Match-Up Thread Export: Ganondorf

At The Highest Level Of Play, What is the MU Ratio?


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[FBC] Papa Mink

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#1
Guys, you know the drill.

This is what i've had pre written. It may be out dated.
I'll check later.


Neutral
---Summary---
**Low Tier



This makes me really sad to say, but I believe that the Ganon-Jiggly matchup is a 50/50. *sigh*. He’s a heavyweight and can kill at early percents. For god’s sake, jab can kill us. His heavy weight makes him easy to juggle in the air, which makes it easy to set up rest when high in the air, and it makes it easy to gimp. As we all know, Ganon’s recovery is without a doubt one of the sorriest things in this game. However, his shield game isn’t good, his grab range is worse and he can be set up for easy kills with a simple back throw. I wish I could I say that the match was more in our favor, but due to the power and difficulty to kill from land, it’s a 50:50.
Approaching Ganondorf can be difficult as well. Since his jab and Ftilt outrange our aerials we have to play either smart shield game or go from above. However if Ganon sees us coming from above he can easily SH Uair, so be careful for that. I have found that Rising Pound (since you become out of grab range) or Dair sets you up for more attacks from there. Jab is really good as a spacer (for ganon) so be careful of shield dashing and being spaced more and get shield ****ed.
Remember. GANON HAS NO WAY OF APPROACHING. THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO APPROACH. MAKE HIM COME TO YOU.

---Moves To Watch Out For---​

Jab​

–Jab is a combo breaker-
Jab has a lot of power and comes out pretty fast. It can serve as a combo breaker to most chaingrabs and even has kill potential. Though, we don’t have chain grabs obviously but I was merely using that as an example. The range on jab is comparable to our approaching aerials, which makes it hard for us to SH aerial him without waiting for a shielded attack. Best thing to do, when hit by it, give yourself some space and decide how to you want to approach him. See *Summary* for approaching information.


Fsmash​
Fsmash comes out pretty slow compared to most moves in the game, however it has crazy kill potential. It’ll kill mad early, yet another reason why it’s 50:50. I mean, if you see him charging a smash attack, the thought in your head should be “Well, I’m not going over there to even try to interfere… that’ll kill me pretty hard… I should charge a roll. Or go above him and punish the cooling lag with rest.” Because those are good options.

Ftilt​
Yet another good spacing/kill move from Ganondorf. There’s a small handful of attacks you should expect from ganondorf when youre standing infront of him: Jab, Ftilt, Down B, Side B. And maybe Fsmash if he feels lucky. If you can powershield it you might be able to follow up with a grab or dash attack as a good option. By forcing Ganondorf to approach you, you should see his options unfold. If you see him creeping his way over to you, expect a Ftilt, if youre approaching on the ground… you deserve it. When you see him set up, Get above him and do some Dairs. Kick him off the edge.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon’s Aerials

Bair
The back air will kill, but it has little range and bad ending lag.

Uair
This is probably one of Ganon’s better moves. It has good kill potential, comes out moderately fast, can be short hopped effectively, and has pretty good range. Air dodge it works, spacing and using Nair or pound is effective as well.

Fair
I look at it as a volleyball serve. You can definitely see it coming from a mile away, so just bait it, and punish. Even airdodge. The move has so much starting lag it’s crazy, and if he tries to SH it, the landing lag is terrible, so punish with something hard hitting, or getting him off the edge. Throw him.

Dair
This move, will kill you offstage at 0% (if you’ve used more than 2 jumps) without a doubt. This hits so hard it’s disgusting. It does approx 23% and can auto cancel on the ground. One of the more common moves you’ll see a ganondorf using. I’m not sure how many ganon’s you’ll see on your path to victory. But be aware that when you are spaced well, and you know an Uair wont hit him just get to the side of him and approach from there. 23% spike back to the stage isn’t worth it.
.​

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Down-B
This is one of the few approaches or punishments ganon might use for a missed aerial. Just know you can Nair… or shield grab this attack and you should be fine. However, if he tried to do this attack in the air, the opening frames can spike you pretty hard… Though, you should see it coming. In the air, approach ganon from.. well… any angle. If he does a double jump to get above you, you know this attack or Dair is coming. Keep in mind ganon’s will use the extra startup frames to try to get you spot dodge, this will and can kill you.


