Match-Up Thread Export: Falco

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

It seems this is the new MU discussion.


I'll post my MU info here.

-1 (Voted)​

---Summary---​

Spoiler

I don’t’ believe Falco has an advantage over Jigglypuff in this matchup. Falco is fairly lightweight so he can die easily around 100%. He has ranged attacks ie reflector and lasers but the reflector shouldn’t come out often against us, and we can duck lasers if we need to. One of Falco’s biggest gimmicks is the chain grab.. which doesn’t work on jigglypuff. He can tech chase us by knowing where we are going to go after the downthrow but that’s it.

Falco also cannot kill very easily which a lot of people may disagree with. Falco has three kill moves if you’re under the 115% range. You can find them below in the moves that kill range. Next to the kill potential moves I put what percent they will kill you at WITHOUT DI. Falco’s recovery is very poor and leaves them open for an easy opportunity for them to get gimped. Finally, Falco’s aerials are below average and jigglypuff beats falco in the air. This fight is very very very very hard. It takes alot of patience. You cannot be aggressive in this MU. Force falco to come after you and hopefully chase you off the edge. Gain the lead. You will NOT outclass falco on the ground. This match is ALL about baiting.

Summary From The Export

Spoiler

In conjunction with the information i have listed in here we have come to this: We will never be able to beat Falco on the ground, we have to beat him in the air and gain the lead. We are simply outclassed on the ground. Falco's jab is ridiculous. If we crouch when we get hit by the first, and he follows with the 2nd one, we can crouch cancel into a rest. Being able to rest something is not a viable option unless you're lower than 60% and he's over 72%. Normally, just DI away and start over from a neutral point. Falco's Nair is really obnoxious and will punish you for being on platforms above you.

The best stages would be to strike FD and SV. Falco can control those stages way too easily. You need room to run away and platforms to avoid lasers and bait jumps. Personally i think that Castle Siege / PS1 are our very good, PS1 gives us a lower cieling and areas to run. Same with CS, but the 2nd and 3rd transformations are slightly dukie for jigglypuff.

Yoshi's and Lylat are both good because they can protect from lasers. But with YI, Falco can control the stage very easily. If you have the option between these two, go with lylat because of the stage shifting. Not only does it help with the laser thing, but it screws up falco's recovery.

The following is something we should start doing as well. This is an awesome idea.Except with crouching instead of pikmin of course.

As Olimar, if I have the lead on Falco, I'll play near the ledge and spam Pikmin, forcing Falco to approach, and making it risky to use Phantasm. I supposed Jiggs can do the same thing, except with crouch.

More useful things by Blissard: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13229949&postcount=35

​

---Moves To Watch Out For---​

Jab -> Grab​

–Jab comes out on Frame 2-
A Very common falco technique is the jab to grab combo. At low percents the grab can lead to a variety of things. For example it can lead to:
--Regrab if you airdodge or decide to land and shield. Or if you try to land behind them.
--Another jab.
--DACUS
It’s not nearly as good as marth’s follow ups but Falco does have many options. The best thing I have found after being Downthrown is to simply float off. Throughout the entire match you have time to get back in falco’s face. You have no need to land back on the ground for another grab. Get above falco. Falco’s aerial game should scare him off into not chasing you.​

Lasers​

Lasers can be very hard to deal with, but if you know what you are doing they shouldn’t give you that much trouble. For one, falco’s lasers ALWAYS make you face towards them when in the air. So Bair approaching is going to be difficult. You can duck the lasers but that might lead to falco shooting repetitive lasers over your head. At this point you have 4 options that I have discovered. Decide which works best for your situation:

1. Shield and powershield dash your way to get in falco’s face.
2. Shield and allow the lasers to push you safely onto the ledge where you will have ledge invincibility, thus not being hurt.
3. Time a jump (when the lasers directly above you) to jump between lasers.
4. Take a laser to the face.
5. Floating beats lasers. So use that to your advantage​

DACUS/Usmash​

–First hitbox comes out on frame 8-
The Dacus is a kill move for sure. For those who don’t know what a DACUS is, it’s a dash attack cancelled upsmash. Which is another term for an upsmash that slides from halfway across the stage. (mortar slide). A common way for Falco to use the dacus is after a SH’ed laser, buffered into a DACUS so the hitstun will allow for a safe hit from falcos upsmash. The Usmash does lose kill potential. Especially once you start hitting the 80-90 area and Falco is looking for that kill. You can punish the Dacus with a shield->SH -> Nair/Fair. Another choice is pound, though the ending lag when it hits falco’s shield can lead to an OOS usmash.

