Match-Ups

[Ørion]

I noticed something, there appear to be no threads for zamus's match-ups. There might be occasional threads asking a specific question, but no combined information on how good she does against other characters and specific strategies against other characters.

My idea is that this will become sort of like a wiki page. I will post the new responses in the threat as fast as possible giving credit to the contributor, and anyone who wants to can read on a specific character, or on any character. This way, we get a broad range of perspectives and some good information.


Bowser

Bowser is heavy, but also powerful. His F-smash has a bit of lethal range on it, plus his bowsercide technique can leave you high and dry. However, his attacks in the air aren't that hot, so use that to your advanctage. If he tries to Down B, just wait for it, dodge, and charge up your D smash and repeat it again to set him up for a combo. Also, use his lack of speed against him by using mind games and traps. using paralyzer shots short, then rushing him with a dash attack combo can fix his little game quick.

Stun combos should work fairly well as he's a large target. Your range on him should give you a significant advantage as well.

King DeDeDe

DeDeDe. ZSS has an advantage over DDD because she is faster,out ranges dedede(side B, I personally think jumping side B is useful), Dedede relies on an up close game besides the waddle dees. DDD is a good matchup for marth since he relies on being close.

But ZSS is fast and DDD is slow, and side B out ranges his F-tilt. Another reason she has an advantage is because ZSS cannot be chain throw by DDD, if you DI properly then it will fail after the first attempt. This limits DDD options for offense(Or rather shield grabs)
Because of this, you can take more risk up close as you may be block and thrown but not chain throwed.

In summary
1.She outranges DDD
2.She is faster
3. She can't be chain throwed by DDD(this is probably the biggest issue)

Against DDD

Out range him with side B, Wavebounce Side B, and short hops side B, and short hop landing side B. Throw him when he whiff an attack(F-tilt a good attack to capitalize on a throw if they whiff).Remember she has the longest throw in the game with the dashing shield grab. Space DDD out with Side B and stun gun and punish when he whiffs. You can also take some risks when you are up close since he can't chain throw you. Be careful of his U tilt as well.

Diddy Kong

One quick pointer is dash attack grab his bananas off the floor, and use your broken glide toss to throw them back at him
You can also down b footstool jump the banans as they're flying towards you...

Diddy Kong to Zero Suit Samus is a somewhat even match, if not for the fact that ZSS's moves have more range than Diddy's. While Diddy can move swifter and combo easier, what he lacks is some great KO moves. Also, since he falls fast, it can be amazingly easy to just juggle him with uair, then finish with B air. Another disadvantage is that his recovery can be countered very easily. If he uses the rocket barrels to boost, I usually use flip jump out of kick to destroy the barrels and make him fall down to the bottom, or it'll spike him.

His dash attack can outbeat ZSS and hits faster, however, I find it easier to shield grab him since he has a bit of lag behind some of his moves, particularly his ftilt.

Falco

Falco is an annoying little bird no matter how you look at it. I feel in this match-up Falco has a fair advantage in most situations. Not too huge but he is most definitely a threat and should be treated accordingly.

Falco has SHDL/SHTL along with the chain grab to dash attack-DLX hit-cancel combo with will eat a good 50% or more chunk out of your health. He also has a decent speed, a good bair and dair, a deceptively big range on his side smash (along with it hitting above and slightly behind) and if you aren't careful can laserlock you into a controller throwing fit!

In this match-up make the best use of your armor in the beginning to rack up quick damage and be on an equal or greater level when and if the Falco chain grab combo's you. Be wary but aggressive, once you're at 50% the chain grab is no longer a threat and the Falco will change their approach, so if they're the type don't let them spam lasers from the other side of the stage.

Speaking of stage this is a very big factor in the match-up as well. Any kind of long flat stage such as FD and Bridge of Eldin are a definite no no in your favor. Besides the fact the Falco can be cheap and chain grab you off the edge of the stage for a quick death on BoE stages that are long work in favor of chain grabs and laser spams. If able try and avoid FD, BoE, Smashville, and Yoshi's Island. Try places with platforms, Battlefield has been my best stage in this match-up by far but it's all up to what you're comfortable with.

"Shine time". Falco's reflector is also an annoying little device in his arsenal. I goes through walls can punish short hop neutral b's and is an overall good defense against dash attackers as well as a decent edge guard tool. Since you have to be pretty offensive against Falco's this can throw a wrench in the machine known as your game plan. Don't be afraid just cautious of this fact when facing down this foe.

In summary ZSS seems to have a pretty decent sized disadvantage in this match-up and it might come down to stage advantages whether you end up a winner or loser. Keep into account the chain throws, lasers, the reflector, and his overbearing annoying accent and you might just able to turn the tables to make this into a fairly easy face-off for you.

His chain-throw doesn't work on ZSS, thankfully. Second, attempting to spike you with his d-air will fail if you react quickly enough with the tether. It's just a matter of getting close enough to him.

Mr. Game and Watch

Only use paralyzer when you catch him off guard, other wise don't use it.
Stick to Dsmash.

Don't use moves that'll leave you vulnerable when he's high up. Do a couple fake aerial approaches and try to make him use his D-Air. That way you can just get in position and Side-Special, D-Smash, and whatnot.

Also your D-tilt is godly against him, and spamming grabs generally puts him in the air. So either scare him into going aerial and use your U-Special, Up Smash, or do a SH U-Air.

The one issue I do have fighting Game and Watch is because of anticipating a DI from throws. All of them look, relatively the same. Also his Up+Smash, and Side-Smash are the two moves you want to avoid entirely. Don't get to close and keep enough pressure and spacing so you don't get Flaming-Poop-on-a-sticked.

For the G&W conversation, i treat him kinda like a would toon like. Put him up in the air and bait him to use his dair on top of you. It is easy to dodge if you expect it, then you can punish easily with a side B or combos, depending on his percent.

Gannondorf

Basically, if you can make him miss once, you can really punish him. He's slow, and for such a big guy, he's actually kind of floaty, so once you get him airborne, you can keep him up for a very long time with USmash and UAir, throwing in FAirs and BAirs for more damage. This general idea can be applied (with adjustments, of course) to the other fatties, as well. It just seems to me like Ganon is laggier than DK and Bowser, making him a little easier to punish.

Against Ganon, you have to be really careful about edge guarding him, as he might do a SD side+B to take you with him. You can bait it, but you're risking death if you screw up. Also, if you're juggling him and at high %, be careful of his down+B as it has a good chance of trading hits with up-air when he's in the magnifying glass and can star KO you at relatively low %.

You're right that if you make him whiff a move, he's usually punishable. Stun gun can intercept his side+B, but his grounded down+B will often beat it. Both are pretty good approaches for him and recover relatively quickly (or at least can put him far enough away that it's hard to punish him). Play the spacing game and bait attacks, be careful of his dash attack.

You'd think that because he's slow, he can't punish very well, but since Zamus does not have auto cancel moves, he has plenty of time to punish. He also has 3 moves that help him close distance fast, the down+B, side+B, and dash attack (which has reaches beyond his shoulder). All of them set up into other attacks, and he can KO at pretty low %, so as long as you don't leave yourself vulnerable with laggy moves (whiffed f-smash, d-air, grab, etc.), you should be okay.

Ike

Since Zamus' DashA is such a good combo starter, Ike can be tempted into trying to DownB to counter it. If you can get him into that, dashgrabbing into a DThrow works wonders. I do believe that Zamus takes an extra step (maybe two) before actually lashing out for her grab when you dashgrab, though. Her neutralB can give Ike headaches, as well.

Ike is one of Zamus's easiest matches, imho. He has very low mobility and his only quick approach falls victim to the stun gun (since the attack comes out at the very end, you can intercept him with it). As long as you bait out his moves and keep an eye out for SH b-airs when you're in the air approaching him, you should have very little trouble against him. The stun gun is his worst enemy, and while he has reach, he has a considerable amount of lag on most of his moves making it easy to hit him out of or avoid/shield them. His side+B, b-air and jab A are the three things you really need to look out for because they're fast. As long as you force him to act, you can beat him pretty easily just based off of your speed and range.

When going for the KO against Ike, be careful about up-airs when he's free falling (not tumbling) because his Eruption has super armor and it has decent knockback. If you're high up on the screen and he hits you with that, you could get star KOed at mid-low %. Trying to edge hog him is very difficult and must be timed perfectly, it's usually a better idea to intercept him from far away when recovering. Don't try to beat Aether if he's going to grab the ledge because you'll lose every time, unless you get behind him (but going below the stage when he can grab the ledge is very risky and you can get edge hogged this way) and b-air/f-air him. If he uses side+B as a recovery move, get in his way to see him plummet to his death.

When I face an ike, I know they will occasionally use quick draw.
When you see them starting it up, run up there and sheild, but stop half way and force them to use quick draw then grab them outta the sheild. Something they always fall for.

