Match up Export #13: Olimar | New Discussion

[Code Lyon]

Match-Up Export
Fox vs. Olimar​

________________________________

Things to keep in mind while discussing!

* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.

With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

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Olimar ​

KEY POINTS

Advantages


Disadvantages


Summary


IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Olimar Strikes
* To Be Classified:

Final Destination,Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Olimar Bans
* To Be Classified:

Final Destination,Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Olimar Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Possible Secondaries


Videos & Other Outside Resources

VERDICT ??:??


MATCH-UP DISCUSSION GO!​

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

this match up is really annoying.

olimars pikman can inturapt what you doing, not directly, but indirectly, like if you have a few on you and try and shine them off, the shine last longer than normal and you can get punished for it.

classic things to say, polimar dies stupid early, and his recovery is terrible.
recomend perfect shdl for this match up.

 

[Conviction]

When he throws Pikmin I say IA Nair them as they are coming,

 

[C.R.Z]

i really hate this match up with a vengence. use lazers to shoot pikmen out of the sky lol. nair into jcc alot to avoid getting sheild grabbed. grab alot to gain ground. use fair while oli full hops or is on platforms above. try and get upairs on oli as he dies quite early.

thats all i got. i dont know much of this match up since i hate it so >.< its in olimars favour i think

 

[Moon-Doggie]

I have alot about to say about this MU. Generally it's close to even if not slightly
in Lawlimars favor. 55:45 Oli Let's break down as to why I say this.

Range: When it comes down to it whether it be in the air or ground Oli wins. His neutral
air kills any follow up you have and if your above him its about 50/50 for your Dair
to go through his uair (Depends on the pikmin.)
Because of his range you can't approach from the air because of Fox's limited air
momentum. It's as simple as Olimar Trotting away and pivot grabbing.w
In the ground it's very difficult to get into the zone with him due to his smashes
and grabs which can keep you at bay.

Oli also has a CG that works till about 35-40 percent. Grab Dthrow>Fsmash>Dthrow>Fair
(maybe one last grab)

Though his recovery is very limited Oli is very floaty and is able to come back to the stage
without using a jump and defend himself well while recovering. If you try to ledgeguard him it is as simple as jumping into a Uair.

When it comes to Camping Oli will win when it is a flat stage like FD but if there are platforms like BF
You can SHTL all the pikmin he throws under the platform if he jumps any higher the pikmin will land
above you on the platform. It isn't advised to camp an Olimar the best place to be when it comes down
to it is very close range. You want to put in highpressure on the Olimar and force Dodges.
Most Oli's are programmed to be hit and run fighters, they will do whatever it takes to get away
and have there pikmin score there damage.

If you stay close to them and pressure them consistently then the game will be in your favor.
If you are mid range or too far that gives time for the oli to think and outspace you.

When it comes to kill potential your both about even. Olimars smashes are slightly weaker
but he can kill with grabs too (Blue and Purple)

Fox has slightly higher priority when it comes to some of his moves. His Utilt combos low and
is recomended against Oli. His Nair goes through Oli's Nair from time to time which can save you
from the dreaded Nair>Usmash combo.

Good stages to pick against Oli would be Halberd, Lylat, and Battlefield.

Halberd has no solid ground so if you are to ever edgeguard and oli and make it through the
first Uair he will then be forced to UpB as a last resort and kill himself, in turn you avoid a
stage spike and just float off. Worth the damage for a kill. It is small so staying within
his awkward close zone should be easier.

Lylat makes it more difficult for the Oli to Camp and recover, the way the stage tilts makes
him adjust his Aim for tethering and throwing pikmin at all times. Combos become stronger
for you now because your grabs will set up to the Oli landing on the small platforms from
where you are at an advantage. Poke him from under with AC Fair and Bair or come up
with FH Uair (Itll Autocancel) Into a Utilt, if sheilded he will slide off the platform allowing
for further follow up. These same tactics apply to Battlefeild.

So general Strategy, high pressure close quarters and if you do it consistently enough
youll have yourself a Fairly Even matchup. If you do it like theres no tomorow 55:45 Oli's
favor.

Oh and if there's any doubt in my strategy I fight one of the best Oli's in the nation
from a day to day basis x3
Oh and he was taught by my friend who mains Oli.... and I play him all the time...

Some more tips:

Spot Dodging a grab will not work. The pikmin will grab you on the way back to
Oli.

Oli can grab you from the ledge so don't ledge hop too much or plank
or stay Idle.

Oli can also smash you from the ledge with the fsmash. The pikmin will
fall and hit you.