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​

Falco’s Aerials: Don't Be Scared​

Bair

–first hits out on frame 4-
The back air is one of Falco’s kill moves. It’s a sex kick. It comes out on frame 4 and the opening frames will kill. While the sex kick is lingering it doesn’t have kill potential just minor knockback. Just counter it with pound or go around it. It’s a hard move to land.​

Nair
–first hits out on frame 3-
is mostly used for pressure with short hops. At least as far as I’VE seen it used. On battlefield for example, Falco’s will SH through the platforms to Nair shield pressure or to force you off of the platform. Don’t try to beat it because the only move we could try to use is Dair and it’s not worth taking percents.

Fair
–first hits out on frame 6-
Never used. Be embarrassed when it hits you.

Dair
–first hits out on frame 5-
Used as a spike mostly. Don’t be predictable coming up off of the edge because he can punish you with it. If the falco has been “spike happy” try going in from the side, go down and rise up far enough Falco won’t want to come get you.​

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​

Fmash
–Hits on frame 16-18-
It’s used to tech chase or punish a predictable roll. It’ll only kill past 100%. Don’t worry too much over this one. Pound will beat it out. Just remember the hitbox on it is stupidly big, and on the backside. The ending lag is pretty hard on this attack. SH nair will be a good move to space.​

Phantasm​

This is one of Falco’s recovery moves. All attacks can hit through phantasm when timed correctly. Personally, I choose to use either pound or nair. If you it the nair, you can follow up with another nair or Fair depending on the percent. If it’s a higher percent the Fair should kill. Just know that Falco’s have a hard time getting back to the stage. Once you nair the phantasm they are going to try to do another one. Or at least drop down and try to use another one. Plan for this and punish it. This attack is the easiest to gimp Falco with.
​

Moves that kill:​

1. Bair will kill from center stage of Final D at 135% without DI. It will kill offstage (while you are recovering) at 100%.

2. Fsmash will kill at 100% from center stage.

3. Usmash/Dacus will kill at 95%.

4. Utilt kills around the same time as Usmash.

Moves to kill with:​

1. Utilt kills at 125%

2. From center final D, Fair kills at 113%

3. Rest will kill at 72%

4. Fsmash will kill at 100%

5. Usmash will kill at 104%

6. Rolllout will kill at 75%

---Jigglypuff’s Advatages---​

1.Punishing phantasm.
This is probably my favorite part of the matchup. Not only does this make the match more difficult for falco but it discourages falcos from chasing you on the sides of the stage. One bad screw up, regardless of perfent and they are dead.

2. Laser game.
Since we are an aerial character we can do well against the lasers. We can also duck below the lasers. They are still a pain but it’s something that every character has to deal with and we have a slight advantage over other characters.

3. Grab game.
Jigglypuff has great grab game. Her grab reach is awesome compared to other low tier characters and all throws do 10%, with 3% pummels. Punish short hopped Dairs or misplaces smashes with a backthrow and then punish them off the edge.

4. Grab release to death.
This is not as easy to do. But it’s useful. When Falco is short hopping his lasers if you can manage to dash grab him and hold him over the edge until he is grab released the only thing that he can do is fire-falco. The phantasm will be released underneath the stage so he will die. Time the fire falco correctly and edgehog him.

---Jiggly Vs Falco videos---​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0E6U9U6Zps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeSdZu8ZHRo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPs7zaHeOOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C9Uf95Ml_o

Me Vs Xaltis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9cN95BI_Ng
^^ More recent.

Feel free to discuss.

 

[-LzR-]

The combination of lasers and jabs make it incredibly hard to get through Falcos Defense. That is the reason I think the MU is at least -2 for us. More later.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I would put this match-up at -2.

