Match Up Thread Export - Meta Knight

[Noobicidal]

This thread will be used to help keep match up discussion clean and concise. This series of threads will all be linked to the compendium.

With that said, this thread is dedicated to the Jigglypuff/Meta Knight match up. Let the discussion commence!

Match Up Summary​

Stage Picks and Bans​

Final Word​

Relevant/Important Links​

 

[GeneralWoodman]

First stock determines everything. If a good mk gets the lead...he will camp...and he will win. F-tilt camp and up b oos wall us and the only time we get a chance for significant hits is with pivot grabs and dairs. A walking mk> running mk in this match up . Its still 30-70 in my opinion

 

[Jigglymaster]

I could place 1st and still be wrong. There are no safe situations for stuff. I still believe Jiggz does surprisingly well against MK, but MK has twice the range, power, priority and about everything. I just want to know how you get past well spaced fairs and dairs?

His Fair's aren't always out and hes vulnerable eventually. Find the right time and do a Boost Fair.

At worst this matchup is 60:40 in Metaknights Favor

I think 70:30 Metaknight is too much, thats something like when your up against Snake. And I have a MUCH easier time beating a Metaknight than Snake. They do not have the same match-up ratio I can guarantee that. Jigglypuff does not do "Surprisingly well" just to get a 30:70 match-up.

30:70 is for Vs Snake and DDD, not Metaknight.

The matchup is similar to how Link does evenly well against Snake mostly because of how similar they are with their projectiles, weight, and recovery. The same goes for Metaknight and Jigglypuff. Snake is still better against Link and Metaknight is still better against Jigglypuff making it not 5:5, but calling it 30:70 is something I cannot accept.

There are many options to getting past MK's Fair and Dair. You can attack from above with Drill, you can attack from below with DACUS, you can juke them out by doing a pivot into a fair, pound, or dodging right through them to get up close. If Metaknight thinks he can punish you for jumping then if he tries to grab you don't airdodge, fair him in the face. Is he trying to keep you away with f-tilt? Then powersheild the first one and then grab him.

As for counterpicks there a a bunch of levels that are good for you. On halberd he'll die from drill to rest at 49%, 49%!!! If he wants to pick RC then let him counter RC. You can kill him with Drill to rest at 52% compared to the regular 59% on FD. You move faster than he does in the air so poke him when your on the moving section. Not to mention you don't have to worry about being caught up on top because you only die if you touch the floor which Jigglypuff can avoid by using rising pound. I can't think of a good CP MK can use against Jigglypuff because there is none.


STAGE PICKS AND BANS

Counterpicks

Halberd: The lighter your opponent is (with the exception of Olimar), the better low ceiling stages are, and Metaknight doesn't kill too well off the top compared to most other characters. Its better for you because Drill to rest kills at such a low % here its not even funny.

FD: This stage is best for your Drill attack since there are no platforms, and you kill Metaknight sooner than most other levels.

Bans

Any stage that you don't do well on: Theres no stage that your bad against Metaknight so ban the stage your most uncomfortable with.

 

[T-block]

Ban Luigi's Mansion imo.

I don't buy what you said about f-tilt though. The first hit of f-tilt is definitely not powershieldable on reaction. If he's walking around to space it, I don't see how you're going to be getting powershields reliably.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Ban Luigi's Mansion imo.

I don't buy what you said about f-tilt though. The first hit of f-tilt is definitely not powershieldable on reaction. If he's walking around to space it, I don't see how you're going to be getting powershields reliably.

A lot of stuff in this game is based on predicting. So predict when he'll do ftilt and try to powersheild it, meaning shield before he even starts to use it. Its kind of easy to know when he'll do it too, this is all part about learning your opponent.

Mix your game up with powersheild to grab or dash attack. If you decide to do dash attack and he mis times it he'll get hit, and thats a good killing move too.

