TKD
Smash Lord
/\ I think I learned that match-up from April to now. I don't know how you'd know that though.
P.S. forgot that was off-topic.
P.S. forgot that was off-topic.
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Match up Export #17: Lucario| New Discussion
- Thread starter Conviction
- Start date
Variable
Smash Ace
Robfox
Smash Lord
wow you are so right im thinkin of Wolf lmao fail on my part
Steam
Smash Hero
Lucario can't sideB chaingrab anyone. you can mash out of it. Before that was known we could though...
at least we still have upthrow.
at least we still have upthrow.
.AC.
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,122
he can't chaingrab wolf either with sideb which makes you look ridiculously ignorant.make sure you are right before making assumptions.
Steam
Smash Hero
tis true but sideB depending on %s still sets up ****. though any grab really does. But I'm sure as fox mains I'm sure you're used to getting ***** everytime you get grabbed. =/
ForwardAirRage!
Smash Journeyman
oh God thts so true... 
pika grab **** :0
pika grab **** :0Elite Cowdung
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2011
- Messages
- 20
this matchup is very even but in the end fox will win because he can KO right when lucario really starts to get overwhelming
TKD
Smash Lord
Sorry for my previous post in this thread. I'll post some actual stuff about Fox on Lucario. Remember that many of these things don't affect the actual character match-up more than they do play-styles.
- Lucario's fsmash has enough cool-down to dash usmash him as it ends.
- Fox does very well at close range combat compared to Lucario (nair, ac bair, grab, moving, jab, even ftilt is good here), and aura spheres don't compete very well with Fox's projectile game.
- Utilt is pretty good because you can block right after hitting him and punish if he dairs.
- Fox's fair from an angle below Lucario beats all of his aerials.
- If you're short or full hopping while Lucario whiffs a dair, there's time to uair/nair/bair him (barely, unless you use nair which isn't so barely).
- If you block a SH fair, you can roll through Lucario for free because none of his options can catch up to it from the SH.
- If he miss spaces a SH fair you can SH fair or usmash from block. An odd nair from block would hit too if he's in range although that's not the most effective you can go.
- If you block a dair and are in range, you have time to usmash/nair from block.
- Blocking is good in momentum when you can shield-grab a falling dair or sloppy air-dodge.
- Since he's kind of vulnerable in the air, you may be able to count on the opponent air-dodging to bait him. His landing aerials can be shield-grabbed or dash attacked, as can be sloppy air-dodge landings too.
- Lucario's actually in an OK position if he can cross you up with mobility or a pivot.
- If you read upb's trajectory, you can shine it. There's probably no punish if not, anyhow.
- Fox's grab range is bigger than Lucario's and he slides better from walk.
- Lucario's dash-grab is only 8 frames (very good).
- Laser, bair, and mikehaze (push him away with nair/bair and punish whiffed shield-grab) Lucario at low % when he can cg you. During a cg, don't spam jump because you'll waste your jump. I buffer shine after each throw, but the opponent should be able to bait that.
- Lucario can't do much about cross-ups, so they're good (eg. nair at his back to utilt, grab, or maybe wait).
- You can bait Lucario's fair if he's in the air, to airjump nair him and keep momentum. This is safer than using fair and risk being air-dodged out of your momentum.
- Powerblock and shine+hop are good vs spheres.
- Standing blaster hits crouching Lucario.
- If you're already performing fair, Lucario will hit himself if he tries to fair.
I can't really think of many disadvantages in this match-up. Lucario's crossups are good. He can't wait around as much as he'd like to though (he pretty much can't do it at all).
- Lucario's fsmash has enough cool-down to dash usmash him as it ends.
- Fox does very well at close range combat compared to Lucario (nair, ac bair, grab, moving, jab, even ftilt is good here), and aura spheres don't compete very well with Fox's projectile game.
- Utilt is pretty good because you can block right after hitting him and punish if he dairs.
- Fox's fair from an angle below Lucario beats all of his aerials.
- If you're short or full hopping while Lucario whiffs a dair, there's time to uair/nair/bair him (barely, unless you use nair which isn't so barely).
- If you block a SH fair, you can roll through Lucario for free because none of his options can catch up to it from the SH.
- If he miss spaces a SH fair you can SH fair or usmash from block. An odd nair from block would hit too if he's in range although that's not the most effective you can go.
- If you block a dair and are in range, you have time to usmash/nair from block.
- Blocking is good in momentum when you can shield-grab a falling dair or sloppy air-dodge.
- Since he's kind of vulnerable in the air, you may be able to count on the opponent air-dodging to bait him. His landing aerials can be shield-grabbed or dash attacked, as can be sloppy air-dodge landings too.
- Lucario's actually in an OK position if he can cross you up with mobility or a pivot.
- If you read upb's trajectory, you can shine it. There's probably no punish if not, anyhow.