Oli can whistle through your Uair and retaliate. Same goes for Usmash
so don't telegraph the move to him.

A good approach is by making yourself seem aggro and mindless and
run in. He will try to Fsmash you SH and do a airdodge at this point your
in the close range you want to be in and punish accordingly.

Grabs work well against Oli, Dthrow into a running sheild and when he
lands repeat.

 

[C.R.Z]

i actually know this matchup now lol, played an amazining oli yesterday. its 55-45 oli, 50 -50 or 55-45 fox, need to look into it more (fox actually doesnt struggle as much as i thought)

 

[Exceladon City]

I played Hilt for days on end. Fox must main Nair and secondary lasers. Nair saves you from Pikmin to an extent and since it has some decent reach and knockback, it keeps Oli away for a little. His CG isn't really that big of an issue. It's his follow ups after the 2nd or 3rd one that'll **** you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POxrhekPDbQ
Go to 0:19
This little combo goes a little bit longer and usually starts out with a chaingrab. You can jump out around 33-42% range if there is another grab involved DI behind Olimar.

Olimar's biggest weakness is being taken to the air. Which is where Fox excels. Dthrow is your BFF in this match. Basically, you need not miss an attack when you're pressuring Olimar. If you do, run away and break out your secondary. Fox outcamps Olimar but not by too much.

As far as killing goes, you're both light and kill exceptionally hard, but Oli kills alot harder with less effort. Purple Usmashes are killing Fox on FD at around 80% fresh no DI. With DI I'd give it like 90. Bthrow will more than likely not be used in killing you since Usmash ***** Fox so much harder. Nair to Usmash is a sneaky kill set up.

Fox will have to be clever in nailing Usmash. Whistle guard is mad gay. Dsmash will probably used more since it sends Olimar horizontally in which you can edgeguard the tether. BEWARE! Smart Olimars will throw purples if they have one so you better keep an eye out for them.

Aspeaking of recovery, if you Illusion, GO FOR THE LEDGE! Utilt to Usmash is nasty.

 

[Turazrok]

, polimar dies stupid early

I disagree.

 

[Conviction]

I disagree.

Gimp or Usmash anyone?

 

[Turazrok]

Gimp or Usmash anyone?

You really think it's that easy?

 

[Conviction]

You really think it's that easy?

No. But I believe olimar can die early.


XD why would anyone think it is that easy?

 

[Exceladon City]

Whistle guard is mad gay.

^Did you not see this?

 

[Conviction]

^Did you not see this?

But would he want to whistle gaurd offstage?

Purple Pikmin with correct DI doesn't kill us THAT early.

 

[Exceladon City]

But would he want to whistle gaurd offstage?

Purple Pikmin with correct DI doesn't kill us THAT early.

YES! I play one of the best Olimar's in my region. If he's not whistle guarding offstage, he's looking to die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSaxcWkkogo&feature=related

3:30-3:50

 

[C.R.Z]

ive played a really pro olimar.its easyer for us to kill him than it is for him to kill, thats not including fox edge hogging olimar

 

[Turazrok]

ive played a really pro olimar.its easyer for us to kill him than it is for him to kill, thats not including fox edge hogging olimar

Don't you have like one kill move that's remotely safe?

 

[Conviction]

Uair,Bair,Usmash,or Dsmash?

Un-foxacted pesron...'08 was 2 years ago.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

But would he want to whistle gaurd offstage?

Purple Pikmin with correct DI doesn't kill us THAT early.

Hell yeah he would. Whistling edge guards is what all Olimar's do, why wouldn't he want to? It's better than air dodging and is one of our only options when recovering. Also, fox isn't the best at gimping Olimar because he's not able to stay off stage with him. Fox relies on catching Olimar as he gets back near the stage, not while he's out in the blue. Fox kills Olimar's with dsmash (leading to an easy edge hog) or usmash much, much easier than he does with any edge guard gimps.

And yes. Purple up smash does kill that early.

Moon Doggie knows what he's talking about. Listen to that kid.

Just wondering, what Olimar do you play against Moon? You know a lot more about Olimar than most when discussing their matchup against us.

Oreo's right on everything he's said as well, except that utilt to usmash doesn't work on fox, just falco, to my knowledge. Their illusions work in different ways which is what causes it to happen.

Few other things.