Falco's jab at close range and lasers at long range make spacing much more difficult than normal, and his smashes are relatively easy to land against Puff and KO her early. Jigglypuff's poor ground speed limits her ability to chase Falco after Illusion (assuming we don't punish it on reaction because we are too close or something) and his close-range dash dance/fox trot stuff.

However, we can capitalize a lot on our hits. It is relatively easy to land Rest against Falco, he falls into combos easily and is obviously very easy to gimp.

In terms of a guide, I wouldn't have anything else to say except what Mink already said.I there is no ledge-grab limit, plank as soon as you have the lead and react to Falco's ONLY anti-planking tool (if you can even call it that), run-off bair by air-dodging > gimp or just drifting back to the ledge.

I don't play this match-up differently to any other match-ups, it just requires a little more caution and defensive play. This match-up is definitely a mental battle for both players.

 

[-LzR-]

If Falco is at kill % and he jabs you, it's a free rest most of the time. After a while they stop jabbing at kill %, making it a lot easier for you.
If it weren't for the jab this would be a lot easier. You can actually force an approach against Falco if you crouch, but it's nothing too great.
Watch out for bair, it beats our everything and is stupid fast and powerful. If he Dthrows you at 100%+, DI up so his DACUS won't hit you. He can still bair out of it though, but not as powerful.

 

[DellSmashman]

Don't get gimped and Falco wins. If Jigglypuff gets a comfortable lead, plank Flacko until he approaches. That is all.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Low percent combos happen to us from falco and it's really annoying. One D-throw has many follow ups. At early percents they can DThrow, Dacus for a 3 hit combo (both hits of Dacus). They can Dthrow to Dair and then read a Fsmash or Dacus deoending on your roll (most annoying).

Lasers aren't too bad in this mu because we can duck them or fly around. What i find to be annoying is phantasm. I personally, can't nair on impulse andif i try to nair OOS, i get hit because i time it wrong. We should be punishing every single phantasm. At high percents we need to float around.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THIS MU is to get the lead. That's something i need to work on for sure.

If Falco is at kill % and he jabs you, it's a free rest most of the time. After a while they stop jabbing at kill %, making it a lot easier for you.
If it weren't for the jab this would be a lot easier. You can actually force an approach against Falco if you crouch, but it's nothing too great.
Watch out for bair, it beats our everything and is stupid fast and powerful. If he Dthrows you at 100%+, DI up so his DACUS won't hit you. He can still bair out of it though, but not as powerful.

I agree. That jab ****s up alot of our approaches. ALOT of them.

I would put this match-up at -2.

Falco's jab at close range and lasers at long range make spacing much more difficult than normal, and his smashes are relatively easy to land against Puff and KO her early. Jigglypuff's poor ground speed limits her ability to chase Falco after Illusion (assuming we don't punish it on reaction because we are too close or something) and his close-range dash dance/fox trot stuff.

However, we can capitalize a lot on our hits. It is relatively easy to land Rest against Falco, he falls into combos easily and is obviously very easy to gimp.

In terms of a guide, I wouldn't have anything else to say except what Mink already said.I there is no ledge-grab limit, plank as soon as you have the lead and react to Falco's ONLY anti-planking tool (if you can even call it that), run-off bair by air-dodging > gimp or just drifting back to the ledge.

I don't play this match-up differently to any other match-ups, it just requires a little more caution and defensive play. This match-up is definitely a mental battle for both players.

Well stated.

Don't get gimped and Falco wins. If Jigglypuff gets a comfortable lead, plank Flacko until he approaches. That is all.

We will never get gimped by Falco. If you did, you're bad. Haha. Personally, i'm not a supporter of planking, i'm a supporter of camping and being smart.


AS FOR STAGES:

I feel that it is necessary to have a stage where you can avoid lasers. IF we're using the Unity Ruleset than our neutrals would appear as this:

Final D
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Pokemon Stadium 1

The order of the bans is 3-2-1 if i'm not mistaken.
So, assuming you choose first, i would ban Final D, Smashville and Battlefield. These 3 stages are Laser Prime Time. Theres not much you can about Falco on these stages, camping wise. It's really annoying.

