Match-Up Re-Discussion: Lucario

[Sinister Slush]

Link For First Lucario Discussion
Lucario Vs Yoshi

Here we shall Discuss Yoshi vs Lucario, and why he's so Gay!​

Lucario Vs Yoshi Ratio: -3/Large Disadvantage
Yoshi Ratios
Lucario Ratios


Can Yoshi CG Lucario?: No
GR Options Off Stage: Full-Hop Egglay

Overall Summary


Lucario Vs Yoshi Videos


Ratio
Coming Soon

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEvD9H59ADA&t=4m30s

 

[Yikarur]

still figuring out this MU, playing it again next weekend with my teammate, refused to do so for months because even if I won from time to time the MU was no fun at all.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I actually dont mind playing this MU, it rarely ends in my favor though...

 

[EPsilon933]

Yoshi's like, Yoshi, who's kind of a bad character who's bad. Easy (for Lulu)

 

[Steam]

lucario honestly seems like he's unkillable in this matchup if he plays smart... but keep in mind since your DJ's armor is knockback based you can always tank through the first hit of dair with it. so you can get some kills that way... otherwise you'll probably have to get offstage kills or get a hard read.

also egg lay is really good. without it your landing gets abused hardcore and you outspaced in the air hardcore. and if you're going to lose to lucario at least land the most humiliating move in the game as much as possible IMO'

also lol at the picture. you could have found gayer that's SFW

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

We can gr egglay him at the ledge

 

[Z'zgashi]

Choose stages with little to no Platforms (FD, Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 1/2 etc.) Try and gimp him as fast as possible before he gets his Momentum.
USmash can eat through his Dair sometimes depending how strong his Aura is... You can Shieldgrab him out of his Fsmash (Though I believe for at his Strongest point of Aura, you need to SSDI)

And personally, I like stringing my moves with egglay since that's mostly the reason how i've killed Lucario at 110% max.

we need platforms to kill Lucario, seriously D:

FD is like our worst stage against him (beside of some ridiculous counterpicks if they're allowed)

Aura doesn't matter for dair vs. upsmash, our upsmash just doesn't win.

and you can't shieldgrab his fsmash at all. (not even powershielded)

I dunno, I did decent against Trela in friendlies. I was able to Shieldgrab his Fsmash
And to make sure it wasn't a fluke, I played another random Wolf player who was picking up Lucario and tried it against him a couple of times during our friendly set from a smashfest two weeks ago.

All I learned is, Camping works against him, though a barely charged Aura Sphere can destroy our eggs. So not sure how FD is our worse when we can just camp him the entire time and hopefully get an Uair/Usmash on him.
Platforms = Possible (Not sure if they have a specific name for it or not) B reverse AD to Fair/Nair or Jab. Possibly just plain Dair'ing us if we're under the platform (And please don't post "Why would you be there while Lucario is above you?) Some players do it, Human Error must be Factored in.

As for the USmash/Dair conversation, can't test it since I don't have 4 arms sadly and it's already close to 5 AM.

I'd have to agree with Yika on this one, I tend to need ledges a lot in this MU. It seems like I have to resort to a lot of Platform/Ledge camping in order to even get anything done. Egg lay is also important, very important, and baiting his aerials and punishing landings when possible is mandatory as it's the only time you can poke at him without eating aura.

fsmash on-shield is without shield stun -23 if it hits with the first hitbox frame. At very high aura (140%+) Lucario does about 7 frames shield stun, you would've to grab perfectly to even get a slightly chance to grab him, fsmash pushes us to far away to grab. Our grab range is extened but so is the time for our grab to reach a decent range. (Yoshis far ranged grab grabs in frame 23 or later)
it's just a human error if they get shield grabbed for it, they could spotdodge on reaction, because they don't expect something like that because getting grabbed out of fsmash against Yoshi is something no one would expect

it's very hard to get an upsmash/uair in if you can't really get under him (and even if you're under him he was options to avoid getting hit).
I prefer platforms because you can punish landing lag on platforms (especially on BF).



it's just a pain to kill Lucario if he's playing safe property. I wished Yoshi had a better killmove

Just dropping this short discussion in here as it was relevant.

