Match Up Export: Marth

[Sage JoWii]

Overview: Marth and his beastly sword join the Brawl! With long sword reach, quick attack speed and tippers to be feared, he is quite a force to be reckoned with. The tiara wearing swordsman wants a piece of marshmallow but with those big shoes on Kirby you can prevent it.

Kirby’s Pros and Cons:

+ Deceptively good Bair.
+ Great grab game for racking damage.
+ Good aerial game for baiting/ aircamp + gimping.
+ Strong Kill move (when fresh) for moderately early kills.
+ Small size helps avoid tippers.
-Light; tippers are lethal.
- Fairly predictable jump patterns for edgegaurding.
- Lacks approach option.

Marth's Pros and Cons:

+ Good defense and approach options
+ Nice range + excellent zoning capabilities.
+ Great Punisher
+ Combos very well.
- Predictable recovery = Easier gimps.
- Heavily dependent on (near) perfect zoning to avoid damage.
- Outside of tippers no great killing options.

Watch out for:
UpB (Dolphin Slash)– Marth can UpB OoS, out of Kirby's grab combo, to recover, for no f'n reason, etc. and has good knockback.

Grab > ____ – At early percent grab>Fthrow will lead to a Fsmash. > UpThrow will lead to a few aerials and >Fthrow means a Fair or if incorrectly DI'd a Fsmash. Expect the grab> Dthrow combo often as well..

Dancing Blade – If Marth want to punish, expect him to Dance on your face. There are several variants and they can setup into pursuit by Marth or just as a GTFO.

FAir – Expect Fair as approach, or retreating Fairs for defense. It combos into itself and is great for zoning. Don't eat too many trying to approach or you'll find an unexpectedly high damage percent.

How to win:
Bait – Bait the UpB out of your grab combo, after a few hits from your jab combo, off the stage, etc. Bait Fairs to land Bairs or set up a grab. The more you bait, the better this matchup is for Kirby.

Gimp – When you get Marth of the ledge he has two options. OverB for horizontal recovery or UpB for vertical recovery; Hammer the OverB or Dair it. As far as the UpB you can either bait it and edgegaurd, or rock it. Your best bet is to edgegaurd it but for a little extra damage rock can help.

Bair – Bait and Bair. Simple as that.

Read your opponent– Read his UpBs out of your grab combo so you can punish the landing while avoiding the damage. If you hard read his UpB while you grab combo, he'll be weary of UpBing out of the combo again. If you read the Dancing Blade you can roll behind him between the 3rd and 4th hits to Fsmash him or just grab Marth between the 3rd and 4th hits. Every time you read Marth you scare him into just a little bit more damage and you can soul-crush an opponent into thinking your Kirby is too good to beat. Imagine being a player and everytime you went to punish or get away from your opponent they read you and punished you with a strong smash or killing move: how would that make you feel? Exactly.

Spit out or Swallow?
Spit. If you want the shieldbreaker then go for it but you then rule out the option of Kirbiciding if Marth tries to prusue off the stage. It also rules out the option of spitting him under the stage.

What NOT to do:
Play aggressive. – If you rush in you'll eat an UpB, a retreating Fair, grab> ___, etc. Kirby's best option is to play a super defensive, bait and punish game. When you rush in you're risking damage percent that you don't need to eat.

Be Predictable – Dont be predictable with your recovery or in general. If you're predictable with how you recover you may get spiked or edgegaurded where you'd otherwise have lived. If you are playing predictable in general prepare to get read with an UpB, Dancing Blade, Fair, etc..

Spam FSmash – It's good for racking damage but when Marth finally gets to 130~% and you have him on the edge, you'd like to kill him right? Well if you've been using Fsmash too much you'll have to refresh it and waste valuable time and possibly damage percent where you would've killed him already had you kept Fsmash fresh.

