Match Ups | 3.5 Samus General MU Discussion

[Orion Prime]

I need help w the Snake and Peach MU's, lost to each at my last monthly...the snake is probably the 2nd best PM player in my area. May post a vid of the Snake fight when the vids get uploaded.

So, any experience out there??

 

[Taytertot]

i dont have any experience in the mu but i do know a fair amount about snake. i find that one of the best skills to have against snake is awareness of his different bombs and grenades, which includes knowing the timing of when a grenade will blow up after snake pulls it out, so that you can deal with the grenade accordingly. I notice way too many players who dont have the timing down for grenades and they get punished in neutral for almost no reason which then allows snake to gain positional advantage and set up other bomb/grenade stuff. if snake throws the grenade immediately then you will most likely have enough time to wavedash grab it as its coming at you and then throw it back at him. if snake cooks it then you need to recognize whether youre in a good position to shield it or if it would be better to just get out of the way since snake has limited angles that he can throw it even if he drops it and picks it back up.

another important thing to remember is that snakes close range punish game is probably a bit stronger then samus' since he hits harder and has around the same range. id imagine that this means that samus should be trying to camp out snake and giving herself plenty of room to deal with grenades while spamming missiles. charge shot should be able to detonate snakes dsmash mines if its charged enough to reach the ground which could be used to catch snake off guard and make him take damage from his mines.

snake has a much weaker recovery then samus and its super punishable with samus' nair. if snake recovers high then you could potential punish with bair too. if you space it really well i think samus' dair can reach past snake's cypher and dunk him if he doesnt meteor cancel it.

 

[Narpas_sword]

if the snake cooks/ shield>drop>Throw Grenades, i zair him.
It really stuffs their timing and can also protect from the grenade itself.

Zair beats mines too.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I need help w the Snake and Peach MU's, lost to each at my last monthly...the snake is probably the 2nd best PM player in my area. May post a vid of the Snake fight when the vids get uploaded.

So, any experience out there??

You can easily outcamp a snake. Try to not ever approach a snake without projectiles. He can really mess us up in close quarters. Also, watch out for his dair and nair follow ups. That stuff racks up percent easy and aren't too hard to set up and hit-confirm off of. We have to win the neutral in the matchup. Zair can really screw over snake on stages without platforms. His crawl is low, but a zair can still hit him if done low enough. Homing missiles can force options from snake, so abuse that.

You have to be very safe on shield against snake. Dair oos does so much against everybody. Also, down throw can be really nasty for follow ups if the snake gets the read.

Avoid being below snake if you can. With platforms, he can abuse his down b. Charge up neutral B if he is platform camping you. If you can read his jump patters, you can punish with a charge shot. Works like a charm, and sets up free edgeguards. When sending missiles offstage, if snake is high, then smash missile. If you don't trust your missile timing or snipes, then go for homing. If even then you don't trust your homing missiles, charge up your neutral B. We can get a lot off of edgeguards, so that is when you should take the lead or stage a comeback.


Against peach, it depends. Aggro peaches can be dealt with by dash dances. Nair if they don't respect your spacing, and pivot grab if they try to float cancel fair. Are you getting stuck in shield a lot? Try not to. Roll if you have to. Peach on our shield is rough. D smash shield pokes a lot if you don't angle your shield. This applies anywhere, but a surprise dash attack is good every once in a while. It could net you the kill some time. Or, you could bait shields with aggressive dash attacks and mix in grabs for that ice up smash. It depends.

I dunno how to play against defensive peach except with missiles, keeping up charge shot, and turnip-catching.

Ice mode is not bad here if you consistently get grabs. D throw up smash is good. But I like to stick to fire for the defensive fire fair and super quick f smash.

 

[Orion Prime]

Cool. Thanks for the advice guys, have a tournament this weekend so hopefully it'll come in handy.

I also have a bad habit of just losing my cool when i get tagged w a dang sticky mine. Snake's Uthrow-->Uair--> down B is extra cheesy against us bc we are so floaty.

 

[Narpas_sword]

dont get grabbed or stuck then =p

Play ultra lame to ensure that.