Lylat:
It has a really high cieling, making it easier to live from Uair, Usmash and Utilt. The curve of the stage makes his recover **** up, and it makes his lasers and phantasm not as useful. Though, Falco's usually ban this one too. You can utilize the ability to go under the stage because most falcos won't follow you under here. It's not like SV where you always know how you can get back... The stage could easily flow against falco and we'd be fine. The 3 platforms are good for platform camping due to the shape of the stage. Falco's double jump lasers won't be as easy and may get ****ed up.

Yoshi's:
The curve on the sides and in the middle of the stage make lasers easier to avoid, though if you try to crouch on the left or right of the stage, falco can shoot low lasers from the same point on the other side of the stage. The only downside about this stage is your inability to go underneath. You have a single platform to play around with, and it moves around. I generally use this platform for rollout shenanigans. Such as baiting a jump with my rollout, or shooting up with my rollout. Though, this stage is played much like any other neutral. Lasers just aren't as annoying.

Castle Siege:
This or PS1, i believe, are our best options against falco as far as neutrals. The reasoning is that both of these stages keep falco's lasers/phantasming at a minumum. We also have a stage to **** around with. Without a good stage, this match is easily a -2 or -1 (such as final D... **** That).

First Transformation:
The firsst tranformation is set up as:

The only thing annoying about this MU is when you're near D. If falco is over at C then all the lasers will hit you. You need to control the stage by staying near A or C. If you're on A then falco will either laser you, or jump nair you from beneath the platform. You can NOT rest interupt nair, i've tested it. Falco can also reteat this easily enough that it's safe every time. Stay on either C, or B. By being on B it forces falco to either go to D or to A. By baiting that change of positions, you can use that to your advabtage.
Oh Also, when you're near C. You have a stage spike waitin' for ya.

2nd Transformation:

This is our stage if we have the lead. We can float between A and B. B is the safest, due to A having C right there. If we don't have the lead, Falco won't care. and will more than likely try to force you to either E or G. His lasers don't go through the statues (Represented by Blue). Which means that F is safe for us during this. If we attempt to approach falco from the ground when he's at either E or G we will more than likely be phantasmed. Be careful of being thrown into the deathbox. Falco's usually use the statue for Fsmash and Jab, from what i've seen. The most bountiful thing we can do is to dair. Though i would highly recommend you pull a Dapuffster and jab many many times on this statue. That way all your moves are fresh.
tl;dr if you have the lead, camp hard. If you don't try to stay in F or approach from the air, assuming falco is camping at E or G.

Final Transformation:

This is basically final D. Aka, a bunch of bull****. You have no advantage here. Just... do your best. Hopefully the lylat cruise-ish turning will help you out a bit, but you're going to get camped. Do your best to plank during this because you will not win on this transformation. If anyone has tips for here, by all means give them. But i personally hate this.

Loading stages.
This is your chance to put falco in a bad position so that when the stages (1 and 3) load he can be offstage and be forced to recover using his choreographied recovery tools.


Going to get pizza. Will do PS1 later.

 

[DellSmashman]

I meant the Falco himself on the gimping part, obviously, lol. Other than that, pretty much the matchup.

Also, dunno why I didn't state this as way, but I'm not telling everyone to resort to the planking strategy. Patience is a good playstyle to have, along with aggressiveness. It's just important to use everything your character has to offer, especially if it's matchup specific. Limiting yourself to only one type of play in a matchup would only restrict how better you'll be at the matchup, not to mention as a player.

Agreed with -2, btw.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Well, the planking comment was mostly aimed at Grim, he says puffs great at planking (which, she's okay with). But we have more to offer than just planking.

 

[Xaltis]

So were talking about what now?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

We're talking about stage discussion, and the fight in general. I really think that this is stage and camp dependent. This is a decent high tier MU for us.

As a top player, please tel me what you think. And you've played y puff before so you can say you've actually had SOME exp.

 

[Xaltis]

We're talking about stage discussion, and the fight in general. I really think that this is stage and camp dependent. This is a decent high tier MU for us.