Stages (in order of priority):
FD – No gimmicks, no worries. Open area to aircamp and play the baiting game. Don't let Marth get momentum though.
PS1 – Always a good Kirby stage. Windmill will help Kirby live longer when you tech it. The assorted terrains and platforms will help Kirby aircamp and the lip on the ledge may help to gimp Marth. (It's about maximizing potential in your favor).
Lylat Cruise – The tilting of the stage can help Kirby gimp! The platforms offer a safe touch down are for your air camping and with the stage being uneven Kirby's FC is a bit more usable.
Rainbow Cruise– Yay For great Kirby stages!
Battlefield. – Platforms can be a hindrance in this matchup because if you land on a platform after an attack Marth has some options. If he's directly under it he'll UpTilt and cover the whole platform and if he's not under you he can read your getup option and react accordingly.
Halberd– The Blastzones are pretty lame for Kirby.

Neutrals: Ranked and Explained

Key: Good, Bad.

PS1 – Reason stated above
FD– Reason stated above
Lylat– Depending on if it's MLG or not, the tilts help.
Battlefield – Reasons state above​

Synopsis:
*Marths are usually aggressive, and usually approach from the air. It’s difficult to get inside, but once you do, the reward is great. Marth is in for a world of pain if he’s offstage. If he shields an attack from you, expect an UpB. Overall just don't be so aggressive and let him come to you. It's a bait and punish game so expect him to call you some derogatory comment when Marth loses.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

All the Kirbies seem afraid to talk about Marth. He totally ***** Fighters, Beserkers, and Marshmallows at lv.30.

I'm not too insightful here, so I'll just go call the Marths in.

EDIT: Seems A1 already did so. Guess they don't care.

How about we discuss how to "get inside" (whatever that means) Marth. That was in the old summary, but I never quite understood it.

 

[~Shao~]

I have tons of experience against Marth. I think I'll take my old MU summary and do some changes in it, and add some tidbits of info I've gathered since the last MU talk.

 

[Kewkky]

I think we should hold on the discussions until the website is fixed... There's still problems, and if something like yesterday happens (where the site was completely messed up), it would mess with the flow of discussion.

Just a suggestion.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Good plan. I heard people's posts got deleted, stuff was glitched, etc.

Thanks for the April Fools joke, you get 1 day of funny, and we take heat for a week now.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Marth match up is confusing, if you play defensive the match would be close to even, but Marth will still have the upper hand, Kirby has trouble when fighting characters that are fast, it prevents him for being aggressive. Playing aggressive with Marth will destroy your chances of winning. The good part about this match up is the stage picks are better for us. Marth has two stages he would **** Kirby in, which is sadly two starter stages Battlefield and Yoshi's Island. Lylat Cruise is good for him, but that stage is also good for us so it's not too much of an advantage for him. Our best bet with starters would be Final Destination, as much as I hate playing him on that stage, FD is out best stage for him if Pokemon Stadium is a counter pick. Jungle Japes is one of Marth's worst stages so if you see this stage in a tournament, pick it, Rainbow Cruise isn't much of a threat to Marth. I have to look up on more stages to fight him in. ☆

☆ That's one of my coins to this discussion. ☆

 

[Sage JoWii]

Well I ALSO second the motion to hold off on this discussion til there aren't 502 errors every so often but it feels like we're past the worst of it sooo:

I insanely love playing this match-up.
It's 55-45 Marth if you play it correctly otherwise it's not hard to see it as a 60-40.

In order to beat Marth you'll have to play extremely defensive and rarely use your FSmash. Grabs is how Kirby will rack damage but he CANNOT re-grab because Marth will UpB directly after grab (you just need to land the grab and slightly move back). This is key knowledge because you can HARD READ his *** and land a hammer, rock, or basically any hard hitting move while Marth lands. Second part of this knowledge is that once he believes you'll punish him after an UpB he won't so the next grab CAN be a regrab; it's all about reading Marth.

I believe that if you shouldn't use your FSmash to keep it as fresh as possible because in this match-up you want a kill as early as possible and FSmash will provide. It clashes with a lot of Marth moves and is fast as hell.
Marth will be grabbing you like crazy because his DThrow leads into a tippered FSmash if you DI incorrectly or a FSmash if you DI less incorrectly but incorrectly nonetheless; also watch out for a regrab if Marth starts reading your FSmash dodges following his DThrow.