 

[-LzR-]

I never said it's 70-30 for MK. I said it's MK advantage for sure. Any character can get past MK's brickwalls. If something was unbeatable, he would be banned. Jigglypuff just lacks the range, also GSL OoS hurts Jiggz because of her horrible range.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I never said it's 70-30 for MK. I said it's MK advantage for sure. Any character can get past MK's brickwalls. If something was unbeatable, he would be banned. Jigglypuff just lacks the range, also GSL OoS hurts Jiggz because of her horrible range.

So what is your opinion on the matchup ratio then if not 70:30?

 

[-LzR-]

In my opinion I would say something about 60-40 sounds realistic. That is also **** fantastic for a low tier like Jiggz.

 

[Jigglymaster]

In my opinion I would say something about 60-40 sounds realistic. That is also **** fantastic for a low tier like Jiggz.

I could compromise with a 60:40 match-up, when the MK knows all of Jiggly's tricks he does have a slight advantage, this is also saying that the Jiggly is really good too.

 

[T-block]

If I had to give it a ratio, which I don't like doing, I'd call it 60:40 too. It's not toooo overwhelming of a disadvantage, but the Jiggs has to work really hard and be really patient.

I'm still skeptical about f-tilt... if he's spacing you with his walk, how are you getting in? Are you dashing in?

 

[Maniclysane]

It's 65:35.

The only thing we have on MK is faster aerial mobility. I play PT for this Matchup.

 

[T-block]

lol why would you pick PT of all characters for MK

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

As for counterpicks there a a bunch of levels that are good for you. On halberd he'll die from drill to rest at 49%, 49%!!! If he wants to pick RC then let him counter RC. You can kill him with Drill to rest at 52% compared to the regular 59% on FD. You move faster than he does in the air so poke him when your on the moving section. Not to mention you don't have to worry about being caught up on top because you only die if you touch the floor which Jigglypuff can avoid by using rising pound. I can't think of a good CP MK can use against Jigglypuff because there is none.

Are those numbers for drill rest with or without DI?

I personally believe that the matchup is either 45-55 or 40-60 for jiggs. She doesn't have an advantage over MK, but she does do well against him. I agree with all that you've said so far, Jigglymaster. I'd also like to add that Jiggs has rest on the tornado (it's not too hard, I've done it in a tourney pool once) which shuts down tornado for cases when MK is at kill percents and when jiggs can survive a fully charged Fsmash (for damage).

When neither of the above cases are true, Nair at the top of the tornado, FFed or otherwise shuts down tornado. With any Jiggs that can rest out of nado and use nair right (certainly this applies to the top of the metagame) MK loses tornado in this matchup.

I think it's important to note that MK cannot use tornado (or at least should not) in this matchup, since it's one of his biggest assets as a character.


Tl;dr verson:

MK loses tornado against Jiggs.

 

[-LzR-]

Maybe you guys are overrating tornado, it's a good move, but losing it for a certain MU doesn't really matter since he still has so much options left.

Also, when considering drillrest, we should always take in account DI, who cannot react in that time to realize he is being drill rested and smash the stick left or right?

Also, we Jigglypuff players are and have always been very optimistic, which is very good, but unfortunately we don't really do that well against MK. Walking Ftilt, what are you going to do?
FH and SH fairs, what are you gonna do?
GST OoS, what are you gonna do?
Well the answer is, nothing if MK does it correctly. But of course no one is perfect, but still, Jigglypuff has trouble landing hits. Pound is the savior in this MU from what I have played, but it's so easy to bait by the MK player.

 

[KillerJawz]

I think you guys are overrating the drill. That move is ridiculously easy to dodge as MK, why on earth would MK be grounded in the first place? Let alone the fact that drill is really really easy to SDI :/.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Maybe you guys are overrating tornado, it's a good move, but losing it for a certain MU doesn't really matter since he still has so much options left.

Also, when considering drillrest, we should always take in account DI, who cannot react in that time to realize he is being drill rested and smash the stick left or right?

Also, we Jigglypuff players are and have always been very optimistic, which is very good, but unfortunately we don't really do that well against MK. Walking Ftilt, what are you going to do?
FH and SH fairs, what are you gonna do?
GST OoS, what are you gonna do?
Well the answer is, nothing if MK does it correctly. But of course no one is perfect, but still, Jigglypuff has trouble landing hits. Pound is the savior in this MU from what I have played, but it's so easy to bait by the MK player.