Side B
This attack is one of ganons few.. suicide and combo moves. If he manages to ground Side B you, he can set up for a jab, Dtilt or ftilt if you don’t get out of the way. He can also read which way you are going to roll and follow up with another side B. The best thing to do is do a get up attack , or just stand up. If Ganon thinks youre going to do a get up attack he might shield and you can immediately do a grab.
Now, if he does this attack in the air and it lands, it’s an automatic death when off the edge. And a suicide for ganondorf. You can bait this attack by jumping out and coaxing Ganon to do an attack and making his recovery options even worse. If he uses Side B and isn’t near the edge, he’s auto dead. Though, gimping is equally as easy if he’s close to the edge. Nair, Fair. He wont get back.


Moves that kill:

Warlock Punch – duck it please. If not, it will kill at 20% with no DI

Ftilt – 100%

Fsmash – kills around 70% without DI

Utilt – 40%

Fair – 90-95% from halfway high.

Uair – kills at 80% offstage

Dair – 70% without DI. (grounded)

Usmash – 85%


Moves to kill with:
1. Utilt kills at 139%

2. From center final D, Fair kills at 130%

3. Rest will kill at 76%

4. Fsmash will kill at 112%

5. Usmash will kill at 130%

6. Rolllout will kill at 85%


---Jigglypuff’s Advatages---​

1. It is so easy to kill Ganon off the edge. Just wait for him to approach you, and punish with a gimp. It’s so easy to kill ganon that’s not even funny. How many nairs does it take to kill Ganon? 1 to take away his jump, and one to stop his up+B. Then grab the edge. Done.

2. Ganon always to approach you, and if he tries to charge a smash attack, the cooling lag is so bad that you can punish with a rollout or a rest. Though, for most smash attacks rollout is probably the optimal choice, so you don’t get punished too hard for missing rest.

3. You can duck warlock punch :D
 
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#2
No way in hell this is 50-50. It's a solid advantage for Jigglypuff.

Ganondorf might do okay on Final Destination or Norfair. On pretty much every other stage, it's just so hard for Ganondorf to hit Jigglypuff that the risk reward in approaching Jigglypuff is skewed in Jigglypuff's favour, even with how much punishment Ganondorf gives out.
 

DLA

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#5
Every Jigglypuff I've ever fought plays this matchup horribly, horribly wrong. In other words, they don't go for the time out lol.

If you play this matchup straight up, it's 50:50. Ganon's aerials really hurt Jigglypuff, and even if Jiggz wins 3/4 of the exchanges, Ganon's still going to kill faster.

Keep in mind that Jiggz is a tournament secondary for me, so I'm speaking from experience on both sides.

Edgeguarding Ganon is pretty easy--especially if you have practice--but remember that Jigglypuff's aerials really aren't disjointed and have a rather small range, so you're always at risk of getting side B'd, more so than most characters. The trick is to grab the ledge so that you force Ganon to use up B to recover instead of side B. Then you can use your ledge invincibility frames to drop off Bair, Nair, or Dair. All 3 of them really screw Ganon over. Nair completely beats out up B, so you can just repeatedly Nair his up B attempts. I've gotten 5 Nairs in a row lol.

Rest is never really worth it, since he can kill you at pretty much any %.

It's really easy to punish Ganon's landings with aerials/aerial pound, since Ganon really doesn't have an aerial he can safely land with.


All of this is probably making the matchup sound really easy, but you gotta remember the Ganon factor. He has ****** strength. And you're as light as a balloon. (anyone ever wonder why balloons have really low knockback IRL? Makes you wonder...)

