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Event - Apex 2015 Matchup Breakdown: Chillin vs. Leffen Salty Suite

Who will win this salty match?

  • Liquid'Chillin

    Votes: 27 34.6%
  • Leffen

    Votes: 51 65.4%

  • Total voters
    78

NFST4R

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Alright, so you all have probably heard of the immense amount of trash-talk that has transpired between Leffen, the best Fox in Europe, and Chillin, a veteran that handed Ken his first loss in tournament. It started on twitter when Leffen basically insulted Chillin for being old and washed out, claiming Chillin was not fit to win competitions anymore. Chillin retaliated by calling a money match, and eventually, something even bigger than the money was wagered: The ability to use the original Fox color for a whole year. All this hype aside, let's delve into the matchup itself.

In the Neutral:
Leffen is fast. If you haven't seen this guy play, it is ****ing crazy, he moves from attack to attack at such a velocity that is almost hard to follow, and that kind of speed can be very overwhelming. Now, this is fox ditto's, so it will obviously be all over the place. One thing that is important to note is that Leffen doesn't usually shine spike. He has Build-a-Bear combo's and usually struggles to combo a fox. Leffen could just play this match really gay and laser the whole time, but there is so much salt in the air I am sure he is gonna leave a lasting impression on Chillin. Leffen has a very rush-down style | he is consistently imposing his will onto you, whether it be with run up jabs, shines, upsmashes, or grabs (all of which he uses effectively against spacies and peach alike.)

Chillin, on the other hand, is one of the most unorthodox Fox mains in Melee. One thing you can instantly notice about his fox is that he full hops VERY OFTEN. This can either hurt or help Chillin. Leffen is aggressive, as perviously mentioned, so it could be that Leffen gets falling up-aired into long Chillin combos. Chillin is an old school player, so he will probably take old-school options, such as up-smash out of shiel into consideration. Leffen will likely sleep on these options, being used to all the new tech and not experiencing the older tech in quite a while. All this taken into account, there is one thing Chillin has that can tip the scales: Leffen is ass at Fox dittoes. Chillin has been playing this matchup for a REALLY long time, and has it down to a sweet science. The only person I can see being better than Chillin at Corgi Dittoes is Lucky. Chillin has the shine spike precision that Leffen just doesn't.

On the Edge:

Leffen has a very fast ledge dash, and does not often mess up tech skill. His recovery options are very creative as well. Leffen has a history of choking toward the end of matches and sets, so the edge game will be important as the set goes longer.

Chillin is a shine spike master. Unfortunately, this is his only advantage. His ledge guards aren't as clean, nor are his recovery options. If he mixes going straight in, to the ledge and up adequately he should be fine.

Add anything you feel I left out about the matchup. A lot of this is my opinion based off of what I have seen from both of them, so I am interested to hear your voice!
 

Crossie

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What makes you say Leffen is bad at the ditto? You made a big deal out of that point and I don't see any evidence for it. He 6-0'd Armada's Fox, which, despite not being his Peach, is still pretty godly. I also don't think Leffen has a problem with shine spikes. And to say he has a rush down style is deceptive; Leffen will happily laser you to death if you let him. He mixes up laser camping and aggressive, technical approaches. I think one of the important reasons Leffen has a big edge in this is because one of Chillin's big advantages, his use of up airs, is countered by one of Leffen's big advantages, his use of up tilts. Leffen uses up tilts amazingly and it's going to make it hard for Chillin to get any big combos started with up airs like he usually can. Moreover, the fact that it's a Bo9 is hugely advantageous for Leffen. Leffen is one of the smartest, most adaptive players in the world. He's infamous for losing two games and then making the 3-0 comeback. I'd love to see Chillin win, but I don't see how he would.
 

Dansofree

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Yeah leffen is in trouble, he sucks at the ditto. He definitely couldn't beat somebody who is really good at fox dittos, like armada, or ice, or colbol, and especially not somebody like hax.
 

Johnknight1

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Leffen is going to destroy Chillin.

Leffen right now is top 3-6 in the world, and Chillin probably isn't even top 20.

Leffen beat Mango with Fox, a feat no smasher has done since 2008 when Mango first started picking up Fox.

This is going to be brutal. Anyone picking Chillin is picking with their heart and not with their mind.