I'm not saying the tornado is the best thing evar, but it is the reason for many of his good matchups. It shuts down alot of characters, and I think it should be noted that it isn't the case here. So you do admit that the points I made for Jiggs shutting down tornado are valid, though, correct?

The think about DI'ing out of drill is that it can be read. If the Jiggs player properly reads the DI, then MK can still be rested. It falls on the mindgames in the match, and does not counter drillrest at all.

You make points about MK creating walls and doing things we can't counteract. This really doesn't stand up in practice. It looks good on paper, but it just doesn't happen. MK can't attack forever. There will be small holes in which he's vulnerable. He does have ending lag to all his moves, however small and Jiggs is fast enough to get hits in when that happens. It won't happen all the time but it will happen enough for a fair match.

Plus if MK is standing there making a "brick wall" Jiggs can start charging a rollout then what? You'll block it with tornado? Sounds good to me.

I think you guys are overrating the drill. That move is ridiculously easy to dodge as MK, why on earth would MK be grounded in the first place? Let alone the fact that drill is really really easy to SDI :/.

We might be overrating it, but you are totally underrating it. As I said before, if you SDI to one side we can follow. Even without rest, Jiggs does very well here.

Why would he be grounded? A few reasons.

First off, you can't use that argument of not needing to land in this case. Unlike with most of MK's matchups, he doesn't outclass Jigg's ability to be airborn. He will be grounded more than we will for that reason only.

Secondly, Besides Nair, MK has no way to kill us in the air. Even shuttle loop is better on the ground. As long as we space well enough to not get hit nair (easy) or even if we DI out of it you won't be able to kill us well. MK will be grounded to try and get the KO.

He WILL be grounded in this matchup so drill resting is possible.


Additionally, I would like to let you know that Jiggs has other options after drill. She can land and do uptilt (kills at 150) she can grab if you shield, she can footstool and dair again. We won't go for the rest every time.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

you can actually SDI out and perform an action before the drill is even over...i do it in dittos a lot to revenge rest ppl. You have to start mashing immediately though, so i doubt any mks knows the match up that well to SDI at the same rhythm as you drill.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

If the Jiggs player reads the DI perfectly, isn't the victim still in the same position?

 

[Maniclysane]

lol why would you pick PT of all characters for MK

Because Pokemon Trainer is good against MK?

 

[Noobicidal]

Additionally, I would like to let you know that Jiggs has other options after drill. She can land and do uptilt (kills at 150)

I'd like to let you know that Dair gains knockback after 145%, so following up with up tilt at 150% is impossible.

 

[-LzR-]

What I meant about DI of drillrest was that the REST can be DI'd so it doesn't always kill at the lowest possible %.

Also, your argument about MK having openings. ANY character can abuse these openings, it doesn't make the MU good. Also it's the MK player who made the mistake in the first place. And drillresting MK is pretty much impossible if MK knows the MU. He will stay in air where it doesn't work and where he can outspace us so bad it sucks.

 

[EraOfGames]

The best success I've had against MK is trying to time him out by air planking, which would've been the first time I won against a Metaknight that didn't suck. It's alot easier to read him since he's frustrated trying to hit you, and you can punish with bair and whatnot. I'd throw in some Rollouts to punish him and increase my lead further while I'm ahead a stock. But then I stopped punishing him and failed. /story

So more relevant to discussion..

Shuttle Loop: Dair trades hits, only real "punish" I can think of. Can be read and airdodged somewhat easily. The glide attack can be clanked with nair and probably some other aerials as well. On ground it's kinda impossible to punish? :| I can't even grab him when he's spamming multiple SL's.

Mach Tornado: Does anyone know how to beat it? >_> Pound goes through only at a certain angle and it's laggy. I think usmash actually beats it (if someone wants to test), but its laggy too. Jigglypuff pops out of tornado very easily but still, that's like a free 3% or so for him. Like I said before, Resting out of Tornado doesn't sound very viable, sounds pretty situational and if you miss GG. Rollout could probably punish the ending lag if you read it, especially if he uses it in the air since he goes in a free fall.