DA is semi-useful since it's not exactly expected; if you get read expect an UpB OoS. (Try DA>jab combo. I usually land 2 or 3 hits from the AAA combo then move back a little if I can read Marth's UpB).
BAir is the most useful attack in this matchup. You'll most likely stale this because, with the range being deceptively far, if you FFBair approach you'll most likely beat Marth's approach/defense.
Work your UpTilt juggles and follow up with a shieldgrab when he tries to attack.

Edgegame: Pursue! Get that ****er as far as possible from the edge. When you return after pursuing Marth as far as possible off the edge either:
a. Grab the ledge and hope he either isn't close enough to UpB>ledge grab by beating Kirby there OR that he doesn't have enough time to stage spike UpB>ledgegrab, then following up with a DAir spike when you try and recover.
OR b. Avoid the ledge altogether and land on the ledge content with the damage you left and wait to run off the ledge>BAir hopefully spiking Marth if he thinks he's gonna stay on that ledge.
OR! c. Rock his recover.

Stages:
Avoid Battlefield- Marth's FSmash's overhead part of the swing covers the WHOLE platform so if you happen to fall and hit a platform you'll be hit regardless of rolling or get up.
Take to FD- No platforms, wide space for good spacing and defensive play.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

This MU also is affected by the Marth you play. Conveniently for us, mos Marths are very agressive with their attacks, which is what we want, since that gives us more opportunities to punish.

A defensive Marth, on the other hand, while rare, is the ultimate counter for Kirby. He makes freaking s'mores out of us. Simply because once Marth realizes that he doesn't have to take the fight to us, it becomes our need to make the approach. And with range like Marth's, there is really no safe way of doing so other than getting lucky with a perfect shield or a well-timed, fresh Bair.

Your best option is to get him off the stage and relentlessly attack. He'll die eventually, Altean princes can't survive in a ground-less habitat.

I hate this MU, and I'd like to say 65-35, but then again, I suck at this MU in particular, so lets leave it at 60-40

 

[Sage JoWii]

No Tater; that's a horrible match-up rating and unless you have some kind of argument for that, with valid points, I'll take that as just random babble.

A defensive Marth is beat by FC projectile. Once Marth stays away we're free to spam FC forever. You DI back in the upSlash portion of FC or forward to mix up your distance from Marth THUS changing the timing for a correct shield by Marth and you can eventually land one. Rinse and repeat until Marth decides he can't do it all day and decides to approach; then fall back on original MU strategy.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

>.>

FC isn't too spammable, and it's not that hard to dodge/counter/shield. I put that as my preference, seeing as it's my take. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Deal with it or get lit on fire.

 

[Tiersie]

Oh my god Jowii disagreed with you, he must hate you.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

What's the logic behind that?

lulz, upB spike=ninja spike

 

[Sage JoWii]

In response to RRR in the other thread:

And when I said FC, obviously not something you'd want to use against Marth, what with the start lag, end lag, etc. BUT! If Marth is sitting back 'being defensive' like Tater offered he would, then yes, FC becomes a viable option as it has semi-acceptable range to avoid getting hit if you DI back mid FC.

 

[Triple R]

Copy and pasted from other thread, still don't know how it got there *johns*:

Did I just hear use FC against marth?

I would never would FC onstage against marth. You're just asking for him to run up and shield it and punish you. Don't FC camp on the ledge either....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEVQcEOFDlA refer to 1:37 in that vid. I just really use FC in this matchup :/

Personally I don't find this matchup that hard. I do agree it's slightly in Marth's favor, but just by a sliver. People think marth can outspace kirby terrible. While he can generally outspace it's not game breaking in my opinion. You'd be surprised at how much range our bair has.

As far as approaching, I would just run around a little, hop a little here and there, and maybe throw out some bair. I find approaching to be bad, so you gotta be tricky. Grabs seem to work really well if you can get in because marths sometimes like to shield alot and use upb as an OoS option. If you even see a marth just spotdogding, my advice is just to step back. He's probably trying to bait you so he can upb you.