- Fox's grab range is bigger than Lucario's and he slides better from walk.
- Lucario's dash-grab is only 8 frames (very good).
- Laser, bair, and mikehaze (push him away with nair/bair and punish whiffed shield-grab) Lucario at low % when he can cg you. During a cg, don't spam jump because you'll waste your jump. I buffer shine after each throw, but the opponent should be able to bait that.
- Lucario can't do much about cross-ups, so they're good (eg. nair at his back to utilt, grab, or maybe wait).
- You can bait Lucario's fair if he's in the air, to airjump nair him and keep momentum. This is safer than using fair and risk being air-dodged out of your momentum.
- Powerblock and shine+hop are good vs spheres.
- Standing blaster hits crouching Lucario.
- If you're already performing fair, Lucario will hit himself if he tries to fair.
I can't really think of many disadvantages in this match-up. Lucario's crossups are good. He can't wait around as much as he'd like to though (he pretty much can't do it at all).
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I hate this MU, I only beat pocket foxes (I lost to a fox at Genesis 2 named Pink in some friendlies though after getting a good lead one time iirc, ugh such a dumb char w/ the boring looking chip play, I'm just being salty I guess haha) because they don't account for spacing fox properly (like you do in Melee, you keep about the same space, except in Melee you're zoning Fox's nair usually instead of his dash/SH mixups). If they're good they'll just wait you out and then kill you later. Basically my strat after seeing TKD murder a lucario (no offense to Ice, he's good, but TKD just knows the MU too well), is half of the time to give Fox a whole lot of room and make footsies and bait doing a lot of full hop out of SH laser range and juuuust beyond normal dash punish range, and make yourself look sorta punishable, lots of foxes like to run in on punishable looking stuff with a SH AD -> grab, uair, running usmash, utilt etc., and if you're full hopping and giving fox a lot of room, most conventional foxes that don't know the MU will whiff a lot of things trying to get to you.
If they're smart though, they just push in a little more or fully commit to camping, which sucks frankly.
Everything about this MU is dumb, fox just does his normal thing, Lucario runs ragged trying to get a punish in, Fox unlike other chars doesn't have a lot of problems landing, which is hard to abuse or zone vertically. dair oos is actually a decent punish for blocked stuff b/c of fox's more close range stuff, but it's only a punish strictly speaking. Fox has faster CQC, etc. If for some odd reason Lucario lives past usmash/uair kill percents, Lucario's aerials become safe enough on block sometimes, depending on percents, but it's otherwise pretty tough to properly put aerial pressure on fox.
Unlike other spacies, he's not really prone to getting edgeguarded as hard as the others.
If the fox has an AD habit or goes autopilot w/ dair and doesn't wait to see where you SDI and whatnot, you can sometimes get a jab in. Strutterstep smash can sometimes be useful on fox while he's on the ledge trying to get back onstage.
disclaimer: I know most of this is based on mistakes and whatnot, but that's sorta how you play this MU, and the best way to go about it as Lucario imo. Fox isn't going to let you use your tools in a normal toe to toe unless you space and pull off some good mindgames lol.
sideB falling is a good option, because lucario can actually get some good momentum from landing on at low percents, pretty much combos into his dash grab, dash attack, fair strings, etc. if you land it, it's risky since fox moves a lot though lol (that's where you need to use more of that ASC threat to make him guess a bit more)
ASC I think actually might have some good psychological applications in this MU, if you charge AS behind him on crossup, fox has a tricky guessing game of whether to shine, jump away, or continue shielding (or punish if he calls the bluff), and with that you can shield cancel -> SH aerial several responses since you can shield cancel it immediately, but that's sorta a player based thing and not really a MU thing
Fox's advantage for sure, I like taking fox to lylat personally (alleviates a little on laser camp because of the tilting, and it messes around with some of his recovery options, while the curving of our ES doesn't hurt us as much as most recoveries on the stage), I sorta like Yoshi's too just because of the plat allowing for guessing games. Avoid Halberd and imo delfino is dumb too, unless you plan on using MK maybe.
If they're smart though, they just push in a little more or fully commit to camping, which sucks frankly.
Everything about this MU is dumb, fox just does his normal thing, Lucario runs ragged trying to get a punish in, Fox unlike other chars doesn't have a lot of problems landing, which is hard to abuse or zone vertically. dair oos is actually a decent punish for blocked stuff b/c of fox's more close range stuff, but it's only a punish strictly speaking. Fox has faster CQC, etc. If for some odd reason Lucario lives past usmash/uair kill percents, Lucario's aerials become safe enough on block sometimes, depending on percents, but it's otherwise pretty tough to properly put aerial pressure on fox.
Unlike other spacies, he's not really prone to getting edgeguarded as hard as the others.