Saying "DERP GANON IS STRONG" sounds like a scrub argument, but you need to understand. Good Ganon players have a deftly sculpted sense of punishment. We see punishments that lesser men cannot. This is how we win matches, and this is why we haven't quit this god awful character yet. Because when Ganon punishes, it fkin hurts. And the only way to avoid getting hurt by Ganon is to be a pacifist. Don't approach, AT ALL.

Quite frankly, Jigglypuff's aerials aren't nearly good enough to dominate Ganondorf anywhere (except offstage). Ganondorf is a punisher, so don't give him any opportunities to punish and he will have a really hard time doing anything. Sure, go for the timeout. Why not? I'm not gonna lie and say there's no shame in timing out a Ganondorf, but at least it's less shameful than losing to a Ganondorf.

If you have this mindset, the matchup starts quickly climbing to 70:30 or better for Jigglypuff.



Having said that--when I'm Jiggz, I'm completely comfortable going aggro as **** against Ganondorf. But that's just because I wreck Ganondorfs lol.
 

Grim Tuesday

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#6
Ganondorf can't really penetrate our zone. If we just spam SH bair, there isn't much he can do. You should be ducking whenever you get the opportunity because there isn't really a reason not to, we can duck under half of his moves :p

He gets juggled and combo'd really easily, so I try and punish his lag at low percents with a SH Uair > anything.

His recovery is easily gimped with any of our aerials...

There really isn't much Ganon can do in this match-up, just play defensive and make sure you don't get hit. Once you get the lead, run away and he'll never catch you.

I'd put it as a -3 for Ganon.

Mink u crazy, it is very obviously not even and very obviously a large advantage for Jigglypuff.
 

DLA

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#8
Spamming SH bair doesn't work lol. Saying Ganon can't get around that is pretty absurd... it's a non-disjointed move with a small hitbox. Ganon can beat it with any of his aerials/dash attack/wizkick/pretty much anything else he spaces correctly.

Jigglypuff can duck under half of Ganon's moveset, but she still gets hit by the other half. Ducking against Ganon means you get flame choked, which usually means at least 1/4th of Jiggly's stock.

SH uair -> anything works well against Ganon at low %'s, but at most it will do around 30%. Not a huge deal.
 

DLA

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#10
Yes I think he can. However I'm pretty sure a fresh dash attack will kill Jiggz earlier than a fresh Ftilt out of flame choke in most situations.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#11
Does IDA always work when Ftilt does?

Also is there specific buffering for that?
I've been trying to get it to work on TL and CF but for some reason i guess i'm not timing it right.
 

DLA

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#12
Yes, they both take 10 frames to come out, as well as Dtilt.

To buffer iDA during Gerudo, you need to dash, then let go of the control stick, then tap C-stick down. All within the 10 frame buffer window before Gerudo ends. It takes some practice, because if you mess up, you're going to do a Dsmash instead, and probably get punished for it lol.
 

-LzR-

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#13
From my experience, Puff rapes, but it's not easy to ****. One mistake and you are in for some pain.
Again, from my experience, Ganons best move in this MU is dash attack. It seems to mess with my spacing pretty effectively.

Don't fall for stupid dairs or gerudos. Fair out of his upB.
Dair eats his recovery badly and so on.
We have some pretty good Ganons around in Finland, but none really know the Puff MU well so I am biased and won't say more for now. :3
 

Supreme Dirt

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#14
80:20 Puff's favour.

If you go Aggro though, it's 50:50 and possibly even 55:45 Ganon's favour.

CAMP THE HELL OUT OF US.

Get a stock lead and time us the hell out.

Seriously, this is one of our more frustrating MUs.

I'll go more into it tomorrow, today I don't have internet for long.



Oh using the new system +4 :jigglypuff:
 

-LzR-

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#15
It's so hard to resist comboing Ganon :(
I usually get punish by DA and the MU gets pretty even for me. Next time I'll camp.
Until then, I cannot really say anything informative since I have played this MU wrong.
 

