Match-up Discussions: Olimar

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS Match-up Discussion: Olimar

Olimar's side-b camping, keepaway game, exceptional grab range, and early kills make him an exceptionally powerful foe. How can ZSS approach, and who comes out on top?

SWF Official Match-up Chart 2.0 says: -1
We say:

Formal discussion in progress.

 

[NickRiddle]

The harder MU of the two you posted, and this one has no posts.

No Olimar exp, can't help.

 

[C.J.]

Yeah, but Justin, I play Marth so it matters more.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm really hoping we get some good Olimar players in this thread. Can anyone contact Salem directly and ask him to make a comment here? Dakpo and V115 have experience too, I'm sure they'll comment.

I've never even played this match-up, like one time, so...

 

[DeLux]

Fight the space man with space Bairs
Use platforms while juggling to avoid Whistle > Nair stuff
Use Pikmin to refresh moves or use GR > Jab String
Kill option from Grab in from GR > Uair starting at 125 if fresh
Try not to fall behind since you'll have to make a read to approach


Bair to Jab mixups > Olimar shield

However, this must be spaced or it doesn't end well. And given that it's dependent on spacing against a tiny target and then being covered by jab mixups, you could see how it could be mind numbing if the Olimar is disciplined with his shield so we'll see this as "low/mid risk to low mid reward" option or the wall strategy. Alternatively, you could also flip jump away after Bair, but I always feel vulnerable after that. However doing so would condition him to chase which opens up the jab game again from shield dropping.


The RPS is roughly like this and this is where you see we lose from the ground:
Olimars Shield to Usmash > Dash Attack
Our Dash Attack > His pivot grab (if spaced correctly since it tends to go over grabs or abuse no grab armor)
Olimar pivot Grab > Shield Approach (or Froll to buffer jab)
Our Shield Approach (or Froll to buffer jab) > Olimar Fsmash (unless he stutter step charges Fsmash)
Olimar Fsmash > Dash Grab
Dash Grab > Shield to Usmash

As you can see, his options are "hit the F out of her", and our options are "poke him". If you're going to win, you have to maximize your punishments off of the pokes without getting too greedy and falling into the getting the F hit out of her punishes on approach.

Olimar's Fair plays in there as well, with something like it loses to our shield but beats dash grab, so most Olimar's I see play the MU don't work too much off of Fair against us as I think their goal is to stay on the ground.

Unfortunately the only times we should be getting Dsmashes in this MU is if we can use our mobility to bait him (which typically requires him overcommitting due to being behind) or a hard read once we get a poke in.

You can use Plasma Whip to lag on pikmin returning to him if you think he's going to try to punish it by dash grabbing it.


Probably a -1 imo
I'd personally go ICs instead, but if I didn't have ICs/Falco to choose from ZSS would be next in line for me to try if I were getting pooped on for some reason

 

[Dakpo]

Fight the space man with space Bairs
Use platforms while juggling to avoid Whistle > Nair stuff
Use Pikmin to refresh moves or use GR > Jab String
Kill option from Grab in from GR > Uair starting at 125 if fresh
Try not to fall behind since you'll have to make a read to approach


Bair to Jab mixups > Olimar shield

However, this must be spaced or it doesn't end well. And given that it's dependent on spacing against a tiny target and then being covered by jab mixups, you could see how it could be mind numbing if the Olimar is disciplined with his shield so we'll see this as "low/mid risk to low mid reward" option or the wall strategy. Alternatively, you could also flip jump away after Bair, but I always feel vulnerable after that. However doing so would condition him to chase which opens up the jab game again from shield dropping.


The RPS is roughly like this and this is where you see we lose from the ground:
Olimars Shield to Usmash > Dash Attack
Our Dash Attack > His pivot grab (if spaced correctly since it tends to go over grabs or abuse no grab armor)
Olimar pivot Grab > Shield Approach (or Froll to buffer jab)
Our Shield Approach (or Froll to buffer jab) > Olimar Fsmash (unless he stutter step charges Fsmash)
Olimar Fsmash > Dash Grab
Dash Grab > Shield to Usmash

As you can see, his options are "hit the F out of her", and our options are "poke him". If you're going to win, you have to maximize your punishments off of the pokes without getting too greedy and falling into the getting the F hit out of her punishes on approach.