Also, you can stop them in the quick draw with the paralyzer, wait for them to launch and then fire a shot, and they will be stunned before they reach you.

You can also stop the quick draw with the forward B, apparently quick draw isnt quick enough.

Ike's smash attacks are slow, some ike users will probably charge their smash, so when they do wait for them to finish it then bolt towards them and get behind them quick or be at a safe distance and make your approch.

You can hit them with a forward B right after his Fsmash lands on the ground, then kick him in the air with a few aerials if you can manage it.

Kirby

ZSS is actually harder for Kirby to combo than most characters in the game. His only true combo gets you from 0 ~ 35 before you can jump out of it. That being said, this fight is still not easy. Around 90% ~ 100% his f-smash can and will kill you. From what I've seen, when you are in that area, Kirby users will try to fake you out until you do something that will let him connect with his f-smash...This move is also bigger than it looks so be wary. Make sure you do not recover predictably since his Dair can spike you and it starts pretty quickly.

When Kirby is at the peak of his Final Cutter (Up-B) at the point where the sword goes under him, he is vulnerable to any attack you want and you will not be punished for it. If he tries to recover from above, a spaced Bair and Uair will trade hits with his sword.

Link

To be honest, Link can be a difficult matchup when played by an intelligent person. Mainly you want to keep pressure on him so he can't breathe without getting kicked in the face by you. The issue is getting close to him and not getting eaten up by his quick reactionary moves like his up+b.

A very fun thing to do is Gale Riding. Now most of the time a Link will try to use his gale to his advantage, and most of the time it will gain him little more than mildly disorienting his opponent. But a charged up Dsmash, an over B, or even a Fsmash become much more mobile. Also when Gale Riding, fire a preemptive shot from your paralyzer. Generally you can time it so that you have a small amount of protection from a possible projectile fired by Link such as his arrows.

Also if you notice the Link not cooking his bombs, punish him for this. If he wants to give you a free projectile let him. Generally when it starts flashing red you have 3 seconds till it goes boom.

Lucario

I recently fought someone who I have to say was an immaculate Lucario player. I feel that this is a character who can throw Zamus off balance because not only does he have solid aerials that can combat Zamus' if he plays a fairly evasive and defensive game he'll actually end up ruining you. Either that or it's all in the approach.

Here's how I see it based on Lucario's damage.
1-80%=Low probability of killing a solid player unless you can back him into a corner, so to speak.
80-110%=Where you NEED to kill him. Medium probability.
110%+=Dear lord kill him before he hits even harder.

Your up aerial is your best bet of killing Lucario because of how light he is. HOWEVER approaching him properly is everything since he has equally nasty aerials, and remember the closer he is to dead the closer he is to killing you.

Just work on DI'ing out of the chain grab, but basically keep your distance. Side/Neutral B are your best bets to rack up damage. Do your best to fake him out in the air, and just do your best to kill him pre-110%. He's a pain in the ***, probably one of the better Zero Suit counters, and the closer you get him to death the closer he is to killing you.

Lucas

IMO, the hardest thing against a Lucas player is to approach. Since Lucas is a way better spammer than ZSS (no kidding), he can usually camp until you get to him. PK Fires really hamper ground approaches, have a better range than side B, are faster than the stun gun, and are fast enough to stop most dash attacks.

Also, his aerial game is pretty strong, with good priority and quick attacks. Pseudo-combos after launching him in the air are really prone to get stopped by his Dair, and I find following with U-smashes or Up-Bs to be a better choice.

Lucas' smash attacks are pretty strong, and except for the up smash, are fast and don't have much lag.

Lucas' up-smash is a double-edge move. I find myself dying a lot more to this move, but it's so slow when it misses it's almsot not even funny (but fortunate for us). Abuse this move whenever you can, and trick them to let them use it when they really shouldn't. It shouldn't work many times, but if the Lucas player refrains from using it it'S stil la good thing, since this and the f-smash are the kill move you need to look for. You need to be aware that shielding this move pushes you back A LOT and that dodging is usually not a very good idea (a lot of hit frames).

So yea, most of ZSS's strengths seems to be quite weakened in the Lucas matchup. Her speed, range, "combo" potential are all diminished. ZSS also tend to die to quite low percents in this matchup. Playing patiently and waiting for an opening is the key.

Oh and don't even try playing a Lucas on Smashville. It's like Mission Smash Impossible.

Luigi

Luigi is all about spacing, you outrange him with your side+b, and can cancel his projectile with your gun. Just don't get caught in his "fists of fury".

Marth

Marth can be a tough matchup, especially if he's aggressive with his side-B. The best counter that I've found has either been a down-B to try to go over his head or dodgerolling. If you time the dodgeroll right, you should get a Ftilt or a Dtilt to pop him up for aerial shenanigans.

My suggestion is to keep him ranged with Side B. Punish when necessary and take the defensive approach. If you go all out offense, you will get destroyed. Do what ever it take to get him in the air. From below, Marth doesn't have much and ZSS has alot when Marth is in the air. (Combo pillaring). Marth may air dodge before you can combo so that when you do mind games to combo Marth. (i.e. expect him to air dodge and DI then combo pillaring when you see an opening)

WATCH the tip of his blade.

If you do not watch it, you will get destroyed. You will last alot longer if you dodge the tip of his blade.You may have to slightly move toward him and take a hit close up just to avoid the tip in some situations. Keep out of his range at the tip of his attack and out range him.Use Side B smartly.

Don't use it up close too much as that is Marth's best attacks up close.Use it as long range defensive attack(Side B). Preferably, do that attack in a manner that is unpunishable and long range. Same with the throw. Be careful with it and do it at a range or when he whiffs maybe a f smash. Also be prepared to handle the SH Fairs with Marth.

Also WATCH the tip of his blade.

Marth has no projectile so it is safe to do retreating paralyzer shots and either force him to make an approach and punish it, or get a shot in and get him with a dash attack-uptilt-etc.
- You have more range than Marth so use that to your advantage mostly with the forward B.
-Learn to predict his f-smashes when you're at high percent, powershield them, and go in for a dash attack combo.
- You really don't want to get in too close unless you're almost sure you're going to get a hit in. Marth can destroy you around the forward B's blind spot area, and I especially hate the forward B there.
-Be extra cautious using grabs against Marth especially at high percents because you'll eat a tipper f-smash

try to figure out EXACTLY where his counter hits. Then just stay out of it's attack range and just use your F-aerial. It eats the counter and you hit him with the stronger attack. Also, timing your Down+B to fake him out can mess with him pretty decently. I know his counter lasts as my friend refers to it "the lunar cycle", but once you eat up his counter he's proper ****ed.

You can't hit him with the stronger attack but you can still eat his counter and miss the attack arc, it still gives you an opening to nail him in the face though.

Camp him until you create an opening with both retreating forward-Bs and paralyzer shots. You don't want him to get in close to you. Once you get a hit in, or at least have him shield at pretty close range, you should mostly just try to get him in the air. Once you do that, he is easily juggled. Use Forward B off the stage usually for edgeguarding. If he comes in from below, you can time a D-smash to hit him under the stage and stage spike him by running off and B-airing him.

1. Have you tried his neutral air? It has some range so there is a chance it might outrange his counter, which will leave him open.
2. Use the Down B. Use the jump within kicking range but don't execute the kick. Hopefully he will jump the gun and counter leaving him open.
3. All your bottoms are belong to us.
4. Use your Up Smash or Up Special attack.

Meta Knight

At the last two tournaments I went to, 3 out of my 4 bracket losses were to metaknights. IMO this is ZSS's worst matchup for a number of reasons.

The first thing I'd like to bring up is the normal advantage of range that ZSS has over lots of characters. There are two moves that allow this advantage, the side b and the gun. Metaknight has answers to both of these. Because of his ridiculous dash speed, dash attack and dash grab, he is able to punish the in-between time of the side b. even if you use techniques like b sticking. If you spam the gun at him, he is able to come in from above, or use his b attack on you.

That brings me to the next point I'd like to make, metaknight's b attack is imbalanced. Even with ranged moves, it's nearly impossible to interrupt or hit him out of it. If you shield the move, you may be able to punish the lag if and only if you have a full shield as soon as it's hitting you. Otherwise your shield will run out and you will be hit by the move. The best option zss has is to just run from this move. I really haven't come accross any other way to counter this move, and when I play good metaknights, it is spammed against me.

Next I'd like to talk about metaknight's punishablility. Lots of high level players have been exercising the new brawl feature of being able to act quickly without shield lag. This allows characters to do tilts or even fast smashes out of shield. Against metaknight, however, there is no lag time in between his attacks, and trying to punish him out of your shield will just end up in you eating a dsmash.

Finally, Metaknight's small size makes a lot of zss's moves very difficult to hit with. Since many of her moves are high powered with small hit boxes, it makes for a difficult time when you're trying to land one of these attacks on such a small target.

