Match-up Discussions: Ice Climbers

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS Match-up Discussion: Ice Climbers

The threat of the Climbers' grabs are menacing, and ZSS has tools to stay safe on shield. Is it enough to avoid gettin' JV'd?

SWF Official Match-up Chart 2.0 says: +1
We say:

Formal discussion in progress.

 

[Dakpo]

+1 is still good, nothing has changed. Armor pieces destroy them! We can run hard, plus we are difficult to chain grab

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, I'm doing match-ups here that are unlikely to change in the next list so that we don't have to immediately re-discuss for new ratios afterwards. What I'm more interested in these threads is "how-to" type stuff. What to do, what to avoid, how to play. That kind of thing.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm fairly certain ZSS is really easy to cg...
And I'm not good enough at this MU yet to say much but +1 is fine with me

 

[Dakpo]

I'm fairly certain ZSS is really easy to cg...
And I'm not good enough at this MU yet to say much but +1 is fine with me

Ask any IC main who they practice chaingrabbing the least...one character can't be found using random ;D

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

IIRC, the timing for CGing ZSS is kinda similar to the timing for MK, but is just slightly different enough that it can be tricky to have the muscle memory down for it.

 

[fkacyan]

I get the feeling that nobody actually knows the fundamentals of ICs outside of the CG, how to avoid getting grabbed, and, in the case of ICs, how to grab.

I would say the MU is +1 against ICs who go for the grab because ZSS has amazing prevent tools because of their desynced inputs, but against an ICs that's willing to camp us... Our approach tools aren't exactly amazing, and they have VERY strong walling.

Of course, we need somebody to actually play like that first.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

it's one of the most fun moments, when IC get seperated and i **** the poor Nana, while Popo is trying to safe her

it feels like +1
but to be honest, i don't have really much experience in this matchup

 

[NickRiddle]

Thio, what are ICs walls that are strong?
Pretty sure we outrange them.

 

[C.J.]

Nope. Desync blizzard and grab for 0-death.
+1 IC

 

[fkacyan]

Thio, what are ICs walls that are strong?
Pretty sure we outrange them.

With what, sideB the longest startup move in the world?

 

[PEACE7]

Does her nair trade with or beat blizzard?

 

[DeLux]

Vinnie thinks it's even. I've seen Esam say it's in the +2 range. I think it's +1, but I've only played YBM and Dakpo's ZSS in tournament. Dakpo made it look +3 against me, but admittedly I was unprepared to play so as an ICs player I feel like I got hit by things I shouldn't have so I deserved to get styled on. After doing prep work and some MU specific analysis on my own to abuse, I did much better against YBM

Playing this MU from the other side, Bair, Dsmash, Side Special, Flip Jump, Uair make this MU pretty easy imo. As long as there's a platform should be no problems. Our mobility is too good.

 

[NickRiddle]

With what, sideB the longest startup move in the world?

Is their wall blizzard?
The second longest startup move in the world?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

no its okay nick its not like blizzards for walling purposes are a dumb commitment to make against zss

not like that at all

 

[NickRiddle]

If they're not walling with Blizzard, we have no problem hitting them for stuff.

 

[Dakpo]

blizzard wall? Umm Neutral special doesn't go through that?

 

[infiniteV115]

It does
So does sideB
And grab

 

[ZeroN92]

With proper spacing this Mu doesnt feel bad at all. Feels like we have the advantage. +1 or 0 at the very least no more no less imo

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

DeLux, can you comment on the timing of the CG?

To clarify, I don't think difficulty in CGing is at all a point in our favor since the ICs should be able to CG everyone consistently for the purposes of discussion. But I am curious as to if it's harder than other characters or what makes it hard. I've heard a lot of stuff, for example that it's just like the timing of MK, that it's slightly different from MK and other lightweights, and that it's like Lucas, but I've never gotten a "straight" answer.

 

[DeLux]