But hey, if you guys believe it so bad, just quote me and we can have a bet over it.
Yeah leffen is in trouble, he sucks at the ditto. He definitely couldn't beat somebody who is really good at fox dittos, like armada, or ice, or colbol, and especially not somebody like hax.
Leffen has beaten Armada thrice in sets this year, and beat his Fox at Paragon just a bit over a week ago.

Leffen has also beaten Ice on numerous occasions. Besides that, all 4 of those players you listed are leagues above Chillin.

It's not even close.
 
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Crossie

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Leffen has beaten Armada thrice in sets this year, and beat his Fox at Paragon just a bit over a week ago.

Leffen has also beaten Ice on numerous occasions. Besides that, all 4 of those players you listed are leagues above Chillin.

It's not even close.
Pretty sure Dan was being sarcastic
 

Johnknight1

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Pretty sure Dan was being sarcastic
Even if he's not, that poll result is embarrassing.

36% of people right now think Chillin will win. When I made my post I made it a tie.

That's utterly ridiculous. Leffen has beaten 3 of the best 4 active players in the world (not counting PPMD because he's been out) in the last 3 months (2 of them twice), Chillin hasn't even come close.

Leffen isn't going to be cocky, because he actually trains to win APEX, so he'll be at his best.
 

Johnknight1

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Other than Hax at WHOBO?
Mango's Falco as Fox*.

Mango is notorious for hating Fox dittos. Unlike Jigglypuff dittos and various HBox related incidents, it did not elicit him to switch mains.

Mango just goes to his co-main Falco instead ever since that incident. He doesn't like how the Fox ditto forces a slowed down match. He wants fast action at his pace where he's in control. I can't blame him, since that's how he wins. That's how he's the greatest of all-time beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 

1MachGO

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Mango's Falco as Fox*.

Mango is notorious for hating Fox dittos. Unlike Jigglypuff dittos and various HBox related incidents, it did not elicit him to switch mains.

Mango just goes to his co-main Falco instead ever since that incident. He doesn't like how the Fox ditto forces a slowed down match. He wants fast action at his pace where he's in control. I can't blame him, since that's how he wins. That's how he's the greatest of all-time beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Don't know where you're getting your facts from. Mango had been going Falco vs. Fox since well before that set (in fact, he beat Mojo's fox with falco right before playing Hax that day lol). Hax beat his Falco game one and Mango switched (probably because he felt like his Falco wasn't on point enough to win the set) so it was likely he was going to lose regardless.
 

NFST4R

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DIdnt Chillin beat Mango at Bar Wars 2? In a fox ditto and against the Falco? He 2-0ed him.
 

Darklink401

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Chillin is solid (ironically)

But I mean.....Leffen is Leffen.I REALLY don't think Chillin's gonna win this.

If he does, props to him, but at that point, he might as well just go wail on M2K and hungrybox.
 

AJawesome07

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It'll be close, and definitely not easy, but I do think Chillin has a good shot at winning. Most people definitely aren't giving Chillin a fair shake. Leffen may have more hard skill, and Chillin knows this and fully admits that Leffen beats him in this department. But Chillin's edge is primarily in two places. First of all, Chillin is flat out better than Leffen in Fox dittos. Chillin says that Fox dittos are his best matchup, and Fox dittos are one of Leffen's worst matchups. And then, Chillin simply has more experience than Leffen has, and experience with a strong composition will take you a long way.
 

Darklink401

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It'll be close, and definitely not easy, but I do think Chillin has a good shot at winning. Most people definitely aren't giving Chillin a fair shake. Leffen may have more hard skill, and Chillin knows this and fully admits that Leffen beats him in this department. But Chillin's edge is primarily in two places. First of all, Chillin is flat out better than Leffen in Fox dittos. Chillin says that Fox dittos are his best matchup, and Fox dittos are one of Leffen's worst matchups. And then, Chillin simply has more experience than Leffen has, and experience with a strong composition will take you a long way.
Now there's just two main factors to consider

1. Will Chillin be able to put his experience to good use agaisnt an amazingly fast Fox, who is basically regarded as a God-slayer, and come out on top?
2. Will the gap between Leffen's and Chillin's skill be equalized by the Fox ditto matchup that Chillin likes so much?

We just gotta see if Chillin still has it in him.
 

AJawesome07

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Now there's just two main factors to consider

1. Will Chillin be able to put his experience to good use agaisnt an amazingly fast Fox, who is basically regarded as a God-slayer, and come out on top?
2. Will the gap between Leffen's and Chillin's skill be equalized by the Fox ditto matchup that Chillin likes so much?

