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Match-up Discussions: Ice Climbers

Joined
Mar 17, 2009
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New York, NY
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2013 is the year of paralyzer

You heard it here first

Paralyzer is a completely broken move. It's 100% safe, forces a reaction, has advantage on shield at close range, and most importantly, doesn't place the guy hit into an aerial state.

There are very, very few moves in Brawl that don't launch into the air for a brief second after they're hit. Ledge slip silliness is only the beginning.

So many possibilities.
 

quiKsilverItaly

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
268
2013 is the year of paralyzer

You heard it here first

Paralyzer is a completely broken move. It's 100% safe, forces a reaction, has advantage on shield at close range, and most importantly, doesn't place the guy hit into an aerial state.
i just started to use it more, but aren't you distending it?

it isn't 100% safe, when the enemy powershields it and he got near enough to you.
there are also some moves, that eat up her paralyzer. if metaknight approaches with nado and zss uses paralyzer at the same time, zss gets easily hit.
the start lag is also big, zss needs always to be careful, when she uses it (for example the enemy can rush into you, before the gun wasn't used).
 
Joined
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Pretty sure this isn't true. How close are we talkin?
Err.. I actually meant long range. I dunno, I had a brain fart when typing it.

I think if it's far enough away you get +1 for baby or +2 for charged. Salem actually uses this a lot, he did grab after will blocked a fully charged paralyzer once in a match vs Will.

My bad.
 
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Yeah but he said the laser has to hit their shield on the very last frame that it's out.
Well, there are actually some situations that you can guarantee this, such as in a reset situation at range. Also, you don't need the full advantage to get the grab so it's not a frame perfect situation.
 

blacktwins13

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Aug 11, 2011
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Blacktwins13
DeLux, can you comment on the timing of the CG?

To clarify, I don't think difficulty in CGing is at all a point in our favor since the ICs should be able to CG everyone consistently for the purposes of discussion. But I am curious as to if it's harder than other characters or what makes it hard. I've heard a lot of stuff, for example that it's just like the timing of MK, that it's slightly different from MK and other lightweights, and that it's like Lucas, but I've never gotten a "straight" answer.
[7:53:11 AM] Evan: can you elaborate on the cg timing of zss?
[7:53:19 AM] Evan: i've heard different tuff
[7:53:22 AM] Evan: stuff
[7:53:29 AM] Evan: that it's just like MK
[7:53:33 AM] Evan: slightly different from MK
[7:53:35 AM] Evan: just like lucas
[7:53:35 AM] Evan: etc
[8:01:34 AM] CoF DeLux: I don't know
[8:01:38 AM] CoF DeLux: i tripless CG ZSS now
[8:01:45 AM] CoF DeLux: the bthrow is the hard part
[8:01:53 AM] CoF DeLux: since her hurtbox during the bthrow animation is wonky
[8:02:02 AM] Evan: oh
[8:02:13 AM] CoF DeLux: everyone else uses standard CGs
[8:02:17 AM] Evan: Ahhh
[8:02:23 AM] Evan: So Lucas is not different either?
[8:02:23 AM] CoF DeLux: but if you want to know the timing
[8:02:40 AM] CoF DeLux: you can just add two to five frames
[8:02:50 AM] CoF DeLux: of the hitbox out on the throw animation
[8:02:58 AM] CoF DeLux: depending on percent
[8:05:21 AM] Evan: Ahh
[8:05:22 AM] Evan: ok
[8:05:41 AM] CoF DeLux: without looking at their frame data
[8:05:54 AM] CoF DeLux: I know that ZSS and MK are like 2 off of each other in launch resistance
[8:05:58 AM] CoF DeLux: so their timing is probably very similar
[8:06:47 AM] CoF DeLux: that isn't a big jump iirc correclty
[8:06:55 AM] CoF DeLux: until you get to Marth and Falco/Olimar
[8:07:10 AM] Evan: so why do people have so much trouble CGing her?
[8:07:15 AM] CoF DeLux: because nobody practices her
[8:07:16 AM] Evan: every time i watch ics vs zss they be droppin'
[8:07:20 AM] Evan: oh
[8:07:21 AM] Evan: lol
[8:07:22 AM] CoF DeLux: she doesn't appear on random
[8:07:29 AM] CoF DeLux: I know before I played Dakpo
[8:07:38 AM] CoF DeLux: I had never played a ZSS in tournament
[8:07:46 AM] CoF DeLux: I had never practiced CGing a ZSS
[8:08:05 AM] CoF DeLux: and just more or less tried to learn it as i played
I agree with delux and paris on this quote in most parts. the cg on :zss: is weird for me when ever i do either f-throw/b-throw, d-throw/b-throw but there's one throw that's an exception to her being cg'd. now idk what you guys consider of the consectutive f throw like how me or myollnir does it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXELThrL7vE#t=27s) I personally think f-throw is pretty much the same frame rate for most if not all the characters and the easiest to do, but even if it the frame rate for constant f throw is different for each character; its not by a huge margin either (or unless spacing is dependent on the grab) i could be wrong in this part due to not alot of exp with :zss: and im sure V115 would say vice-versa ( <Feel free to correct me on this V) but i say that using f throw is the same for all mu's

Now for how the other throws are like: I agree delux has a point in the cg sort of feeling like mk but i disagree to it being it similar to :lucas: i feel its more of :ness: or a :diddy: replacing :lucas: in that part

as for the mu, i'd like to say its even if both sides know the mu, but im gonna agree to it being +1 :zss: because of armor pieces (up-tilt/up-air dismantles our side-b) and +1 for :popo: if we can get rid of the armor pieces quickly without too much damage taken and space ourselves when when approaching carefully.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,311
It's definitely not similar in timing to Lucas which I never said in the post
Although the wonky hurtbox animation on bthrow stuff is actually pretty similar.

FYI Fthrow timing is the same for every character, but spacing is going to be different based on hurtbox in throw animation.
 
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