Match up Export - Ice Climbers

[DtJ S2n]

Rules to follow

[FONT=Courier New]* Be polite even in a disagreement
* Realistic matchup ratios please
* Don't repeat things already said
* POST SHOULD BE MORE THAN TWO SENTENCE[/FONT]

Match up:

more later

more later

Neutral:
Counterpicks:
Bans:

I'll update these and fill in the blanks when I believe we reach a consensus on them. Is there anything else that needs it's own quote box or something?

 

[Neon!]

Thanks for making this thread sold I'll try to be more optimistic than i have recently.

What to do and watch out for:
The ice climbers have quite a few reliable options to approach us from the ground, mostly which involve desynched ice blocks/blizzard/sideB. Below are the best ways to deal with these in my opinion...
ice blocks- jab or ps
side-b- this one can be tricky, you can bair them easily if they use it from too far away or if you read them but most of the time you will end up shielding it. The problem here is it has virtually no landing lag which makes it difficult to punish. if they land close by the safest option is to roll away or jab (1st hit only if they shield it)
blizzard- avoid/ attempt to outrange with down-b (risky)

With that said I should note that our down-b is a high rish/high reward move in this matchup. If you attempt to down-b them out of blizzard and it misses they can desynch an aerial side-b which will lead to a grab.

The key to this matchup is desynching them of course. I honestly am no expert on how to approach the climbers, i find it best to wait for them to make a mistake. Here's just a few things to keep in mind
-Always approach with a fully charged punch
-Dont use ftilt to try and swat them away
-Bair MUST be spaced well on shield
-Be careful even when attempting to juggle them, their synced side-b and dair are surprisingly effective defensive aerial options.

Stages

Neutrals-
I would consider Battlefield the most favorable neutral for us, platforms are reliable for avoiding their strong ground game and for the occasional use of lagless rising up-b and invincicopter.

Counterpicks-
Brinstar
YI

Bans-
FD

Matchup ratio -2 or possibly -3
I may post more later on after i get some sleep lol, I got home from work an hour ago.

 

[DtJ S2n]

No problem and thanks for the input. Hopefully we'll get some more from Will and ripple who seem well versed in this match-up. I personally don't have the experience to really speak here, but let me try and theorybrawl a bit.

Against their side-b, u-tilt should hit them out of it every time and is very quick.

I'd like to know all our options vs blizzard and if we had something to do on reaction vs it. That seems to be the big problem a lot of us face in the match-up. Our down-b should definitely work if they're being predictable with it. Anything else? Can we like, jump around it and kick them or maybe get above it with b-air? Can giant punch make it in?

Anyways, so what I've been thinking. Why don't we camp the ice climbers? I think this is one of those match-ups where just playing hit and run, like the Falco match-up, would yield a great return. Like I'm just saying something like, force the neutral to Battlefield or PS1, something like that, then run away and charge giant punch. Punch at them, run away more, hit them if they get too greedy with a u-air or something. Of course when Nana gets popped up I would definitely suggest going in there b-airs flying and everything.

Nana's going to get hit by that giant punch eventually, and it's pretty damn safe. It does 30% too, so if just Nana gets hit by it, she'll get desynched all over the place. As soon as we have the lead in stocks, I don't see ice blocks and blizzard being threatening enough to force us to approach, and if they have to approach us it makes it that much easier to catch them with down-b/b-air.

Neutrals- Definitely Battlefield. Maybe PS1. Like I said before, it gives us more room and platforms to run away and do what we want.
Counterpicks- Brinstar is an obvious and great choice. I would also entirely support Rainbow Cruise, we're super good there. The safest option though is probably PS2. You can count on the ICs to have a pocket MK/GW/Snake that kind of thing, and PS2 vs MK is actually entirely fine.
Bans- FD no question.

I really wish that I could tell you all to just go Brinstar and Rainbow cruise, and that we could account the fact that we will almost always win the counterpick vs Ice Climbers into the match-up, but lol pocket characters.