 

[fromundaman]

I don't really know what to think of this MU, because if you play a good Marth and don't know the MU really well, you're going to get *****, and I don't think I know this MU well enough to really say much.


HOWEVER... don't FC. Seriously don't. In fact, don't do it to anyone who's onstage and has decent movespeed. It's very easy to powershield and punish during the ending lag, even from max distance.

Yeah, that's really all I had to say.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Alright, I'm not sure if it's just that the move has absolutely no credibility, and THAT'S why you're dogging it OR if you actually considered for a moment the use of a properly DI'd FC against a Marth who is not approaching (or any character for that matter).

OR maybe I just win against defensive Marths, with FC in my strategy, as a fluke?

 

[Nike.]

-Kirby cannot bair/fair as an approach. Marth's ftilt will always beat it. Everytime Kirby even takes flight, he should always eat a ftilt. Bairing a marth in his shield begs DS out of shield.

Gee, that's a big bummer for kirby. Bair is supposed to be the answer for everything D:

-Marth has a fthrow -> fsmash from 0-3%. Dont get grabbed when the match starts or when you respawn.

-Dancing Blade, it's a punisher. If he's hitting you with it then it's because you messed up on something and he's punishing you for it. The main thing it'll beat is spot dodging and rolls, much like kirby's dash attack. Yes, this makes running spot dodge bad if he's at the neutral position.

-FC spam does not work. It's easy to powershield, shield, or spot dodge. If your caught doing it too close to him, your eating dancing blade or counter.

I'll post some more things when I think of em.

 

[Kewkky]

We can run, shield his dancing blade, then grab him between the 3rd and 4th hits, no mater how fast he does the attacks. We have guaranteed time for this... So if everyone learns how to keep your shields up instead of powershield>drop, DB shouldn't be a problem.

We should approach with either grabs or tilts. Anything that gets Marth in the air and pushes him back, what we want is to be below him.

 

[fromundaman]

Alright, I'm not sure if it's just that the move has absolutely no credibility, and THAT'S why you're dogging it OR if you actually considered for a moment the use of a properly DI'd FC against a Marth who is not approaching (or any character for that matter).

OR maybe I just win against defensive Marths, with FC in my strategy, as a fluke?

Neither. I am saying that if the Marth is NOT in the air, then he should be able to powershield and punish it no matter how far he is. DI'ing away is a very good move, don't get me wrong, but this is a mixup option, and really nothing more, and even at that not a great one, since the opponent can react to the move.

Here's the first problem: If Marth is on the ground, he should start dashing towards you as soon as he sees the animation. Marth runs faster than we DI backwards. This leads to the second problem: If the Marth player has decent reaction time, he should be closing the gap before we even start the move, and as a result, powershields/counters/UpBs and punishes.

Now of course, if he's out of range of the move, then there's no reason for him to run at you, since he wouldn't be hit anyway.


@Kewkky: This is true, but this leads to 1st hit of DB>grab mindgames. Granted, it's way better than getting hit by DB every time, but it leads to mixups. Also, we are screwed if our shield is low.

 

[Kewkky]

Yeah, he can do mixups, but we're not as doomed as Nike's making it sound whenever we face a DB (which was my point). We can do mixups too and roll behind Marth after the first DB hit, leaving him completely open for whatever we want, including a surprise fsmash.

 

[fromundaman]

Agreed.

Just pointing out mixup possibilities. I mean, it's like talking about Dthrow>Utilt. Good combo, yes, but it will lead to mixups, and a lot of it's combo potential IMO is in mixing it up (Though watch out, since Marth can DI and Fair you out of a Dthrow at rather low %s. I think it's like 30 or something.).

 

[~Shao~]

We can't follow up at 0% with any throw :/ Marth can jump out before we u-tilt after a d-throw, even if we buffer it. Luckily most Marth's don't know this. But yeah, say goodbye to throw combos.