I don't think Jiggs can ever hope to fight him on the ground outside of grabs. She's already bad on ground obviously, but MK just ***** her even harder with better range and speed. Ftilt camping...never really had to face that, but try airdodge behind>grab. Fighting him in the air is hard too since he is faster and had good range. Just space yourself well with your much faster airspeed and punish with pound/aerials when you can.

For stages, I'm not really sure where to take him. He's not really bad on any stage iirc, and some of puff's good stages he does well too on, like Brinstar and RC. I'd pick FD since he can't retreat to platforms after using tornado, more opportunities to punish. The natural campiness of the stage can help spacing since you have more room to retreat. Halberd is probably good too like Jigglymaster said because of the low ceiling, MK isn't very good at vertical killing so it helps us more if we use dacus and rest.

Imo the mu is 30-70. It's a pretty difficult fight... >_>

 

[-LzR-]

I just love how everyone says it's a good thing "insert move here" clanks with glide attack. Glide attack has possibly the worst priority of all moves in brawl, it is the only move that can clank in air.

Dair only trades hit with late Shuttle Loop which shouldn't happen. The initial hitbox is so disjointed that dair doesn't beat it. Pound can beat his aerials, but it's so predictable and punishable that it won't happen.

 

[T-block]

I think you guys are overrating the drill. That move is ridiculously easy to dodge as MK, why on earth would MK be grounded in the first place? Let alone the fact that drill is really really easy to SDI :/.

Aerial MK is a lot easier to beat for Jigglypuff. Grounded MK walling with f-tilt and stuffing approaches with Shuttle Loop is a lot harder.

Because Pokemon Trainer is good against MK?

lol since when

 

[lordhelmet]

I think you guys are forgetting match-ups ratios take these things into consideration:

• Top-Level of play
• Both players knowing the match-up (they know how to SDI drill and such)
• Mindgames aren't taken into consideration whatsoever

After reading some of the posts here I thought I'd remind you all.

 

[-LzR-]

I am well aware of that. I think my posts made that point clear pretty well. A good MK cannot be hit safely at all. Just look at the Marth MU. MK is quicker and has more range and less lag than Marth and has an easier time killing. Yet Marth is super hard for some reason. Yes, his fair brick wall can be beaten, but it doesn't make Jigglypuff win. Just wanted to you to all avoid being biased about Jiggz. As much as I like her, but I can't help it that he is a horrible character.

 

[Noobicidal]

I just can't believe anyone thinks the match up is better than 35:65.

 

[-LzR-]

All Jigglypuff players are biased. It's only natural. Everyone's stereotype is the "nerfed from melee she sucks" and "she can't kill"
Yet true, her options aren't as limited as some other lowtiers. Let's say Samus (I am so biased about Samus, she sucks), she can't kill, can't even camp and did I already mention she can't kill?
MK is pretty incredibly hard. Just because you may outplay the MK once in a while to go through his fair doesn't remove the fact it's lagless. Also Drilling MK, being above MK, gg.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I think you guys are forgetting match-ups ratios take these things into consideration:

• Top-Level of play
• Both players knowing the match-up (they know how to SDI drill and such)
• Mindgames aren't taken into consideration whatsoever

After reading some of the posts here I thought I'd remind you all.

That is true, however I believe that Drill to rest is Legit if the opponent trips during the dair. Regardless of the SDI if they happen to trip on the last Dair that they are hit by they will be rested.

And by saying the players know the matchup also the Tornado would indeed be out of the question unless the metaknight wanted to get rested.

I don't understand whats so unstoppable about the walking ftilt. You have something called a sheild you know. Use it. Whats he going to do? Grab you? Then counter it. Is he going walk away and keep ftilting you? He'll run out of stage eventually.