 

[eideeiit]

Any thoughts on the ditto? I'm bad etc., but after playing it today, I felt like...
Missiles are a pretty good edgeguard tool
Grabs rarely have that good reward
Patience is very important, as always

 

[Taytertot]

Any thoughts on the ditto? I'm bad etc., but after playing it today, I felt like...
Missiles are a pretty good edgeguard tool
Grabs rarely have that good reward
Patience is very important, as always

zair probably works well here if you can space it better then your opponent. samus dies earlier to vertical ko's then horizontal ones so if you think you can get a combo into ice usmash thatd be ideal. idk if dthrow usmash works on samus but its worth testing.

 

[bubbaking]

The ditto is pretty interesting. Samus edgeguards herself pretty well with homing missiles, especially ice ones. Dthrow > ice usmash doesn't work on good DI, but it can set up for platform techs which can be easily caught with ice usmash. I believe zair also destroys missiles, so it's a really good spacing tool.

I believe Samus:Snake is slightly in Samus' favor. If you find yourself in CQC, abuse that crawl. Crawl avoids his grab, jab, most of his tilts and smashes, DA, tranq, and grenade throw. If he goes for dtilt before you're at high %'s, you should be able to CC dtilt/dsmash him back (which he can't CC). Zair breaks his grenades, so if you time it well, you can break his 'nades on top of him. You can also stuff his mine placement, or even better, lock him down on top of a freshly-placed mine for free damage. If the plat arrangement is regular, like BF or PS2, then Samus generally has an easier time zoning with missiles. If it's irregular (DS, YI, etc), then Snake has an easier time zoning and controlling the stage, I feel. Interestingly, you can go deep offstage to dair Snake's recovery because the Cipher reliably hits you out of your move after you hit him. If he goes high, bair or charge shot him.

Samus kind of messes up Peach in PM. Definitely a solid advantage in Samus' favor. You're faster, so keep your distance and bait her approaches. If she goes ham on your shield, upB out. Charge shot, zair, and double missiles are all OP in this MU. Punish her float and then take advantage of the conditioning. Dthrow > ice usmash works a bit better in this MU, so keep it in mind when she's around 100 (too high and it doesn't work at all). However, dthrow > fire usmash is also a thing and tacks on a lot of damage. It's not really necessary in PM, but if you're really worried about fighting her, you can actually platform camp her on BF and DL64 since Samus plat mobility, is extremely good and Peach is pretty slow. Just make sure you don't over-extend into her fair. Also, watch out for grab mix-ups.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Samus winning)

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What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the Jiggs matchup?

(Edit for clarity)

 

[eideeiit]

Format- Character: Matchup from

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What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the Jiggs matchup?

Pit may be more even? Sharkz beat ESAM at Tipped Off and he apparently had no real MU exp. Also copypasting a theorycraft post by Life:

I appreciate that you value my opinion, though I'm not on the same level of play as the other two.

I'll take a look.

EDIT: There's a guy in my region who thinks Samus/Pit is like 20:80 or something LOL. I think he's nuts, but I wouldn't be surprised if Pit wins this matchup. Keep in mind this is largely theorycraft based on relatively little experience; if Sharkz or Gallo or a notable Samus contradicts me, feel free to go with them.

I can imagine getting down is a nightmare for her in the matchup (and indeed, the guy I mentioned basically ragequit after I juggled him for 100% plus a stock, though he wasn't using every tool she has to mix up her landings--the real Samus in our area I only barely defeated the one time we played). Pit has the mobility to avoid her projectiles, alongside his massively-buffed reflector (though as we all hopefully know, reflectors are more of a convenience than a real answer versus Samus), so I'm not sure what she does for zoning against Pit.

One advantage Samus does have in the matchup is that she's so heavy that Pit can't really combo her out of dthrow before she is able to just nair him. Because of this, I prefer uthrow in the Samus matchup. Combine that with her powerful CC game and I could see her doing decently in neutral, outside of the projectile stuff I mentioned.

In terms of offstage game: the threat of arrows makes bomb jumping a bit of a scary proposition for Samus. If Pit gets to the ledge before she can reel in her tether, she goes into a ton of lag, and if she's far enough offstage to be relying on tether to get back she will probably die to ledge hop back air if she gets hit by it. Lastly, if Pit can force her to land on stage with upB, that should likewise be a hard punish if he gets the back air. That said, usually Pit's gonna be relying on his stellar vertical game for punishes if I'm reading this matchup right, so it comes up less than you might think.