[7:53:11 AM] Evan: can you elaborate on the cg timing of zss?
[7:53:19 AM] Evan: i've heard different tuff
[7:53:22 AM] Evan: stuff
[7:53:29 AM] Evan: that it's just like MK
[7:53:33 AM] Evan: slightly different from MK
[7:53:35 AM] Evan: just like lucas
[7:53:35 AM] Evan: etc
[8:01:34 AM] CoF DeLux: I don't know
[8:01:38 AM] CoF DeLux: i tripless CG ZSS now
[8:01:45 AM] CoF DeLux: the bthrow is the hard part
[8:01:53 AM] CoF DeLux: since her hurtbox during the bthrow animation is wonky
[8:02:02 AM] Evan: oh
[8:02:13 AM] CoF DeLux: everyone else uses standard CGs
[8:02:17 AM] Evan: Ahhh
[8:02:23 AM] Evan: So Lucas is not different either?
[8:02:23 AM] CoF DeLux: but if you want to know the timing
[8:02:40 AM] CoF DeLux: you can just add two to five frames
[8:02:50 AM] CoF DeLux: of the hitbox out on the throw animation
[8:02:58 AM] CoF DeLux: depending on percent
[8:05:21 AM] Evan: Ahh
[8:05:22 AM] Evan: ok
[8:05:41 AM] CoF DeLux: without looking at their frame data
[8:05:54 AM] CoF DeLux: I know that ZSS and MK are like 2 off of each other in launch resistance
[8:05:58 AM] CoF DeLux: so their timing is probably very similar
[8:06:47 AM] CoF DeLux: that isn't a big jump iirc correclty
[8:06:55 AM] CoF DeLux: until you get to Marth and Falco/Olimar
[8:07:10 AM] Evan: so why do people have so much trouble CGing her?
[8:07:15 AM] CoF DeLux: because nobody practices her
[8:07:16 AM] Evan: every time i watch ics vs zss they be droppin'
[8:07:20 AM] Evan: oh
[8:07:21 AM] Evan: lol
[8:07:22 AM] CoF DeLux: she doesn't appear on random
[8:07:29 AM] CoF DeLux: I know before I played Dakpo
[8:07:38 AM] CoF DeLux: I had never played a ZSS in tournament
[8:07:46 AM] CoF DeLux: I had never practiced CGing a ZSS
[8:08:05 AM] CoF DeLux: and just more or less tried to learn it as i played

 

[fkacyan]

blizzard wall? Umm Neutral special doesn't go through that?

And if you get close enough then they stop walling and do other stuff.

Letting you hit Nana through Popo's shield to land a grab at low percents into a CG, for example.

All of our spacing moves have predictable, easy-to-see spacings and startups. We can deal with ICs well if we manage to string Nana into a position where Popo is forced to do stupid things to save her, but the risk/reward in this matchup is skewed to all hell. It's definitely not, like, OMG NEVER WIN EVER because it would take an experienced ICs to not run into issues with sideB / dsmash, but it's not really a solid win for ZSS either.

 

[NickRiddle]

Rising fB doesn't get you grabbed.

 

[fkacyan]

Rising fB doesn't get you grabbed.

Does get you uaired.

 

[NickRiddle]

Hit Popo, no uair followup.

 

[DeLux]

What happens then if you wait until you're hit by two Uairs and are now out of solo dthrow percents?

Then the strategy of letting them hit Nana to grab with Popo is now invalidated

 

[NickRiddle]

Shh, that never happens.

 

[fkacyan]

What happens then if you wait until you're hit by two Uairs and are now out of solo dthrow percents?

Then the strategy of letting them hit Nana to grab with Popo is now invalidated

OK, then you're forced to approach, which is not a position you generally want to be in with slow-startup spacing moves and unsafe on block aerials.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually I think even nair is pretty safe on block against ICs because they are pushed back, if it's spaced well.

Not that it matters much.

 

[DeLux]

???Unsafe on block aerials???

Bair why

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

i fair moving into ic's and make sure i hit their shield with the first hit then i use fsmash to punish their whiffed punish

 

[infiniteV115]

Dash attack --> sideB at low percents trucombo

 

[fkacyan]

???Unsafe on block aerials???

Bair why

Don't look at the pure frame data. You have to look at the entire moveset as a whole.

What options do you have after bair? Think about it positionally. We don't have the lateral mobility nor the fallspeed to make proper use of bair as a spacing tool the way, say, Wolf does, in a lot of matchups.

The risk/reward for putting yourself in the air and that close to ICs shields is pretty wonky in ICs favor.

 

[DeLux]

Having done the MU from both sides against multiple high level players for both characters, I will reiterate:

bair why

 

[1PokeMastr]

I assume, because if Zss spaces a retreating Bair and lands on the ground without Bair's landing lag.
"Perfect Bair" or whatever.
Ice Climbers can't grab it on block because of their terrible traction.
Which technically makes it safe on block.
Unless they run in -> Ps. Then it becomes unsafe.

 

[infiniteV115]

According to DeLux, a perfectly autocancelled bair is -5 on block.
Meaning if we buffer a downB it's impossible to shieldgrab.

If it's -6 however, then it's unsafe.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

if youre a ****** who doesnt know what spacing is

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Doesn't bair push them back a bit which is what makes it safe, not the frame data?

 

[DeLux]

It is both things! BAIR WHY

In the event an IC goes for a shield grab on Bair, when (not if) it whiffs, as longs as you don't turn around jab or turn around dsmash, they are kinda going to get rocked

This is a job for...

DTILT!

Yay

Actually, you can dsmash it, but they'll powershield it after whiffing the grab most likely based on frame data, so it just sort of resets the situation (although you'd tend to Dsmash hit on Nana at that point so maybe it's a good thing). At that point it would be really percent dependent as far as safety goes

Dsmash is sort of the hard read because it would lose to a shield drop dash grab. Dtilt covers both options and you get to juggle them for up to 8 minutes on most rulessets.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

I also like to use grab or dash attack, if the enemy thinks he can shieldgrab retreating bair