We just gotta see if Chillin still has it in him.
I'm a regular on Chillin's stream, and he sounds really confident. He's not worried at all. I'm just unsure of how Leffen feels.
 

Rosy

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Leffen has beaten Armada thrice in sets this year, and beat his Fox at Paragon just a bit over a week ago.

Hey took 1 game out of two after almost getting 4 stocked two games in a row. Not to mention he almsot lost the third game as well. Leffens booty at fox dittos and should get wrecked so he can learn so manners.
 

Samtaro

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Can we get a breakdown of the Ken PCChris game... that is going to be worth all of the Apex 2015 struggles.
 
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Crossie

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Leffen has beaten Armada thrice in sets this year, and beat his Fox at Paragon just a bit over a week ago.

Hey took 1 game out of two after almost getting 4 stocked two games in a row. Not to mention he almsot lost the third game as well. Leffens booty at fox dittos and should get wrecked so he can learn so manners.
What is this. Where are you people getting the impression that Leffen is bad at Fox dittos? Did you see the way Armada was playing? It's incredible that Leffen clutched it out, there's no way Chillin would've just 3-0'd Armada. I don't think Chillin could beat Armada's Fox at all. Also, Leffen's manners are fine, he's just upfront and open. I love Chillin and I'd love to see him win, but Leffen's a much better player and not the terrible guy people somehow still think he is. I thought he was starting to lose his bad reputation. Go watch his interviews at recent tournaments, he knows how good he is and he's ambitious, but he's not arrogant or malicious.

WAIT WHAT IS THIS
 

AJawesome07

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What is this. Where are you people getting the impression that Leffen is bad at Fox dittos? Did you see the way Armada was playing? It's incredible that Leffen clutched it out, there's no way Chillin would've just 3-0'd Armada. I don't think Chillin could beat Armada's Fox at all. Also, Leffen's manners are fine, he's just upfront and open. I love Chillin and I'd love to see him win, but Leffen's a much better player and not the terrible guy people somehow still think he is. I thought he was starting to lose his bad reputation. Go watch his interviews at recent tournaments, he knows how good he is and he's ambitious, but he's not arrogant or malicious.
Leffen is kinda bad at Fox dittos. I know that Leffen has dropped some questionable sets to SFat, and he only narrowly beat Armada's Fox, which is very unpolished. And I don't think Leffen is an entirely bad guy. He does have a massive ego, and tends to be a bit too honest that it can be just plain mean sometimes. For example, at Paragon, with his interview with D1, he said that he's not worrying about playing Chillin at all, because he thinks it'll a guaranteed win for him, and he also said that Chillin was washed up and that he didn't have the skill to win anything. That's just mean, but I don't think Leffen is wholeheartedly mean, he's just mean when he lets his ego get the better of him, which is pretty often, actually.
 

Darklink401

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They announced this on the VGBootcamp stream last night as one of the Salty Suites. Super hype right? I'm excited.
This is literall beautiful...but...PC Chris JUST returned.....

Ken's returned for a while....will PC Chris be able to stand up to him? o-o
 

Crossie

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Leffen is kinda bad at Fox dittos. I know that Leffen has dropped some questionable sets to SFat, and he only narrowly beat Armada's Fox, which is very unpolished. And I don't think Leffen is an entirely bad guy. He does have a massive ego, and tends to be a bit too honest that it can be just plain mean sometimes. For example, at Paragon, with his interview with D1, he said that he's not worrying about playing Chillin at all, because he thinks it'll a guaranteed win for him, and he also said that Chillin was washed up and that he didn't have the skill to win anything. That's just mean, but I don't think Leffen is wholeheartedly mean, he's just mean when he lets his ego get the better of him, which is pretty often, actually.
Not only is SFAT amazing at the Fox ditto, but I think he's heavily slept on in general. He's been so godly recently, I seriously think he's unquestionably a top 15 player. Armada's Fox was looking extremely polished when he pulled it out at Paragon. He almost beat Hungrybox with it, you don't do that with an unpolished Fox. And you can't use Chillin as an example. Of course he's going to talk like that about Chillin, it's a Salty Suite game, the salt and trash talk is what makes it so hype. Chillin does the same thing, none of that is entirely serious, they're just hyping up the Salty Suite.
They announced this on the VGBootcamp stream last night as one of the Salty Suites. Super hype right? I'm excited.
Lol they announced it three weeks ago.
This is literall beautiful...but...PC Chris JUST returned.....

