Match-up Discussions: Marth

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS Match-up Discussion: Marth

In this battle of the broads, which of Brawl's viable female characters comes out on top?

SWF Official Match-up Chart 2.0 says: 0
We say: 0

Formal discussion concluded on 19/11/2012.

 

[C.J.]

Liessss, SWF MU chart says even =)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Liessss, SWF MU chart says even =)

Thanks, corrected.

 

[clowsui]

I think this is pretty even tbh. Like Marth and ZSS wreck each other in trap scenarios, and in the neutral game neither character has a significant advantage. Marth's movement is better overall but ZSS effective range + frame trap ability is a problem for Marth.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Mr.R and me think it's -1 against Zss.
I remember that Leon thinks the same, but not sure.

The problem is Marth can make strong pressure and juggling. /i will write later more maybe

 

[infiniteV115]

Marth has the edge (no pun intended) in ledge traps, offstage game and can trap landings more reliably.
When both characters are grounded I feel like ZSS controls the ground better. She's also better at juggling, and while her landing traps aren't as reliable they provide a much higher reward than Marth's. Lasers are also surprisingly good at hindering Marth's approaches. She's also better at killing imo.

If the Marth isn't on point (ie spaced and timed properly) with his landing aerials then ZSS can shield/PS --> utilt/usmash/uair, but if the Marth is consistently on point with them (uh...even Ramin wasn't consistently on point with them when he played me so I guess this is unrealistic) then...there isn't really much ZSS can do about it.

Marth does well vs suitpieces on the ground, not so well when he's in the air.

Even imo, but it really depends on how much weight you assign to each of these things

 

[PEACE7]

I disagree with ZSS being better at killing. Its a -1 or even. Marth can gimp her really well he is also very quick and is great at pressure. I also feel that if the Marth is a smart aggro kind of player zss will have lots of trouble landing hits and at lower percents marth has some nasty strings that rack up a very decent amount of damage and if the zss doesn't react properly could lead to early deaths. ZSS's dtilt seems to be good in this mu, dash attack is bad as an approach here she will eat an upB well not only here I mean its good but I do feel like a lot of people even tho they get punished for approaching with it they keep doing it. Dashing away to reverse nb works well if they are chasing you. Read the Marth's airdodging patterns and punish accordingly upsmash i think is good for this.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

we can see it is -1, if we look at results. so there is no need of big theory crafting, if we just want to know the number.
in Europe Marth beats Zss. Mr.R beat me the last tournament. I beat Leon, but he beat a lot times before.

In America Salem and V115 got beaten by Mr.R.
Did Mikehaze ever play a good Zss, what was the result? Same thing with Nick, did he play a good Marth?

The last Top Marth is Mikeneko from Japan. I won on the first day a seriously, but the next days he got better in this mu and i felt like he build a slight advantage in friendlies against me.

this is all i know, and everything speaks for -1.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

extremely circumstantial evidence there tho

even

 

[C.J.]

If you land a dsmash on his shield your eating an upB.

No, just no. ZSS's dsmash isn't -5 on shield. If ZSS just holds shield that will NEVER happen. I've tried it vs NR god knows how many times. It doesn't work.

In America Salem and V115 got beaten by Mr.R.
Did Mikehaze ever play a good Zss, what was the result? Same thing with Nick, did he play a good Marth?

NR beat MH at MLG in 2010

 

[PEACE7]

Alright my mistake thanks C.J

 

[infiniteV115]

I suppose the results in Europe are fair game (ie Quik vs Ramin & Leon) but I have like 0 Marth experience, dunno how much Salem has.

And yeah he can't upB you for dsmashing your shield unless he powershields it and it wasn't charged. And it's -4 on block when uncharged btw.

Cool didn't know NR beat MH at MLG

 

[C.J.]

Alright my mistake thanks C.J

My god I wish it did. It's literally ONE frame off
/madmadmad

I suppose the results in Europe are fair game (ie Quik vs Ramin & Leon) but I have like 0 Marth experience, dunno how much Salem has.

And yeah he can't upB you for dsmashing your shield unless he powershields it and it wasn't charged. And it's -4 on block when uncharged btw.