For the given reasons I feel that metaknight is ZSS's worst matchup.

MK is definitely one of Zamus's hardest matches, by far. You can side+B through both his side+B and neutral-B, but the smaller the stage, the harder it is to avoid his bullcrap. His inability to be comboed and RIDICULOUS priority with practically no lag on his moves makes him not only hard to punish, but hard to hit. His size only makes matters worse as it becomes even harder to land side+Bs since he's a small target and he can duck under several of her grounded moves. Sadly, all of the characters I play as (Zamus, Zelda, Link, and Lucario) suffer horrible matches against him due to speed and priority issues (in comparison with MK).

-First off, Down B is your best friend for getting out of Metas combos. Many believe this to be a bad match up, but I think it's only slightly in Metas favor, and this is one of the biggest reasons. He cannot accurately combo ZSS if you play smart and can predict a lot of his attacks. Down B right as he does his Up B is a nice tactic especially. Besides Down B you want to be airdodging a lot, but don't airdodge or down B predictably.

- Catch him with forward Bs when you have the spacing especially while he is in the air.

- Shoot paralyzer shots from a distance, but he can tornado through them. If he starts using the tornado a lot there are a couple things you can do to stop it, but they are situational. One thing you can do is grab him through the tornado Another is d smash the tornado, but that is much harder to time correctly. Both of these will only work if Meta is low enough to the ground at that point.

- I believe your B air BARELY outranges all of his aerials. With good spacing you can challenge him in the air...except for his up B.

- Up air is a good kill move against Meta. He is light, and you should have good opportunities to catch him in the air with it.

Olimar

Bairs shrug off Pikmin really well, and have little lag. Your Plasma Whip outranges all of Olimar's moves. Space well with Plasma Whip and stay out of grab range. Get him off the stage and then edgehog him.

Easiest thing I find against Olimar is to get under him in the air. He flounders big time in that position. But yeah, definitely stay out of grab range since he has quite a bit of range with those blue Pikmin and very little lag time. Also, if you have to, take a few hits from thrown Pikmin if you have to. Prioritize getting off white Pikmin and jabbing purple Pikmin. Shield works equally as well, but watch for grabs.

Peach

These are probably my 2 best characters so this part should be easy enough to write I hope haha. Everyone has their own Peach approach but for the most part you're going to be dealing most with glide tosses and auto-float combo's or just attacks.

Because ZSS's grab can snag opponents out of air, dealing with auto-float approachers shouldn't be a problem just keep your space and either grab or side b them. You will see MANY glide tossed turnips during your match (from more avid Peach players) so definitely be wary of those and waiting with your own way of handling them in that respect.

Also note when you do throw a Peach and plan to follow up this, against most characters is one of her most dangerous positions. Once Peach is thrown you will almost always see the Peach player auto-float waiting for a follow up so they can proceed with the Peach dair to nair combo then land with the tables turned as they are now the pursuer and you are the prey.

Change up your recovery game! Peach has very few kill moves, as such you will almost always be killed by a sweet spotted u-smash, side smash, or by auto-float chasing you off the stage. Be careful of auto-float pursuers as her fair is powerful so if you're already off the stage you're pretty screwed if you get hit. Her bair and nair are fairly fast and have decent range as well. Your best bet is to either trick the player and get around them back to the stage or take advantage of the fact Peach loses her float once hit and plan accordingly (don't forget she has another jump after the float though!). Some players may choose to spam turnips once you're off the stage though, each player is different just be ready for any or all of these tactics just in case.

In summary, ZSS should be victorious. She has range, KO moves, and easily counters most Peach tactics Watch out for auto-floats, glide tosses and the very rare toad counter. Keep your range and wait for them to slip up, or take the offensive and don't even give them a chance to pick one turnip. Those are the main things to remember and try in this match-up

Pikachu

Pikachu is small, fast, and can CG for a while. His fair traps you, and has very little after lag so he can hit you again. Thankfully Pikachu cannot kill very well. DI his d-smash holding UP and you will go flying to the side before it is done. Beware of high-up thunders around 70% and higher. Stun gun is a good way to deal with his QAC. (Quick-attack cancel)

>B has much more range than anything he has. Up-B can be cancelled out by his Dair, so don't be so quick to use it. Thunder-jolt can gimp your second jump making edgeguarding easy. Thankfully, Pikachu is very light, and dies at around 70% from a fresh >B, disregarding the fact that >B is usually never fresh (save when you respawn), and 80% or so from a big-height bair.

Pit

Pit's arrow spam can shut down Zamus pretty well, dunno if there's much she can do about it. Thank god for Luigi's Mansion counterpick. lol

You need to get in Pit's deadzone (the area somewhat close to him where he can't hit you with side or up arrows) by crawling, air dodging and/or shielding your way closer. It's a pain, but it can be done. He's not too bad once in melee range, just a pain from a distance.

I agree about Luigi's Mansion, though. It makes is much easier to deal with projectile spammers.

Snake

Snake players can be pretty annoying with the c4 and mines around the stage. However besides the fast jab attacks he deals, everything else leaves him waiting for punishment.

Against newer or just spammer players once they side b it opens up almost unlimited combo opportunities. Snake's aerials are just no where near as good as ZSS's and when they do get you to a high percent there's not much to do as long as you're smart enough to be wary of the mine/c4 since his smash attacks are so slow.

You really have no best bet in this match-up, as in whether you're the defensive or offensive type you should be able to pull off a win if you aren't too overconfident. Some may disagree but I just either haven't seen very good Snake players or he just really does not stand the slimmest of chances against ZSS.

In summary watch for any traps, keep good spacing and hope for a little side b spam action from them and follow up, also because of the "catching the cypher" you can play it safe and not chase them off the stage.

I'm going to add here that Snake has a bit better chance against Zamus than Tsen gives him here. His dash attack is faster than, and outprioritizes Plasma Whip, it also approches faster than you can run, and ends up on the other end of your shield, so it's very difficult to punish. Snake can also follow up with a dtilt, which goes under Zamus' grab, if he finishes the attack in front of Zamus.

Snake also destroys Zamus in the close up game, so we can see a lot of Snakes closing in on Zamus as fast as possible. This is also a problem in that if you try to shield ftilt, you can still get your shield broken fairly easily, and if that happens, then it's a rocket in your face.

That said, it's not so bad. Snake is relatively easy to combo, and he has a lot of trouble getting into Zamus' dead zone at about a 37 to 45 degree angle in front of and behind her, and if he tries, he's slow enough in the air that you can generally avoid him. And like Tsen said, if he recovers too close to the stage, grab him out of the air. If he's far enough out, you may not even take damage from cypher, and you can just sit on the edge until he escapes.

I've found that a properly utilized down B can make a Snake's charge useless. If you start out facing Snake, as he charges, Down+B to your back and dependent on what is the best direction to aim your kick you generally gain solid ground on Snake using this.
I find it useful to use this mainly because snakes tend to charge at about the half distance of the move so generally.

Sonic

t is actually a pretty awkward match up and I've had some trouble with him, but me and Wes (top Sonic player) usually go about even I think. I basically try to keep him at bay by retreating a lot, but hes insanely fast. His lack of priority isn't really that big of a deal against ZSS, because some of her priority is even worse. What seems to work the best is spacing good paralyzer shots in because it breaks his B moves and creates an opening, and then you can follow up with something such as a dash attack combo. The thing that annoys me a lot vs. Sonic is that his d air seems to even break your Up-B, so he messes up your aerial game a lot.

Toon Link

basically don't give him space. It might sound like the wrong thing to do, but if you play very fast and aggressive and get in his face a lot you can destroy him. A good thing to know is that you can Up-B through his D-air.

h yes, Up-bing through his D-Air is a great move, also catching him with a forward B RIGHT after he throws his boomering which will useully result in an arrow after the boomerang throw.
Though the armor part's seem almost useless as his sheild blocks them if you try to start the match off with throwing the armor parts at him. So basicly just hold on to a part get behind him and just throw them at him though chances are he will get to your other two peices if you don't dispose of them.

I find this interesting about TLoonks D-air, there is harmless wind that pushing you away from him a short distance, I never thought of it until now, but it seems he is setting us up for one of Zs Samus's moves, I better go make sure I am right.

Wolf

As for me, I think Wolf has an advantage against Zamus. He's got crazy reach, insane priority, auto canceling aerials (fair and bair) and has a nasty laser. I find it incredibly difficult to approach him, it's hard to make him approach you (and when he does, auto cancel aerials make it near impossible to punish). The only redeeming factor is that his recovery does not do well on any stage where you can accidentally get underneath it.

Overall, I'd say he's definitely got an advantage Though he's not unbeatable, lesser skilled players can get away with crap and make you work really hard to win.