As a top player, please tel me what you think. And you've played y puff before so you can say you've actually had SOME exp.

I actually think against MK you wanna start on like Yoshis maybe. FD will be striked BF and SV are bad for Falco vs MK and Lylat is bad for Falco. So Yoshi's might be the best starter.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

We're talking about Falco -.-

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well, the planking comment was mostly aimed at Grim, he says puffs great at planking (which, she's okay with). But we have more to offer than just planking.

I say she is great at it because she can invalidate a lot of low and mid tiers with it. It heavily increases your chances of winning a tourney cause you don't have to deal with low tier gimmicks that you aren't used to, you just get the lead and plank.

I do the same thing with Meta Knight on stages like Smashville, scrooging below the stage and tornado'ing above the platform.

 

[Xaltis]

We're talking about Falco -.-

Yea...thats why I talked about his MU against MK... lol

 

[Blissard]

Just tested a bunch of grabs on slants, hoping that Puff would get Falco to air release on one of them, but she's just too short

The boost grab while Falco SHDLs is great and all, but extremely situational.

As Olimar, if I have the lead on Falco, I'll play near the ledge and spam Pikmin, forcing Falco to approach, and making it risky to use Phantasm. I supposed Jiggs can do the same thing, except with crouch.

As for planking the whole match, it depends on if you want to have fun, or you want to net an easy win. There are indeed times where Jiggs benefits largely from planking, but I can't stand to do it the whole match cause it makes the game unfun, and if I'm using it to avoid a gimmick I'm not used to, then I'd never learn to avoid it And when MK does it, it's like double dirtiness since he has more than enough options to counter any given situation.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Im no pro puff nor do I even use her much, but it seems to me that Falco is the easiest of the top tiers, and even counting high tiers, hes definitely one of the easiest for Puff.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Just tested a bunch of grabs on slants, hoping that Puff would get Falco to air release on one of them, but she's just too short

The boost grab while Falco SHDLs is great and all, but extremely situational.

As Olimar, if I have the lead on Falco, I'll play near the ledge and spam Pikmin, forcing Falco to approach, and making it risky to use Phantasm. I supposed Jiggs can do the same thing, except with crouch.

As for planking the whole match, it depends on if you want to have fun, or you want to net an easy win. There are indeed times where Jiggs benefits largely from planking, but I can't stand to do it the whole match cause it makes the game unfun, and if I'm using it to avoid a gimmick I'm not used to, then I'd never learn to avoid it And when MK does it, it's like double dirtiness since he has more than enough options to counter any given situation.

Agreed. I like your staying near the edge idea. Thats really good, i never thought of that. It does require falco to approach and we aren't necessarily going to get ****ed up.

Also wou said about planking is true. I don't feel good at all when i plank

Im no pro puff nor do I even use her much, but it seems to me that Falco is the easiest of the top tiers, and even counting high tiers, hes definitely one of the easiest for Puff.

It's without a doubt easier than Snake and G&W

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well, as I've said before, I don't use Puff because she is my most fun character, she's just my best (along with MK). I don't even really enjoy Brawl's gameplay, I play it for teh moneyz and because I like practicing to get better at things.

tl;dr I don't feel dirty doing any gay ****.

 

[-LzR-]

Falco is my most experienced matchup in Braw by far. Still I can't do **** with Puff. I think this MU requires different kind of gameplay. A single whiffed move will get punished, but as long as you don't whiff, you should do fine.

 

[juiey2]

IMO, Falco > Jigg on ground game
Forward smash range of falco is very big
Falco can shield grab jigg aerials
Jigg ground game is very slow and his fastest smash attack is down smash.

But in air game, Falco is SCREWED.

Because if falco shield all the time, he'll get grabbed, and will take a wall of pain with him, 'cuz his 2 recoverys (Side b and up b) have very slow start up and his airdodge suck (This wouldn't be a problem, for some reason, people can't airdodge jigg aerials).

Jigg 60:40 Falco

 

[Blissard]

IMO, Falco > Jigg on ground game

There honestly isn't a character worst than Puff on ground game.

Falco can shield grab jigg aerials
Jigg ground game is very slow and his fastest smash attack is down smash.