Cool didn't know NR beat MH at MLG

Stupid move. Why couldn't dsmash be one frame worse one shield... just one =(

And yeah, it was a match everyone wanted to see but never got uploaded lol. Kel just came out and said he forgot to upload it/might go back and look for it.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well seeing as how he has to use a jump-cancelled upB, that means you have to add at least 1 frame of jumpsquat

So ideally it comes out on frame 6, which is 2 frames too slow

 

[C.J.]

I always forget about JC being +1

 

[Shaya]

If dsmash has actually hit you though (partial stale) shielding is free-er.

 

[Dakpo]

There is no way this is in martha's favor. We both have too much perks on each other. I love this match up, and have immense experience in it. This match up taught me how to exploit out of shield options

 

[Dakpo]

Did Mikehaze ever play a good Zss, what was the result? Same thing with Nick, did he play a good Marth?
.

I had bad DI and its an old video, but I still felt like they were good matches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smhVDIGUpKI&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oISE5QLUpkk

 

[NickRiddle]

It's 0.
When forward tilt is a reliable move in a MU, we can't lose it.
That's why Wario is a 0 for me now.

 

[C.J.]

Goddamn AAs

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

To be fair quik, Marth beats everyone in europe.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

I had bad DI and its an old video, but I still felt like they were good matches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smhVDIGUpKI&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oISE5QLUpkk

ah ofc i forgot you, sorry!

Riddle: ftilt?

SFP: doesn't matter. i was talking about ZSS vs. Marth, and in America it seems, he also wins the most time

 

[Dakpo]

ah ofc i forgot you, sorry!

Riddle: ftilt?

SFP: doesn't matter. i was talking about ZSS vs. Marth, and in America it seems, he also wins the most time

I really don't see marths doing well in the US. They all get wrecked by MK

Also nick...F tilt? vids please

 

[NickRiddle]

High f-tilt is an amazing AA vs. Wario and Marth.

 

[Dakpo]

Maybe wario..But cant marth out-space that move like its childsplay?

 

[C.J.]

On prediction, yeah.

/goes to find conversation I had w/ NR about this...


NR
Marth bad.
Anti-airs 2 strong.

10:17pm
C.J.
Why couldn't Marth bair w/o needing to turn around
He'd be SO much better
Completely opposite arc from fair, stops AAs that stop fair (as a result of fair's arc that is)

10:17pm
NR
I iknow.
Marth's fair being one of the few moves in the game with misleading frame data.
SO SLOW IN FRONT~

10:19pm
C.J.
ughhh
I knowww
I hate when people go "lol, you can't PS it, it's frame 4!"
No, doesn't work that way.


Basically, despite what the frame data says, Marth's fair is a much bigger commitment than it seems. He has to commit to the approach, move forward in the air, input the aerial, and wait for fair to come through the arc. ZSS's ftilt just sticks her leg out there and stuffs the approach really hard.

 

[Shaya]

Neutral air.

 

[DeLux]

I have a really hard time with this MU >_>

 

[infiniteV115]

Rising retreating tippered fair on shield is annoying

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Rising retreating tippered fair on shield is annoying

Mr R used to use this a lot


If it's SH, you can punish with a quick usmash or uair

if it's full hop, be intimidating enough for him to retreat (i.e. trot forward) then shoot paralyzer on landing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Note about punishing short hop aerials with uair against ANY character:

Make sure they are damaged enough that sh uair is safe on hit, lots of times it isn't in these scenarios (for example, uair hits, but you get hit with another fair and reset).

For aerial punishes I prefer usmash at low percents and uair at higher percents.

 

[Dakpo]

Note about punishing short hop aerials with uair against ANY character:

Make sure they are damaged enough that sh uair is safe on hit, lots of times it isn't in these scenarios (for example, uair hits, but you get hit with another fair and reset).

For aerial punishes I prefer usmash at low percents and uair at higher percents.

This is really high level advice. I'm always still trying to use this. I hate giving up the punish

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS is a character that can combo until like 90% meaning the base kb on some moves is gonna be low. It is pretty important to know stuff like that. ZSS players still dash attack snake at 0 lol

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Unless anyone has any objections, I'll close this out and keep it at 0. I recognize Quik's opinion on the match-up and his experience but he's outnumbered in opinion, and the players that disagree with him are very good. We'll get back to this match-up soon, to see if anyone's thoughts have changed. If no one objects I will close this thread and start the next discussions tomorrow.

Character suggestions?