Also, I'd say that we need to play the MU really safe. Lucario can rack damage really easily on you if you get caught in his chains, especially at low damage. We need to try our best to stay away from him as much as possible and try to camp with eggs and space/wall with egg lay. If we manage to get Lucario above us, dont go for him like we do to practically everyone else, he has a lot of ways to stop us. Instead, try to throw eggs in his path back down trying to force him to either use his jumps or commit to something like a dair to stall or an air dodge. If we can get this, we can control the field more to our advantage by allowing more space once he touches down again, and it allows us try try and poke at him with an egglay or a dtilt on landing. The major thing in this MU from my experiance is spacing. Lucario has a much better spacing game, so we need to be really careful about what we do and try to use the least amount of commitment possible and just poke and prod at him with eggs, egg lays, and tilts until something connects. You will be needing to run away, hit the ledge, jump around in the platforms, etc and just play super cautious. Delta-cod like mad.

I'd like to say more, but I'm leaving, I'll pick up on this later. As for now, tear my input appart.

 

[smokey da bear]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEvD9H59ADA&t=4m30s

so in the end the only way we win this MU is if we get luckey =( that stucks

 

[Steam]

Doesn't lucario outcamp yoshi? >.>

I'd figure yoshi would be approaching most of the time... due to aurasphere being faster and yoshi more likely to be losing at X time.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Doesn't lucario outcamp yoshi? >.>

I'd figure yoshi would be approaching most of the time... due to aurasphere being faster and yoshi more likely to be losing at X time.

You out camp us while spamming baby aura sphere other than that we don't really have to approach.

 

[Steam]

You out camp us while spamming baby aura sphere other than that we don't really have to approach.

you do if when you're losing :0

also yoshi probably won't be shielding Fsmash much in this matchup. most lucarios will try to catch landings/dodges/yoshi's pivot grab with it. you can probably land an egglay on a lucario trying to Fsmash your landing... if you're not in range you could wavebounce the egglay away and not get Fsmashed. If lucario is ground spacing he'll probably be using Ftilt a lot of the time. It matches up well against yoshi's moveset and is (probably) completely safe on his shield.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

you do if when you're losing :0

Lol i do? With like 6 minutes left on the clock vs a character who i probably wouldn't be killing even if i got in. I'll take my chances not running into Fsmash.

also yoshi probably won't be shielding Fsmash much in this matchup. most lucarios will try to catch landings/dodges/yoshi's pivot grab with it.

You can Fsmash a Pivot Grab on Reaction? Sounds like you're going by reads there.

 

[Steam]

well lucario certainly can't catch dodges on reaction with it. you pretty much have to get a read to land Fsmash. It's like a 21 frame move.

and you will have to approach because it's not like eggs will deal damage for free while lucario stands there PSing them.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshis eggs have two hitboxes so if we throw them right you still take shield damage. (you PS the egg but the explosion still hits shield)

 

[Steam]

then I guess lucario will throw auraspheres to make him cut it out then lol. THEN yoshi will approach : D

 

[Poltergust]

Yeah, Yoshi won't be able to win by camping here. Lucario has no problems throwing Aura Spheres the entire time to force Yoshi to approach. And unlike eggs, his projectile does a lot of damage and can kill you. You're fighting a losing battle if you play defensively the entire time (unless you have the stock lead, in which case RUN LIKE HECK).

Basically, you're going to be killing Lucario in two ways: hard reads or gimps. Gimps are obviously preferable, but most of the time you'll be trying to predict what move Lucario is gonna throw out and counter with your own. Unfortunately for Yoshi, though, his punishes on Lucario are either super risky or don't do the job until high percentages. It's a really infuriating match-up if Lucario manages to live long each stock, because getting the kill is ridiculously hard.

 

[Sharky]

posting on wiinet so this will be brief.

i feel that we should look into abusing our massively better aerial mobility more in this mu. sure luc's aerials themselves aren't very good but he doesn't have the speed to keep up with us. this could let us bait a lot better against him and therefore give us a lot more openings. please speak if you disagree obviously.

 

[Boomer3d]

In my personal opinion (which anyone can correct since I have not been here for very long) on Lucario is he is a hard, if not yosh's worst, matchup.

First problem is him is we can not approach him with ease. If we go charging in, he can easily dodge or counter our attack and then quickly counter-attack. Also, he is able to out-camp us in many situations, easily dodging or destroying eggs thrown with his aura. If he is kicked off-stage we can counter him somewhat but it's a pain to get him there and he is able to weasle himself back on the stage with his B-up. For a counter stage, platforms are necessary(Such as battlefield and LC), mostly because if we get him stuck on a platform then we are able hit him with eggs easier without him being able to hit with aura. Also, depending on your location while throwing eggs, if he dodges, we can try to get a quick uair and go from there.