Grab Combos: Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Fair/Usmash works on fox from zero. If Olimar takes out the last dthrow, fair/usmash can either be followed up by another regrab (leading to another fair) or replaced with yellow fsmash and again, followed up with a regrab if the fox doesn't jump. Back when Bowyer played fox I got dthrow -> dthrow -> dthrow -> purple pikmin toss -> fair -> dthrow -> usmash off, so yeah, there's lots of room for combo potential on fox with Olimar, so don't get grabbed at low percents, and if you do, hold back and away and jump. If there's any way for you to get out of a grab combo, you can get out by jumping.

Oh, that's right. Moon Doggie was wrong about CPs. Not entirely, just a little bit. Lylat doesn't mess up our tether at all, not sure why it would. Lylat's actually good for us for a few reasons, one being that it doesn't affect our recovery while it does our opponents, in most cases. We get more yellows on lylat. The tilting is good for us, actually, as is the platform setup. Halberd is a great stage for Olimar as well, but if you're confident.. I guess? I mean, both of have amazing vertical kills. Halberd's big, so if you don't like FD, don't CP halberd. And if you do like FD, cp it instead. I'm not a fan of FD against fox. Platforms are important to make your dair easier to avoid.

Grabs work well against Oli

This is more important than any of you all know.

Matchup's either 55:45 or 60:40 Olimar. It's not even.

 

[C.R.Z]

Don't you have like one kill move that's remotely safe?

Uair,Bair,Usmash,Uptilt,Nair, shine or Dsmash?

Un-foxacted pesron...'08 was 2 years ago.

fixed

and i lol'd

 

[Conviction]

Does these grab combos stop working at a certian precent?

 

[Exceladon City]

I said you can jump out in the mid 30 to low 40 percent range.

 

[Conviction]

Oh >.< Well just eat 30% its not that hard to deal it back. I'd let pikmin throws deal the damage.

 

[MJG]

This MU is not even CLOSE to being even.

Don't be biased please >_>

 

[Conviction]

Its not even CLOSE to being unwinnable.

See what I did there?

(Thanks again and come back when you back it up)

 

[RPK]

Actually if Im guessing right, it works the exact same way as on Falco. -puts on hat and glasses then pulls out chalk board- There are some characters in the game that suffer from a glitch. It isnt persay landing lag, but at the same time it is. The characters that suffer from it that are noticable from what I remember are Falco, Fox, Ganondorf, Marth, Pikachu. There are more but those are some of the more noticable ones. In order to initiate it the character has to do a recovery move such as Falco's Up or Side and grab the ledge. After grabbing the ledge, the lag from their recovery move stays with them till they touch the ground FROM THE AIR. So just rolling on stage from the ledge, or getting on normally isnt going to help. You can tell because you wont be able to move for a while. Marth for example, 30 frames of landing lag. Its terrible. If you want a visual example, go to training mode and pick ganondorf. Up-B the ledge and press forward to get on. Have the other be Dedede. Have Ganon walk up to Dedede. Dedede from there will D-throw him, and then afterwards a Forward smash. If done right, it should register as a 2 hit combo. Pretty silly huh? Ganon still had his landing lag from the Up-B even when walking and what initiated that landing lag once more was Dedede D-throwing him. Which then gave him enough time to land that forward smash. Its pretty **** nasty...What does this have to do with the Utilt to Upsmash? Im assuming the utilt knocked you out of illusion. From there you touched the ground which then initiated the landing lag which THEN gave him enough time to land that Upsmash. Same thing applies to Falco

 

[C.R.Z]

This MU is not even CLOSE to being even.

Don't be biased please >_>

lol its pretty even, both characters can rack up damage, both can kill each other pretty easily, both are easily edge guarded. both have good close combat aswell as projectile combat.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Actually if Im guessing right, it works the exact same way as on Falco. -puts on hat and glasses then pulls out chalk board- There are some characters in the game that suffer from a glitch. It isnt persay landing lag, but at the same time it is. The characters that suffer from it that are noticable from what I remember are Falco, Fox, Ganondorf, Marth, Pikachu. There are more but those are some of the more noticable ones. In order to initiate it the character has to do a recovery move such as Falco's Up or Side and grab the ledge. After grabbing the ledge, the lag from their recovery move stays with them till they touch the ground FROM THE AIR. So just rolling on stage from the ledge, or getting on normally isnt going to help. You can tell because you wont be able to move for a while. Marth for example, 30 frames of landing lag. Its terrible. If you want a visual example, go to training mode and pick ganondorf. Up-B the ledge and press forward to get on. Have the other be Dedede. Have Ganon walk up to Dedede. Dedede from there will D-throw him, and then afterwards a Forward smash. If done right, it should register as a 2 hit combo. Pretty silly huh? Ganon still had his landing lag from the Up-B even when walking and what initiated that landing lag once more was Dedede D-throwing him. Which then gave him enough time to land that forward smash. Its pretty **** nasty...What does this have to do with the Utilt to Upsmash? Im assuming the utilt knocked you out of illusion. From there you touched the ground which then initiated the landing lag which THEN gave him enough time to land that Upsmash. Same thing applies to Falco