A few more things to add about Wolf. I was playing against my friend and taught him how to give Zamus a hard time so I could practice trying to get around it. Well, where I used to cream him regardless of who he played (even Wolf), I have a REALLY hard time against his Wolf now and he spent about 10 minutes learning the tactics I taught him (it's really easy to give her a hard time). This helped me a lot because we spent some time going over how to make approaches hard for Zamus so I could practice closing in and find ways around the laser and f-smash.

I've noticed that SHs to f-airs can help you get around his laser camping. Double jumps help as well. His f-air isn't as dangerous as his b-air (which outreaches and outprioritizes Zamus's b-air).

One thing that's pretty apparent is how good is f-smash is. He can literally chain deep f-smashes repeatedly (going back and forth) and he can get a good 3-4 reps on it before it's escapable (not sure of the %). It also is pretty **** safe on block, and has reach in front of him as he's moving forward. However, if he whiffs, it's relatively easy to punish him, so you'll want to try to stay just out of range of the f-smash to bait him into trying to max range it. If he's close, you can jab him out of the first few hits of his f-smash, if he's at max range for the f-smash don't try it. F-tilt actually ties with Wolf's f-smash and since her f-tilt is considered weaker, it recovers faster, allowing you to punish him with a f-tilt for tripping or up-tilt for juggling. It's a bit risky and requires good timing to f-tilt it, because if you miss you'll get a good 15-40% damage on you (based on how he follows it up, if at all).

Wolf is not a very mobile character, so getting him into the air above you is KEY to beating him. Every time I got him into the air, I was able to combo him for about 60-80% damage (on top of whatever he already had) because his air mobility is very poor and his d-air is laggy. With his weight and falling speed, you can link up-airs into one another and can hit him even if he air dodges (if you time and space your attacks correctly). You can also beat out any of his air moves if you get in with an f-air before he can pull them out, but if you see him already performing one, he'll beat you 100% of the time. Throwing out your f-air against him is great, especially throwing the first kick out a bit early (as it can catch him if he tries to throw out an air attack at you), it also seems to auto cancel (I'm not 100% sure, but it has very little lag or finishes right after the 2nd kick) because he had a very hard time punishing me when I'd land from f-airs.

Refrain from using side+B when he has his gun out. Once you've gotten him into melee combat, space him and get your side+B's and juggles on him.

Wolf's laser is really tough to get around. You basically have to predict if he's going to do it standing on the ground or in the air. If he's goes aerial, you crawl, if he standing lasers, you jump. He can only use his blaster so often, so you basically have to watch him and react to every thing he does.

Zelda

Considering that she's been given a bit of a boost in both Nayru's love and din's fire, that would neutralize the paralyzer tactic. However, some of her moves take time to do. One in particular would be her foward A, which I take as an opportunity to counter with either flip jump or Side B. Also, in the air, she's a bit more of a threat. But if her thunder kick misses, she's done for, which I punish with F air and B air. But try not to stay in the air as her UP A and her uair have good counters to them. During din's fire though, she's left open for a few seconds, so as long as it's dodged and flip jumped over, it can be brought down.

Garde(Zelda) = As for Zelda, I used to think she was pretty easy to beat, until I spent time learning how to play her (she is my secondary). Her jab will beat out Zamus' like 95% of the time so getting in her jab range is a bad idea. Her up-smash is almost too good, imho, and all of her smashes in general have a lot less lag on them than I had originally thought (due to the fact that up- and f-smash have persisting multi-hit properties while her d-smash is just fast). Din's Fire, when used properly, can give Zamus (or any other character without a reliable projectile) a hard time approaching, but it can't stop approaches altogether. Zamus outreaches Zelda by a considerable amount via the side+B, and that is one key aspect you MUST focus on in order to beat her. Use it to make an opening, we know the sweet spot reach better than she does, and there is a gray area where she might use Din's Fire and you can hit her, you cannot hesitate.

Zelda's dash attack is incredible in terms of priority, but if you shield it she's screwed. Keep an eye out for it when you have the chance to dash attack while she is in a neutral position (i.e. not in hitstun and on the ground). Zelda's best spots to be are far away and up in your face while on the ground, so make sure to keep pressure on her from a safe distance for Zamus. Zelda's n-air is fast and high priority, and her SH is low enough so that she can hit you with it (if she times it properly, it will beat out all your air moves).

The area above Zelda is a bad place to be, as she can KO Bowser at 110% via up-air (no DI, haven't tested with). It's a disjointed hitbox and any good Zelda will be familiar with the timing to properly space this, so your chance of winning with any move is probably around 5-10% (better not to take the risk as failure often results in you being star KOed). Her dash canceled up-smash is ridiculous as well, and it sucks people in for the last hit, which can also kill at relatively low %, it has a long duration, but the hitboxes are active for almost the entire duration, making it pretty hard to do anything if you shielded (you have a chance of getting shield poked if you didn't perfect shield or your shield wasn't full).

To sum things up, you're going to be highly reliant on side+B for this match. Her f-air and b-air are probably the least of your worries as they are relatively slow and has other KO options. Since she has horrible DI and her recovery move is fairly difficult to use for grabbing onto ledges, getting her off stage is something you should aim for. Your own side+B can lead into dash attacks and then juggles, which will help you build damage, particularly due to the fact that her DI and mobility in general are poor. Don't fight the priority battle against her, because more often than not, you will lose, instead toy around with your reach advantage and force her to stop using Din's Fire just by positioning yourself in a place where she can't use it safely. Make openings when she's trying to play keep away and continue into juggles, as she's very helpless while airborne.

Also, her d-smash punishes rollers, so be careful about rolling toward her as it comes out quick,is hard to punish, and often knocks opponents far enough away so she can safely use Din's Fire again.

Misc. Info

Short Hop Grabs

So my friend and I did a little testing today about Zamus grab and apparently Zamus can grab some opponents out of their short hops. Sadly only four charters were found to be able to be grabbed at their max height.
Kirby
Meta knight
Snake
Jiggly puff.

The lower the hop the higher probability i'd think she would be able to grab them thus (without testing mind you) i'd speculate you should be able to grab people like Bowser along with the more heavy characters also chars such as TL.

Thanks to our current contributors:

Bouse
CyanCyde
Cynan Machae
DarkShadowRage
DeliciousCake
FoolyCoolyGamer
Garde
James Sparrow
Johnthegalactic
k4polo
Nicholas.Riddle
oze6000
Pgh-M@v-Pgh
Ph00tbag
ShardZ
Snakeee
Tristan Win
Tsen

 

[DarkShadowRage]

What about my Dsmash Chain thread? >_>

 

[Garde]

I don't see how that's relevant, Shadow.

As for me, I think Wolf has an advantage against Zamus. He's got crazy reach, insane priority, auto canceling aerials (fair and bair) and has a nasty laser. I find it incredibly difficult to approach him, it's hard to make him approach you (and when he does, auto cancel aerials make it near impossible to punish). The only redeeming factor is that his recovery does not do well on any stage where you can accidentally get underneath it.

Overall, I'd say he's definitely got an advantage Though he's not unbeatable, lesser skilled players can get away with crap and make you work really hard to win. I'd appreciate advice for this matchup to make it an easier fight, preferably from someone who has fought against a skilled Wolf player.

 

[ShardZ]

Pit's arrow spam can shut down Zamus pretty well, dunno if there's much she can do about it. Thank god for Luigi's Mansion counterpick. lol

 

[Garde]

You need to get in Pit's deadzone (the area somewhat close to him where he can't hit you with side or up arrows) by crawling, air dodging and/or shielding your way closer. It's a pain, but it can be done. He's not too bad once in melee range, just a pain from a distance.

I agree about Luigi's Mansion, though. It makes is much easier to deal with projectile spammers.

 

[CyanCyde]

Here's what I've noticed from my experiences. Note that I'm nowhere near an expert either with Zamus or with Brawl in general, so some of my observations could be way off.

--vs. Ganondorf: Basically, if you can make him miss once, you can really punish him. He's slow, and for such a big guy, he's actually kind of floaty, so once you get him airborne, you can keep him up for a very long time with USmash and UAir, throwing in FAirs and BAirs for more damage. This general idea can be applied (with adjustments, of course) to the other fatties, as well. It just seems to me like Ganon is laggier than DK and Bowser, making him a little easier to punish.

--vs. Ike: Since Zamus' DashA is such a good combo starter, Ike can be tempted into trying to DownB to counter it. If you can get him into that, dashgrabbing into a DThrow works wonders. I do believe that Zamus takes an extra step (maybe two) before actually lashing out for her grab when you dashgrab, though. Her neutralB can give Ike headaches, as well.

--vs. Marth: Marth can be a tough matchup, especially if he's aggressive with his side-B. The best counter that I've found has either been a down-B to try to go over his head or dodgerolling. If you time the dodgeroll right, you should get a Ftilt or a Dtilt to pop him up for aerial shenanigans.