Your aerials shouldn't be shield-grabbed unless you space them poorly. Retreat your bairs and crossover your dairs. Dsmash is a troll move, and it's only 2-3 frames faster than the other smashes; has higher cooldown than Fsmash too. Also Jiggs is a girl

But in air game, Falco is SCREWED.

How so? SHDL keeps us at bay. His bair can outspace our aerials, and nair is terrific for applying pressure.

Because if falco shield all the time, he'll get grabbed, and will take a wall of pain with him, 'cuz his 2 recoverys (Side b and up b) have very slow start up and his airdodge suck (This wouldn't be a problem, for some reason, people can't airdodge jigg aerials).

Falco doesn't have a bad airdodge. And people CAN indeed air dodge her aerials (WoP doesn't exist unless you're facing like...Zelda) Really, in this MU, Falco is the one applying the pressure, not us. We have a huge advantage when he's offstage though

Jigg 60:40 Falco

EDIT: Welcome to the Jigglypuff boards btw.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He's been spewing stupidity over the tactical discussion boards and the ban Meta Knight social group, too.

 

[Kaptain]

Blissard, that made me laugh..

 

[Blissard]

Anywayyyy back to intellectual discussion

For anyone who didn't watch the video on Crouch Cancelling in Brawl, basically crouching an attack gives you 1/3 less hitstun.

The reason I mention this is because it was discovered that Olimar could crouch cancel Falco's first jab, power shield the second, and get a free usmash.

Olimar's usmash comes out frame 8. Assuming we can also do this, the attacks listed in the Puff guide that are <8 frames are Jab (5-6) and Ftilt (7-9).

So I have a question: when you power shield, do you go through shield drop animation?

I was trying to calculate how the frames worked because I couldn't get this to work even with Olimar (I only tried for 5 minutes by pressing jab with my toe lol but continuing) but if anyone thinks it's valuable I can research it with Frame Advance.

Also I tried looking at the Falco Guide for jab hitstun...not particularly helpful since it doesn't list the jabs seperately, but it's:

Frame Breakdown

• Hits on: 2
• Shield hit lag: 6
• Shield stun: 7
• 1st jab total: 16
• 1st jab advantage: -13
• 2nd jab hits on: 10 (counting frame 1 as first frame of 1st jab)
• Linking to 2nd jab advantage: -7

Also I'll start using Puff more once I get better at this game cause I feel like a ***** when I keep talking about Olimar >.<
​

 

[Exegguter]

Offtopic : blissard is the only guy on these boards that makes me laugh 95% of the time xD



Ontopic: Aircamp falco if you got the lead.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Anywayyyy back to intellectual discussion

For anyone who didn't watch the video on Crouch Cancelling in Brawl, basically crouching an attack gives you 1/3 less hitstun.

The reason I mention this is because it was discovered that Olimar could crouch cancel Falco's first jab, power shield the second, and get a free usmash.

Olimar's usmash comes out frame 8. Assuming we can also do this, the attacks listed in the Puff guide that are <8 frames are Jab (5-6) and Ftilt (7-9).

So I have a question: when you power shield, do you go through shield drop animation?

I was trying to calculate how the frames worked because I couldn't get this to work even with Olimar (I only tried for 5 minutes by pressing jab with my toe lol but continuing) but if anyone thinks it's valuable I can research it with Frame Advance.

Also I tried looking at the Falco Guide for jab hitstun...not particularly helpful since it doesn't list the jabs seperately, but it's:

Frame Breakdown

• Hits on: 2
• Shield hit lag: 6
• Shield stun: 7
• 1st jab total: 16
• 1st jab advantage: -13
• 2nd jab hits on: 10 (counting frame 1 as first frame of 1st jab)
• Linking to 2nd jab advantage: -7

Also I'll start using Puff more once I get better at this game cause I feel like a ***** when I keep talking about Olimar >.<
​

To be completely honest, i understand the concept of each individual item in that list, though i'm not exactly sure frame-wise what that means. If that makes sense. I understand, but i don't comprehend. So hopefully my boy Ramses/Brosuke can meet me halfway on this one. My question, is if we can crouch cancel the first jab, can we DA or Rest? ZSS can DI through the jab and Uair falco. I don't know if this can apply to us however.