I just tested it, it doesn't work. The thing with Falco is that the hitbox is in a place to where Falco hits Olimar at the exact same time Olimar hits falco, causing both to leave their animations. Olimar leaving his animation goes back onto the ground, since that was the initial starting point for the utilt. Falco, on the other hand, goes into free fall. Fox, however, his illusion does not work in a way that would cause him and Olimar to both hit each other at the same time. It doesn't have anything to do with how the lag after the illusion works, it's how and where the hitbox for it is placed.

 

[Exceladon City]

Yeah Falco's Phantasm does have a hitbox in front of him while Fox's Illusion hitbox is behind him.

 

[Variable]

Olimar has a slight advantage on Fox. I'd said 55:45 Some go as far as 60:40, but that depends more or less on the stage IMO. I think fox has to be patient in this MU, because of how campy and difficult Olimar is to approach... This what gives Oli the advantage as Fox players are mostly aggressive, which is how fox tends to keep in control of the the match. It's really not that bad of a MU though. Both characters have good projectile games, can edge guard / gimp, and both can wrack up damage nicely.

 

[Conviction]

Fox aggressive when?

'08?

 

[Variable]

When is fox not aggressive?? Other than Laser camping, or projectile wars Fox is normally aggressive. Sometimes we have to be careful about approaching, but for the most part we are constantly moving around, shooting lasers, and trying to get a good look.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

To be honest, I believe the best way to beat Olimar is to just run up to him and grab.

I remember talking to Pyronic Star/Logic a long time ago and he was talking to be about how all Olimar does is grab and smash, or camp. Use Fox's speed to close the gap extremely quickly to grab and forward throw or back throw the Olimar depending on stage positioning. You are going to want to keep Olimar off the stage. Time your edgeguard as well as your attack. Wait for the whistle and regrab or empty SHFF at the Oli and intercept again.

 

[C.R.Z]

To be honest, I believe the best way to beat Olimar is to just run up to him and grab.

I remember talking to Pyronic Star/Logic a long time ago and he was talking to be about how all Olimar does is grab and smash, or camp. Use Fox's speed to close the gap extremely quickly to grab and forward throw or back throw the Olimar depending on stage positioning. You are going to want to keep Olimar off the stage. Time your edgeguard as well as your attack. Wait for the whistle and regrab or empty SHFF at the Oli and intercept again.

so true^

 

[C.R.Z]

sorry for double post but this thread needs to be revisited in order to finish the ratio. once both fox and olimar boards agree, we can move on to stage discussion.

 

[KillerJawz]

A double post is two posts made within a 24 hour period, right next to eachother without somebody posting in between.

 

[C.R.Z]

A double post is two posts made within a 24 hour period, right next to eachother without somebody posting in between.

o ok, thanks KJ

 

[Lesleyk]

Time your edgeguard as well as your attack. Wait for the whistle and regrab or ....

Let go of the ledge and shine him.

Correct me if Im wrong
If the olimar is sent horizontal, the only option they got is to recover from below. Which gives us Fox users the chance to shine them offstage while they are trying to recover.

 

[GUARD]

I only have 2 things to say ATM...

1= someone earlier said that Halberd is a good CP.......NO WAY MAN. Olimar kills upwards VERY well. WAAAYYY too risky. even Olimars throw kills Fox early there.....

2= I'm not sure if this was posted but Fox may SHINE ALL Pikmins Olimar throws at him. (including prurple.) so a SHTL to shine may come in use if your smart and are have a camping battle.... because of this, I say Fox can outcamp Olimar. I'm not saying Fox is better overall.......but in camping...yes, I do.

 

[Robfox]

LOL now that Brood ***** Apex yall wanna discuss Oli xD
good 2 no though I say watch Yui vs Brood he gives good techniques
Nair is really smart 2 use against an Oli

 

[C.R.Z]

LOL now that Brood ***** Apex yall wanna discuss Oli xD
good 2 no though I say watch Yui vs Brood he gives good techniques
Nair is really smart 2 use against an Oli

well i was personally looking into the match up before brood *****, it was just luck that brood made an appearance like he did. TKD said btw that Brood claims that this is a 50/50 match up. Discuss?