Ken's returned for a while....will PC Chris be able to stand up to him? o-o
PC Chris is going to get styled on. It'll be hype, though.
 

Darklink401

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He DID say he's been playing, just not competitively, and he DID play Dr. Pee Pee pretty well in Zenith 2012.

I guess we'll see o3o
 

Neil.

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Leffen will body Chillin. You're delusional if you think otherwise
 

Johnknight1

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Leffen will body Chillin. You're delusional if you think otherwise
Pretty much, but Smash World Forums is the home of delusional people, hence so many people voting for Chillin.

I personally vote that whoever voted for the wrong player gets the same ugly avatar for a week rofl.

Side note, but it would be hilarious if Leffen went up 4-0 and then pulled out a Samus on Chillin rofl.
Can we get a breakdown of the Ken PCChris game... that is going to be worth all of the Apex 2015 struggles.
I got a feeling that set will be amazing.

PC Chris almost beat Ice last week, and although we haven't seen Ken much since EVO, he did great at EVO.
 

Darklink401

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Pretty much, but Smash World Forums is the home of delusional people, hence so many people voting for Chillin.

I personally vote that whoever voted for the wrong player gets the same ugly avatar for a week rofl.

Side note, but it would be hilarious if Leffen went up 4-0 and then pulled out a Samus on Chillin rofl.

I got a feeling that set will be amazing.

PC Chris almost beat Ice last week, and although we haven't seen Ken much since EVO, he did great at EVO.
Wait he did what..

Thats so cool, what tournament was that?
 

Johnknight1

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So the 40% of you that voted for Chillin look really dumb, as expected. :p

I would say he was 1/5th the Smasher Leffen was but he couldn't even win a game when Leffen tried to give him one, THRICE!!!

===

Also, I called PC Chris vs. Ken being amazing. :shades:
I got a feeling that set will be amazing.

PC Chris almost beat Ice last week, and although we haven't seen Ken much since EVO, he did great at EVO.
 

Darklink401

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So the 40% of you that voted for Chillin look really dumb, as expected. :p

I would say he was 1/5th the Smasher Leffen was but he couldn't even win a game when Leffen tried to give him one, THRICE!!!

===

Also, I called PC Chris vs. Ken being amazing. :shades:
I don't even know why people thought Chillin could win.

Leffen was TOYING with him in the last game.
Pure disrespect.

But for some reason I like Leffen. XP
 
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RobinOnDrugs

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Come on, we all knew that Leffen was going to curbstomp Chillin. The guy has been on a roll lately.

And now there's going to be $1000 on the line between Mango and Leffen. It's like prowrasslin' but it's actually legit.
 

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Oh man that was hard to watch. I freaking love and hate Leffen though. He's cocky, but he's the villain Smash needs. It's fun.

It's hard to talk about Chillin's positioning, but he did put a lot of effort just to talk smack, and then not backing up any of it in the set.

Either way, looks like Mango is gonna deliver SWEET OL JUSTICE. Gotta recover from the hype tonight. Salty Suite was fun as ****.
 
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Johnknight1

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Mango vs. Leffen deserves its' own thread.
I don't even know why people thought Chillin could win.

Leffen was TOYING with him in the last game.
Pure disrespect.

But for some reason I like Leffen. XP
Dude Leffen stopped and toyed with him EVERY GAME.

He wanted to make it interesting and close because he was bored of dominating. He kept acting like Chillin could win and then kicked it into gear because honestly Leffen ins vastly superior to Chillin.

Leffen is my HEEL HERO!!!!
 
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kingman1

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Leffen is great. Chillin is good, but Leffen is better. That's pretty much it.
 

CAUP

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I lost all respect for leffen. I've never seen that level of disrespect
 

Darklink401

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I lost all respect for leffen. I've never seen that level of disrespect
But think about it; without that much disrespect, would it be Leffen?

I love how he plays such an antagonising role

And because of that, now we got a $1000 money match between Leffen and Mango XD
 

Johnknight1

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I lost all respect for leffen. I've never seen that level of disrespect
It's called THE SALTY SUITE for a reason.

Besides that, all this heat got attention on both guys. Chillin and Leffen both got a ton of new Twitch subs, Twitch followers, fans overall, YouTube views, sponsorship interest, Twitter followers, etc.

Dude LEFFEN IS TRENDING ON TWITTER IN AMERICA AND EUROPE!!! So it the Salty Suite!!!
 
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