G~P

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#16
i can imagine this being about 55:45 or 60:40 jiggs favour. shes obviously floats about all day, and generally makes life hard for ganon to hit her. with that being said. if ganon managed to get about 5 hits on jiggs, with the last having any sort of KO potential/flame choke. then there goes a stock, he doesnt have to land hits often to get the kill
still, i only use one of these two, and the other is neverever used in the UK XD
 

DLA

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#17
Saying it's +3 or +4 for jigglypuff is kind of meaningless, because I'm willing to bet only about 5% of all Jigglypuffs are actually willing to time Ganon out.

I mean has anyone here ever actually timed out a Ganondorf? I've played Ganon since 08 and I haven't been timed out once. Even in friendlies when both of us are going for the timeout lol. Both sides just take too much damage.
 

G~P

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#18
that, and pride takes over, no-one wants to show that they have to time out ganon to win
 

Grim Tuesday

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#20
Saying it's +3 or +4 for jigglypuff is kind of meaningless, because I'm willing to bet only about 5% of all Jigglypuffs are actually willing to time Ganon out.

I mean has anyone here ever actually timed out a Ganondorf? I've played Ganon since 08 and I haven't been timed out once. Even in friendlies when both of us are going for the timeout lol. Both sides just take too much damage.
Irrelevant.

The MU ratio may be meaningless, but it is accurate.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#21
I agree with DLA on this one.

I think that if puff is camping, it's a great advantage for us.
Once we hit, just wait for the approach.

Then run away and punish for 7min and 55 seconds.
 

IhaveSonar

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#22
I'd put this as +2. All we have to do is play smart, wait for Ganon to approach and make a mistake, and then combo/gimp him off the stage.


It's only even if the Jigglypuff gets too cocky and says "0mg th!s is gan0nd0rf he$ $0 n0t L337 i can pwN him lolololz wait WTFFF WHY I DIE AT 20%"
 

DLA

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#23
Let me stress, a camping puff isn't a big deal for Ganondorf. By camping I mean waiting for him to approach so you can punish.

Ganons know how to deal with campers, and there are many many characters who are much much better at it than Jigglypuff.

It's still a very even matchup if Puff is doing that kind of camping. There are very few situations in which Jigglypuff can "wait for a mistake and combo ganon off the stage and gimp him"--this isn't melee. Saying things like that is a severe generalization of the matchup and really isn't even a bit true. Jigglypuff does not have a safe punish game against Ganondorf. He has the tools to deal with it; honest.

It's when the Jigglypuff doesn't even try to punish that the matchup becomes horrible for Ganon. If Jigglypuff can time MK out by completely avoiding him, imagine how hard it is for Ganon to deal with. Jigglypuff can air camp, offstage camp, and ledge camp Ganon so that there's really no feasible way for him to touch her. Assuming Jiggz has the lead, this makes for an embarrassingly easy win. That is, if you are willing to dishonor your ancestors by timing out a Ganondorf.
 

G~P

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#25
i think that we should settle this with hype
ganon vs. jiggs crews at apex. standard rules, smashville only (or starter, whatever) 3 stocks each

anyone with me?
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#27
Okay guys, i'm going to put up the poll.

Keep in mind that the poll will be accounted for the puff and ganon to be playing at the HIGHEST point of the MU. This involves the time out.

I believe that jigglypuff can do some dirty work in this MU. The thing is, especially in this MU, you need to retract ALL your aerials. Watch out for DA and Uair. Out of flame choke he can kill us relatively early. So try to dodge being on the ground at high percents. Especially if it's a good ganon and they can Instant Dash Attack or Ftilt out of flame choke. When it comes to puff, we need to go for the time out and be strong about it. Winning with puff at the highest level play, involves time outs alot of the time.

Does Ganon have any releases on puff?
 