 

[fromundaman]

Are you sure? I could have sworn we could buffer a Utilt faster than any character could buffer a jump AND get out of range. That being said, I know they can UpB out of any throw followup too, but for Dthrow at low %s, that's a bad idea.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Wait wait, we can totally regrab. Or at the least followup with a UTilt OR FAir. >_> The only reason you shouldn't is because you'll eat a UpB.

 

[fromundaman]

You can't regrab like 75% of the cast from a Dthrow at any percent. Hell, the Utilt isn't even guaranteed since they can AD it if they buffer right, or footstool jump if they buffer that right.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Oh wait....we were talking abt DThrow?


.../fail.

disregard!

 

[fromundaman]

Wait... which throw were you talking about? You can't regrab Marth out of Fthrow either... Hell, you can't even get the Uair.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

True, Marth can UpB us right from the Fthrow, BUT! If you try this, say at the beginning of a match, usually you can find out whether or not Marth knows this. If he does, you can Fthrow, then DI away while airdodging, and his UpB will miss, so if you're on an open stage, say, Final Destination, Marth helplessly falls, waiting for whatever you feel like hitting him with. Heck, if you want to, you can Stone if you want, but a regrab or Bair, Fair, Uair, Utilt, whatever you feel like works.

 

[Nike.]

We can run, shield his dancing blade, then grab him between the 3rd and 4th hits, no mater how fast he does the attacks. We have guaranteed time for this... So if everyone learns how to keep your shields up instead of powershield>drop, DB shouldn't be a problem.

We should approach with either grabs or tilts. Anything that gets Marth in the air and pushes him back, what we want is to be below him.

I said dancing blade was a punisher, not an offensive move. Marth is NOT going to use dancing blade when kirby runs right at him and shields. Your right about grabbing between the 3rd and 4th hit, though.

Me and a fellow kirby practiced random things. About recovery:

-If your trying to grab the ledge from the bottom of the stage using a jump, make sure you time it right and use the auto-ledge grab so that you dont eat dtilt.

-If you start final cutter above the ledge to either grab the ledge or land on stage, marth can counter it. If he shielded it, he can still upb out of shield as your falling down. (If your too far away to be hit by upb out of shield then he shouldnt have been shielding in the first place lol).

-If you try to sweet spot final cutter as low as you can, I THINKKKKK your safe from dtilt. I'm not completely sure, someone should test this. If not perfectly spaced/timed and your body pokes even slightly higher, dtilt will hit.

-Swallowcide is swallowcide.

 

[fromundaman]

True, Marth can UpB us right from the Fthrow, BUT! If you try this, say at the beginning of a match, usually you can find out whether or not Marth knows this. If he does, you can Fthrow, then DI away while airdodging, and his UpB will miss, so if you're on an open stage, say, Final Destination, Marth helplessly falls, waiting for whatever you feel like hitting him with. Heck, if you want to, you can Stone if you want, but a regrab or Bair, Fair, Uair, Utilt, whatever you feel like works.

Right. Just saying it isn't guaranteed. I do like it when they whiff the UpB and give me a free air hammer though.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Indeed, though I prefer an Uair ladder (think someone names it the Stairway to Heaven), assuming you quickly fast fall, THEN the rising Uair.

 

[Triple R]

Just making sure people know this again. When testing the waters to see if he will upb after you fthrow him, you don't have to airdodge, I would actually suggest against that. You can just DI away after the fthrow and his upb won't hit you. I find airdodging into someone is never really a good idea, especially if they read it.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

I meant DI-ing away AND airdodging, I didn't know that DI-ing was enough to clear you from the UpB's range.

On a different note, Kewkky and that Marth main said something about grabbing Marth in between hits of the SideB. Evaluate please, perhaps with a video?