Meanwhile, a Pit that recovers low can be threatened by ledgehop aerials, or by dropping bombs in front of the ledge. Level with the stage, and Pit's asking for missiles or charge shot (he might be able to come down with shield but that puts him low). Arrow harassment will throw them off if they try to go to the ledge, since it'll force them to face front--I've seen a lot of players thrown out of their comfort zone as soon as they get turned around. If Pit's coming high, her best bet is to catch his landings with missiles or CC (he doesn't have aerial answers to CC at all until relatively high percents).

Overall, I suspect this is either a 0 or +1 for Pit matchup, where Samus has a decent advantage in neutral due to CC but gets punished very hard if she gets juggled. Gonna copy-paste this to the Pit board and get their input first, though, so hold on before adding anything to the chart.

 

[Chevy]

Format- Character: Matchup from

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What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the Jiggs matchup?

M2 is at least -2, if not -3. Wolf is even, Bowser only +1, DK is -1. Most those +2s I'd call +1s or even.

 

[ShadowKing]

Format- Character: Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Samus winning)

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What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the Jiggs matchup?

Roy is not even with Samus my reasoning behind these is because Roy can get in and has a really good combo game and great kill power.Yes Samus can space but many top roy players where able to get around her projectile's so I say around -1 or -2

 

[bubbaking]

Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Samus winning)

+3:
+2:

+1:
0:

-1:
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?

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the Jiggs matchup?

(Edit for clarity)

I don't really play against Jiggs much, and I've never done the MU in tournament, but I would surmise that Jiggs:Samus is close to even, maybe slight Jiggs advantage. In Melee, it's one of Samus' worst MUs, but Samus gets some pretty good tools in PM. Ice usmash alone probably makes things way more bearable, and zair probably helps a lot as well.

Spoiler: Reply to other MUs

Zard, IMO, is way closer to even, if not even slightly Zard-favored. His juggle capability is really strong, as are his floaty-killing abilities. He does get edgeguarded somewhat hard, though. At neutral, he can jab and tilt missiles, and at mid-range, his DD grab game is really strong, although we have zair to help mitigate that.

Yoshi is definitely also much closer to even. It's really hard to kill him or even poke at him with anything. Similarly to Zard, Yoshi is decent at juggling (eggs are pretty amazing at juggling), and he's pretty good at killing floaties.

Kirby is also much closer to even. One of the few chars who can proactively threaten to gimp Samus in almost all offstage situations. He has a really easy time avoiding missiles and zair and getting in, IMO. Our strengths are our weight and CC ability as well as our greater range on our tilts.

Diddy is also much closer to even, IMO, possibly slight Samus advantage if you have really good item play.

I don't really think Samus actually beats anyone you have listed as +1. They're all pretty much even, except for DK (-1). Ganon is extremely scary once he gets in, since he gets confirmed true-combos off both his regular and side-B grabs, similarly ranged moves that can't be CC'd, and great juggle ability. He also has some pretty good anti-tether tech if Samus has to recover low (reverse uair is amazing). Luckily, we can kinda camp him and edgeguard him really well.

DK can easily nair through missiles, CC Samus' ftilt, and juggle really hard. His grab game is extremely annoying when he gets in. Also, invincible ledgedrop upB stuffs literally all of Samus' low recovery options. Zair can stuff him pretty well, and he's kinda easy to poke and combo, but the fact that we can't really reliably kill him until 150+% is also a big problem.

Luigi is actually a pretty weird MU. He can tornado to clank with missiles, which conserves his momentum and lets him approach at high speed with no commitment. We can stop this by missiling his head or zairing. However, he can also punish most of our tilts with WD OoS, and he is pretty decent at comboing us. Fireballs are also pretty good at counter-zoning us. Luckily, he is fairly easy to gimp.

MK has some pretty blatant strengths and weaknesses against us. His weaknesses are that he's very susceptible to CCing and being combo'd, and he's light. His strengths are that he can circumvent his CC weakness with his incredible DD grab game, which is a pretty big problem for us, and he can juggle us for days, finishing off with decent vertical KO ability.

