person writes analysis, people discuss' format. I can talk about Link all day, but ask me about Ness or Puff or whoever and I'm pretty clueless.
 

firo

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#17
I do agree with nintendude somewhat. Having 5 degrees in each direction in my opinion is too granular for matchups. The even, advantage, strong advantage (which I've just translated into numbers) seems to make more sense. But I'll do whatever scale is needed.
 

SuPeRbOoM

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#18
I'll list off what I think DK matchups are on Dreamland as well.

Dreamland:
DK v:

Pikachu: Disadvantage
Fox: Slight advantage
Kirby: Disadvantage
Falcon: Disadvantage
Mario: Even
Yoshi: lol yoshi, I want to say advantage but I think it might be even(yoshi hate)
Ness: Major advantage
Jigglypuff: Advantage
Luigi: Slight advantage I think
Link: Advantage
Samus: Advantage

Only Dreamland and not Hyrule.
 

SilentSlayers

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#19
As a Yoshi player, I think Yoshi has an advantage over DK on Dreamland.

I know I've won a game or two over your DK on DL with Yoshi.
 
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#20
I still have an issue with using 6 degrees of balance for a matchup chart. How can one distinguish between +4 and +5? Or +2 and +3? It has no meaning if only qualitative arguments are used. I still stand by my assertion that the old Even, Advantage, Strong Advantage system is the best way to do it.

This is a big reason why I'm not very motivated to participate in matchup chart discussion. I can definitively say that Pikachu has an advantage over Mario, but if I were to label it with a number, I have no idea if it would be +2 or +3. If anyone can actually put up a strong argument of why it is definitely +2 or definitely +3, please enlighten me, but imo it is impossible to do that because the numbers don't mean anything.
Just think of it as "Slight advantage, medium advantage, large advantage"

A baseline would also help. So we should probably set a few obvious ones in advance like Pika/Samus is "large advantage" or "+3", while Fox/Yoshi is "slight advantage" or "+1" etc.
 
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#21
Hm.

Link on Hyrule:

Pika: Large Disadvantage
Fox: Large Disadvantage (slightly worse than Pika, I stress this)
Kirby: Disadvantage
Falcon: Disadvantage
Mario: Disadvantage
Yoshi: Small Disadvantage
DK: Small Disadvantage
Ness: Small Advantage
Jigglypuff: Small Advantage or Even
Luigi: Advantage
Samus: Advantage

Link on Dreamland

Pika: Huge Disadvantage (one of like two or three in the game imo)
Fox: Disadvantage
Kirby: (Large) Disadvantage
Falcon: Large Disadvantage
Mario: Large Disadvantage
Yoshi: Disadvantage
DK: Disadvantage
Ness: Small Disadvantage
Jigglypuff: Small Disadvantage
Luigi: Small Advantage or Even
Samus: Small Disadvantage or Even

the word 'advantage' is being broken apart in my eyes >_>
 

Mahie

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#22
According to the above, we do need more than just 3 degrees. Huge/Strong/Advantage/Slight which in the end is the same as +1~+4

I'll do what I think are the Fox ones on Hyrule.

Fox on Hyrule :
Pikachu : Small disadvantage
Kirby : Advantage or Small Advantage
Falcon : Advantage
Mario : Small Advantage
Yoshi : Small Advantage or Advantage
DK : Advantage
Ness : Advantage
Jigglypuff : Strong Advantage
Luigi : Advantage
Link : Strong Advantage
Samus : Huge Advantage

Fox's pretty good on Hyrule.
 

King Funk

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#23
Falcon on Hyrule:

Pikachu : Disadvantage
Fox: Disadvantage or Strong Disadvantage
Kirby : Strong Disadvantage
Mario : Disadvantage
Yoshi : Advantage
DK : Small Advantage
Ness : Advantage
Jigglypuff : Small Advantage
Luigi : Strong Advantage
Link : Small Advantage
Samus : Advantage

Falcon on Dreamland:

Pikachu : Even or Small Disadvantage
Fox: Small Advantage
Kirby : Strong Disadvantage
Mario : Disadvantage
Yoshi : Advantage
DK : Small Advantage
Ness : Strong Advantage
Jigglypuff : Advantage
Luigi : Strong Advantage
Link : Strong Advantage
Samus : Advantage
 

SheerMadness

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#26
...

Opinions are all equal.

I'm not sure how to judge match up charts. Do I think about average examples of characters or top examples of characters?

Like Yoshi vs Ness hyrule am I thinking about average Ness or Frogle's Ness?
 

Mahie

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#28
Top level play with both characters having the same skill level. So if it's Frogles ness, it has to be vs. a yoshi thats as good as his ness.
 