 

[~Shao~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDQ3rOWI-S0

0:08 - Marth jumping before the u-tilt after d-throw
0:22 and 0:50 - Grabbing in-between dancing blade hits

 

[Kewkky]

Well, Marth's 1st, 2nd and 3rd hits are all too fast for us to react to, we don't have enough time to even shieldgrab Marth due to the speed of his attacks, we don't have enough frames in between the hits, not even the necessary 6 frames for a grab. BUT! Between the 3rd and 4th hits, Marth takes a little longer to attack. He can either do one of two attacks: The multi-hit jab, or the downward swing... On the multi-hit jab 4th hit, he stops at the end of the 3rd hit, steps forward, then attacks. This gives us enough time to get a grab in, maybe even roll behind him and fsmash Marth (go for the shieldgrab, though)... Same thing with the downward swing: he does a little twirl, THEN slashes down. It also gives us enough time to grab him, but it doesn't give us the time to roll behind him and fsmash.


Here's some quick frame data analysis:

Source: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204825

B Moves:

Note: The (x)>> indicates when the dancing blade may continue into another attack of the combo

Forward b 1
Hit: 4-7
End: 30
(15) >>
Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Tipper Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Regular Stun: 21
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -5
Regular Tipper Stun: 22
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -4

Forward b 2:
Hit: 21-25
End: 55
(28) >>

Forward b 3:
Hit: 33-37
End: 72
(39)>>

Forward b 4:
Hit: 49-54
End: 92

---------------

Forward b 1
Hit: 4-7 (14 frames until next hitbox) Ends at: Frame 30
Forward b 2:
Hit: 21-25 (8 frames until next hitbox)
Forward b 3:
Hit: 33-37 (12 frames until next hitbox)
Forward b 4:
Hit: 49-54
End: 92 (Essentially, 38 frames for us to abuse)


Ok, so why do I say "grab between the 3rd and 4th", and not "grab after the 1st hit"? Well, apart from the whole 'average 10-frame reaction time' thing we all know and love, Marths will be sideB'ing from a safe distance away, so if they whiff they'll be relatively safe. We have to run up to them with our normal runspeed, and since they will space it properly, we have to waste time in shieldstun, dropping our shield, running up to them, and starting a dashgrab (it's 8 frames if I'm not mistaken)... Enough for them to upB from the ground, which because of how we can't raise our shields as soon as we start a dash, we 're going to get hit. So, they're safe during the first hit... Now, every time they execute another hit, they move forward, closer to where we're shielding. We only have 12 frames to grab, but it's OK since they'll have moved right in front of us, so no need to drop shields or whatever. Our shieldgrab comes out in frame 6, we have 12 frames to do this, so we literally have a 6-frame error margin... DEFINITELY doable!

I do it all the time. f you predict a Marth's sideB at any moment and shield it, and they go on with the whole combo, rest assured that between the 3rd and 4th hits you can grab him out of it. And considering that the 3rd hit of DB has a MINIMUM frame-37 hitbox time, we have more than enough time to realize Marth is DB'ing our shields, and enough time to count each hit, given the 10-frame-average thing. So, no matter how fast Marth is doing his sideB, we're guaranteed a grab between the 3rd and 4th hits... It's your safest moment while being hit with a DB, you can even roll behind Marth and fsmash him!

 

[~Shao~]

As long as you learn to shield instead of spotdodge, dancing blade won't be as annoying. I personally find his up-b OoS a pain in the ***, way more annoying than dancing blade. And depending on his spacing, we can SDI his dancing blade to avoid the 4th hit of the neutral and down combo.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Well, thank you both for evaluating.

So what's the next topic?

 

[Kewkky]

I dunno, I'm lately just watching the debates and inputting my quick thoughts whenever someone says something I feel like I should talk about.

Well, stages... What do you guys think about stages? Of couse, I'd take Marth to Battlefield

 

[TaterSalad0811]

I know how you feel, it's pretty awesome

I guess the less gimmicks, the better. F.Destination or Smashville as starters, maybe Lylat or PS1?

Counterpicks... uh...

PIE FLA-wait a second...

 

[fromundaman]

Quick question, can you roll through the multi-hit 4th hit of DB? The reason I ask is because theoretically, and I do realize that a grab is safer and a better option, but theoretically, if you predict the multi-hit 4th hit rather than the downwards slash, could you roll behind him and punish with a KO move?

This would of course be a very risky mixup option, but I'm just wondering if it even works.