 

[Garde]

--Against Ganon, you have to be really careful about edge guarding him, as he might do a SD side+B to take you with him. You can bait it, but you're risking death if you screw up. Also, if you're juggling him and at high %, be careful of his down+B as it has a good chance of trading hits with up-air when he's in the magnifying glass and can star KO you at relatively low %.

You're right that if you make him whiff a move, he's usually punishable. Stun gun can intercept his side+B, but his grounded down+B will often beat it. Both are pretty good approaches for him and recover relatively quickly (or at least can put him far enough away that it's hard to punish him). Play the spacing game and bait attacks, be careful of his dash attack.

You'd think that because he's slow, he can't punish very well, but since Zamus does not have auto cancel moves, he has plenty of time to punish. He also has 3 moves that help him close distance fast, the down+B, side+B, and dash attack (which has reaches beyond his shoulder). All of them set up into other attacks, and he can KO at pretty low %, so as long as you don't leave yourself vulnerable with laggy moves (whiffed f-smash, d-air, grab, etc.), you should be okay.



--Ike is one of Zamus's easiest matches, imho. He has very low mobility and his only quick approach falls victim to the stun gun (since the attack comes out at the very end, you can intercept him with it). As long as you bait out his moves and keep an eye out for SH b-airs when you're in the air approaching him, you should have very little trouble against him. The stun gun is his worst enemy, and while he has reach, he has a considerable amount of lag on most of his moves making it easy to hit him out of or avoid/shield them. His side+B, b-air and jab A are the three things you really need to look out for because they're fast. As long as you force him to act, you can beat him pretty easily just based off of your speed and range.

When going for the KO against Ike, be careful about up-airs when he's free falling (not tumbling) because his Eruption has super armor and it has decent knockback. If you're high up on the screen and he hits you with that, you could get star KOed at mid-low %. Trying to edge hog him is very difficult and must be timed perfectly, it's usually a better idea to intercept him from far away when recovering. Don't try to beat Aether if he's going to grab the ledge because you'll lose every time, unless you get behind him (but going below the stage when he can grab the ledge is very risky and you can get edge hogged this way) and b-air/f-air him. If he uses side+B as a recovery move, get in his way to see him plummet to his death.

 

[Garde]

Sorry for the double post.

A few more things to add about Wolf. I was playing against my friend and taught him how to give Zamus a hard time so I could practice trying to get around it. Well, where I used to cream him regardless of who he played (even Wolf), I have a REALLY hard time against his Wolf now and he spent about 10 minutes learning the tactics I taught him (it's really easy to give her a hard time). This helped me a lot because we spent some time going over how to make approaches hard for Zamus so I could practice closing in and find ways around the laser and f-smash.

I've noticed that SHs to f-airs can help you get around his laser camping. Double jumps help as well. His f-air isn't as dangerous as his b-air (which outreaches and outprioritizes Zamus's b-air).

One thing that's pretty apparent is how good is f-smash is. He can literally chain deep f-smashes repeatedly (going back and forth) and he can get a good 3-4 reps on it before it's escapable (not sure of the %). It also is pretty **** safe on block, and has reach in front of him as he's moving forward. However, if he whiffs, it's relatively easy to punish him, so you'll want to try to stay just out of range of the f-smash to bait him into trying to max range it. If he's close, you can jab him out of the first few hits of his f-smash, if he's at max range for the f-smash don't try it. F-tilt actually ties with Wolf's f-smash and since her f-tilt is considered weaker, it recovers faster, allowing you to punish him with a f-tilt for tripping or up-tilt for juggling. It's a bit risky and requires good timing to f-tilt it, because if you miss you'll get a good 15-40% damage on you (based on how he follows it up, if at all).

Wolf is not a very mobile character, so getting him into the air above you is KEY to beating him. Every time I got him into the air, I was able to combo him for about 60-80% damage (on top of whatever he already had) because his air mobility is very poor and his d-air is laggy. With his weight and falling speed, you can link up-airs into one another and can hit him even if he air dodges (if you time and space your attacks correctly). You can also beat out any of his air moves if you get in with an f-air before he can pull them out, but if you see him already performing one, he'll beat you 100% of the time. Throwing out your f-air against him is great, especially throwing the first kick out a bit early (as it can catch him if he tries to throw out an air attack at you), it also seems to auto cancel (I'm not 100% sure, but it has very little lag or finishes right after the 2nd kick) because he had a very hard time punishing me when I'd land from f-airs.

Refrain from using side+B when he has his gun out. Once you've gotten him into melee combat, space him and get your side+B's and juggles on him.

 

[FoolyCoolyGamer]

Not entirely sure if this tidbit is good, but I want to post something.

v.s Zelda

Considering that she's been given a bit of a boost in both Nayru's love and din's fire, that would neutralize the paralyzer tactic. However, some of her moves take time to do. One in particular would be her foward A, which I take as an opportunity to counter with either flip jump or Side B. Also, in the air, she's a bit more of a threat. But if her thunder kick misses, she's done for, which I punish with F air and B air. But try not to stay in the air as her UP A and her uair have good counters to them. During din's fire though, she's left open for a few seconds, so as long as it's dodged and flip jumped over, it can be brought down.

 

[k4polo]

Vs. Dedede

My opinion though. DeDeDe. ZSS has an advantage over DDD because she is faster,out ranges dedede(side B, I personally think jumping side B is useful), Dedede relies on an up close game besides the waddle dees. DDD is a good matchup for marth since he relies on being close.

But ZSS is fast and DDD is slow, and side B out ranges his F-tilt. Another reason she has an advantage is because ZSS cannot be chain throw by DDD, if you DI properly then it will fail after the first attempt. This limits DDD options for offense(Or rather shield grabs)
Because of this, you can take more risk up close as you may be block and thrown but not chain throwed.

In summary
1.She outranges DDD
2.She is faster
3. She can't be chain throwed by DDD(this is probably the biggest issue)

Against DDD

Out range him with side B, Wavebounce Side B, and short hops side B, and short hop landing side B. Throw him when he whiff an attack(F-tilt a good attack to capitalize on a throw if they whiff).Remember she has the longest throw in the game with the dashing shield grab. Space DDD out with Side B and stun gun and punish when he whiffs. You can also take some risks when you are up close since he can't chain throw you. Be careful of his U tilt as well.

Vs. Marth

Marth has an advantage over ZSS(Well he has an advantage over alot of ppl), because of his quick safe and outprioritizing attacks. SH Fair with Marth is hard to deal with if you are ZSS. But the advantage is about 6:4 so ZSS has a good chance as she outranges marth. But Marth is fast as well and can avoid her projectiles and out prioritize her attacks and space her out up close with his sword. In other words, it is a slight advantage.

Against Marth

My suggestion is to keep him ranged with Side B. Punish when necessary and take the defensive approach. If you go all out offense, you will get destroyed. Do what ever it take to get him in the air. From below, Marth doesn't have much and ZSS has alot when Marth is in the air. (Combo pillaring). Marth may air dodge before you can combo so that when you do mind games to combo Marth. (i.e. expect him to air dodge and DI then combo pillaring when you see an opening)

WATCH the tip of his blade.

If you do not watch it, you will get destroyed. You will last alot longer if you dodge the tip of his blade.You may have to slightly move toward him and take a hit close up just to avoid the tip in some situations. Keep out of his range at the tip of his attack and out range him.Use Side B smartly.

Don't use it up close too much as that is Marth's best attacks up close.Use it as long range defensive attack(Side B). Preferably, do that attack in a manner that is unpunishable and long range. Same with the throw. Be careful with it and do it at a range or when he whiffs maybe a f smash. Also be prepared to handle the SH Fairs with Marth.

Also WATCH the tip of his blade.

Also don't worry. ZSS is tourney level Material.

I hope this helps everyone.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

 

[Ørion]

Really good information so far Thanks for contributing!

 

[Tsen]

Just to add some opinionated fuel to the fire. I'll add more after I get some sleep.

ZSS vs. Snake - Snake players can be pretty annoying with the c4 and mines around the stage. However besides the fast jab attacks he deals, everything else leaves him waiting for punishment.

Against newer or just spammer players once they side b it opens up almost unlimited combo opportunities. Snake's aerials are just no where near as good as ZSS's and when they do get you to a high percent there's not much to do as long as you're smart enough to be wary of the mine/c4 since his smash attacks are so slow.

You really have no best bet in this match-up, as in whether you're the defensive or offensive type you should be able to pull off a win if you aren't too overconfident. Some may disagree but I just either haven't seen very good Snake players or he just really does not stand the slimmest of chances against ZSS.

In summary watch for any traps, keep good spacing and hope for a little side b spam action from them and follow up, also because of the "catching the cypher" you can play it safe and not chase them off the stage.