We need to keep in mind that finding out that rest can interupt a move, does NOT by ANY means make that a viable counter. Whenever we discover we can rest x move, we get excited, but viability wise, you'll be maybe getting 1 rest a set.

I want to have this MU wrapped up in <3 days if possible.

Then we can get started on the next one. I would prefer to see well organized thoughts instead of one liners please. This way i can take what you have to say seriously and you can have supporting arguments for both sides. I'll address the falco's of this short notice write up, and then i'll do my best to create a summary of the general consensus.

I am going to make a poll in the top of this thread for the rating of this MU.
I would like everyones honest opinions when answering.

Breakdown here.
[collapse="Brosuke's breakdown of the information above"]
[4:24:09 AM] Ramses: brawl has a form of crouch cancelling
[4:24:27 AM] Ramses: if you crouch and you get hit, you get 2/3rd the hitstun you would normally get
[4:24:31 AM] Ramses: so its reduced by 1/3rd
[4:24:33 AM] Ramses: alright?
[4:24:46 AM] Ramses: so
[4:24:49 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: So, if i'm in a crouch
[4:25:00 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: and i'm hit, then i recieve less hitstun?
[4:25:03 AM] Ramses: yes
[4:25:05 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: okay
[4:25:07 AM] Ramses: but it doesnt really mean jack**** in brawl
[4:25:14 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: haha
[4:25:14 AM] Ramses: because in this case
[4:25:21 AM] Ramses: its not just the hitstun reduction that gives olimar an upsmash
[4:25:30 AM] Ramses: its because he DI's down AND reduces hitstun
[4:25:55 AM] Ramses: which allows him to powershield the next jab
[4:25:57 AM] Ramses: powershield
[4:26:01 AM] Ramses: then upsmash oos
[4:26:10 AM] Ramses: or basicly, any attack under 8 frames FOR OLIMAR
[4:26:24 AM] Ramses: because powershielding allows you to negate the shielddrop animation
[4:26:37 AM] Ramses: effectively giving you 2 frames of lag, 1 for putting the shield up, 1 for taking it down
[4:26:51 AM] Ramses: but you cant compare this with jiggs
[4:27:15 AM] Ramses: because maybe she's so floaty that even if you reduce hitstun and DI down, she still doesnt hit the ground
[4:27:23 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: CORRECT
[4:27:23 AM] Ramses: if you dont hit the ground, you cant shield
[4:27:25 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: whoa caps.
[4:27:29 AM] Ramses: so yeah
[4:27:42 AM] Ramses: thats pretty much everything I guess?
[4:27:52 AM] Ramses: you can try like
[4:27:57 AM] Ramses: crouch cancel rest maybe?
[4:27:58 AM] Ramses: but that would require a terribly spaced jab
[4:28:10 AM] Ramses: so i wouldnt rely on it too much
[4:28:17 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: Okay.
[4:28:18 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: Thank you
[4:28:23 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: as for the frame breakdown
[4:28:37 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: whats the difference between shield hit lag
[4:28:39 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: and shield stun
[4:29:02 AM] Ramses: uhm
[4:29:12 AM] Ramses: one is that thing where you're both actually stunned
[4:29:13 AM] Ramses: like falcons knee
[4:29:18 AM] Ramses: and the other is hitstun
[4:29:23 AM] Ramses: like
[4:29:29 AM] Ramses: when zelda ****ing lightning kicks youre shield
[4:29:42 AM] Ramses: you get stunned while the impact goes on
[4:29:54 AM] Ramses: thats hit lag
[4:30:05 AM] Ramses: then theres the period in which zelda can move and you cant shield drop yet
[4:30:09 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: Ah okay
[4:30:26 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: So in this case, your shield stays up for 7 frameS?
[4:30:30 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: since theres 7 frames of shield stun?
[4:30:35 AM] Ramses: powershielding negates both
[4:30:37 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: Okay
[4:30:51 AM] Ramses: for you, that is
[4:30:53 AM] Ryan "Mink" Kane: is there shield drop frames on power shield? or is that the advantage of power shielding
[4:30:57 AM] Ramses: if zelda LK's your shield and you powershield
[4:31:00 AM] Ramses: she still get hit lag
[4:31:08 AM] Ramses: nope no shield drop frames
[4:31:09 AM] Ramses: well
[4:31:10 AM] Ramses: 1
[4:31:10 AM] Ramses: lol
[4:31:15 AM] Ramses: but thats input frame