Olimar's Fair plays in there as well, with something like it loses to our shield but beats dash grab, so most Olimar's I see play the MU don't work too much off of Fair against us as I think their goal is to stay on the ground.

Unfortunately the only times we should be getting Dsmashes in this MU is if we can use our mobility to bait him (which typically requires him overcommitting due to being behind) or a hard read once we get a poke in.

You can use Plasma Whip to lag on pikmin returning to him if you think he's going to try to punish it by dash grabbing it.


Probably a -1 imo
I'd personally go ICs instead, but if I didn't have ICs/Falco to choose from ZSS would be next in line for me to try if I were getting pooped on for some reason

Btw, Bairing his shield then buffering turn around jab is a terrible Idea. But Buffering a Down B is ok

 

[infiniteV115]

Bair --> jab shield pressure is good against everyone except for the few characters with amazingly fast OoS options (ie MK/Marth/Bowser/GW?)
Works well against Oli, especially at the back of the shield cause usmash won't reach (assuming you're spacing properly) and he can't shieldgrab your jab mixups.

I agree with everything DeLux said. Mixing up jab with cancels, tilts, dash attack, grab, running away/running through Oli and dsmash (with the grabs, running and dsmash being used less often than the rest) is really important.

Spaced grounded sideB pressure is very good. Fully charged laser --> spaced sideB is even better pressure.

 

[Dakpo]

I got Up smashed everytime I tried bair to Jab

 

[infiniteV115]

Then you weren't spacing it properly.
Or you were spacing it properly at the front of his shield but you got hit with a yellow usmash.
Or you jab1'd his shield and he waited for you to not do anything afterwards and then usmashed while you were just sitting there without a hitbox.

 

[Dakpo]

Then you weren't spacing it properly.
Or you were spacing it properly at the front of his shield but you got hit with a yellow usmash.
Or you jab1'd his shield and he waited for you to not do anything afterwards and then usmashed while you were just sitting there without a hitbox.

If you jab his shield, then you frame trap yourself. There is no escape

 

[DeLux]

Have you tried mixing up between:

Bair > Run away option (dash/flip jump) to make him inclined to chase after you and drop his shield and then start jabbing after you notice him chasing? Even on front of shield I've made it work

Also: I do this thing with MK where I kinda just walk around and spaced ftilt shields and then try to time ftilt 2/3 for when I think they'll shield drop. I'm REALLY good at this for one reason or another, not sure why. I do the same thing with ZSS jab on Olimar, but admittedly you play against more Olimar than I do in this MU as most of my experience comes from living with Feeno and then really low tier Olimar players. However I did notice when you played the MU at Hype2 that I am more willing to just ***** out Bair for days as a spacing tool against Olimar while you try to mix things up with other options and keep it fresher.

Barring that actually working though, I'd defer to what you say as being right since as I mentioned I'd go ICs/Falco before I went ZSS in this MU. Just thought I might pitch in since I lived with an Olimar for a year, 6 months of which I started extensively using ZSS. I'm not as battle experienced as some of you guys otherwise >_>

 

[Dakpo]

Have you tried mixing up between:

Bair > Run away option (dash/flip jump) to make him inclined to chase after you and drop his shield and then start jabbing after you notice him chasing? Even on front of shield I've made it work

Also: I do this thing with MK where I kinda just walk around and spaced ftilt shields and then try to time ftilt 2/3 for when I think they'll shield drop. I'm REALLY good at this for one reason or another, not sure why. I do the same thing with ZSS jab on Olimar, but admittedly you play against more Olimar than I do in this MU as most of my experience comes from living with Feeno and then really low tier Olimar players. However I did notice when you played the MU at Hype2 that I am more willing to just ***** out Bair for days as a spacing tool against Olimar while you try to mix things up with other options and keep it fresher.