ZSS vs. Peach - These are probably my 2 best characters so this part should be easy enough to write I hope haha. Everyone has their own Peach approach but for the most part you're going to be dealing most with glide tosses and auto-float combo's.

Because ZSS's grab can snag opponents out of air, dealing with auto-float approachers shouldn't be a problem just keep your space and either grab or side b them. You will see MANY glide tossed turnips during your match (from more avid Peach players) so definitely be wary of those and waiting with your own way of handling them in that respect.

Also note when you do throw a Peach and plan to follow up this, against most characters, is one of her most dangerous positions. Once Peach is thrown you will almost always see the Peach player auto-float waiting for a follow up so they can proceed with the Peach dair to nair combo then land with the tables turned as they are now the pursuer and you are the prey.

The tilt-a-whirl and grab game. Another thing to watch for with Peach's are her tilt's.They are really decent moves and also have a fair amount of combo potential. You might also want to watch out for the grab game, though you may not see it too often, at low percent's with Peach I am able to pull off d-throw to f-tilt to u-tilt to short hop fair. That little combo sends your percentage soaring and should be avoided at any cost. When or if the Peach d-throws it will send you behind her in which she would or rather should follow with a reverse f-tilt to u-tilt etc. I'm not totally sure how to get out of if myself but I suggest your best bet is to down b ASAP in the opposite direction she threw you. Other than that your only options are trying to use your jump immediately after the throw or to spam air dodge while DI'ing away and hope you don't get hit.

Change up your recovery game! Peach has very few kill moves, as such you will almost always be killed by a sweet spotted u-smash, side smash, or by auto-float chasing you off the stage. Be careful of auto-float pursuers as her fair is powerful so if you're already off the stage you're pretty screwed if you get hit. Her bair and nair are fairly fast and have decent range as well. Your best bet is to either trick the player and get around them back to the stage or take advantage of the fact Peach loses her float once hit and plan accordingly (don't forget she has another jump after the float though!). Some players may choose to spam turnips once you're off the stage though, each player is different just be ready for any or all of these tactics just in case.

In summary, ZSS should be victorious. She has range, KO moves, and easily counters most Peach tactics Watch out for auto-floats, glide tosses and the very rare toad counter. Keep your range and wait for them to slip up, or take the offensive and don't even give them a chance to pick one turnip. Those are the main things to remember and try in this match-up



ZSS vs. Falco - Falco is an annoying little bird no matter how you look at it. I feel in this match-up Falco has a fair advantage in most situations. Not too huge but he is most definitely a threat and should be treated accordingly.

Falco has SHDL/SHTL along with the chain grab to dash attack DLX hit-cancel combo which will eat a good 50% or more chunk out of your health. He also has a decent speed, a good bair and dair, a deceptively big range on his side smash (along with it hitting above and slightly behind) and if you aren't careful can laserlock you into a controller throwing fit!

In this match-up make the best use of your armor in the beginning to rack up quick damage and be on an equal or greater level when and if the Falco chain grab combo's you. Be wary but aggressive, once you're at 50% the chain grab is no longer a threat and the Falco will change their approach, so if they're the type don't let them spam lasers from the other side of the stage.

Give him a taste of his own medicine! Sure Falco chain grab combo's are annoying, BUT we ZSS players also have something in our possession of similar value. That's right the chain d-smash. Use this baby to the best advantage you can and don't feel cheap when you use it. Thanks to Falco's falling nature you can easily rack up anywhere from 40-80+ % with just the d-smash itself which can be followed by a f-smash to bair for an easy kill. Sure it may be a bit hard to start off the combo but the Falco should be having the same bit of trouble with the grab, when you see him coming in for the grab turn the tables and chain him like the sexy w4ore ZSS is.

Stages. This is a very big factor in the match-up as well. Any kind of long flat stage such as FD and Bridge of Eldin are a definite no no in your favor. Besides the fact the Falco can be cheap and chain grab you off the edge of the stage for a quick death on BoE stages that are long work in favor of chain grabs and laser spams. If able try and avoid FD, BoE, Smashville, and Yoshi's Island. Try places with platforms, Battlefield has been my best stage in this match-up by far but it's all up to what you're comfortable with.

"Shine time". Falco's reflector is also an annoying little device in his arsenal. It goes through walls, can punish short hop neutral b's, make you smash yourself in the face with your own armor and is an overall good defense against dash attackers as well as a decent edge guard tool. Since you have to be pretty offensive against Falco's this can throw a wrench in the machine known as your game plan. When you start off it's up to you if you really want to spam armor throw, just be ready for the repercussions if the player knows your plan. Don't be afraid, just cautious of this fact when facing down this foe.

In summary ZSS seems to have a pretty decent sized disadvantage in this match-up and it might come down to stage advantages whether you end up a winner or loser. Keep into account the chain throws, lasers, the reflector, and his overbearing annoying accent and you might just able to turn the tables to make this into an easy face-off for you.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

let me say i think you underestimate zelda first her forward smash is not that slow and not that easy to punish zss's side b might work but if you try flipping you are in for a world of upsmash pain. Also you got her air game wrong yes her fair and bair are used in certain siguations but since its hard to sweet spot zelda in the air will be using her nair or up-air alot as well (her nair has very good priority). Lastly yes she is open at the end of din's fire but a good zelda wont use it when you are close enough to get to them unless they are useing it for mind games (ex using it then expolding it right away to try to get you to come at them so they can smash you).

I have not played enough good zss's to say who would win this fight but i just feel you got how zelda plays wrong. Also no mention of zelda's d-smash which is a very good and fast move that sends people at very bad angles for them.

 

[Tsen]

*sigh* here we go with the mainers coming in with opinions. Yes din's fire is considered a distraction to get the opponent to move how you want, either they take the 13% ish damage or they air dodge into an up smash whether it be standing or hyphened. Her fair when not sweetspotted is indeed easily punished by ZSS fairs or bairs since there is very little to no knockback and stun time on the move. Her f-smash is a tad bit slow imo and can be punished with side b, f-smash, dash grabbing (or just a grab), and dash attack if you can time it right. If you insist on doing a down b over her head i'm not sure which would win as I have never been brave enough to try myself since there are better options however use your judgment on whether or not to take a chance with it.

In his defense he said he wasn't sure if it was good he just wanted to post, leave our people alone and troll the zelda forums plz kthnx

 

[Emblem Lord]

DAMMIT!!

This thread is so ****ing pro with all you intellectual ZSS players helping out the match-up thread.

I wish the Marth boards was like this. Instead I gotta constantly defend myself and why I think a match-up is advantage, disadvantage or neutral for Marth.

I'm jealous of the unity of the ZSS community.

Good **** to you guys.

 

[teh_w0lf]

Any suggestions on what to do against a Lucario??

Incessant aura balls and ridiculous hit boxes aside...I just cant seem to get close. The guy I play against relies on a game centered around grabbing...and he's infuriatingly good at it...every approach I've used gets shield grabbed except the >B including aerials plucked out of the air. Dash attacks don't work (assuming I'm not stopped by an aura ball) as they just get perfect shielded and grabbed. I can't NOT approach as he wins the projectile game...what can you do?

 

[Tsen]

*Note don't use in the main post this is not an official strategy just bits of advice. If a full strat is needed please PM me and I shall contribute such*

As far as your troubles with this specific player goes, having not played him myself I can only give you certain bits of advice I THINK should work.

First of all not much you can do about the spheroids except not giving him a chance to charge them which seems a bit difficult in your case since he's a grab w4ore. Change up your game a bit if he gets too comfortable with your dash attacks switch to dash grabs or hyphen smashing. If he shields the grab of course will catch him and if you hyphen smash you may get lucky and he'll release his shield a bit early to grab thus getting hit by the whip.

Try not you rely on uair as much since Lucario's dair is amazingly good. Instead if you're on a level with platforms, or you do get him in the air above you and you know he's going to dair simply change up your gameplay again and instead of doing a uair and getting owned by his dair use your up b to pull him down then drop a dair of your own onto his skull.

Next comes the same thing to keep in mind when facing all projectile spammers, the stage. Pick something he won't or shouldn't have the advantage on, i.e. Luigi's mansion etc. but it also has to be a stage you're used to and won't mess up your metagame.

That's about all I can give you for now without knowing more info on the player and without making a general strat against Lucario.

 

[teh_w0lf]

*Note don't use in the main post this is not an official strategy just bits of advice. If a full strat is needed please PM me and I shall contribute such*

As far as your troubles with this specific player goes, having not played him myself I can only give you certain bits of advice I THINK should work.

First of all not much you can do about the spheroids except not giving him a chance to charge them which seems a bit difficult in your case since he's a grab w4ore. Change up your game a bit if he gets too comfortable with your dash attacks switch to dash grabs or hyphen smashing. If he shields the grab of course will catch him and if you hyphen smash you may get lucky and he'll release his shield a bit early to grab thus getting hit by the whip.