[/collapse]
DO NOT VOTE IF YOU HAVE NO READ THIS MU INFORMATION. IT COULD LEAD TO BIASED OR UNINTELLIGENT VOTING, THUS CAUSING MISCALCULATIONS. IF YOU DONT HAVE A SAY, PLEASE DONT VOTE.

I ALSO CAN SEE WHO VOTES WHAT, AND I WILL TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION.

 

[Exegguter]

Oh also, do not walk in charged fsmashes if you're at a killing %. I know this sounds obvious, but most falcos tend to charge a fsmash and sometimes you walk in it just because you wanted to punish it with a fair/dash. Happened to me when I never played falcos the first two a three times.


Oh and most falcos spotdodge after they've down air. Take advantage of that.

Also what's 45-55 falco's favor? -1? Or 0?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

-1.

But... seriously guys? It is NOT -1.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

assume that -1 is slight disadvantage
while -2 is disadvantage and
-3 is serious disadvantage.

thats my general scale.
I personally think its even and i would change my vote.

If we played this character as she SHOULD be played, it would be even because we wouldn't be getting hit by that stupid ****ing jab so much.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Who are we discussing next, out of curiosity?

I'd like Marth or MK, please

 

[Noobicidal]

Who are we discussing next, out of curiosity?

I'd like Marth or MK, please

Ganon is next, and we're working our way up the tier list after him.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

^^ What this man said.

If you go into the General Discussion thread i will be announcing things there as for updates in all the new discussion exports. And you can join in the current discussion we're having about approaching.

 

[Blissard]

I'll do frame testing after my mom finishes watching Dennis the Menace, though don't expect anything useful coming out of it XD

Also fun fact, Ganon>Puff according to the Japanese, since she's dead last on their tier list.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Dear god.

We can duck half of ganon's moves.
-.-

 

[Blissard]

Sorry for the procrastination, but anyway:

I totally forgot that frame advance was solely for GCC since I haven't used it for ages. I play Wiichuck, and my GCC broke like 2 years ago and I've never bothered replacing it cause I hate using it for Brawl.

But I did do simple testing to make up for it:
Bad news:

Spoiler

Even with crouch cancelling, Puff doesn't make it back to the ground until Jab2 has already started. Either this, or it's pointlessly and ridiculously difficult and you have to have like a 0.016 second reaction time (which is the case with Olimar, who I managed to do it with...once...I think...).

Good News:

Spoiler

It's possible to crouch cancel the first jab into rest.
I'm not using mathematical frame data to support it because that Falco data looks slightly off, but in theory, Puff's Rest should activate the same time as Olimar's power shield would, since we get invincibility Frame 1.
The best part is, that it hits from a decent length too. A jab from Falco at max range can't be rested, but at midrange it'll work (as in...Puff doesn't actually have to be touching Falco when he initiates jab for it to work).
It's simple enough to perform: crouch, and when he jab1s you just spam rest. Wayyy harder in real time combat though. You'll have to get a hard read of the jab for it to work.

Yup...

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Seems legit.

 

[T-block]

Lylat Cruise doesn't have a high ceiling... pretty much the same height as BF/FD/SV. It's still a great stage to take Falco to though, imo.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Okay so i'll add a few quotes and stuff into my previously written MU for Falco.

Lets cover Starters and CP real fast though.

I would say best ban for falco would be Final D.
And the best starter against falco would be Yoshi's/Lylat. Or at least, strike FD and SV.

Falco is officially -1.

 

[Kaptain]

Also, you can rest a falco when he tries to dair out of down throw. At least I've done it before.

 

[-LzR-]

I doubt that is possible when Falco does it well.