Falco:Samus is even, if not Samus-advantaged. I personally think it's even, or very close to that, in Melee, and there's no reason for a better Samus to have a harder time against an identical Falco. Great OoS answers to shine pressure, great gimp ability on Falco's recovery, hard to kill, can crawl under lasers, etc.

Samus:ROB is pretty even. I play both chars at a fairly high level against other good players of the other char (ROB against Minty and Samus against Rubba Prime). Both of them have good things on each other that are pretty equal in weight. Both can poke and CC each other pretty well as well as edgeguard each other pretty hard. ROB can juggle Samus, counter-zone her projectiles (laser beats everything and gyro absorbs missiles and Charged Shot), reflect her projectiles while approaching on the ground, and he can kill her off the top fairly early. Samus can zair almost anything ROB is doing, she can play for extended periods of time while holding onto his gyro, and she can kill off the top early with anti-air usmash. She can also pressure his shield pretty easily, since he has no good OoS game. His shield is also easy to poke, and he's pretty comboable for Samus.

I personally think Ike:Samus is also a bit closer to even, maybe slight Ike advantage. Missiles can really hamper his QD and he doesn't really have good OoS options, so he can be jab pressured fairly well. What's more, one of his best moves (jab) is easily CCC'd. Offstage, missiles harass him pretty well if he's forced to charge QD high.

DDD I feel beats Samus. I've played a few sets with L_Pag. DDD has a lot of interesting specific strengths on Samus. For starters, he has a very good grab game, which is a major weakness of Samus. If Samus doesn't DI his dthrow perfectly down and away, he gets a CG across the stage. On top of that, DDD is a master juggler. From a distance, Waddles block missiles, and his ftilt vastly outranges Samus'. To top it all off, DDD can very easily edgeguard Samus. He can go out incredibly far, use pretty much any aerial to knock her out of bombs or tether, and then still recovery. Meanwhile, Samus struggles to kill DDD before 150%. Not a really good set-up for an even MU.

I also feel Zelda beats Samus. On the obvious side, you have a land-cancelling reflector, but something more subtle that many people don't know is that Zelda can always punish a shielded ftilt from Samus with a lightning kick. This makes neutral game very grueling because you literally have to resist the urge to tilt her shield, even if you're perfectly spaced.

Samus:Sheik is not even. Forget that Sheilda is actually a thing and Zelda beats Samus, Sheik beats Samus at all ranges. At long range, needles out-prioritize missiles, so Sheik out-zones/out-camps Samus. At close range, Sheik's grab game is devastating, and her throw mix-ups into tipper usmash/uair kill us really early. Our saving graces are our CC ability and our small crawl (we can crawl under needles, and it's essentially a moving CC). Even offstage, we're in big trouble since needles easily knock us out of our bomb jumps and tethers, and Sheik can also cover tethers with bair.

I actually think we kinda body Olimar. We out-zone him since our zair goes through anything he does, and our missiles also kill his Pikmin. Offstage, he's extremely easy to edgeguard if he doesn't go high. The biggest problem we have in the MU is Olimar's juggling.

Samus doesn't really win or lose that many MUs pretty strongly. She's just that kind of character.
Edit: Oops, meant to say slight Ike advantage.

Pit may be more even? Sharkz beat ESAM at Tipped Off and he apparently had no real MU exp. Also copypasting a theorycraft post by Life:

I guess I should tag Life in this, especially since I don't really know much about the Samusit MU. Can't Samus counter-zone Pit with zair? Also, does Pit's nair not work well against CC?

M2 is at least -2, if not -3. Wolf is even, Bowser only +1, DK is -1. Most those +2s I'd call +1s or even.

Why do you think Bowser is only a +1 for us?

 

[Life]

I haven't played the matchup since then \_o.o_/

Samus zair is pretty nuts, yes, although a bit slower than you might think because Samus needs to be airborne a few extra frames in order to get max distance (depending on how you airdodge). 20 frames of landing lag+(EDIT)3 frames of jumpsquat+a few frames airborne+startup of zair is probably enough to get an arrow out, and IIRC it's also minus a bunch on shield so you could WDOOS to approach, though not outright punish, if you see zair coming (although that doesn't make it unsafe, just less spammable than I used to think back in the day).