-LzR-

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#28
Ganondorf will have a very very hard time successfully hitting us with sideB.
We can also rest most of his laggy moves with easy if he gets greedy, just watch out for the fist :S
I would never actually rest a Ganondorf in a serious match. I rather just time em out.
 

Vermanubis

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#30
80:20 Puff's favour.

If you go Aggro though, it's 50:50 and possibly even 55:45 Ganon's favour.

CAMP THE HELL OUT OF US.

Get a stock lead and time us the hell out.

Seriously, this is one of our more frustrating MUs.

I'll go more into it tomorrow, today I don't have internet for long.



Oh using the new system +4 :jigglypuff:
Can't tell if you're being serious, SD. o_O

In my opinion, it's 55:45-60:40. It's frustrating as hell, but it's perfectly doable. Jigg's greatest asset in the MU is her ability to weave to the front and back of Ganon, limited his mode of escape/attack. Truthfully, OoS UAir/NAir is going to be your best option against a Jiggs laying it on thick. It requires patience on Ganon's end. Your moves will get stale, and it will be, as laughable as it is, hard to kill Jiggs, as you won't be landing any kill moves, really. That aside though, if you keep a tight defense and take advantage of blind spots during Jigg's aerial assaults, you'll do well.

Jigg's strengths are obviously her ability avoid just about every kill move Ganon has, her ability to gimp and her ability to stall. She has more of a psychological advantage in the MU than anything. She still has the upper hand on killing us (most of the time, by virtue of aforementioned reasons) and can pressure us thousands of times better than we can her. It's a pretty stalemate MU if you ask me. If Jiggs does anything on the ground, she risks serious damage, but if she's in the air, it's a game of cat and mouse--who drops their defense/leaves a spot open first? I'll admit that rollout is a huge help to Jiggs in the MU though. Ganon has really ****ty air-time, so if a Jiggs wants stall it out and roll back and forth a few times, Ganon's either gonna have to rely on uncomfortably clutch timing, or his ****ty air time.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#31
Good write up.

Thank you very much verm.
What are ganon's best stages?

As, playing Ganon ALOT i can say that i personally, hate yoshi's island. I can't do any autocancelled Dairs or Uairs there. I feel like it would **** up ground game alot.
What neutrals would be bad for him vs jiggs?

And what should we ban as a CP?
 

Vermanubis

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#33
I'm curious as to why. She has a solid advantage, but nothing like actual 80:20s like Marth. You just have to keep that shield up and know when to do an aerial OoS. It requires clutch timing and spacing, but if you're patient, it's within reach.

@Mink: Our best CP would be Battlefield. It gives Jiggs a ****load less room to stall and aircamp. It also puts a lot of pressure on her when shield pressuring us, since she can only attack at a certain height. I'd say ban FD. Yoshi's is actually good, since it's not like you'll be using ground moves anyway, and the platform ****s up her air camping.
 

Vermanubis

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#35
Well, like DLA said, Jiggs plays a dangerous game if she tries to time us out. Unlike someone like Sonic, she can escape by virtue of a finite number of jumps, and when said number terminates, she's at huge risk for being hit. Jiggs can't land for crap when she's out of jumps, so if she tries to run the clock by floating away, she's constantly under immense pressure unless it's RC or something.
 

Grim Tuesday

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#37
Well, like DLA said, Jiggs plays a dangerous game if she tries to time us out. Unlike someone like Sonic, she can escape by virtue of a finite number of jumps, and when said number terminates, she's at huge risk for being hit. Jiggs can't land for crap when she's out of jumps, so if she tries to run the clock by floating away, she's constantly under immense pressure unless it's RC or something.
Only a bad air camper uses up all of their jumps while rising.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#38
Okay.

So stages that puff doesn't want to see Ganon on would be Battlefield and Yoshi's.
I personally view CS as a good ganon stage.

And you would ban FD against puff?

What are your worst CPs?
I remember reading brinstar because of the lava always gettin' ya.
But i'm scared of the extended hitboxes.
WIll you ban rainbow?
 
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