Barring that actually working though, I'd defer to what you say as being right since as I mentioned I'd go ICs/Falco before I went ZSS in this MU. Just thought I might pitch in since I lived with an Olimar for a year, 6 months of which I started extensively using ZSS. I'm not as battle experienced as some of you guys otherwise >_>

Great, now finhoe is going to drop by the discussion because of name search >__>
But yea I play Dentfree and Finhoe every week and I'm constantly learning more about the match up. I'll try doing weird jab mix ups, I need to learn how to jab cancel efficiently

 

[NickRiddle]

How to kill Olimar? I always do fine until the kill. Will the problem fix itself now that I don't stale bair?

 

[DeLux]

No namesearch if I can help it

And Dakpo, I typically don't worry too much about Jab Cancelling on Olimar since the Jab string goes through (minus sdi things). The main thing is to focus on that hitting that 9 frameish window that you know they'll be grabbing or usmashing (or 7 frame window they drop their shield). Whether that's Jab 1, 2, or 3 shouldn't matter too much. The only annoying thing is if you're too close and too late you can pikmin rocket the usmash which is kinda stupid. However, what I've noticed is that there are two types of people: one's that are stubborn with shield and one's that panic. If you can use jab to annoy them into being really stubborn into staying in their shield, it then opens up things like Jab > Run away Pivot grab. And when you grab Olimar out of his grab animation, it's like the most win thing of all time because Olimar's deserve it. The more fun is the group that starts panicking and picks the defensive shield options even though they are in the "advantage" situaiton. They might also start doing things out of frustration like trying to spot dodge or roll behind you anytime you Bair their shield to try to avoid jab. Those get the dash attack punish or dsmash reads

Use Pikmin to refresh your moves NR! If you do it right, you can be left with all your moves to kill.

I used to go as far as if I grabbed at around 90-100, I would just pummel as many times as possible to force ground break and then full jab string the Olimar to refresh moves, but then I started letting Olimar's camp game do that for me

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm usually killing with bair/2nd hit fair/sideB.
Yes DeLux that was part of what I was talking about (mixing up ZSS' jab timings like MK's ftilt) to catch them off guard, alongside simply holding A to go to jab2 and then let go, jab1/jab2 -->jab1/run away (-->pivot nB/sideB)/run through and pivot grab/standing grab/low angled ftilt/dash attack/dtilt/dsmash

THIS IS THE MU WHERE WE NEED TO LEARN TO DOMINATE CQC.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I apologize for not having... well much of any experience in this matchup at all, haha. WhyBeHim was the main ZSS player I'd be able to play, and I didn't even play his that often.

That said, Lux's posts have been filled with far less misconceptions than I normally see when people talk about Olimar. I'd imagine his ex-roomate is to partially thank, haha. I'll lurk around to see if I notice anything, or until stage picks and ban discussion starts rolling.

 

[Dakpo]

I'd imagine his ex-roomate is to partially thank, .

I play his ex roomate every week now

 

[DeLux]

Yo you quit though...

 

[Dakpo]

Yo you quit though...

I quit tournaments. I still play very often

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Unless anyone has any objections, I'll close this out and keep it at -1.

 

[NickRiddle]

-2 ...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

NR, is that intellectual honesty? I mean no disrespect but you lost due to inexperience, all of florida got rolled by denti P

 

[NickRiddle]

I don't actually know. I'd need to do it again.

 

[infiniteV115]

And again and again and again lol
It's not -2, it's just that Oli's flowchart is really effective when you have no idea what to do against it.
Same reason I get bodied by Snakes, I don't know how to not get ftilted and shieldgrabbed.

 

[Denti]

NR, is that intellectual honesty? I mean no disrespect but you lost due to inexperience, all of florida got rolled by denti P

I don't know the MU either

 

[Exceladon City]

And again and again and again lol
It's not -2, it's just that Oli's flowchart is really effective when you have no idea what to do against it.
Same reason I get bodied by Snakes, I don't know how to not get ftilted and shieldgrabbed.