Pit's nair isn't great against CC unless you space it to cross up. Pit in general doesn't really have ways to play around CC besides arrowing to encourage approaches, which is definitely an issue for him vs. Samus. Not sure how his stuff interacts with missiles tho?

 

[bubbaking]

3 frames of jumpsquat, but yeah, I see what you're saying.

OK. I had just assumed that since it was a rapid multi-hit aerial, it could circumvent CC and 'combo' into grab, or at least allow Pit to shield, similarly to a drill. Missiles can easily be clanked with, and IIRC, arrows can clank as well, so the two should clank with each other. Not sure how well Pit's other moves work in that regard, though.

 

[Chevy]

Why do you think Bowser is only a +1 for us?

Basically Bowser is mostly bad because he gets 0 to deathed by everyone and has a lackluster neutral. Samus has one of the weakest punish games across the cast and Bowser doesnt lose neutral quite hard enough to make it that degenerate. Dash attack goes through missiles and pops us up so missiles can be dangerous at a lot of ranges, and hes very good at edgeguarding us and killing off the top if we get caught by up-b or another vertical launcher. I mean, hes still Bowser so Samus wins but its not that bad for him.

 

[bubbaking]

I see what you're saying, and I guess the MU definitely isn't a +3 for us. However, I would still think it's a +2. We may not '0-to-death' Bowser, but we still combo him pretty hard, especially on platform tech-chases. At long range, we can still camp him fairly hard, and closer than that, zair becomes a pretty viable option. Also, he edgeguards us pretty well, but we edgeguard him harder. It's extremely hard for Bowser to sweetspot the ledge so that he doesn't get dangle fsmashed, dangle ftilted, or utilted. On top of that, it's actually not that hard to dair Bowser unless he recovers high.

One thing I also think we should consider is the close-up neutral game, which is the area where Bowser should have the most advantageous options. However, even in this area, I don't think Bowser does that well. Bowser's gameplay is heavily ground-based, so it's extremely CC and OoS-dependent. Because of that, he is extremely susceptible to grabs, and we get some hefty punishes off of our throws. In addition, his shield isn't that hard to poke with dtilt, especially after a missile and/or a couple jabs and/or a full fair. In my region, we've had two decent Bowser players (both of whom I helped quit the character ), and this is what I noticed as we played. Bowser would struggle to get past missiles and zair, and once he finally 'got in' (more like I approached at mid-range), he had to worry about being grabbed or shield-poked. At mid-range, if I missile cancel, Bowser (and most chars) has to shield, avoid the missile, or attack the missile. We already know very well how to punish people who badly shield or avoid the missiles, so let's look at attacking them. You pointed out that Bowser's DA beats out missiles and hits us. Well, if Bowser is committing to that against a mid-range missile, then we can easily react and shield, then OoS punish.

 

[Chevy]

I see what you're saying, and I guess the MU definitely isn't a +3 for us. However, I would still think it's a +2. We may not '0-to-death' Bowser, but we still combo him pretty hard, especially on platform tech-chases. At long range, we can still camp him fairly hard, and closer than that, zair becomes a pretty viable option. Also, he edgeguards us pretty well, but we edgeguard him harder. It's extremely hard for Bowser to sweetspot the ledge so that he doesn't get dangle fsmashed, dangle ftilted, or utilted. On top of that, it's actually not that hard to dair Bowser unless he recovers high.

One thing I also think we should consider is the close-up neutral game, which is the area where Bowser should have the most advantageous options. However, even in this area, I don't think Bowser does that well. Bowser's gameplay is heavily ground-based, so it's extremely CC and OoS-dependent. Because of that, he is extremely susceptible to grabs, and we get some hefty punishes off of our throws. In addition, his shield isn't that hard to poke with dtilt, especially after a missile and/or a couple jabs and/or a full fair. In my region, we've had two decent Bowser players (both of whom I helped quit the character ), and this is what I noticed as we played. Bowser would struggle to get past missiles and zair, and once he finally 'got in' (more like I approached at mid-range), he had to worry about being grabbed or shield-poked. At mid-range, if I missile cancel, Bowser (and most chars) has to shield, avoid the missile, or attack the missile. We already know very well how to punish people who badly shield or avoid the missiles, so let's look at attacking them. You pointed out that Bowser's DA beats out missiles and hits us. Well, if Bowser is committing to that against a mid-range missile, then we can easily react and shield, then OoS punish.