Is he planking you on the ledge? Well you've got a nifty move called pound to take care of that. I'm not sure how you can really make a match-up ratio without the factor of mind games. All it comes down to is a game of rock paper sissors. Just becaues one move beats pound dosn't mean that move beats all of Jigglypuff's moves.

In otherwords for your rules for making a matchup ratio are flawed because that would mean everybody is 5:5. For the characters to be at their very best with no flaws in their mindgames, otherwords Tool Assisted. Nobody would win regardless of the character.

You guys don't have to agree with me if you don't want to. But all I'm going to say is that my vote for this matchup ratio is 60:40 Metaknights Favor. I'm settling with that. If it ends up worse for Jiggs than that then fine, my Jiggs vs MK will always be 40:60.

 

[-LzR-]

Pound stops planking?
I just lost all respect for you and from this on will never take your posts seriously. You are so wrong. The point that you can't do anything about ftilt grounded is that he won't do anything else. He runs the timer if you don't go through.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Pound stops planking?
I just lost all respect for you and from this on will never take your posts seriously. You are so wrong. The point that you can't do anything about ftilt grounded is that he won't do anything else. He runs the timer if you don't go through.

Ok don't listen to like, one of the best jigglypuff players that places better a lot of other Jigglypuff mains in a tournament and beats MK's all the time. I just lose to characters like Snake, Olimar, and DDD.

I'll listen to my own advice and continue to do well with Jiggs while you don't listen to me and still do poorly with puff. Fine by me. You never had my respect to begin with.

Sorry but I don't take bull**** like that last post you made. You can disagree, but you don't need to be saying that I'm not good enough to be respected, I spend too much time trying to step up Jiggly's Metagame for that.

Make the matchup 100:0 Metaknight's Favor if all you Jiggly's are so butthurt by his ftilt and planking.

 

[-LzR-]

Mr. Can't handle the fact that he doesn't have a counter argument so he lost so he has to flame.

I am the best Jigglypuff player in my country sir. I just mean, you beating MK players can mean a few things:
1. The MK sucks
2. The MK is unaware of Jigglypuff tricks
3. You are very good.

Now those all combined end up with something that looks like an even MU.

 

[T-block]

No need to get personal guys. Jigglymaster, your input is definitely appreciated. I'm asking questions because I'm still not sure I understand what you mean. Ahvena, opinions differ, but let's not resort to personal attacks, kay?

F-tilt hits on frame 3. That means you pretty much have to shield as he inputs the move. Out of a walk he can start f-tilt on any frame, and if you predict wrong and shield, you get grabbed. How are you predicting f-tilt consistently? Do you have vids you could link?

 

[-LzR-]

I never got to personal attacks. I just pointed out why I disagree and pointed out my reasons. Jigglymaster then proceeded to talk about my respect and fame and so on.
It's that I respect Jigglymaster. I have seen his guides and everything and he is good. But it's not like M2K can come here to talk about Jiggz, even thought he is good player because he probably knows nothing about Jigglypuff. Just mean that if Jigglymaster beats Meta Knights, it's because of his ability to read his opponents, ability to find weaknesses in those strategies. Just like San, good results, but that doesn't mean Ike goes 50-50 against Snake if he had a tough set with Ally.

I by all means didn't mean to insult or disrespect you Jigglymaster. I was just having an honest argument with you. We can keep on arguing. We are actually discussing the matchup. Even thought I may have less experience than you doesn't mean that you can beat MK's brickwalls easily.

 

[Frost94]

honestly puff wont stand a chance mk is 2 fast his d smash 8 frames around and for air game shuttle loop and fair

 

[-LzR-]

Dsmash is 5 frames and it's not a problem for Jiggz since it can't hit airborne opponents.

 

[Frost94]

if jiggs jumps to avoid it shuttle loop or fairs

 

[Frost94]

uair is 2 FRAMES!!!

 

[-LzR-]

Well that is just how to avoid the dsmash. Include and airdodge and you avoid a SL too! Simple, but requires a lot of prediction and skill like pretty much everything against MK.

 

[Frost94]

lol if u air dodge meta cud do a uair stringfollew by a nado