Try not you rely on uair as much since Lucario's dair is amazingly good. Instead if you're on a level with platforms, or you do get him in the air above you and you know he's going to dair simply change up your gameplay again and instead of doing a uair and getting owned by his dair use your up b to pull him down then drop a dair of your own onto his skull.

Next comes the same thing to keep in mind when facing all projectile spammers, the stage.
Pick something he won't or shouldn't have the advantage on, i.e. Luigi's mansion etc. but it also has to be a stage you're used to and won't mess up your metagame.

That's about all I can give you for now without knowing more info on the player and without making a general strat against Lucario.

thanks...I realize this isn't a "official" stategy but as it stands there isn't anywhere to really talk about character match-ups so the response is greatly appreciated

surprisingly though... the mansion only makes it worse due to camping under the solid platforms...remove the platforms = remove the walls = instant FD

...off to kill blue skunk

 

[Tsen]

If you're still having trouble let me know, and if you can try to record a video against the player and i'll see what I can do to help. Until then please continue to improve your ZSS your questions and criticism are always appreciated and maybe soon upon request you may find an official Lucario strat by one of us, or you may create one of your own. Best of luck. -Tsen/Kaze

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i was not trolling i was trying to help by saying how i think a zelda would fight and since i am a zelda main i think that it would of helped.
Also i did not say zss would not win or that zelda wins easily idk who has the advantage in this fight i was trying to help and i don't think what i said was bias i am a little upset that you think just b/c i main zelda i am saying she can't lose or something like that' i understand bias like that happen on these boards but i think i was being fair. and like you said the other guy was not sure about how good his post was so i thought i would help out with that.

Also here is one more thing that might hurt zss if you want to listen, her recovery being tether bound might make her easy to din's her while she is off the edge

I did not say that you could not punish zelda when she is using f-smash or din's. i even said your side B would work and yes your f-smash would most likely work as well b/c of the reach i am sure zss has many good moves and i am sorry for trying to help you with thread with my zelda knowledge

 

[Tsen]

let me say i think you underestimate zelda first her forward smash is not that slow and not that easy to punish zss's side b might work but if you try flipping you are in for a world of upsmash pain. Also you got her air game wrong yes her fair and bair are used in certain siguations but since its hard to sweet spot zelda in the air will be using her nair or up-air alot as well (her nair has very good priority).

I have not played enough good zss's to say who would win this fight but i just feel you got how zelda plays wrong.

You pretty much single-handedly dissed his whole post and to deny such is nothing more than trying to justify your actions as not trolling. You said it's not that slow and side b might work. Also your comment of

i am sorry for trying to help you with thread with my zelda knowledge

only convinces me more of your egotistical trollish nature. GG

And on a side note we can use other moves than tether to recover so don't worry about it, you just worry about not showing yourself on the ZSS forum anymore, your kind isn't welcome here. That is all

 

[James Sparrow]

At the last two tournaments I went to, 3 out of my 4 bracket losses were to metaknights. IMO this is ZSS's worst matchup for a number of reasons.

The first thing I'd like to bring up is the normal advantage of range that ZSS has over lots of characters. There are two moves that allow this advantage, the side b and the gun. Metaknight has answers to both of these. Because of his ridiculous dash speed, dash attack and dash grab, he is able to punish the in-between time of the side b. even if you use techniques like b sticking. If you spam the gun at him, he is able to come in from above, or use his b attack on you.

That brings me to the next point I'd like to make, metaknight's b attack is imbalanced. Even with ranged moves, it's nearly impossible to interrupt or hit him out of it. If you shield the move, you may be able to punish the lag if and only if you have a full shield as soon as it's hitting you. Otherwise your shield will run out and you will be hit by the move. The best option zss has is to just run from this move. I really haven't come accross any other way to counter this move, and when I play good metaknights, it is spammed against me.

Next I'd like to talk about metaknight's punishablility. Lots of high level players have been exercising the new brawl feature of being able to act quickly without shield lag. This allows characters to do tilts or even fast smashes out of shield. Against metaknight, however, there is no lag time in between his attacks, and trying to punish him out of your shield will just end up in you eating a dsmash.

Finally, Metaknight's small size makes a lot of zss's moves very difficult to hit with. Since many of her moves are high powered with small hit boxes, it makes for a difficult time when you're trying to land one of these attacks on such a small target.

For the given reasons I feel that metaknight is ZSS's worst matchup.

 

[ph00tbag]

I'm going to add here that Snake has a bit better chance against Zamus than Tsen gives him here. His dash attack is faster than, and outprioritizes Plasma Whip, it also approches faster than you can run, and ends up on the other end of your shield, so it's very difficult to punish. Snake can also follow up with a dtilt, which goes under Zamus' grab, if he finishes the attack in front of Zamus.

Snake also destroys Zamus in the close up game, so we can see a lot of Snakes closing in on Zamus as fast as possible. This is also a problem in that if you try to shield ftilt, you can still get your shield broken fairly easily, and if that happens, then it's a rocket in your face.

That said, it's not so bad. Snake is relatively easy to combo, and he has a lot of trouble getting into Zamus' dead zone at about a 37 to 45 degree angle in front of and behind her, and if he tries, he's slow enough in the air that you can generally avoid him. And like Tsen said, if he recovers too close to the stage, grab him out of the air. If he's far enough out, you may not even take damage from cypher, and you can just sit on the edge until he escapes.

Also: I agree 100% with Sparrow's assessment of the MK matchup. If you space just right against >B and B, you might be able to knock him out of them with Plasma Whip, but that's not going to happen every time. MK is impossible to combo, or even to punish, so basically, he's just going to **** you. Pick Luigi or DK if you want to beat MK, in my experience.

 

[Tsen]

Snake f-tilt > all, less wtf?!? and more lol fail, plz

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I don't think what i said was an insult to that persons post and if it was he can ether post here that they think it was or pm me and i will apoligize b/c i did not mean to say any thing to insult him
i said side B might work b/c i did not know for sure if it will b/c like i've said i have not played any good zss meaning idk for sure what works and what does not.
Also the f-smash i said is not that slow b/c i have read other threads on diffrent character board were poeple said (paraprhase coming up) "her forward smash just happens then is just gone so be careful while approaching (meaning they think it is fast)(sorry i can't tell you were i read that since it was a while ago) I am sorry if for some reason you think i insulted the guy but all i did was disagreed with him its not like i called him a name or said he was dumb.

Lastly if you think it was wrong for me in my post just to say what zelda would do without saying what zss would do i would like to point out again i don't know enough about zss to say what her counter actions would be.

Also so far it seems you are you the only one on this thread who thinks i am here just to say how great zelda is or to be bias b/c so far no one else has said my post was out of place or bias

 

[Garde]

I have to agree with James Sparrow, MK is definitely one of Zamus's hardest matches, by far. You can side+B through both his side+B and neutral-B, but the smaller the stage, the harder it is to avoid his bullcrap. His inability to be comboed and RIDICULOUS priority with practically no lag on his moves makes him not only hard to punish, but hard to hit. His size only makes matters worse as it becomes even harder to land side+Bs since he's a small target and he can duck under several of her grounded moves. Sadly, all of the characters I play as (Zamus, Zelda, Link, and Lucario) suffer horrible matches against him due to speed and priority issues (in comparison with MK).

As for Zelda, I used to think she was pretty easy to beat, until I spent time learning how to play her (she is my secondary). Her jab will beat out Zamus' like 95% of the time so getting in her jab range is a bad idea. Her up-smash is almost too good, imho, and all of her smashes in general have a lot less lag on them than I had originally thought (due to the fact that up- and f-smash have persisting multi-hit properties while her d-smash is just fast). Din's Fire, when used properly, can give Zamus (or any other character without a reliable projectile) a hard time approaching, but it can't stop approaches altogether. Zamus outreaches Zelda by a considerable amount via the side+B, and that is one key aspect you MUST focus on in order to beat her. Use it to make an opening, we know the sweet spot reach better than she does, and there is a gray area where she might use Din's Fire and you can hit her, you cannot hesitate.

Zelda's dash attack is incredible in terms of priority, but if you shield it she's screwed. Keep an eye out for it when you have the chance to dash attack while she is in a neutral position (i.e. not in hitstun and on the ground). Zelda's best spots to be are far away and up in your face while on the ground, so make sure to keep pressure on her from a safe distance for Zamus. Zelda's n-air is fast and high priority, and her SH is low enough so that she can hit you with it (if she times it properly, it will beat out all your air moves).

The area above Zelda is a bad place to be, as she can KO Bowser at 110% via up-air (no DI, haven't tested with). It's a disjointed hitbox and any good Zelda will be familiar with the timing to properly space this, so your chance of winning with any move is probably around 5-10% (better not to take the risk as failure often results in you being star KOed). Her dash canceled up-smash is ridiculous as well, and it sucks people in for the last hit, which can also kill at relatively low %, it has a long duration, but the hitboxes are active for almost the entire duration, making it pretty hard to do anything if you shielded (you have a chance of getting shield poked if you didn't perfect shield or your shield wasn't full).