I have a really hard time believing this match-up could be anything worse than -2, and personally see it as -1 just because when DK makes a mistake it's pretty damn obvious, unlike a character like MK who's mistakes can end up entirely safe.

 

[crifer]

giant punch beats blizzard (and looks really awesome bc of bllion frames of hitlag)

charge your punch every time it isn´t charged!!! camp them on platforms, make them approach.

if they run at you, depending on the time, you can do a retreating pivot grab, dtilt to grab or something and seperate them with bthrow and go for an easy spike.

I thin upB is really amazing against IC´s because one hit will somehow always go through nana´s shield (idk why).

don´t ftilt much. don´t sh double bair. don´t try to juggle them, their dair is amazing. don´t get juggled.

fsmash charged while standing near them and hitting their shield seems pretty safe.

 

[Smoom77]

I agree with the idea that DKs should camp really hard. SV platform is super good. Just face away and drop and bair if we try to approach.

But other than that, I don't think DK has a ton on ICs. If you can do a punch through blizzard or to punish something, that helps a lot but we can shield bair. Blizzard beats all your attacks but punch (i think? Someone correct me). And IBs will force an approach if youre not on a platform.

If you can get a downB in, ICs are playing wrong. Usually I can predict it and punish with sideb.

I don't know this matchup amazingly, but I know it somewhat.

 

[Ripple]

DK BRETHERAN! LISTEN TO MY WORDS OF WISDOM!

1. never actually approach, only punish (EXCEPTIONS: when they are pushed to the ledge and you are in the center of the stage you may approach with grounded up-b and that's it.)

2. never down-b if they don't have a blizzard out ( down-b out ranges blizzard by a little bit sets up nice possibilities BUT, if they are shielding they can punish with side-b and then up- air and you just took 50%)

3. NEVER EVER EVER EVER AIR DODGE TO THE GROUND!!! (ICs may occasionally get your second jump and you may be falling but you should never air dodge. OPTIONS: 1: use Giant punch as you're falling to try and hit their grab or push them away. use neutral B even if you don't have it charged, that's even more unexpected. 2: up-b away, you should always be playing on a stage with a platform, if they get your second jump, up-b as you're falling and land laglessly on a platform. 3. go off stage and attempt to snag the ledge. 4. FOOTSTOOL THEM! I can't tell you how many times I forgot about this option when it could have saved my life. even if you're out of jumps.... you're not. 5. attempt a side-b. some ICs just sit in shield waiting for you to land, if they have this habit, you can easily break their shield. 5. don't do anything and land anyway. while it may seem stupid at first, it really isn't, although it is risky. doing nothing makes them nervous and since they didn't see an air dodge they may wait in shield for an attack that isn't coming. land and buffer a roll or jump out of there. )

4. ledge stall if you're nervous or pressured to much. (ICs can't do anything about DK's planking so this can give you some time and space to relax and think. don't forget you have many ways to actually get off the ledge or make them back off. )

5. don't bair ( anonymous DK " But Ripple....". me, "No buts, don't do it" )

6. f-tilt is bad. ( I suggest d-tilt or oddly enough, half charged f-smash)

stages: Do NOT play on SV as a starter. trust me, it forces DK to ledge stall more and will make you think it's a pseudo FD because the platform riht above you 1/3 of the time. ALWAYS ALWAYS PLAY ON BF. get the extended SA off platforms down and this will aid you tremendously. plus the fact that there is a 3rd platform even higher forces the ICs to full jump to get you.

match up is in DK's favor but he must play EXTREMELY different than how he normally plays

 

[Smoom77]

I really agree with ^ except that it's in DK's favor.

 

[Neon!]

Ripple I agree with most of what you said but please realize that this is not an even matchup for us. Look at how many times you said "never." Thats exactly how i feel in this matchup, we have so few safe options and we have to significantly outplay them in order to win. We cant bair, we cant ftilt, dtilt and down-b are useless against their side-b and they only need 1 or 2 good reads to take a stock.