If the fox has an AD habit or goes autopilot w/ dair and doesn't wait to see where you SDI and whatnot, you can sometimes get a jab in. Strutterstep smash can sometimes be useful on fox while he's on the ledge trying to get back onstage.
disclaimer: I know most of this is based on mistakes and whatnot, but that's sorta how you play this MU, and the best way to go about it as Lucario imo. Fox isn't going to let you use your tools in a normal toe to toe unless you space and pull off some good mindgames lol.
sideB falling is a good option, because lucario can actually get some good momentum from landing on at low percents, pretty much combos into his dash grab, dash attack, fair strings, etc. if you land it, it's risky since fox moves a lot though lol (that's where you need to use more of that ASC threat to make him guess a bit more)
ASC I think actually might have some good psychological applications in this MU, if you charge AS behind him on crossup, fox has a tricky guessing game of whether to shine, jump away, or continue shielding (or punish if he calls the bluff), and with that you can shield cancel -> SH aerial several responses since you can shield cancel it immediately, but that's sorta a player based thing and not really a MU thing
Fox's advantage for sure, I like taking fox to lylat personally (alleviates a little on laser camp because of the tilting, and it messes around with some of his recovery options, while the curving of our ES doesn't hurt us as much as most recoveries on the stage), I sorta like Yoshi's too just because of the plat allowing for guessing games. Avoid Halberd and imo delfino is dumb too, unless you plan on using MK maybe.
Steam
Smash Hero
If played correctly by fox this matchup is a borderline hard counter in fox's favor. fox pretty much exploits the two things that lucario is really bad at countering, hard camping and pure rushdown/mixups. he can play the keepaway that forces lucario to commit to things while absolutely destroying him inside. he can also land kills extremely easily on lucario with his upsmash and pressure him well from pretty much anywhere. only good thing lucario has on fox is how hard he can punish him and how well lucario can gimp fox. At mid/high level it's kinda close to even but as you start approaching top level and less mistakes are made on both sides I think it starts to shift exponentially in fox's favor.
I'd say +2 fox just because there aren't many top foxes around to really expose lucario... but I could easily see this as a +3 for fox. If pikachu actually helped lucario in matchups besides this one I'd secondary pika lol.
I'd say +2 fox just because there aren't many top foxes around to really expose lucario... but I could easily see this as a +3 for fox. If pikachu actually helped lucario in matchups besides this one I'd secondary pika lol.
Fox has 3 things that Lucario hates, Hard camping mixups and killing.
Lucario's Aura thing won't really matter for Fox because Usmash kills at 100%. He forces Lucario to approach with SHL. The only good thing Lucario has in this MU is hard punishing and gimping him. Sooo i'll say +2.
Lucario's Aura thing won't really matter for Fox because Usmash kills at 100%. He forces Lucario to approach with SHL. The only good thing Lucario has in this MU is hard punishing and gimping him. Sooo i'll say +2.
TKD
Smash Lord
Few Fox players are good enough that they "should" win the match-up anyway. If you check out Fox/Lucario player's skill levels in the US, Lucario will win even with the disadvantage.
Oh yeah funny thing is that you can SDI Lucario's force palm, because the grab works as a grab, but the strike works as a hit instead of a throw. Unexpected...I learned it accidentally, I think by trying to struggle late.
Oh yeah funny thing is that you can SDI Lucario's force palm, because the grab works as a grab, but the strike works as a hit instead of a throw. Unexpected...I learned it accidentally, I think by trying to struggle late.
Steam
Smash Hero
SHUT UP TKD SHHHHHHHH
don't tell them that none of lucario's stringing bull**** actually works >_>
but also Lucario can pummel release fox (and other spacies) off the ledge and be in a really good position to gimp him. so if you're fox try not to get grabbed there.
don't tell them that none of lucario's stringing bull**** actually works >_>
but also Lucario can pummel release fox (and other spacies) off the ledge and be in a really good position to gimp him. so if you're fox try not to get grabbed there.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
dair oos is pretty handy for this MU as lucario, because he desperately needs some sort of fast shield option, and this tends to take care of a lot of mixups (dair has a deceptively good horizontal hitbox, I think the main reason being it tends to hit the opponent's overextended hurtbox when used in this way. I also think Lucario will want to use his short dash for spacing on the ground since fox is hard to space vertically, and use a lot of ASC tricks, because of how cancelable it is and how much it helps his mobility/threat when spacing it around someone. Fox just needs to mix in between lasers/long distance pressuring, and strong shield pressure/CQC, fox wins in both of these pretty decisively, it's when you let Lucario get that pressury "middle" that he'll start to have a decent amount of ability to fight back.
Fox can do some cool stuff of course with bair on block, fair, nair stuff, etc.
Fox can do some cool stuff of course with bair on block, fair, nair stuff, etc.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
if you are smart about your shield pressure this matchup is ez-peasy!