To sum things up, you're going to be highly reliant on side+B for this match. Her f-air and b-air are probably the least of your worries as they are relatively slow and has other KO options. Since she has horrible DI and her recovery move is fairly difficult to use for grabbing onto ledges, getting her off stage is something you should aim for. Your own side+B can lead into dash attacks and then juggles, which will help you build damage, particularly due to the fact that her DI and mobility in general are poor. Don't fight the priority battle against her, because more often than not, you will lose, instead toy around with your reach advantage and force her to stop using Din's Fire just by positioning yourself in a place where she can't use it safely. Make openings when she's trying to play keep away and continue into juggles, as she's very helpless while airborne.

Also, her d-smash punishes rollers, so be careful about rolling toward her as it comes out quick,is hard to punish, and often knocks opponents far enough away so she can safely use Din's Fire again.

 

[Tsen]

Well why are you here, if you don't play ZSS and haven't played any good ZSS's why would you post nothing more than general statements. This is a match-up guide thread not a "These Zelda moves own" thread. But look at me playing your game feeding the troll *sigh* think I would've learned by now but oh well.

Btw nice post JS, I want to play you some time but I johned out of TGS for an interview =/

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i was just saying what a zelda would use and what her good moves are so you could say or think about how zss counters them i never said any of the moves owned zss but not saying what zelda's good moves are would not be helpful i was not bias i am not trolling and i think you are the only one who thinks what i wrote was in some way a bad thing. I dont see how a match up thread could be complete without help from people who main other characters as long as they are not bias and are just trying to help like i was.

how is it egotistical for me to apoligize for trying to help with my zelda knowledge? if its the part were i say i have knowledge of zelda that is a truth since i do main her. if its my sarcastic apology thats b/c i was not really sorry for trying to help why would i be?

 

[Tsen]

You seriously aren't worth the time honestly. All you did was make general statements which anyone who's played against or with zelda once should know, and further more angered me with your incessant need to push the issue that you had nothing but good intentions. You are the garbage of this thread...maybe even the entire forum, just leave here I don't have time to play your games and get infuriated over such nonsensical statements. The end

-Signed but not dated, Tsen/Kaze, hater of noobs

 

[Tristan_win]

So my friend and I did a little testing today about Zamus grab and apparently Zamus can grab some opponents out of their short hops. Sadly only four charters were found to be able to be grabbed at their max height.

Kirby
Meta knight
Snake
Jiggly puff.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

wait so first you say its rude of me to state zelda's good moves when on the first post in this thread what i think is a inaccurate run trough is quoted (no offence foolycooly) and i try to get it more accurate and then you insult me. Yes anyone who has played zelda should know what she can do but maybe not everyone here has played a zelda, and since the quoted post in the first post had a lacking describtion of what zelda does i wanted to fix that. I want you to tell me were i was being such a bad guy. You say i am garbage just b/c i made statements of which the point was for someone with more zss knowledge to say how zss would of fought that zelda but instead i get you insulting me and saying i am somehow doing something wrong. Please please tell me were i was being so wrong and evil and why would i not push the issue when i am being attacked for no good reason.

Also i got a question/statement i wonder if you would be so against my zelda comments if i did not main her. or if i said i 2nd zss and here is what i think of what zelda could do i don't think you would be against me so much. Maybe you just want me to stae what a character i dont main can do.

Lastly were is it that theae so called false good intentions you keep trying to make me sound like such a bad guy for no reason at all its not like i can busting in here saying how great zelda was or how badly she beats zss. And i am no noob why would you think i am such what is your reasoning behind it? o and i still think you are the only one who for some unknowen reason has a problem with me no one else on this thread so far has said i was so wrong or evil for saying what to look out for when fighting a zelda.

 

[Tsen]

The lower the hop the higher probability i'd think she would be able to grab them thus (without testing mind you) i'd speculate you should be able to grab people like Bowser along with the more heavy characters also chars such as TL. At what range did you try to grab though?

*Edits* Because everyone else is merely ignoring you yet I was the dumb one for feeding the troll, you are now ignored *Edits*

 

[Crimsonjassic]

I wish I could contribute, but I don't get any chances to play good players except online. =/

Although, does anyone have any strategies versus a Pikachu? Those fairs, dsmashes, and that easily spammable projectile are a pain. And while I'm on the request front, what do you do against a down B-spamming Luigi. Seems like about the only thing I can do is grab him out of it when I see it coming; all of my other attacks seem to just cancel out with it.

 

[Tristan_win]

The lower the hop the higher probability i'd think she would be able to grab them thus (without testing mind you) i'd speculate you should be able to grab people like Bowser along with the more heavy characters also chars such as TL. At what range did you try to grab though?

*Edits* Because everyone else is merely ignoring you yet I was the dumb one for feeding the troll, you are now ignored *Edits*

Wait, did you just call me a troll!? Why on earth would you accuse me of such a thing?

...Putting that aside I tested the grab while standing right next to my short hopping friend at 1/4 speed. I would time my grab so would it come out right when he reach max height.

Surprisingly Bowser can completely short hop over Zamus grab.

Of course this is just a basic foundation for more testing as some aerials might cause your opponent character to avoid or be grabbed but I would imagine this would not matter to the characters I've listed expect maybe Snake.

 

[Vro]

Luigi's vB, altho fast, is out maneuverable. Try reverse short hop >B. Or a quick fsmash might be able to protect you. Worst comes to worst, shield it and approach from there.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

so i thought about and decided to stop talking to someone who is unable to stay civil and unable to have a conversation without insulting someone for no good reason. Why is it that one feels the need to try to insult someone to prove they are right when all it really does is make them look sad and somewhat pathetic and lacking in intelligence. What a sad state one must be in to think that is the way to react when you disgree with someone. I now wash my hands of you

 

[Tsen]

The troll part wasn't about you Tristan geez =___= However I feel suppose range would be a pretty big determining factor as well. Sure you may not be able to grab a character at the apex of their short hop but not many characters attack while at the apex, instead doing so on the way down so i'd think it should be easier to grab a human at that point.

Also as far as the Luigi tornado goes, sure it cancels out a lot of moves, but let it. You just have to use a fast enough move to punish him (a jab or tilt, etc.) but of course there's always the choice of testing out moves that out prioritize it.

 

[Cynan Machae]

I missed this thread heh, pretty good information there.

From my experience, two matchups that give me trouble would be MetaKnight and Lucas. Since MK was covered pretty well, I'll give my thoughts about Lucas. Quite not as bad as MK, but as ZSS I find him a pain to fight.

IMO, the hardest thing against a Lucas player is to approach. Since Lucas is a way better spammer than ZSS (no kidding), he can usually camp until you get to him. PK Fires really hamper ground approaches, have a better range than side B, are faster than the stun gun, and are fast enough to stop most dash attacks.

Also, his aerial game is pretty strong, with good priority and quick attacks. Pseudo-combos after launching him in the air are really prone to get stopped by his Dair, and I find following with U-smashes or Up-Bs to be a better choice.

Lucas' smash attacks are pretty strong, and except for the up smash, are fast and don't have much lag.

Lucas' up-smash is a double-edge move. I find myself dying a lot more to this move, but it's so slow when it misses it's almsot not even funny (but fortunate for us). Abuse this move whenever you can, and trick them to let them use it when they really shouldn't. It shouldn't work many times, but if the Lucas player refrains from using it it'S stil la good thing, since this and the f-smash are the kill move you need to look for. You need to be aware that shielding this move pushes you back A LOT and that dodging is usually not a very good idea (a lot of hit frames).

So yea, most of ZSS's strengths seems to be quite weakened in the Lucas matchup. Her speed, range, "combo" potential are all diminished. ZSS also tend to die to quite low percents in this matchup. Playing patiently and waiting for an opening is the key.

Oh and don't even try playing a Lucas on Smashville. It's like Mission Smash Impossible.

 

[k4polo]

Bump. Good thread for new and old people to read.

 

[Snakeee]

Let me start contributing to this.
First I really don't think the Marth info is too accurate.
-Marth has no projectile so it is safe to do retreating paralyzer shots and either force him to make an approach and punish it, or get a shot in and get him with a dash attack-uptilt-etc.
- You have more range than Marth so use that to your advantage mostly with the forward B.
-Learn to predict his f-smashes when you're at high percent, powershield them, and go in for a dash attack combo.
- You really don't want to get in too close unless you're almost sure you're going to get a hit in. Marth can destroy you around the forward B's blind spot area, and I especially hate the forward B there.
-Be extra cautious using grabs against Marth especially at high percents because you'll eat a tipper f-smash