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#29
Alright, we're going to start up individual matchup projects soon, 4 characters at a time. Basically, just give your character's matchups on Hyrule/DL with every other character in the format shown above by Funk, Mahie, Boom and myself. Join as many 'projects' as you feel you can contribute to. There will be deadlines (fairly lax considering they're just lists of advantages).

It'll start up pretty soon, as soon as I can get my exams out of the way and organise it. I'm looking for expression of interest.

Note that this is not the miniguide project *yet*. We just want the matchup advantage descriptions for now. Are there any objections to this format?
 
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#30
My opinions on Samus:

DL / Congo

Pika: Disadvantage
Fox: Strong Disadvantage
Kirby: Disadvantage
Falcon: Disadvantage
Mario: Slight Disadvantage
Yoshi: Slight Disadvantage
DK: Slight Disadvantage
Ness: Slight Disadvantage
Jigglypuff: Even
Luigi: Slight Disadvantage
Link: Even

Hyrule:

Pika: Disadvantage
Fox: Strong Disadvantage
Kirby: Disadvantage
Falcon: Strong Disadvantage
Mario: Slight Disadvantage
Yoshi: Slight Disadvantage
DK: Slight Disadvantage
Ness: Slight Disadvantage
Jigglypuff: Slight Disadvantage
Luigi: Slight Disadvantage
Link: Slight Disadvantage

I'm very surprised by some of King Funk's Falcon matchups. I'd change the following:

Falcon on Hyrule:

Pikachu: Even
Fox: Even
Kirby: Disadvantage
Mario: Even
Yoshi: Advantage
DK: Advantage
Ness: Advantage
Luigi: Advantage
Link: Small Advantage
Samus: Strong Advantage

Falcon on Dreamland:

Pikachu : Slight Disadvantage
Kirby: Disadvantage
Mario: Slight Disadvantage
Yoshi: Slight Advantage
Ness: Strong Advantage
Jigglypuff: Advantage
Luigi: Advantage
Link: Strong Advantage
Samus: Advantage
 

dandan

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#31
i am quite surprised with your samus vs ness on dl/congo, i would think it would be at least even, what made you think of slight disadvangtage. just wondering :)

going to do pikachu matchups later, pretty hard to decide how much of an advantage he has on every char.
 
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#34
Alright so before we start we have a few things to figure out...

1) Who is going to cover what?

In order to save time i suggest we just use the ones we already have some members (apparently) interested in;

Link: asianaussie
Falcon: boom/King Funk/ballin4life
Fox: ballin4life
Pika: dandan/Surri

Anyone who wishes to opt out of a project should do so here and now lest it get started and someone forget they even were in...

Anyone wishing to join a characters discussion can do so by simply asking, please note though we are trying to get only people who are confident with their abilities as that char to participate, so unless you are sure please do not join.

2) A leader / manager / organizer must be chosen for each group
(They'll be the OP of the chars thread, This'll be completely up to each characters group to decide.)

The leader will be given a deadline (shouldn't be hard to meet as we only have to preset advantage lists), firstly for the creation of each members advantage list, then the following debates leading to a mutual list (or at least as close as we can get).

So let's start gathering members for each group. If you want to be part of the creation of either Link, Falcon, Fox or Pika simply state you wish to be in the group.

We'll give this 3 days...(that'll be when AA gets back as well) at that time, everyone whos in each group will have to determine their leader...that should only take a very little while. All in all we should have the threads set-up with groups / leaders ready to post their lists / discuss them by next week at the latest.
 
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#35
Wait, so you have to say you want to be part of the character "group" before you can discuss them? I thought it would just be open discussion with a chosen leader, but OK, whatever I guess.

I'll join all 4 of Link, Fox, Falcon, and Pikachu lol
 
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#36
I'm free now, my last (and only - my course is integrated) exam is done and I have 6 weeks of bliss.

I honestly only know about Link and possibly Kirby...maybe Yoshi but I think there are better people to discuss them, so I'll stick to Link, and perhaps overall joint management of the project with Surri.
 

Marc

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#38
I'm glad this is moving ahead and am completely fine with you guys doing this in your own way, as long as there's some planning involved. :)
 
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#40
Wait, so you have to say you want to be part of the character "group" before you can discuss them?
Yes, we are trying to narrow things down and give those who know the most about the specific char they are working on, the best opportunity to work it out.


Organization is the biggest thing this BR missed when doing everything up to this point. We have ignored the systems designed to help us.

Either way i REALLY cant see it being a problem, there will be no one "cut" from being in a group...this is just a way to make things more clear.

Link: asianaussie / Star King
Falcon: boom / King Funk / ballin4life / Star King
Fox: ballin4life / Star King
Pika: dandan /Surri / Star King / King Funk

We'll only be doing four at a time so please stick to these for now when requesting a char.



I'm down to talk about the Falcon ones, but I think my views on Fox are a bit too INCONSISTENT with those of everyone else.
Does this mean you wish to be taken off the fox list?
 
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