Good ice climbers like smoom are hard to beat but ones that play the matchup perfectly like vinnie or lain are nearly impossible.

 

[Ripple]

I could turn all those "nevers" into "always do this" its just phrasing.

I'm still standing by what I said even at worst

you win on BF and lose on SV. so if the first game is on SV and you lose, you still have your CP + BF left. you win.

 

[DtJ S2n]

I kind of feel like they could CP halberd instead of BF and it would be effective, since it only gives us one platform to use to avoid them.

 

[Ripple]

I kind of feel like they could CP halberd instead of BF and it would be effective, since it only gives us one platform to use to avoid them.

1. they'd never take you there for fear of MK and

2. stall under the stage

 

[Luigi player]

Here's my post from the social thread, I feel like most of what I think about the MU should be on there:

I dont think ICs have too big of an advantage against DK if at all (call me biased if you want xD)

You just need to play really safe. I nearly only use downB, bair and grab in that MU. Grabs are really stong if you catch Nana and then run offstage with her and then spike her xD I love doing that. Too bad you can be grabbed out of the cargo hold.

downB forces them in the air,
punch to go through blizzard or squalls (their sideB)
bair to space and hit them while they're in the air
sometimes other attacks depending on the situation (like if they are landing you can risk other stuff like jabs/ftilt/grounded upB/etc)
juggle them if they're in the air (Uair/Bair)
grabs are really important to seperate them (bthrow; or cargo hold if they're already seperated). Once they are seperated chase down Nana. She should be easy shark food for you (learn how she acts to know what she'll do; mostly bairs to dair work well to get her offstage/gimp her)

I personally nearly always run away from them if I don't have a punch charged. It's an important option you need to have. :x

Also to the people that say downB is bad: I really don't see it. DownB is GREAT and isn't risky at all, unless you're at like 170 % and could get KO'd out of it.

I always downB + bair to "appraoch" or defend myself against ICs. It's like RPC, just that if they hit with their sideB it's just a bit damage, but if you hit them with downB it's a potential juggle on Nana which could lead to a KO or other really bad things for ICs.

If they blizzard wall then you could downB or punch through them (not sure but I think the downB has a bigger hitbox in front of you so you'll get hit if you try to downB them without facing them...). Or sometimes jump above them and bair them lol.

Scared of their sideB to grab? - Try SmashDIing it.
Scared of the few %s it does? - Why?


Oh and I really can't see how you can't like SV... :x BF seems much more risky to me since you can't just retreat to a platform to be "safe"+have time to charge the giant punch (although the top platform might be ok, but you won't get anything out of it if they don't try to approach you up there).


And yeah ban FD, I wouldn't take YI too lightly too. The big platform is really good for them, because they will pressure you with uairs all day. And it can be really stupid to approach them if they're below it. But it can still be a good stage. Just don't think it's too easy or anything lol.
As for CPs um... stages that interrupt their CGs or if they have to be in the air a lot are good. Like Delfino, PS1 (maybe 2 but I'm not sure...), or RCs, Brinstar (watch out for MK though I personally would probably not go to those stages..), or other bad stages that might (but shouldn't) be allowed :x

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Ripple, if you are talking about the DK ICs MU, don't bring up the fear of MK, you noob @_@

 

[Chaosgriffin]

ima go with ripple on what he said for the most part
-always have punch
-one bair never two (try to make sure you auto cancel it on frame 31)
-dtilt not ftilt
-upb works amazing in this MU, cause of nana. also if they are near the edge go push em off with it
-jabs are not that great, use dtilt intead it recovers faster and only hits one frame later
-punch beats blizzard, grounded up b doesnt cause there is 3 frames where there is no SA before it hits
-down b does have more range than blizzard, but only do it when the pull out blizzard
-if you happen to grab them (which you shoulndt be doing on a normal basis) u-throw is fastest and it can be buffered, but if you have time get one of them outta there with a cargo throw

 

[Neon!]