I'm going to assume jab, spotdodge, dtilt and Dsmash option selects are how you get in and around Olimar?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I don't know the MU either

You have eyes, yes?

Try reading.

 

[infiniteV115]

Spotdodge isn't really that good. Fsmash eats through it super easy.
Lol @ Denti not knowing the ZSS MU

Also SFP not all of Florida got bodied by Denti, Shaky beat him <3

 

[fkacyan]

Oli is def -2 at least, because he's a short character who can sit in shield and force approaches we don't really have into bull****.

NE has Dabuz / Blackwaltz / more Olimars I can't remember because so many people up here, jeez.

EDIT: @infinite, it's not his flowchart, so much as there is no spacing at which, with him grounded, we press a button first and don't get punished for pressing it.

 

[Dakpo]

After playing the match up a lot recently, I would have to say -1. It's only -1 if you know the match up perfectly though. If you are slightly inexperienced its -2 easy. I'm 100% sure none of the Zss could be Denti in tournament atm. This is definitely one of our worst match ups. Olimar has every tool to shut down our metagame (besides Pivot grab). We literally hope we can get a gimp every game to win. No gimp= we lose

 

[NickRiddle]

-1 = unwinnable now I guess.
Denti, I know you're in this thread. MM at Apex, ZSS vs. Olimar.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't feel like it's unwinnable, ZSS is at a significant advantage at close-range (ESPECIALLY when behind Oli), and when Oli's in the air (usmash is really good, uair not so much).
Not to mention the suitpieces. Without proper suitpiece play this MU is easily -2.

 

[Dakpo]

I don't feel like it's unwinnable, ZSS is at a significant advantage at close-range (ESPECIALLY when behind Oli), and when Oli's in the air (usmash is really good, uair not so much).
Not to mention the suitpieces. Without proper suitpiece play this MU is easily -2.

Also, Olimar can abuse Suit Pieces much more than we can

 

[Denti]

-1 = unwinnable now I guess.
Denti, I know you're in this thread. MM at Apex, ZSS vs. Olimar.

This would make for our 3rd MM, Justin.

Also, Olimar can abuse Suit Pieces much more than we can

And this. <3 No one understands my love unlike Dakpo

 

[NickRiddle]

This would make for our 3rd MM, Justin.



And this. <3 No one understands my love unlike Dakpo

Yes, but if one is actually planned, I can get a game plan. /johns

 

[Denti]

Well, guess ill have to plan for extra down smash reads.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Seems you guy still have stuff to say about this one so I'm leaving it open for a bit. The Marth discussion has concluded. ICs is up now.

 

[fkacyan]

I don't feel like it's unwinnable, ZSS is at a significant advantage at close-range (ESPECIALLY when behind Oli), and when Oli's in the air (usmash is really good, uair not so much).
Not to mention the suitpieces. Without proper suitpiece play this MU is easily -2.

How do you even get into close range?

This more or less requires that Olimar lets go of his controller.

Not that this is even true, his jab / tilts are actually fantastic and you're underrating the hell out of them.

 

[Dakpo]

I don't feel like it's unwinnable, ZSS is at a significant advantage at close-range (ESPECIALLY when behind Oli), and when Oli's in the air (usmash is really good, uair not so much).
Not to mention the suitpieces. Without proper suitpiece play this MU is easily -2.

Just out of curiosity, have you played denti, da fuz, finoooo, or rich brownies?

 

[infiniteV115]

I've played Dabuz twice (MM and bracket set at IMPULSE), Tin Man multiple times and Logic once (MM at Revival of Salt)

I got destroyed in my MM against Dabuz but I feel like I did a lot better during the bracket set afterwards. Both were 3-0 though...
I beat Logic at RoS
I have a losing record against Tin Man overall but I've been doing a lot better against him recently.