If they are dash attacking a missile at range where you have time to react then you're just theorycrafting the Bowser as a bad player. Bowser also has the option to crouch missiles and much of our close quarters game to break cqc neutral. I would also refute that he is heavily ground based given his fantastic aerials and aerial mixup game. Character is bad, but he has options.

 

[Tarul]

Generally speaking, Bowser's neutral game is defeated by DD -> grab. However, Samus' grab isn't very good in neutral due to its high commitment and slowness, so the "Press Z to win" strat isn't as viable. Also, Samus is a character that thrives on trades- something that Bowser does very well as well. Finally, Bowser has a pretty easy time powershielding due to the size of his shield- so powershielding missiles shouldn't be hard for the turtle (this isn't counting the fact that he can crouch armor through them as well at low percents)

Overall, this matchup is probably still +1 for Samus because Bowser isn't very good, but it's quite possible that Samus is one of Bowser's better matchups. Samus has to work harder than most characters in neutral, and her 0-to-death potential isn't quite as strong as other characters.

 

[Mechaglacier]

how does the mew2-samus mu go?

 

[Litt]

how does the mew2-samus mu go?

Use homing missiles b/c they are not a threat if reflected, (get sent back faster + 1.5x damage and knockback if m2 side bs), m2 kills samus super early with up and b throw so you want to be maintaining a safe distance and try to bait out M2's teleports or zoning with zair. Fire moveset great for tacking percent in this MU but harder to kill with, IC i believe dthrow fair or dthrow up smash connects, and at the very worst crawl boost ball attack into upsmash should be guaranteed.

Generally speaking, Bowser's neutral game is defeated by DD -> grab. However, Samus' grab isn't very good in neutral due to its high commitment and slowness, so the "Press Z to win" strat isn't as viable. Also, Samus is a character that thrives on trades- something that Bowser does very well as well. Finally, Bowser has a pretty easy time powershielding due to the size of his shield- so powershielding missiles shouldn't be hard for the turtle (this isn't counting the fact that he can crouch armor through them as well at low percents)

Overall, this matchup is probably still +1 for Samus because Bowser isn't very good, but it's quite possible that Samus is one of Bowser's better matchups. Samus has to work harder than most characters in neutral, and her 0-to-death potential isn't quite as strong as other characters.

I've played some top melee bowsers (DJN and Warriorknight) who make the melee MU look even. Bowser I would have to say is an even MU or slightly in his favor depending on the stage. If you can missile camp bowser and are knowledgeable on his super armor then in samus's favor, but if you have a small stage or one without platforms, things could go south fast.

 

[Narpas_sword]

knowledgeable on his super armor then in samus's favor, but if you have a small stage or one without platforms, things could go south fast.

First thing to learn about bowser's armour: It's not Super Armor. It's just Armour.
Bowser has no Super Armour moves.

 

[Chevy]

Use homing missiles b/c they are not a threat if reflected, (get sent back faster + 1.5x damage and knockback if m2 side bs), m2 kills samus super early with up and b throw so you want to be maintaining a safe distance and try to bait out M2's teleports or zoning with zair. Fire moveset great for tacking percent in this MU but harder to kill with, IC i believe dthrow fair or dthrow up smash connects, and at the very worst crawl boost ball attack into upsmash should be guaranteed.



I've played some top melee bowsers (DJN and Warriorknight) who make the melee MU look even. Bowser I would have to say is an even MU or slightly in his favor depending on the stage. If you can missile camp bowser and are knowledgeable on his super armor then in samus's favor, but if you have a small stage or one without platforms, things could go south fast.

D-throw f-air works more than it should but they can DI away and f-air you, so space accordingly. Crawl attack can be crouch cancelled by anyone at like any percent but if they don't it is very good yeah. Make sure to DI down when you are being b-aired repeatedly off stage as well.