I love that the discussion here is theory based. Someone tell me the last time any DK beat a top IC or took one to game 3 at least. I'm optimistic enough to believe this matchup is -2 or possibly -1 but theres no way its even.

 

[Ripple]

I love that the discussion here is theory based. Someone tell me the last time any DK beat a top IC or took one to game 3 at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o9gevp5x8c

July 24 2011

and the time before at brainshock where I played Delux the first time

 

[Neon!]

Thats an impressive win and I'll admit you're better at the matchup than I am. Just in analyzing the way we have to play the matchup though it's not hard to see how much of a disadvantage we have, we have to run away the entire time and hope they make a mistake, its easy to exploit them on RC and they shouldnt be chasing you aggressively on the BF platforms. Vinnie or Will please get in here back me up!

 

[Vinnie]

- 2

 

[Luigi player]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o9gevp5x8c

July 24 2011

and the time before at brainshock where I played Delux the first time

this looks like a really bad/annoying runaway MU if you don't downB... :x

 

[Ripple]

- 2

no

10trollvinnies

 

[DeLux]

I'm so bad thoughhhhh




Ripple is good at the matchup, but it would be like pitting a top 5 DK vs like KS random with any character.

 

[Ripple]

I'm so bad thoughhhhh




Ripple is good at the matchup, but it would be like pitting a top 5 DK vs like KS random with any character.

you're not a random

 

[DeLux]

I'm not even power ranked in KS :\

That's like
the definition of a random lol

 

[Neon!]

Delux, I hadnt heard of your before but I think you're great. Ripple has plenty of experience in this matchup.

 

[crifer]

Ripple has a really nice movement with DK, but he didn´t played that MU "perfect", there were a lot of thigns which he could´ve done better. But still impressive. And DeLux, your IC´s look really good, I only knew you from the fox boards and frame data research ^^

 

[Ripple]

if I didn't play the match up perfect then it has to be easier than what I already say it is, right?

 

[crifer]

That´s only if you assume that the IC player played "perfect", but you´re right = )
I´ve watched it again, and I´m amazed by your movement in the third game :-)

 

[DeLux]

Ripple has a really nice movement with DK, but he didn´t played that MU "perfect", there were a lot of thigns which he could´ve done better. But still impressive. And DeLux, your IC´s look really good, I only knew you from the fox boards and frame data research ^^

lol what?
The Fox boards?

I think I've had maybe two posts there


This is why I'm bad and random. People have been telling me I play characters I didn't even know existed in Brawl. Like someone was like "he plays ICs and Lucario" earlier this week. And now I have a pocket Fox. Shenanigans :\

 

[Ripple]

lol what?
The Fox boards?

I think I've had maybe two posts there


This is why I'm bad and random. People have been telling me I play characters I didn't even know existed in Brawl. Like someone was like "he plays ICs and Lucario" earlier this week. And now I have a pocket Fox. Shenanigans :\

I believe they are mixing you and Lux,. he plays lucario. idk

 

[DeLux]

Ripple, come to my tourney this weekend and we can salty runback MM to determine the matchup ratio

If I win, it's +1 ICs. If you win, it's +1 DK. This time I won't get shield broken or Blizzard off stage on back to back stocks


But imo, it's no worse than +2 ICs, but closer to +1. One of those inbetweeners imo because the stage matters a lot

 

[Neon!]

No DK has ever beaten Vinnie's IC's as far as I know, I played a bunch of matches with his IC's online last night and he still beat me even though he dropped half of his grabs and I'm a veteran wifi kong. Ill upload the matches soon.

 

[Ripple]

online

that's all I saw

and it doesn't even matter, that's vinnie. no DK player is on his same skill level who knows how to play the match up

 

[crifer]

I played that MU this weekend again and it seemed really even, but I lost the first match because I was button mashing and buffered a fair while being released offstage which ended in a SD. Second match I wanted to spike nana, tripped while running to the edge and getting killed by popos fair, lol.