Overall, I find my best success on Battlefield and, if they try to camp, it is easy to bait them to moving by jumping between the platforms and faking them out. Personally I think he should stay 35:65 but could go 5 either way.

Also

i feel that we should look into abusing our massively better aerial mobility more in this mu. sure luc's aerials themselves aren't very good but he doesn't have the speed to keep up with us. this could let us bait a lot better against him and therefore give us a lot more openings. please speak if you disagree obviously.

Though our aerials are better, the problem in the air is our differences of air speeds. We have to be careful on approaching because it we go too fast then they can simply air dodge, and reach the safe ground. We have be slower then normal so if he dodges our nair we can atleast hit with our bair. thid can also work for bair to nair, uair to dair, or dair to uair, ergo all four basic directions from the air. Also it is pretty easy to hit him with an egg then combo accordingly.

Once again I'm newer so anyone can critize anything I said.

 

[Yikarur]

since when are Lucarios aerials bad? lol or "not very good" ? D:

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

since when are Lucarios aerials bad? lol or "not very good" ? D:

Pretty much this, his aerials are great.

And speak of the devil look what Lucario's are discussing

 

[Sharky]

I think I meant to type "are very good". lol. terrible typo =O

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

So i was playing around and i noticed that Yoshi's Uair is disjointed enough to hit Lucario when he's dairing if you're slightly to the side of him. I wish we had accurate hitbubbles

 

[Sharky]

known but rarely abused =(

 

[Steam]

or you could just DJ armor through it :I

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

...

So Lucarios Dair first hit comes out on frame 4 and the second hit comes out on frame 11. This means that there is a 7 frame window between the 2 hits. With me so far?

Now first hit lingers for 3 frames so on frame 7 it is no longer active.

Our Upair comes out on frame 5. This means that it is possible to do this. But thats assuming that you take the hit, and start your upair before the first hit retracts. Now thats just pure frame data. Considering that this will be happening instantly, and human reaction time is at least 4 frames if you have godlike reflexes, you wont be getting this off often if ever.

(Edit: Forgot to mention the fact that theres a 3 frame window, 3 frame being iffy as it would either trade or Yoshi loses cause yours is like pure disjoint.)

Tl;Dr just no steam

 

[Yikarur]

I did this even on wifi lol

you forgot to take hitlag into account, you can buffer something out of hitlag.

Lucario's dair at 75% has 14 frames inbetween hits. 170% are 15 frames (so the timing doesn't vary much)
At 0% are 13 frames (this are all not counting the hitframe)

it's totally possible to react to this because you don't react to the hit, you react to the animation of Lucario. (so you get +4 frames in timing making it 17/18/19 on the same stock)
human average reaction is 12 frames and because you already expect the dair you only have to wait for that signal making reacting easier.

but like I always say, if people see Yoshi initiating his DJ they just need to airdodge through it and are safe lol

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Lucario's dair at 75% has 14 frames inbetween hits. 170% are 15 frames (so the timing doesn't vary much)
At 0% are 13 frames (this are all not counting the hitframe)

Is this all counting in Hit lag or is the Lucario frame data thread just wrong?

 

[Steam]

it's counting hitlag.

and I wasn't referring to reacting between hits. I was more or less suggesting that it was on a read and the dair and uair happened at pretty much the same time. and if you find the lucario is ADing in that situation a lot you can probably land a downB on him or something.

 

[Sharky]

but like I always say, if people see Yoshi initiating his DJ they just need to airdodge through it and are safe lol

then we ground pound

 

[Yikarur]

downB too good :0 needs more uses

 

[Steam]

then we ground pound

pretty much this. kill lucario with your butt

 

[Sinister Slush]

I've actually used DownB for quite a few uses lately.
It's saved me from dying, but I always missed the tech so I of course hit the stage and fly off the main platform, But I always make it back anyways just to repeat the process of camping Lucario/Other characters.

Also to revive old MU threads i've made, I'm gonna see if I can stop being lazy and get all the knowledge (Despite most of it being wrong most likely) of the Match-Ups i've posted so far and make a Semi-Big write up on them. Expect... around 6 write-ups I guess.

 

[Sharky]

that reminds me I never did that ike write-up...=P

 

[Z'zgashi]

Im pretty sure the best thing to do in this MU is pick D3.